- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of Think Tank with Steve Adubato has been provided by The Healthcare Foundation of New Jersey.

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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi everyone.

I'm Steve Adubato.

We kick off the program with Charles Graeber, the journalist and author of a compelling book called, "The Good Nurse."

And Charles, first of all, welcome.

- Thanks Steve.

- It's a book about Charles Cullen.

I'm gonna read a little bit from the back of the book that puts things in perspective.

This won't be long, I promise.

After his 2003 arrest, registered nurse Charles Cullen was quickly dubbed the Angel of Death by the media.

But Cullen was no mercy killer, nor was he a simple monster.

He was a husband, beloved father, best friend and celebrated caregiver.

Implicated in the deaths of as many as 400 patients, he was perhaps the most prolific serial killer in American history.

Charles, what the heck caused you to be so fascinated by Cullen and when did it start?

- That's a great question.

You know, I wasn't really fascinated with him initially.

I was at first fascinated by the fact that he was in jail attempting to donate a kidney from jail, being prevented from donating that kidney by the very upset family members of his victims who didn't wanna see him playing God from behind bars as he had with their own family.

I thought that was a very strange situation and he wasn't speaking to anybody.

But then he started talking to me.

And once we started talking I understood that the fairly simple story that I'd, that I think the world had understood about a misguided mercy killer that had been caught by a system designed to catch him, it was actually something much more complicated and that began a seven year journey for me.

- And Netflix picked this up.

Netflix film, check that out.

But the book is compelling in a whole, for a whole different set of reasons.

It goes into much greater depth.

You know what I'm curious about as I was watching the Netflix documentary and reading through the book, so Cullen goes from hospital to hospital to hospital to hospital and he's proactively killing patients with poison, correct?

- That's right.

With medicines that he's repurposed as, as poisons, yeah.

- And he worked with several frontline professionals and one of whom, Amy Loughren, which we're gonna talk about in a second, a really good nurse, a great nurse, a real hero, if you will.

Many of the hospitals that he worked in, did they or did they not share the information as to why Cullen was let go from their hospital which could have potentially flagged him much earlier?

- That's right.

He was, you know, the question with Cullen is why wasn't he caught earlier?

- How many hospitals, by the way, over how many years?

- Nine hospitals and a nursing home over a 16 year nursing career.

And he was killing throughout that time.

And each time Cullen was, well, fired or allowed to resign and each time he was given neutral or positive references regardless of what he'd done at those institutions.

And so he would just move down the road or in some cases across the state line between New Jersey and Pennsylvania and start all over again.

- Amy Loughren worked shoulder to shoulder with Cullen, correct?

- That's right.

She did at the last hospital they worked at.

- And liked him?

- Oh yeah.

They were good friends.

Amy Loughren, while she had a relationship with Cullen, she was the one who stepped up and said, "Hey, wait a minute, something's seriously wrong here."

And went to the law enforcement authorities, correct?

- Well, there were whistle-blowers throughout Cullen's career, men and women, mostly women who came forward and said exactly that, there's something wrong.

We're seeing an increasing, an incredible number of codes over our shifts where there were none or very few before.

Something's wrong and this guy's wrong.

It's this guy doing it.

Amy was a little different.

She, you know, worked so closely with him and depended on him so much that she, I think she was blind to it until detectives that were on the case finally- - Right.

- Had to really put the numbers in front of her and say, "Did these look right to you?"

And she was really resistant to betray a friend.

Frankly, she, you know, she's a fierce protector and Cullen is a guy that comes across as needing to be protected.

So she thought she was doing the right thing by her fellow nurse until she realized perhaps she was shielding a serial killer.

And then she needed to figure out for herself what was true.

And if this was true, stop it.

- How much time did you spend with Cullen?

- I spent years interviewing him.

You know, whenever I could get into jail, I followed him to his sentencings.

I ended up seeing him finally in Trenton where he will be for the rest of his life, maximum security there.

So, a lot of time.

- Did he ever, Charles, take responsibility and said, I, and just to simply say to you directly, "I did this, I killed these people."

- No, he would never say kill.

He didn't like to talk about murder.

He thought it was crass that we were interested in murder.

Like we- - Talking about it was crass.

- That's right, we were rubberneckers, you know, we're the ones with bad taste, gawking at an accident.

He did occasionally allude to feeling compelled to intervene or euphemisms like that.

And sometimes if we backed into a specific murder that I knew about, I could get details about that as long as we didn't have to put so careful a name on it.

So, you know, he's a person that needs to see himself as a victim or as a passive element.

He really blamed the system that passed him on over and over and over again.

And he considered himself to many extents to be a symptom of a sick system.

- But both things can be true at the same time, he could have been the most notorious serial killer in the history of the United States and also that the system broke down.

Forget about him for a second.

- That's right.

- To what degree do you believe the quote system broke down of sharing information, which in some cases, some of these hospitals, as I watched the documentary, read in the book, they were concerned about the potential economic implications of disclosing this because who wanted to build a new expansion, who had this new project?

And how could you raise capital if you said that someone was working in your hospital who was killing patients which was in fact the case?

Please.

- I mean, for everybody involved obviously a serial killer nurse on staff is a nightmare from the standpoint of protecting your corporation, that's a real threat to your corporation.

That brings lawsuits, that brings lack of reputation.

And what you see over and over again are administrators in many of the hospitals who were good administrators, just as Charlie Cullen was a good nurse, often they were good administrators in that they did a good job in the very narrow definition of their job which was to protect that institution as lawyers, as risk managers.

But what they didn't do was good.

They didn't do good by the patients that really, ultimately that system is there to protect.

So absolutely, it's a systemic breakdown.

- And in the book and in the documentary that I watched, there were certain officials certain administrators, were stopping others from blowing the whistle.

- Yeah, you know, hospitals are famously terrible at investigating crimes or problems within their own institution.

It's a complicated process anyway.

Medical murder is, you know, it's quiet.

It involves chemistry and paperwork, and you're dealing with people who are in a hospital because they're sick.

So they already have underlying health conditions.

It takes time and these are very cautious institutions.

They perceive like doctors are warriors, they don't perceive like cops.

So what you see is, you know, a culture that also doesn't want to believe they have a problem.

And I believe that's part, you know, there's a lot to be said for that because who in the world ever has their first thought be there's obviously a serial killer afoot and we're employing them.

You know, that's the last place you go.

But even when presented with empirical evidence, even when told by New Jersey Poison Control, you have a police matter, what didn't happen for a long time, it was not kicked up to the next level, was not kicked up to law enforcement, is not voluntarily given over to the DOH or a nursing board or something like that.

- Right.

- Those red flags are very slow to be risen.

- The book is called "The Good Nurse."

The good nurse here again is Amy Loughren.

There's a lot going on here.

Very complex stuff.

Charles Graeber, journalist and author of "The Good Nurse."

It's about a lot more than Charles Cullen.

Thank you so much.

We appreciate it, Charles.

- Thanks Steve.

Thanks for having me on.

- You got it.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

To watch more Think Tank with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We're now joined by Otis Rolley, Head of Philanthropy and Community Impact at Wells Fargo & CO. And President of the Wells Fargo Foundation.

Good to see you, Mr. Rolley.

- Really good to be here.

- Let me also disclose that Wells Fargo is a significant underwriter of our work at our not-for-profit production company.

Mr. Rolley talk about the work of the foundation and work of Wells Fargo particularly in not-for-profit organizations making a difference disproportionately in urban communities, please.

- Sure.

You know, we're just eager for our corporate foundation, one of the largest in the country to really help to address some systemic issues.

And so we target our investment, our philanthropic strategic investments and nonprofits that are focused in areas where we have expertise.

Small business and entrepreneurship, housing access and housing affordability and financial health.

- Yeah.

Some of those organizations include the African American Chamber of Commerce of New Jersey The Latina Entrepreneurship Training Series Program and New Jersey Community Capital Equitable Small Business Initiatives.

In these very challenging times, you know, three years into COVID, nonprofits, and we are one of them, not just fighting to stay relevant and alive but we're constantly raising money.

What have you seen in the not-for-profit community particularly in urban areas as it relates to their efforts to keep fundraising successful and allowing the organization to thrive?

- It has definitely been a challenging time particularly in light of the pandemic.

I think many nonprofits have had to really struggle not just in terms of fulfilling their mission in a difficult time but also being able to fund the mission.

So I think what we've seen the philanthropic community has really stepped up.

Fortunately, I think federal, state government, particularly during the pandemic, offered a lot of different grants and loans as well, because at the end of the day these small business, these nonprofits are small businesses.

- Absolutely.

- They employ tons of individuals.

They are dramatic and significant contributors to our overall health in terms of the economy.

And again, because we see small business and entrepreneurship as critical, not just to the health of New Jersey, but to the health of our nation, and it is a primary area of expertise for us, our foundation has tried to do a significant amount of outreach and support particularly during these trying times.

- Mr Rolley, you are from Jersey City originally.

- Born and raised.

- I'm a Newarker, born and raised.

I see a smile on your face as soon as I say Jersey City because?

- Well, because it was where I was raised it was where I was shaped.

It's one of the most diverse places actually in the United States.

I had the privilege of learning about culture and about the cornucopia that is humanity in Jersey City.

You know, the people who have invested in me, family, friends, etc.

It happened there.

And so I have a lot of love for my hometown and for my home state.

- I hear you.

You know, one of the organizations that you support, that Wells Fargo supports, that we're very aware of is a very important national initiative with local tentacles, if you will, and that's LISC.

The Local Initiative Support Corporation, LISC.

Why is LISC so important, particularly in urban communities?

- Well, you know, we are really careful in terms of who we choose to partner with because we understand as a foundation, there's a weird power dynamic there funder to fundee, right?

And so we try to make it very clear that no, it's a real partnership.

And LISC is one of those that really satisfied the due diligence not just in the state of New Jersey, but around the country.

They've been a real partner in community development and economic development, and that's because the local affiliates really have the ability to adjust and be flexible and meet the needs, the needs of the community that they serve.

And we just found them to be a phenomenal partner in the state of New Jersey.

They know the community, they have relationships there.

They understand how the only way that we're gonna be able to bridge that, that divide, that economic divide and and kind of reduce the racial wealth gap is by making key strategic investments in individuals and in communities.

And that aligns with the values of the Wells Fargo bank and the foundation.

- Mr. Rolley, where does, again, in these very challenging times, inflation is what it is, economic struggles that people face every day.

And even though the unemployment figures seem to be positive, those are statistics.

People's lives are much more complicated.

The reason I ask, that's the reason why I ask this question.

The place for employee volunteerism because people are saying very often it's like, well, you want me to volunteer?

I'm trying to keep my head above water trying to feed my family.

And now you're talking about volunteerism.

Talk about that.

It matters more than ever.

- It really does, because at the end of the day while our jobs provide us with the financial means to live, the living part of who we are is connecting to the other humans in our places of work, in our communities and our neighborhoods and we have long had a history of support for employee volunteerism.

We have over 250,000 employees, and we provide a couple of days off where we pay them to go and volunteer because we feel like it's an important connection.

It helps you to realize that the individuals who you are working for and with are truly your neighbors.

And so when you see the red shirts coming as we often when we volunteer, we're wearing our red jerseys or polo's, we see it as a critical part of our mission in being a real corporate citizen.

- You know, you talk about this from a corporate perspective but I'm curious about this before I let you go.

To what degree is the work you do highly personal for you?

- You know, I do see it as not just a job, but it's kinda a mission for me.

You know, I studied urban planning, urban studies with a concentration in housing and community economic development, and I've been blessed with the ability over the last 25 years of doing housing, community and economic development.

I'm really trying to bridge that divide and advance a sense of equity.

Some of the struggles that I had at Lincoln High School in, in Jersey City and seeing how a public school in Jersey City was not as supported in the way that some of our suburban neighbors were.

That struggle around the inequity has been deep and has really helped to inform a lot of the work that I do.

I'm so excited about the opportunity to advance an equity agenda at the Wells Fargo Foundation.

The bank values it, and that aligns with my personal values.

- Well said.

You've been listening to and watching Otis Rolley who's the Head of Philanthropy and Community Impact Wells Fargo & CO, and also President of the Wells Fargo Foundation.

Mr. Rolley, thank you so much for joining us.

Appreciate it.

- Thanks for the opportunity.

Have a good one.

- You too.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

To watch more Think Tank with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We are honored to be joined by another Rutgers scholar, Dr. Saladin Ambar, professor of political science and senior scholar at the Eagleton Institute of Politics at Rutgers University, my alma mater, at Eagleton.

And first of all, Doctor, thank you so much for joining us.

- Oh, please, Steve, call me Din, and good to be here this post-election moment.

- So again, post-election, the end of 2022 moving into 2023, this will be seen then.

Question, I'm looking, I know, my research is a lot of papers, and it includes the "Post."

Yes, the "Post," not "The Washington Post."

"Eyes on the Spies," help us get this.

So now the Republicans control the lower house.

The Democrats, even though people are moving around there, it looks like they control the Senate and Joe Biden's the president.

Republicans taking over the House, they say their primary focus is Hunter Biden.

We have inflation.

We have global warming issues.

We have internal threats, external threats.

There are a whole range of issues.

Hunter Biden, top of the list, sir, please talk to us.

- Well, the Republican Party, frankly, is a non-functioning party if it's a party at all, certainly on a national level.

Look, there are Republicans in states like Georgia.

Brian Kemp has an agenda there.

- The governor there.

- People like Mitch McConnell who care about, you know, policy and getting judges through.

But by and large, it is a non-party.

It is an ideology of distortion, you know, vagaries of human personality.

It's kind of a form of a cult in some ways.

It can't be taken seriously as a party as such.

There's no real platform to speak of.

They were pretty proud of that last time.

So yeah, they kind of are perfect for the "New York Post," the paper I grew up with in Queens, page six.

It's a page-six party, if we could call it that.

- And Din, I appreciate what you're saying, but there are significant number of people who call themselves Republicans.

However, and the reason I'm focusing on this, and then we'll talk about the Democrats in a second, and there are lots of splits in that party, in the Democratic party as well.

But when Marjorie Taylor Greene is saying, and to the young Republicans, I'm not sure what state she was in, "You know, if Steve Bannon," Trump's former advisor, "and I were leading the January 6th insurrection, we would've" quote, "won, and we would've been armed."

And then said, "I was joking."

But Marjorie Taylor Greene matters.

She matters to Kevin McCarthy.

She matters in the Republican Party.

Where does she, what do you think winning means to her and to that wing of the party?

- I think winning means attention.

It means, you know, media hits.

It means being able to make money on the circuit, speaker circuit.

It means glorifying yourself to the expense of real policy and issues.

Again, it's about the individual candidate and the personality and the persona.

You know, tapping into that right-wing media funding and you know, chicken circuit, however you wanna describe it, and it's tragic for democracy.

Let's, you know, not parse words here.

It's absolutely tragic for democracy in America.

- Why, Din, why?

Help people understand that, who just say, "I'm a Republican.

Why are you mixing me in with all those other folks who have things they say that are so dangerous having to do with January 6th?

What does that have to do with democracy?"

- Well, you know, Liz Cheney, last I checked, is still a Republican.

Mitt Romney's still a Republican.

There are a handful of Republicans nationally around the country who care about democracy, who care about January 6th as not representative of multiracial democracy.

This is still a republic, at least ostensibly, and there are some Republicans, few though they may be, who care about that, and including, I think, Mitch McConnell.

You know, so to be a Republican is not a, you know, an attack.

To be a Republican who has, is not to launch an attack on one's person, but to be a Republican and remain silent on January 6th, let alone to approve of it, you know, to traffic in innuendo that somehow it was a good thing or could've even been done better is horrific and automatically should disqualify someone from holding office or running for office as a member of a party to be taken seriously.

- Talking about the role of Congress, we look forward to having an interview with the congressman who represents, I believe, the 7th district, Tom Kean, who beat Tom Malinowski in a very highly competitive race, at the time, the candidate for Congress, Tom Kean, did not do any media interviews with us or a whole range of other folks.

We look forward to having him.

Why?

Because we wanna know, you know, we've interviewed people, actually, I'm gonna come to this, because I'll ask Congressman Kean about this, but I asked State Senator Edward Durr from South Jersey, who actually won in a race against the Senate President, Steve Sweeney, I asked him about January 6th and what we need to learn from it, and he said, "Let's move on."

I asked him about denying the 2020 election.

He said, "Steve, let's move on."

How do we move on, Din, without acknowledging what those things, what those events mean and what denying elections mean?

"So let's just move on," Din.

That's what the Senator said.

You say?

- I think that in all, let me be very serious here for a moment.

You know, I think there's something to be said about moving on from, you know, anti-democratic, you know, violent events in our history.

You know, we're a state that remembers 9/11.

We're a country that, you know, certainly supports the statement "never again" with respect to the Holocaust.

We're a country that ought to remember and does remember slavery.

We don't, we're adults here.

We can't just move on from bad things because they maybe affect us personally in a negative way or how people perceive us.

That is the absolute, you know, worst remedy for any kind of problem.

You know, I'm not a psychologist, but I think, you know, Psych 101 tells you that, you know, running from your problems is not the way to address them.

- But they don't, but excuse me, Din, many Republicans do not see that as a problem, They are the party of either Donald Trump or those who believe in that, quote, MAGA wing, that philosophy, and dare I say, there's a, we're interviewing some folks who've written and understand the QAnon stuff.

But is that the party, or is it a narrow wing of the party?

And I promise I'll move to the Democrats.

I've got two minutes left.

- You know, I think you're right.

I think it is the party, but I think there are folks in the party like Tom Kean Jr. who realize it's a problem, who, you know, if you cornered him in a room somewhere would tell you this is absolutely nuts, it's bonkers, but they- - And his father, former Governor Kean, would say the same thing.

- 100%, absolutely, a man of, you know, dignity, whatever you may think about the- - And Chris Christie, our former governor, would say the same thing, and Christine Todd Whitman, a former Republican governor, would say the same thing, so what's left?

- Well, at some point, someone of prominence is going to have to take a stand for the benefit of the country and for the benefit of their own party.

If they truly care about their party, someone of prominence is gonna have to take a stand, and certainly Tom Kean Jr., with his name recognition in a state like New Jersey, would go a long way to doing that if he were to take on that battle.

- Din, real quick on this minute left, President Biden, I believe, will be 82 if he runs again in 2024.

I'm not gonna be accused of an ageist, being an ageist, but is 82 too old to run for president, which means 86 on the back end?

- You know, as someone who wakes up with aches and pains every day, you know, (laughs) I think we all know that, you know, when you start to get up in age, you're not at your optimum.

And you know, ideally he would turn it over to someone else.

But the truth of the matter is, if Donald Trump is the nominee for the Republican Party, a big if, obviously he's got a lot of legal issues and other problems going on, but if he were to be, then Biden may be one of a handful of people who can beat him, to which I say, you know, if he's 103, let's roll him out there because democracy is on the line.

And I think sadly, that's where we are at this stage in our politics.

- I appreciate what you're saying, but also it seems to me that the party has the responsibility to put up the strongest possible candidate to make the biggest difference for all the people, and people who can decide for themselves.

Professor, I wanna thank you so much for joining us.

To John Farmer and the family at the Eagleton Institute at Rutgers, we thank you so much.

Thank you, Professor.

- Thank you for having me, Steve, pleasure.

- You got it.

Steve Adubato, that's the professor.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by The Healthcare Foundation of New Jersey.

Newark Board of Education.

PSEG Foundation.

PSE&G, NJ Best, New Jersey'’s five-two-nine college savings plan.

The Adler Aphasia Center.

The North Ward Center.

Community FoodBank of New Jersey.

And by Johnson & Johnson.

Promotional support provided by Meadowlands Chamber.

And by NJBIZ.

How do you create change?

By cultivating hope.

And we see that every day, in the eyes of our preschoolers, in the souls of the seniors in our adult day program, in the minds of the students at Robert Treat Academy, a national blue ribbon school of excellence, in the passion of children in our youth leadership development program, in our commitment to connections at the Center for Autism, and in the heart of our community, the North Ward Center, creating opportunities for equity, education, and growth.