>> "ALMANAC" IS A PRODUCTION OF TWIN CITIES PBS FOR THE STATIONS OF MINNESOTA PUBLIC TELEVISION ASSOCIATION.

>> CATHY: COVID CASES ARE RISING, THE FIRST WEEK OF TESTIMONY IN THE DEREK CHAUVIN TRIAL, A PROFILE OF A NORTHERN MINNESOTA ARTIST.

PODCASTER AARON BROWN WILL ALSO STOP BY.

IT'S A FULL HOUR OF "ALMANAC," AND IT ALL STARTS NOW.

♪♪♪ >> "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY MEMBERS OF THIS PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION.

SUPPORT IS ALSO PROVIDED BY· GREAT RIVER ENERGY: PROVIDING ELECTRICITY AND RELATED SERVICES TO 28 CO-OPS IN MINNESOTA.

A TOUCHSTONE ENERGY COOPERATIVE.

DELTA DENTAL OF MINNESOTA FOUNDATION: MAKING DENTAL CARE POSSIBLE FOR MINNESOTANS IN NEED.

DELTADENTALMN.ORG/TPT.

THE SHAKOPEE MDEWAKANTON SIOUX COMMUNITY: A TRIBAL NATION FOCUSED ON COMMUNITY AND COLLABORATION - ESPECIALLY IN TIMES LIKE TODAY.

ENBRIDGE: CONNECTING MINNESOTANS WITH ENERGY FOR OVER 70 YEARS.

MORE AT ENBRIDGE.COM/LINETHREEUS.

AND EDUCATION MINNESOTA: THE VOICE FOR PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS AND STUDENTS THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

MORE AT EDUCATIONMINNESOTA.ORG.

"ONE GREATER MINNESOTA" REPORTING ON "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE OTTO BREMER TRUST, WHOSE MISSION IS INVESTING IN PEOPLE, PLACES AND OPPORTUNITIES IN THE UPPER MIDWEST.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT COMES FROM THE MINNEAPOLIS FOUNDATION, INSPIRING AND ENGAGING IN ACTION TO REALIZE STRONG, VIBRANT COMMUNITIES, AND FROM THE BLANDIN FOUNDATION.

>> CATHY: WE'LL GET TO ALL OF THE WEEK'S TOP STORIES, BUT WE START WITH TESTIMONY TODAY IN THE TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN WHO FACES MURDER AND MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES IN THE DEATH LAST MAY OF GEORGE FLOYD.

>> ERIC: HERE TO TALK ABOUT TODAY'S ONGOING TESTIMONY ABOUT POLICE USE OF FORCE AND OTHER TOPICS, MARY MORIARTY.

SHE'S THE FORMER CHIEF PUBLIC DEFENDER IN HENNEPIN COUNTY.

MARY, LET'S WATCH SOME TESTIMONY ABOUT POLICE USE OF FORCE AND THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT ON THE OTHER SIDE.

OKAY?

ROLL IT.

>> BASED ON YOUR REVIEW OF THE BODY-WORN CAMERA FOOTAGE, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHEN THE RESTRAINT OF Mr. FLOYD SHOULD HAVE ENDED IN THIS ENCOUNTER?

>> YES.

>> WHAT IS IT?

>> WHEN Mr. FLOYD WAS NO LONGER OFFERING UP ANY RESISTANCE TO THE OFFICERS, THEY COULD HAVE ENDED THEIR RESTRAINT.

>> AND THAT WAS AFTER HE WAS HANDCUFFED AND ON THE GROUND AND NO LONGER RESISTANT?

>> CORRECT.

>> BASED ON YOUR REVIEW OF THE BODY CAMS, DID YOU SEE ANY NEED FOR OFFICER CHAUVIN TO IMPROVISE BY PUTTING HIS KNEE ON Mr. FLOYD FOR 9 MINUTES AND 29 SECONDS?

>> NO, I DID NOT.

>> I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.

>> Eric: MARY, HOW IMPORTANT?

>> CRITICAL.

IN FACT, THE FIRST WITNESS WAS SERGEANT PLOEGER AND HE WAS THE PERSON THAT THE 911 OPERATOR CALLED WHEN SHE THOUGHT THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG WHEN SHE SAW THE OFFICER SITTING ON GEORGE FLOYD FOR SO LONG.

HE WAS DEREK CHAUVIN'S SUPERVISOR.

HE'S RETIRED, BUT A MEMBER OF MPD.

8 THE LAST WITNESS WE HEARD WAS NOW LIEUTENANT ZIMMERMAN, AND HIS TESTIMONY IS CRITICAL AS WELL.

HE IS THE LONGEST-SERVING POLICE OFFICER ON MPD, AND HE WAS VERY CLEAR THAT THE USE OF FORCE WAS EXCESSIVE.

AND I SHOULD SAY THAT THERE WAS AN ARGUMENT ABOUT WHETHER THESE OPINIONS WOULD ALLOWED -- WOULD BE ALLOWED, THE DEFENSE TRIED TO KEEP THEM OUT BUT THE STATE WAS SUCCESSFUL IN GETTING THEM IN.

I THINK THEY'RE CRITICAL BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH LONGTIME MEMBERS OF THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT, THEY'RE NOT FROM OUTSIDE SOURCES.

BOTH IN KNOW CHAUVIN AND THEY BOTH SAID WHAT HE DID EXCEEDED WHAT THEY'RE ALLOWED TO DO UNDER MPD POLICY AND TRAINING.

>> Cathy: MARY, WHAT DOES THE DEFENSE DO WITH THIS?

HOW DO THEY REBUT THIS?

>> THAT'S TOUGH.

I BELIEVE THEY'RE GOING TO CALL THEIR OWN USE OF FORCE EXPERTS, BUT IT'S STILL VERY TOUGH.

TO GO ALONG WITH THAT, WE HAVE THE VIDEO.

WE ALSO HAD SOME PRETTY DEVASTATING TESTIMONY FROM PARAMEDICS THIS WEEK THAT THE STATE CALLED.

THEY WERE THE TWO PARAMEDICS WHO ARRIVED AT THE SCENE, BOTH OF THEM DESCRIBED GEORGE FLOYD'S CONDITION AS, IN LAY TERMS, DEAD.

HE HAD NO PULSE.

HE WAS NOT BREATHING AT ALL.

IN FACT, HE HAD NO ELECTRICAL ACTION IN HIS HEART AT ALL.

SO THEIR PROTOCOL MEANT THAT THEY COULDN'T EVEN TRY TO SHOCK HIM.

SO HE, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, WAS DEAD AT THE SCENE, AND THEY WERE NEVER ABLE TO REVIVE HIM.

SO, WHEN THE PARAMEDICS ARRIVED, HE WAS ESSENTIALLY DEAD, YET, THE OFFICERS WERE ON TOP OF HIM AND CHAUVIN HAD HIS KNEE IN HIS NECK, AND, SO, IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE HOW THE DEFENSE CAN REFUTE THAT GIVEN WHAT WE'VE ALL SEEN ON THE TAPE, GIVEN THE FACT THAT AT THAT POINT NOT ONLY WAS HE UNRESPONSIVE, HE WAS DEAD.

AND THE TWO MINNEAPOLIS POLICE OFFICERS WHO TESTIFIED THAT THE USE OF FORCE WAS EXCESSIVE, I EXPECT ALSO TO HEAR MORE USE OF FORCE TESTIMONY NEXT WEEK FROM THE TRAINING OFFICERS FROM MPD AND, OF COURSE, WE'RE ALSO GOING TO HEAR FROM CHIEF ARRADONDO.

>> Eric: HOW ABOUT INTIMIDATED BY THE BIG CROWD?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE OF THOSE THEORIES THAT I CERTAINLY HEARD THAT IN OPENING STATEMENT, AND I WONDERED ABOUT IT.

AND I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT THEY PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE RECONSIDERED AND SHOULD RECONSIDER NOW.

BECAUSE IT JUST ISN'T WORKING OUT.

EARLIER THIS WEEK, WE AND THE JURORS GOT TO MEET EACH OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE STANDING ON THAT CURB, AND FOUR OF THEM WERE YOUTH.

ONE OF THEM WAS 9 YEARS OLD.

WE MET THEM.

WE HEARD THEIR STORIES.

WE KNOW THAT THEY WERE DESPERATELY TRYING TO HELP GEORGE FLOYD.

WE SAW THE VIDEO WHEN THAO PUSHED THEM BACK OR TOLD THEM TO GET BACK, THEY COMPLETELY COOPERATED.

AND TODAY ZIMMERMAN WAS ASKED ABOUT THAT.

YOU KNOW, WHAT ABOUT A CROWD?

AND HE SAID, THE CROWD IS IRRELEVANT.

UNLESS THE CROWD IS ATTACKING YOU, THEY ARE IRRELEVANT.

YOU OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO DO YOUR JOB.

AND THEN YESTERDAY THE DEFENSE ASKED PLOEGER, THE SERGEANT THAT YOU HEARD, WHAT IF SOMEBODY WAS SHOOTING A GUN AT POLICE OFFICERS, WOULD IT BE OKAY FOR THEM TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FIRST AND THEN RENDER AID?

AND, OF COURSE, THE STATE CAME BACK AND SAID, WAS ANYBODY SHOOTING A GUN AT THE MPD OFFICERS?

AND HE SAID, NO.

SO I WAS DOUBTFUL ABOUT THAT THEORY WHEN I HEARD IT IN OPENING, AND I THINK IT'S JUST GOTTEN WORSE, AND I THINK PERHAPS FOR THE DEFENSE IT MIGHT BE ONE TO LET GO AND REALLY JUST FOCUS ON THE CAUSE OF DEATH.

>> Cathy: LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THIS VERY EMOTIONAL TESTIMONY THAT WE HEARD THIS WEEK.

HOW GENERALLY DO JURIES DEAL WITH SO MUCH EMOTION?

>> IT'S DIFFICULT.

AND ONE OF THE JURORS DID HAVE A PANIC ATTACK.

AND SHE HADN'T BEEN SLEEPING.

THEY DID HAVE TO TAKE A LENGTHY BREAK.

THOSE OF US WHO WORK IN THE COURT SYSTEM, WHO ARE USED TO SEEING PICTURES -- I SHOULDN'T SAY USED TO, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT WORD -- BUT WE DO LIVE WITH THIS, WE DO HEAR THESE THINGS AND SEE THINGS.

AND ARE A LITTLE BETTER ABLE TO COMPARTMENTALIZE, BUT THE FIRST TWO DAYS OF TESTIMONY WERE EXCEPTIONALLY EMOTIONAL.

WE'VE GOT YOUTH, FOR ONE, BUT ALMOST EVERYBODY THAT GOT ON THE STAND ENDED UP IN TEARS IN SOME WAY AND TALKING ABOUT THE TRAUMA THAT THEY HAD EXPERIENCED AND ALSO THE GUILT.

AND ONE THING THAT STOOD OUT TO ME WAS WHEN DARNELLA, THE YOUNG WOMAN WHO TOOK THE BYSTANDER VIDEO, WAS BEING CROSS EXAMINED BY THE DEFENSE, IT'S A CARDINAL RULE IN CROSS EXAMINATION NOT TO ASK THE QUESTION IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWER.

AT THE END OF HER CROSS, HE SAID TO HER, YOU POSTED THIS VIDEO ON FACEBOOK.

YES.

IT WENT VIRAL.

YES.

AND THEN HE SAID, IT CHANGED YOUR LIFE, AND SHE SAID, YES.

AND THAT'S ALL HE ASKED AND SAT DOWN.

AND WE WERE LEFT TO WONDER WHAT THE IMPLICATION OF THAT WAS.

DID SHE BECOME A CELEBRITY?

DID SHE SOMEHOW GAIN SOMETHING FROM THAT?

BUT THEN THE STATE WAS ABLE TO STAY TO -- SAY TO HER, DARNELLA, HOW DID THAT AFFECT YOUR LIFE, AND THAT IS THE ONLY REASON THE JURORS HEARD HER TESTIMONY THAT MANY NIGHTS SHE STAYS UP PRAYING TO GEORGE FLOYD AND APOLOGIZING TO HIM BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T DO MORE TO SAVE HIS LIFE.

SO, WE WOULD NOT HAVE HEARD THAT TESTIMONY BUT FOR THAT QUESTION.

SO IT'S -- I THINK IT'S BEEN -- I CAN ONLY IMAGINE IT'S BEEN TRAUMATIC FOR JURORS HEARING WHAT PEOPLE WITNESSED AND THE ANGST, I WOULD SAY, THE GUILT OF NOT BEING ABLE TO DO MORE, EVEN THOUGH EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM TRIED IN THEIR OWN WAY TO GET THE OFFICERS TO GET OFF OF GEORGE FLOYD AND TO HELP HIM.

>> Eric: A COUPLE OF THE CABLE TV ANALYSTS THIS WEEK WERE SAYING THAT THE DEFENSE IS LEFT WITH TWO BAD CHOICES ON WHETHER OR NOT TO PUT CHAUVIN ON THE STAND.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> YEAH.

THIS IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT CASE THAN MOST POLICE CASES WE SEE BECAUSE MOST OF THEM INVOLVE GUNS.

AN OFFICER SHOOTING SOMEBODY.

AND THEY MAKE THAT SPLIT-SECOND DECISION.

AND THEY OFTEN GET ON THE STAND AND THEY TALK ABOUT HOW THEY HAD TO MAKE A SPLIT-SECOND DECISION AND THEY ARE OFTEN VERY REMORSEFUL, VERY EMOTIONAL.

THIS IS NOT THAT CASE.

THERE'S NO SPLIT-SECOND DECISION HERE.

I THINK THIS CASE, FOR THE DEFENSE, RISES AND FALLS ON THE -- WHETHER THEY CAN CAST ANY DOUBT ON THE CAUSE OF DEATH.

AND, SO, THEY COULD VERY WELL FEEL COMFORTABLE THAT THEY'VE DONE ENOUGH AS THEY CAN WITHOUT CHAUVIN'S TESTIMONY.

WHEN YOU DECIDE TO CALL A CLIENT, IT'S ACTUALLY THE CLIENT'S DECISION, YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY CAN ADD.

YOU KNOW, WHAT CAN THEY SAY HERE THAT CAN HELP?

AND PART OF THAT IS DEMEANOR.

AND WE'VE ALL BEEN WATCHING HIM ON TV.

THE CAMERA WILL PAN TO HIM AFTER SOME EMOTIONAL TESTIMONY HAS COME UP AND HE HAS SHOWN NO EMOTION.

AND, SO, IF HE WAS GOING TO GET UP ON THE STAND AND BE ABLE TO SHOW SOME REMORSE WHILE ALSO SAYING, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T CAUSE THE DEATH, IT WAS A TRAGIC OVERDOSE, THAT MIGHT BE HELPFUL.

BUT WE HAVE NOT SEEN ANY INDICATION FROM HIM EITHER SITTING THERE IN THE COURTROOM OR EVEN WHEN WE HEARD HIS VOICE ON THE BODY CAM.

REMEMBER WHEN HE WAS CONFRONTED BY Mr. McMILLAN, HE JUST TALKED ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, GEORGE FLOYD HAD GONE CRAZY, WHEN HE TALKED TO HIS SUPERVISOR AND ACTUALLY DIDN'T TELL HIM ABOUT THE USE OF FORCE THAT HE GAVE, VERY COLD, VERY FLAT, AND, SO, IF THAT'S WHAT WE GOT ON THE WITNESS STAND, THAT WOULD NOT GO OVER WELL WITH JURORS.

BUT, OF COURSE, HIS LAWYER KNOWS HIM BETTER THAN THE REST OF US AND KNOWS WHETHER HE WOULD BE A BETTER WITNESS.

BUT THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT TO MAKE THAT DECISION UNTIL THEY SEE HOW THE STATE'S CASE COMES IN.

>> Eric: GREAT STUFF, COUNSELOR.

THANKS SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Eric: WE'LL HAVE MUCH MORE ON THE CHAUVIN TRIAL LATER IN THE HOUR WHEN WE ARE JOINED BY THREE REPORTERS COVERING THE LEGAL PROCEEDINGS.

UP NEXT, THE RISE IN COVID CASES HERE AND NATIONALLY.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

>> THE IRON RANGE HAS HAD JUST A HUGE IMPACT AND BROUGHT SOME CLASSIC CHARACTERS AND SOME INCREDIBLY INFLUENTIAL LAWMAKERS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT CARRYING ON THAT LEGACY?

>> I MEAN, LOOK AT THE ONES I'M SERVING WITH ALREADY.

TOM BAKK AND DAVID TOMASSONI, I MEAN, THEY'RE LEGENDS AND THEY'RE STILL SERVING AND I'M LUCKY TO BE MEMBERS OF THE IRON RANGE DELEGATION WITH THEM.

BUT I THINK THERE'S ONE THING THAT ALL OF THESE LEGENDARY IRON RANGERS HAVE BROUGHT IS A PASSION FOR THEIR COMMUNITY AND FOR THEIR WAY OF LIFE, RIGHT?

SO WE SEE THAT FROM THEM, WE SEE THAT FROM CONGRESSMAN STAUBER AND I WANT TO CARRY THAT SAME PASSION AND THAT FIRE SO THAT EVERY TIME THAT I COME DOWN TO St. PAUL, I SIT IN MY DESK, WHEN I'M ON THE HOUSE FLOOR, I'M REMEMBERING THOSE PEOPLE THAT SENT ME THERE, THEIR FACES.

♪♪♪ >> CATHY: FIRST, THE GOOD NEWS.

MORE VACCINATION SHOTS ARE GETTING INTO ARMS EVERY DAY.

NEARLY 20% OF AMERICANS ARE NOW FULLY VACCINATED.

NOW FOR THE TROUBLING NEWS.

COVID CASES ARE ON THE RISE ONCE AGAIN.

AND THE MIDWEST SEEMS TO BE ONCE MORE A HOT SPOT.

MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, WHO SAID ON THIS SHOW EIGHT WEEKS AGO THAT THERE WOULD BE A COVID SURGE THIS SPRING, JOINS US AGAIN.

OSTERHOLM HEADS THE CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY AT THE U OF M. ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

THANKS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Cathy: SO, YEAH, YOU DID SAY THAT THE DARKEST DAYS WERE AHEAD OF US HERE.

HOW DARK IS THIS GOING TO GET, DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, WHEN I TALK ABOUT DARK DAYS IN THIS PANDEMIC, YOU REALLY NEED TO BREAK THAT INTO TWO SEPARATE PIECES.

ONE IS WHAT'S HAPPENING GLOBALLY, AND RIGHT NOW WE'RE WITHIN ABOUT TWO WEEKS OF SURPASSING THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF CASES THAT HAVE BEEN REPORTED ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD FOR A GIVEN WEEK TO THE W.H.O.

AND WE'RE GOING TO BLOW RIGHT BY THOSE NUMBERS.

SO GLOBALLY RIGHT NOW WE ARE HITTING THE VERY DARKEST DAYS OF THE PANDEMIC.

LOCALLY WHAT'S HAPPENING IS, UNFORTUNATELY, THIS B.1.1.7 VARIANT, THIS VIRUS THAT ORIGINATED IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, IT HAS CERTAIN MUTATIONS THAT MAKE IT 50 TO 100% MORE INFECTIOUS, MAKES IT 50 TO 60% MORE LIKELY TO CAUSE SERIOUS DISEASE IS NOW REALLY STARTING TO HIT HOME HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, CANADA.

WE HAVE EVIDENCE ALREADY FROM EUROPE HOW DEVASTATING THIS CAN BE.

WE HAVE COUNTRIES THERE THAT, DESPITE THEIR OWN VACCINATION PROGRAMS, HAVE HAD TO GO INTO TOTAL LOCKDOWNS, JUST TO KEEP THE INTENSIVE CARE UNITS FROM BEING OVERFLOODED.

SO I THINK THAT WE SURELY ARE GOING TO HAVE A CHALLENGE HERE, AS WE'VE ANTICIPATED AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT ON THIS SHOW FOR WEEKS.

THIS IS NOT A SURPRISE THAT THIS IS HAPPENING.

>> Eric: WITH THE U.K.

VARIANT, YOU GET SICKER AND IT'S QUICKER TO SPREAD, IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?

>> IT IS.

AND THE OTHER THING THAT'S HAPPENING, WHICH IS REALLY REMARKABLE, AND ACTUALLY HAS A LOT OF IMPLICATIONS FOR TRANSMISSION IN THE COMMUNITY TO A LOT OF OUR ADULT POPULATION, AND THAT IS BEFORE YOUNG SCHOOL CHILDREN WERE RARELY INFECTED OR IF THEY WERE, THEY WERE NOT IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF THE TRANSMISSION IN THE COMMUNITY.

THIS IS WHY I HAVE BEEN AMONG THOSE WHO SAID WE COULD GET KIDS BACK TO SCHOOL IN THE CLASSROOM FROM K-8.

B.1.1.7 DOES TRANSMIT IN KIDS IN THE VERY SAME WAYS IT DOES IN ADULTS AND IT'S VERY DYNAMIC.

AND WHEN WE SEE SIMILAR TRANSMISSION LIKE THIS, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH INFLUENZA VIRUSES, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF DAYS TO WEEKS BEFORE THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY IS BEING HIT HARD BY INFLUENZA BECAUSE OF THE KIDS AS SUCH IMPORTANT DISSEMINATORS.

IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS ALONE HERE IN MINNESOTA, WE'VE HAD 749 SCHOOLS THAT HAVE HAD ONE OR MORE CASES, A NUMBER OF THEM HAVE OUTBREAKS.

AND, SO, ALREADY WE'RE SEEING A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE WITH THIS VIRUS AND NOW THAT IS LEADING NOT ONLY TO MORE SICK CHILDREN BUT IT'S ALSO LEADING TO MORE INTENSE VIRUS EXPOSURE IN THE 20 TO 49-YEAR-OLD AGE GROUP, WHICH IS WHERE WE'RE SEEING SOME OF THE HIGHEST HOSPITALIZATION RATES RIGHT NOW.

>> Cathy: AND BECAUSE -- I WAS TALKING TO A PERSON, WELL, YEAH, YOUNGER PEOPLE ARE GETTING INFECTED BUT THEY CAN RECOVER FAST AND THAT'S OKAY, BUT THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE, IS IT, BECAUSE, I MEAN, IF YOU GET SICKER, WE STILL DON'T REALLY KNOW ABOUT THE LINGERING EFFECTS OF COVID, RIGHT?

>> YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER TWO THINGS.

ONE IS THAT WHILE 80% OF THE VERY SEVERE CASES, HOSPITALIZATION AND DEATHS DID OCCUR AMONG OUR 65 AND OVER AGE POPULATION, THEY ONLY ACCOUNTED FOR ABOUT 14 TO 15% OF ALL THE CASES TOTAL.

WHAT I'M SUGGESTING HERE, WHILE WE MAY BE PROTECTING MORE OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS WITH VACCINE, WHICH IS A VERY VERY GOOD THING, AND I GIVE MINNESOTA GREAT CREDIT FOR THE ROLLOUT OF THE VACCINE PROGRAM WE'VE HAD HERE, WHICH LITERALLY IS ONE OF THE NATION'S LEADING PROGRAMS, BUT THE PROBLEM IS IS THAT WE'RE NOW SEEING MORE CASES IN THAT AGE GROUP, 20 TO, SAY, 59, AND THEY'RE MORE SEVERELY ILL, AS WE'VE SEEN IN EUROPE RIGHT NOW, THE INTENSIVE CARE UNITS ARE FILLED WITH VERY CRITICALLY ILL 20, 30, 40 AND 50-YEAR-OLDS.

>> Eric: NOW, FELLOW MEMBER OF THE BIDEN COVID TRANSITION TEAM, YOU WERE ON THAT TRANSITION TEAM, SAID DELAY THE SECOND DOSE FOR 12 WEEKS SO EVERYBODY GETS AT LEAST ONE SHOT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT STRATEGY?

>> WELL, AS YOU MAY RECALL, I ACTUALLY TALKED ABOUT IT ON THIS SHOW TWO MONTHS AGO BECAUSE WE PUT A REPORT OUT THAT ACTUALLY STRONGLY URGED THAT THAT BE THE CASE.

SO THAT REPORT, WHICH ACTUALLY LAYS OUT HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF LIVES WE CAN SAVE AND IT SHOWS THE FACT THAT ONE DOSE WILL PROVIDE OVER 08% PROTECTION -- 80% PROTECTION, WHEREAS, TWO DOSES, 90%.

SO, AS I'VE SAID TIME AND TIME AGAIN, IMAGINE YOU'RE SITTING ACROSS THE TABLE FROM YOUR GRANDPA AND GRANDMA OR YOUR MOM AND DAD AND YOU HAVE A DOSE OF VACCINE IN EACH HAND AND YOU SIT THERE AND SAY TO THEM, I COULD GIVE BOTH DOSES OF THIS TO ONE OF YOU, AND GIVE YOU A 90% LIKELIHOOD OF BEING PROTECTED AGAINST GETTING INFECTED OR I COULD GIVE A DOSE TO EACH OF YOU, AND ONE OF YOU WOULD HAVE 80% AND THE OTHER ONE WOULD OF 80%, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?

I THINK MOST AMERICANS WOULD COME DOWN ON THE SIDE OF LET'S GIVE EVERYBODY A SINGLE DOSE FOR NOW.

AND ALL WE WOULD DO IS DELAY THEM.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SCHEDULING THEM OUT IN MAY AND JUNE WHEN WE HAVE MORE VACCINE.

YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THIS, I CAN GUARANTEE YOU THAT, BECAUSE THERE'S A NUMBER OF US RIGHT NOW WHO ARE REALLY PUSHING 8 FEDERAL FOFT GO TO DO THAT.

ENGLAND HAS DONE THAT AND THAT'S ONE OF THE VERY IMPORTANT REASONS WHY ENGLAND HAS DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST 12 WEEKS OF THEIR HOUSE ON FIRE THAT WAS OCCURRING IN JANUARY.

>> Cathy: BECAUSE THE CASES ARE GOING UP, DO YOU THINK THAT GOVERNMENTS, STATES, INCLUDING MINNESOTA, MIGHT HAVE TAKEN A VICTORY LAP TOO EARLY BY OPENING THINGS UP?

>> YOU KNOW, I'M A SCIENTIST AND NOT A POLITICIAN.

AND, SO, I'M NOT REALLY SKILLED IN THAT ART OF MAKING DECISIONS LIKE THAT.

BUT I'M SEEING IT HAPPEN IN EVERY STATE IN THE COUNTRY, EVERY GOVERNOR, WITHOUT REGARD TO PARTY, EVERY MAYOR HAS BEEN CONFRONTED WITH WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS.

AND WE SEE RIGHT HERE IN MINNESOTA, I CAN SAY WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, THAT GOVERNOR WALZ HAS MADE EVERY EFFORT TO DO WHAT HE CAN TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC'S HEALTH, BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, HE'S DEALING WITH THE REALITY OF EMERGENCY POWERS ACTUALLY BEING STRIPPED FROM HIM IF HE DOESN'T OPEN UP.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE PUBLIC MIGHT GET WHAT THEY'RE ASKING FOR BECAUSE I CAN TELL YOU, BASED ON WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN EUROPE, AND I KNOW I'LL GET MANY ANGRY EMAILS AND PHONE CALLS FOR WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, WE CAN'T DEFY VIRUS GRAVITY, IT'S HERE, IT'S GOING HAPPEN, THIS VIRUS IS COMING.

AND AS WE HAVE SEEN IN EUROPE AND IT'S JUST TODAY, THE PREMIER OF ONTARIO, BASICALLY PUT THE ENTIRE PROVINCE IN A LOCKDOWN BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY'RE HAVING HAPPEN THERE.

I THINK THIS IS GOING TO ULTIMATELY BE WHAT MANY STATES ARE GOING TO HAVE TO ADOPT SOME CONTROLS OF PEOPLE IN PUBLIC SPACES BECAUSE THIS VIRUS WILL TRANSMIT VERY EFFECTIVELY.

I THINK SCHOOLS ARE FRONT AND CENTER.

RIGHT NOW -- AFTER HAVING SPENT ALL THIS TIME WORKING TO GET KIDS BACK IN SCHOOL, WE'RE GOING TO START SEEING MORE AND MORE OUTBREAKS.

WE'RE GOING TO SEE PEOPLE -- KIDS BE SEVERELY ILL AND SOME OF THEM ARE GOING TO DIE.

AND THAT'S GOING TO BE A CHALLENGE THEN, HOW DO YOU PIVOT OUT OF THAT PROMISE TO GET ALL KIDS BACK INTO THE CLASSROOM?

>> Eric: FUTURE OF BIG EVENTS, I'M THINKING, IN PARTICULAR, OF THE MINNESOTA STATE FAIR IN THE END OF AUGUST, FIRST WEEK OF SEPTEMBER?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE WHERE I THINK THERE COULD BE GOOD NEWS, AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THIS SURGE OF B.1.1.7 CASES, WHICH, BY THE WAY, I WANT TO RE-EMPHASIZE, OUR VACCINES COVER THAT VIRUS VERY WELL, IF WE CAN GET THROUGH THIS NEXT SIX TO EIGHT TO NINE WEEKS, WHERE I THINK THIS SURGE WILL TAKE OFF, JUST AS IT TOOK EIGHT WEEKS TO GET HERE, I THINK IT WILL LAST ABOUT THAT LONG, AND IF WE CAN GET ENOUGH PEOPLE VACCINATED IN JUNE AND JULY, I THINK THAT WE COULD VERY EASILY BE TALKING ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF HAVING THE STATE FAIR AND DOING IT SAFELY.

IF WE DON'T, IF WE CONTINUE TO SEE A LARGE SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION RIGHT NOW, BY LARGE I'M TALKING ABOUT 30% OR MORE NOT WANTING TO GET VACCINATED, WE'RE GOING TO BE DEALING WITH THIS FOR A LONG TIME.

AND, SO, THIS IS ALL THE MORE REASON WHY WE HAVE GOT TO EMPHASIZE TO PEOPLE, NOW'S THE TIME TO PROTECT YOURSELF.

WHO WANTS TO DIE TWO DAYS BEFORE THEY WERE SCHEDULED TO GET THEIR COVID SHOT?

NOBODY.

SO IF WE CAN KEEP PEOPLE FROM GETTING INFECTED AND THEN GETTING THEM VACCINATED IN EARLY SUMMER, I THINK WE CAN HAVE A VERY VERY OF DIFFERENT -- VERY VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE.

BUT IF WE DON'T, WE'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF ILLNESSES AND DEATHS OCCUR AS A RESULT OF THIS SURGE WITH, REALLY, THE WORST OF THE VIRUSES WE'VE DEALT WITH YET WITHIN THE COVID PANDEMIC.

>> Cathy: TEST TAKING IS PRETTY LOW.

DO YOU THINK FOLKS ARE SHRUGGING IT OFF AND SHOULD THEY?

>> WELL, THEY ARE.

AND I UNDERSTAND WHY.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL HUMAN.

I WANT TO GET BACK TO A MORE NORMAL STATE.

I WANT TO SPEND, YOU KNOW, TIME IN PUBLIC SPACES.

I MISS NOT GOING TO RESTAURANTS.

I MISS NOT GOING TO VENUES.

I'M ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT HAS TICKETS IN THE FOURTH ROW FOR THE EAGLES CONCERT THAT'S BEEN CANCELED TWICE.

I WANT TO GO.

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE, THIS VIRUS IS WHAT'S TELLING US WHAT WE CAN DO AND CAN'T DO.

AND, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T IGNORE THAT, AS I'VE SAID BEFORE ON THIS VERY SHOW, WE ARE NOT DRIVING THIS TIGER, WE ARE RIDING IT.

AND, SO, WHAT WE HAVE TO GET THROUGH IS THIS NEXT SIX TO EIGHT WEEKS.

WE'VE GOT TO JUST KEEP FROM GETTING INFECTED.

WE'VE GOT TO KEEP ROLLING THE VACCINES OUT.

YOU KNOW, I WISH WE HAD MORE VACCINE QUICKER.

I THINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS DOING EVERYTHING THEY POSSIBLY CAN.

I GIVE THEM THE HIGHEST MARKS FOR GETTING VACCINE OUT.

THE CHALLENGE IS THAT THIS VIRUS IS JUST COMING THAT MUCH FASTER.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATE LIKE MICHIGAN RIGHT NOW, WHICH WE ARE FOLLOWING ABOUT TWO, TWO AND A HALF WEEKS BEHIND, THIS -- TODAY WE HAD 2553 CASES REPORTED.

MICHIGAN REPORTED 7,600 CASES TODAY.

WE ARE SEEING A MUCH MORE SEVERE HIT DOWN THERE.

BUT THEY WERE WHERE WE'RE AT NOW JUST TWO WEEKS AGO.

IN TWO WEEKS, WE COULD EASILY BE LIKE MICHIGAN.

AND, SO, THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO GET ACROSS TO PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT TO FIND OUT THAT THIS WASN'T IMPORTANT -- THIS WAS AN IMPORTANT EVENT IN YOUR LIFE AND ONE OF YOUR LOVED ONES IS DYING.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO KEEP EMPHASIZING, PROTECT YOURSELF, PROTECT YOURSELF.

IF YOU WANT TO GO OUT AND BE IN PUBLIC PLACES, BARS, RESTAURANTS, NO MASK, YOU WANT TO DO THINGS LIKE THAT, THEN YOU'RE PUTTING YOURSELVES IN HARM'S WAY.

AND, UNFORTUNATELY, THE CONSEQUENCES COULD BE INCREDIBLY SEVERE.

>> Cathy: ALL RIGHT.

ALWAYS A PLEASURE, MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Eric: THANKS, DOCTOR.

>> THANK YOU.

♪♪♪ >> ERIC: JONATHAN THUNDER IS A DULUTH ARTIST AND FILMMAKER WHO USES HIS ART TO CONNECT BACK TO HIS INDIGENOUS ROOTS.

AS A KID GROWING UP IN THE '80S IN THE TWIN CITIES, THUNDER SAYS HE FELT DISCONNECTED FROM THAT HISTORY.

HE TALKED TO "ONE GREATER MINNESOTA" REPORTER KAOMI LEE ABOUT BEING ABLE TO CREATE WORK THAT SPEAKS TO BOTH THE PAST AND PRESENT.

>> JONATHAN, HOW DID YOU GET STARTED IN PARTS?

>> MY GUIDANCE COUNSELOR IN HIGH SCHOOL GAVE ME THE VERY DANGEROUS ADVICE THAT I SHOULD GO TO ART SCHOOL AFTER GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL AND I WENT TO STUDY IN SANTA FE, NEW MEXICO, AND I'VE BEEN DOING IT SINCE.

I'M A RED LAKE OJIBWE, THAT'S WHERE I'M ENROLLED.

BOTH MY PARENTS ARE FROM THERE.

YOU KNOW, I KNEW SINCE I WAS A KID THAT THIS IS WHAT I WANTED TO DO.

FOR ME, I ALWAYS TRY TO WEAVE A LITTLE BIT OF MY OWN PERSONAL JOURNEY INTO EACH PIECE, NOT ONLY AS JUST AN OBSERVER, YOU KNOW, MAYBE A U.S. CITIZEN, BUT A CITIZEN OF THE RED LAKE NATION.

AND WHERE AM I AS SOMEBODY WHO GREW UP IN THE TWIN CITIES, NOT FULLY UNDERSTANDING, YOU KNOW, LIKE EVERYTHING ABOUT OJIBWE HERITAGE, SOMETIMES THAT COMMENTARY IS A GOOD PLACE TO POSITION MYSELF IN THE DYNAMICS OF THE CHARACTERS IN MY WORK WHICH I THINK IS SORT OF LIKE A CROSS-POLLINATION BETWEEN STORYTELLING, YOU KNOW, LIKE FILM MAKING, AND PAINTING.

SO THROUGH RESEARCHING SOME OF THESE STORIES AND WORKING WITH PEOPLE WHO TEACH OJIBWE LANGUAGE OR WORK TO TELL STORIES ABOUT OJIBWE CULTURE, I SORT OF REVERSE INTRODUCED MYSELF BACK INTO THE CULTURE AND THE MORE I KNOW ABOUT IT AND THEN THE MORE I KIND OF HAVE AN IDEA OF WHERE MY PLACE IS TO STAND, I LIKE TO CREATE WORK THAT IS A LITTLE BIT LIKE VISUAL POETRY, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

IT'S OPEN TO INTERPRETATION BY THE VIEWER BECAUSE I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, BUT I WANT TO DO IT IN A WAY WHERE YOU CAN JOIN THE CONVERSATION, WHERE YOU CAN -- SO THAT IT'S MORE OF A DIALOGUE RATHER THAN LIKE A STOP SIGN OR...

I DEFINITELY APPRECIATE THE SURREALISTS, YOU KNOW, APPROACH TO THINGS, IT'S KIND OF MYSTERIOUS, VERY HARD TO PULL OFF.

IT'S HARD TO NOT SAY SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE WORLD OR, YOU KNOW, YOUR COMMUNITY IS IN A PLACE WHERE SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE SAID.

AS AN ARTIST, I DO FEEL A LITTLE BIT OF A SENSE OF DUTY TO RECORD.

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING AROUND ME, AND I HAVE TO DO THAT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE.

♪♪♪ >> CATHY: FOR OUR NEXT STORY WE STAY UP NORTH AND LEARN ABOUT THE LEGACY OF A POWERFUL POLITICIAN THAT YOU PROBABLY HAVE NEVER HEARD OF.

AUTHOR AARON BROWN AND INDEPENDENT FILMMAKER AND ACTOR KARL JACOB HAVE BEEN WORKING TO CHANGE THAT.

THEY'RE PREPARING TO RELEASE THE PODCAST "POWER IN THE WILDERNESS" THAT CENTERS AROUND VICTOR POWER, MAYOR OF HIBBING IN THE 1910S AND '20S.

THEIR WEBSITE DESCRIBES IT AS "PART HISTORY.

PART MYSTERY."

WELL, ARE YOU GUYS WITH US?

>> OH, WE'RE RIGHT HERE, HI, CATHY.

>> Cathy: YEAH, GREAT.

DIDN'T KNOW WHERE YOU WERE.

SORRY ABOUT THAT.

[ Laughter ] MY APOLOGIES THERE.

AARON AND KARL, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

SAY, ACTUALLY, AARON, YOU AND I TALKED ABOUT VICTOR POWER WHEN WE WERE DOING AN INTERVIEW LAST YEAR, AS A MATTER OF FACT, IN HIBBING.

THIS GUY SEEMED LIKE A QUINTESSENTIAL RANGE CHARACTER.

TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT VICTOR POWER.

>> YEAH, WELL, VICTOR POWER WAS THE BLACKSMITH ASSISTANT FOR THE MINES, WHO PUT DOWN HIS HAMMER AND WENT TO LAW SCHOOL TO FIGHT ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE HE KNEW, THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM, THE IMMIGRANTS, THE MERCHANTS, THE PEOPLE AND BASICALLY HE STARTED A WAR BETWEEN THE VILLAGE OF HIBBING AND ITS BIGGEST EMPLOYER AND TAXPAYER, U.S. STEEL.

AND FOUGHT FOR SOME KIND OF PARITY BETWEEN THOSE TWO ENTITIES.

>> Cathy: NOW, KARL, WEREN'T YOU KIND OF RESEARCHING THE SAME THING THAT AARON WAS RESEARCHING, IS THAT HOW YOU GUYS KIND OF BUMPED INTO EACH OTHER WITH THIS SUBJECT?

>> YEAH.

I STARTED RESEARCHING IT BECAUSE I WAS INTERESTED IN THE HIGH SCHOOL IN HIBBING AND SORT OF THE HISTORY OF THE HIGH SCHOOL.

AND I WANTED TO FIGURE OUT WHY IT EXISTED.

AND IT WAS A COMPLICATED ROAD TO GO DOWN, AND EVERY TIME I TRIED A DIFFERENT ANGLE TO SEE WHY THE HIGH SCHOOL WAS BUILT IN THE FIRST PLACE, IT ALL KIND OF ENDED WITH THIS GUY, VICTOR POWER, SO THEN I STARTED GETTING INTERESTED IN HIM.

AND THAT WAS AN EVEN THICKER SORT OF POOL OF KNOWLEDGE TO TRY TO TREAD THROUGH.

AND WHILE I WAS IN THAT RESEARCH, I KIND OF RAN INTO AARON.

ACTUALLY, I WAS TIPPED OFF BY MY MOM, INITIALLY, WHO HAD HEARD THAT HE WAS WORKING ON THE SAME PROJECT, AND I GAVE HIM A CALL.

>> I WORK WITH HIS MOM.

>> YEAH.

[ Laughter ] SO THEN WE HAD A CONVERSATION, SAID, WELL, HEY, INSTEAD OF BOTH OF US TRYING TO FIGHT THIS BATTLE OF UNCOVERING THIS WHAT IS ULTIMATELY A BURIED STORY FROM 100 YEARS AGO, WHY DON'T WE JUST TEAM UP AND SHARE RESEARCH, SHARE KNOWLEDGE, AND THEN IN AN EFFORT TO TRY TO ORGANIZE EVERYTHING THAT WE WERE DOING, WE DECIDED TO START RECORDING US TALKING ABOUT IT AND THAT ONE THING LED TO ANOTHER AND BEFORE YOU KNEW IT, WE WERE MAKING A TEN-EPISODE PODCAST FOR NORTHERN COMMUNITY RADIO.

>> Eric: AARON, KARL IS A THRILL MAKER, HOW DID THE -- FILMMAKER, HOW DID THE PODCAST COME ABOUT?

>> WELL, IT'S JUST A FILM WITHOUT PICTURES.

>> Eric: THEATER OF THE MIND.

>> I'M WORKING ON A BOOK, AND KARL WAS INTERESTED IN WORKING ON A FILM PROJECT RELATED TO VICTOR POWER.

AND THAT'S WHERE WE WERE WHEN WE MET.

AND AS KARL DESCRIBED, WE WERE WORKING TOGETHER ON RESEARCH, SHARING INFORMATION, I WOULD COMPARE IT TO BEING WORKOUT BUDDIES WITHOUT WORKING OUT, WE WERE DOING RESEARCH AND SHARING OUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THE PROJECT.

AND IT WAS SOMETHING WE THOUGHT WOULD DRIVE INTEREST IN OUR RESPECTIVE PROJECTS AND SHARE SOME OF THE SKILLS THAT WE HAVE IN COMMON, PRODUCING MEDIA.

I'M MORE OF A RADIO GUY THAN A MOVING PICTURE FELLOW.

AND, SO, KARL IS A GREAT EDITOR, BY THE WAY, AND HAS DONE A MASTERFUL JOB PUTTING TOGETHER OUR AUDIO PRODUCT AND IT'S VERY EXCITING.

YOU CAN ACTUALLY HEAR THE FIRST TWO EPISODES ALREADY NOW ON POWER IN THE WILDERNESS.COM.

>> Cathy: SAY, I HOPE YOU GUYS IN THIS PODCAST ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW LARGE HUNK OF HIBBING MOVED BACK IN THE DAY, WHICH I ALWAYS THOUGHT WAS AN INTERESTING PART OF THE HISTORY OF HIBBING.

KARL, WHAT ABOUT THAT?

>> IT IS.

>> YEAH, WE DEFINITELY GET THERE.

I MEAN, THAT'S A STORY THAT EVERYONE KNOWS.

SO WE DON'T DWELL ON IT TOO MUCH.

BUT WE TALK ABOUT IT ENOUGH TO PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE OF THE LARGER PICTURE AND REALLY, THE MOVE OF THE TOWN WAS A HUGE LEVERAGE, PIECE OF LEVERAGE THAT THEY ULTIMATELY USED -- VIC USED TO GET MONEY FROM THE MINES TO PAY FOR THIS MOVE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, MANY MANY FAMILIES AND BUSINESS PEOPLE'S LIVES WERE LITERALLY UPROOTED WHEN THAT HAPPENED AND THAT COMES WITH A COST.

>> Eric: NOW, IS IT THE TENTH EPISODE WHEN WE LEARN ABOUT THE MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF THE MAYOR?

>> YES.

>> Eric: YOU DON'T WANT TO TIP IT YET, I DON'T THINK?

, >> THERE WILL BE A CLIFFHANGER, I'LL SAY THAT.

>> Eric: WHERE CAN PEOPLE SEE THIS AND GIVE US AN IDEA HOW ACCESSIBLE IT IS.

>> POWERINTHEWILDERNESS.COM, IS WHERE YOU CAN HEAR THE FIRST TWO EPISODES, THE ENTIRE SHOW WILL START GETTING RELEASED ONE EPISODE AT A TIME STARTING MAY 1st ON A WEEKLY BASIS F. YOU'RE A FAN OF THE FIRST TWO EPISODES, AND YOU WANT TO HEAR MORE EPISODES BEFORE THE OFFICIAL RELEASE, YOU CAN BECOME A SUBSCRIBER OF THE SHOW AND HELP US WITH FINANCIAL SUPPORT AND THAT GETS YOU SOME EARLY ACCESS TO NOT ONLY THE SHOW BUT SOME ADDITIONAL PERKS IF YOU GO TO POWERINTHEWILDERNESS.COM.

>> Cathy: WHEN YOU AND I TALKED ABOUT THE PODCAST LAST YEAR, YOU DON'T HAVE A WHOLE BUNCH OF COOL ARCHIVAL HISTORIC BODY YOU CAN USE IN THIS PODCAST.

YOU WITH YOUR BACKGROUND, DOING RADIO SHOWS, SO, REALLY, AND, KARL, BECAUSE YOU'RE AN ACTOR, THIS IS KIND OF A HAPPY MARRIAGE, RIGHT?

>> KINDA, YEAH.

WE TRIED A LITTLE BIT OF ACTING IN THE SHOW.

[ Laughter ] IF YOU LISTEN TO ONE OF THE EPISODES, IT HAS A COMEDIC EFFECT, I THINK.

BUT WE'VE INCLUDED A LOT OF DIFFERENT VOICES, INCLUDING PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY, MODERN PERSPECTIVES ON THAT ERA AND THEN MAYBE PUNCTURING SOME OF THE MYTHS, THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT VOICES, AND I THINK ONE OF THE TREATS IS THE MUSIC.

KARL'S FOUND A LOT OF REALLY GOOD MUSIC FROM THE ERA, INSPIRED BY THE ERA, WE FOUND SOME ETHNIC MUSIC FROM THE DIFFERENT IMMIGRANT GROUPS OF THE RANGE AND IT'S REALLY A COMPELLING, YOU KNOW, MULTIMEDIA PROJECT THAT WAY.

>> Cathy: WHAT DO YOU HOPE ULTIMATELY COMES OF THIS, YOU GUYS?

>> Eric: A MOVIE?

>> WELL, A TV SHOW IS MY IDEAL SITUATION.

THERE'S SO MUCH CONTENT THAT I DON'T THINK TWO HOURS WOULD BE ENOUGH TIME TO TELL THE WHOLE STORY.

SO RIGHT NOW I'M IN THE PROCESS OF PUTTING TOGETHER A PACKAGE AND STARTING TO SHOP AROUND ONCE I'M DONE EDITING THE PODCAST.

AND TRY TO GET A TV VERSION OF THIS THING OFF THE GROUND BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A FASCINATING STORY AND IT HAS SO MANY TENTACLES THAT REACH OUT TO A LOT OF AMERICAN HISTORY IN GENERAL.

I THINK IT'S JUST A COMPELLING THING THAT PEOPLE WOULD REALLY LOVE TO WATCH ON SCREEN.

>> Cathy: SO YOU'VE GOT THE PODCAST, AARON, YOUR BOOK'S COMING OUT, RIGHT?

>> YES.

UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA PRESS COMING OUT EARLY NEXT YEAR.

SO THAT PART IS FOR SURE.

>> Cathy: OKAY.

>> Eric: THANKS SO MUCH.

>> Cathy: THANKS, GUYS.

>> Eric: GOOD LUCK.

>> THANK YOU.

♪♪♪ >> LIKE MILLIONS OF FOLKS HIT HARD ECONOMICALLY BY THE PANDEMIC, I FOUND MYSELF APPLYING FOR JOBS LAST YEAR.

I SEARCHED THROUGH ONLINE JOB BOARDS AND COMPANY WEBSITES LOOKING FOR OPENINGS.

I'D FIND ONE AND THEN I WOULD SPEND HOURS TRYING TO LEARN ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION.

I WOULD AGONIZE OVER A COVER LETTER THAT WOULD SPEAK TO THEIR MISSION AND THEIR VALUES.

I WOULD REWRITE MY ENTIRE RÉSUMÉ HIGHLIGHTING RELEVANT EXPERIENCES I HAD.

AFTER A WEEK OR MORE OF COMPILING WHAT I THOUGHT WAS AN OVERWHELMING CASE THAT I WAS NOT JUST QUALIFIED BUT MADE FOR THIS JOB, I WOULD HIT "SEND," DELIVERING MY APPLICATION OPUS, AND THEN...

NOTHING!

SILENCE!

OVER AND OVER.

I WOULD APPLY TO A COMPANY OR ORGANIZATION AND HEAR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BACK!

NO REPLY THAT WOULD SAY, THANKS FOR APPLYING, BUT WE DECIDED TO HIRE SOMEONE ELSE.

NOT EVEN, WE HAVE RECEIVED YOUR MATERIALS, AND YOU CLEARLY PUT A LOT OF WORK INTO THEM.

THANK YOU.

VOIDS ARE MORE RESPONSIVE.

AND THESE WEREN'T SMALL PLACES THAT DIDN'T HAVE A STAFF OR EVEN A ROBOT TO GENERATE SOME KIND OF REPLY.

THESE WERE HUGE NONPROFITS, COLLEGES, UNIVERSITIES, FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES!

KNOW WHAT?

IT'S RUDE.

IT IS DISRESPECTFUL TO ALL OF US WHO PUT A LOT OF WORK INTO OUR APPLICATIONS.

AND, YET, AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, IF YOU NEVER TELL ME THAT I DIDN'T GET THE JOB, THEN THERE'S STILL A CHANCE.

MAYBE THEY'RE STILL CONSIDERING MY APPLICATION FROM EIGHT MONTHS AGO.

YOU MAY BE LOOKING AT A FINALIST FOR SEVERAL ENTRY-LEVEL COMMUNICATIONS JOBS AT A HALF DOZEN CORPORATIONS RIGHT NOW!

WE DON'T KNOW.

THEY NEVER SAID I WAS OUT!

I KNOW PEOPLE DON'T LIKE DELIVERING BAD NEWS.

BUT JUST SAYING NOTHING IS WORSE.

JUST TELL ME IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK OUT SO I HAVE SOME SENSE OF CLOSURE, SO I CAN MOVE ON.

>> CAN WE TALK WITH YOU?

>> MY TIME'S UP.

I GOTTA GO.

>> CATHY: LAST YEAR IN THE WAKE OF THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD, TWIN CITIES PBS LAUNCHED A DIGITAL STORYTELLING INITIATIVE CALLED "RACISM UNVEILED."

ITS AIM IS TO ADDRESS STRUCTURAL RACISM IN MINNESOTA.

IN RECENT WEEKS, THE INITIATIVE HAS CREATED A VIDEO SERIES "TRIAL AND TRIBULATION."

THIS WEEK'S EPISODE EXAMINES THE ROLE OF MEDIA WHEN IT COMES TO RACIAL BIAS.

THE FULL EPISODE CAN BE FOUND BY GOING TO TPTORGINALS.ORG.

HERE'S A CLIP OF WHAT WILL YOU SEE IF YOU GO THERE.

>> WE ALL SAW HIM KILL GEORGE FLOYD, YOU KNOW, NO MATTER WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY, ALMOST, AND YOU WATCH THE PRESS, SEE HOW MUCH THE PRESS BUYS INTO, THAT'S WHAT WILL BE INTERESTING TO WATCH IN THE COMING WEEKS.

SEE HOW MUCH THE MAINSTREAM PRESS BUYS INTO THE DEFENSE'S ARGUMENT, SEE HOW MUCH THEY PUSH BACK ON IT.

>> GEORGE FLOYD'S KILLING WOKE A LOT OF PEOPLE UP, BUT WITH MEDIA AND SOCIAL MEDIA AND ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS, PEOPLE CAN SLIP RIGHT BACK TO PRE-GEORGE FLOYD KILLING.

YOU KNOW?

SO THAT'S HOW IT WORKS WITH SO MANY DIFFERENT SOUND BITES AND SO MANY THINGS YOU'RE TAKEN IN, YOU START THINKING, YEAH, HE HAD A RECORD.

>> FOR THE "STAR TRIBUNE," WE'VE DONE A LOT OF PLANNING AROUND HOW WE'RE GOING TO COVER THIS TRIAL.

BEFORE PLANNING WOULD HAVE MOST LIKELY JUST BEEN TRIAL COVERAGE, WITH SOME COMMUNITY STORIES, RIGHT?

BUT THIS TIME THERE'S AN ENTIRE COMMUNITY TEAM, SO NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE A TRIAL TEAM THAT IS, YOU KNOW, REPORTERS AND EDITORS, WHO ARE JUST TAKING A LOOK AT THE TRIAL, BUT THEN THERE'S A BUNCH OF REPORTERS AND EDITORS WHO ARE JUST TALKING ABOUT COMMUNITY.

AND BEFORE GEORGE FLOYD, I DOUBT THAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

♪♪♪ >> ERIC: EARLIER WE SPOKE WITH LEGAL ANALYST MARY MORIARTY ABOUT TESTIMONY IN THE CHAUVIN TRIAL.

NOW WE TALK WITH THREE JOURNALISTS COVERING THE COURTROOM PROCEEDINGS.

BRANDT WILLIAMS IS A REPORTER FOR "MINNESOTA PUBLIC RADIO NEWS."

KATRINA PROSS IS COVERING THE TRIAL FOR THE ST. PAUL "PIONEER PRESS."

HERE TOO, FRED DE SAM LAZARO, LONGTIME TWIN-CITIES-BASED CORRESPONDENT FOR THE PBS "NEWSHOUR."

BRANDT, LET'S WATCH SOME OF THIS WEEK'S EMOTIONAL TESTIMONY AND COME BACK AND I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT IT.

>> SO WE CAN SEE WHAT THE JURY, TWO PEOPLE WALKING FROM THE LEFT TO THE RIGHT, A LITTLE GIRL IN THE GREEN SHIRT, AND THERE YOU ARE.

DO YOU SEE YOU?

>> YES.

>> AND AS YOU ALL WERE APPROACHING CUP FOODS ON MAY 25th?

>> YES.

>> NOW, YOU SEE THERE, YOUR COUSIN GOES INTO THE STORE.

WHY DID SHE GO INTO THE STORE AND THEN YOU TURNED AROUND AND THEN CAME BACK TOWARDS THE SQUAD CARS?

>> I WANTED TO MAKE SURE SHE GOT IN.

>> WAS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE SCENE THAT YOU DIDN'T WANT YOUR COUSIN TO SEE?

>> YES.

TERRIFIED, SCARED, BEGGING FOR HIS LIFE.

>> STANDING THERE WITH YOUR HANDS ON YOUR HEAD FOR A WHILE, CORRECT?

>> CORRECT.

>> WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND DURING THAT TIME PERIOD?

>> DISBELIEF.

GUILT.

>> WHY GUILT?

>> [ Indiscernible ] >> DO YOU RECALL SAYING, I DARE YOU TO TOUCH ME LIKE THAT?

I SWEAR, I'LL SLAP THE BEEP BEEP OUT OF BOTH OF YOU?

>> YEAH, I DID.

[ BLEEP ] >> SO, AGAIN, SIR, IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU GREW ANGRIER AND ANGRIER?

>> NO I GREW PROFESSIONAL, PROFESSIONAL, I STAYED IN MY BODY.

YOU CAN'T PAINT ME OUT TO BE ANGRY.

>> GUT INSTINCT TO TELL ME THAT THERE'S REASON TO BE CONCERNED.

>> AND WHAT DID YOU DECIDE TO DO?

>> I TOOK THAT INSTINCT AND I CALLED THE SERGEANT.

>> AND DO YOU RECALL WHO THE SERGEANT WAS THAT YOU TALKED TO?

>> IT WAS SERGEANT PLOEGER.

>> WHY DID YOU CALL A SERGEANT?

>> THE SERGEANT IS THE POLICE OFFICERS' SUPERVISOR.

>> Eric: BRANDT WILLIAMS, THE COLUMBIA JOURNALISM REVIEW HAD A VERY INTERESTING STORY THIS MORNING SAYING THAT THE TRAUMA THIS WEEK HAS BEEN REAL FOR THE AUDIENCE, BUT ALSO FOR THE REPORTERS.

HAVE YOU PICKED UP ANY OF THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, I TRIED TO BASICALLY STEEL MYSELF IN PREPARATION FOR THE TRIAL, JUST TO PREPARE TO SEE THE VIDEOS AGAIN AND KIND OF RELIVE SOME OF MY INITIAL RESPONSES TO IT.

AND I'LL TELL YOU THAT I'M GENERALLY NOT A PERSON WHO, EVEN THOUGH I COVER A LOT OF THESE TYPES OF INCIDENTS FOR MY JOB, I DON'T SEEK THEM OUT, I'M NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO WILL AUTOMATICALLY CLICK ON A LOT OF LINKS TO SEE ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A BLACK PERSON DYING IN POLICE CUSTODY.

SO I BASICALLY WAS JUST PREPARED THAT THIS IS WHAT I WAS GOING TO BE SEEING.

IT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT WATCHING THIS ON A TELEVISION AND ON MY COMPUTER SCREEN THAN BEING IN THE COURTROOM WHILE THIS EVIDENCE IS BEING PLAYED.

IT'S AN EXTRA BUFFER THAT I THINK IT AFFORDS ME TO BE ABLE TO WATCH FROM AFAR.

>> Cathy: FRED SAM, YOU'VE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME, AS BRANDT WILLIAMS HAS.

TRAUMA IS OFTEN NOT TALKED ABOUT IN OUR PROFESSION IN JOURNALISM.

AND I'M WONDERING, HOW ARE YOU AND OUR COLLEAGUES DEALING WITH WHAT WE'RE SEEING?

>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE PANDEMIC'S CONSEQUENCES IS THAT WE'RE NOT IN CLOSE PHYSICAL PROXIMITY TO ONE ANOTHER AND I DARE SAY NOT TALKING TO ONE ANOTHER AS OFTEN AS WE MIGHT IF WE WERE HUDDLING AROUND IN THE MEDIA ROOM, FOR EXAMPLE.

SPEAKING FOR MYSELF, AND I'M GUESSING FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, MOST OF US ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING HISTORIC GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF -- HISTORIC ON SO MANY LEVELS THAT THIS TRIAL WAS GOING TO BE, ESPECIALLY THE FACT THAT CAMERAS WERE GOING TO BE ALLOWED IN THE COURTROOM IN MINNESOTA FOR THE FIRST TIME.

NONE OF THOSE COULD HAVE FATHOMED HOW INTENSE THE PROCEEDINGS WOULD BE THIS WEEK, NOT JUST THE EMOTIONAL TESTIMONY THAT WE HEARD FROM SO MANY WITNESSES, BUT THE SHEER GRANULAR GRAPHIC NATURE OF SO MUCH VIDEO THAT WAS ANALYZED AND REANALYZED.

SO I THINK THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE, THAT'S IMPRESSIVE AND MIGHT DRIVE SOME INSOMNIA IN SOME CASES.

>> Eric: KATRINA, THIS ARTICLE IN THE COLUMBIA JOURNALISM REVIEW EVEN ADVISED REPORTERS TO PACE YOUR TRAUMA LOAD.

UNPLUG ON THE WEEKENDS AND STAY AWAY FROM THE NEWS.

YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THE TOPIC AT ALL?

>> YEAH.

I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY HARD FOR A LOT OF JOURNALISTS.

I MEAN, JOURNALISM HAS A 24/7 NEWS CYCLE KIND OF ANYWAY.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY HARD NOT TO SEE SOMETHING ABOUT THIS EVERY DAY, YOU KNOW, MEET OTHER REPORTERS COVERING THE TRIAL.

WE'RE WATCHING EIGHT HOURS A DAY OF COURT FOOTAGE AND THEN IN COURT ON WEDNESDAY WAS A REALLY DIFFICULT DAY FOR ME AND I THINK OTHER JOURNALISTS AS WELL BECAUSE THEY PLAYED ALL FOUR OF THE OFFICERS' BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE BACK TO BACK.

SO, YEAH, IT WAS JUST REALLY EMOTIONALLY DRAINING.

SO HOPEFULLY WITH THE WARMER WEATHER THAT WE'RE GETTING HERE IN MINNESOTA, WE CAN GET OUTSIDE AND KIND OF TAKE A STEP BACK WHEN WE CAN ON THE WEEKEND.

>> Cathy: BRANDT, IT LOOKS LIKE THE JURY, FROM ALL ACCOUNTS FROM SOME OF THE POOL REPORTERS, I MEAN, THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY PAYING VERY CLOSE ATTENTION, THEY WERE TAKING SOME NOTES HERE TODAY, HOW IS THAT POOL ARRANGEMENT WORKING?

>> WELL, SO FAR THEY'VE BEEN CYCLING REPORTERS THROUGH, ONE BROADCAST JOURNALIST AND ANOTHER PRINT JOURNALIST.

I'LL BE IN THERE NEXT WEEK.

I WAS ORIGINALLY SCHEDULED TO BE IN TODAY AND THE SCHEDULE GOT CHANGED.

BUT WHEN I WAS IN THERE DURING JURY SELECTION, IT WAS INTERESTING JUST BECAUSE, AGAIN, WITH ALL THE PANDEMIC PRECAUTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN TAKEN FOR KEEPING PEOPLE SPACED OUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT.

AND JUST BY READING THE REPORTS FROM THE POOL REPORTERS WHO HAVE BEEN COVERING THE ACTUAL TRIAL TESTIMONY, YOU GET THE SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, THE JURORS ARE ALL -- THEY'RE SPREAD OUT IN SEPARATE CHAIRS, THEY'RE NOT SITTING ALL TOGETHER IN ONE JURY BOX.

AND, SO, IT'S GOING TO BE -- I THINK AS THE TRIAL GOES ON, I'LL BE INTERESTED TO SEE HOW THE JURORS STAY FOCUSED ON THE TESTIMONY.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE COVERED LONG TRIALS BEFORE, BUT THEY TEND TO WEAR ON PEOPLE'S -- I'VE SEEN IT WEAR ON JURORS' STAMINA TO STAY FOCUSED TO EVERY DETAIL THAT GETS PRESENTED TO THEM.

AND SITTING IN THESE KIND OF SPACED-OUT SETTINGS, THEY DON'T HAVE SOMEBODY RIGHT NEXT TO THEM THAT THEY CAN LOOK OVER TO AND CHAT WITH, SO WE'LL JUST HAVE TO SEE HOW IT WORKS OUT IN THE COURTROOM.

>> Eric: KATRINA, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE CAMERAS IN THE COURTROOM?

IS IT SERVING A GOOD PURPOSE?

>> YEAH, I THINK SO.

ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE PANDEMIC, JUST NOT THAT MANY JOURNALISTS CAN BE IN THE COURTROOM ITSELF.

I'VE BEEN IN THE COURTROOM TWICE SO FAR AS A POOL REPORTER.

AND I WAS JUST KIND OF SURPRISED HOW SMALL IT IS.

I WAS PICTURING LIKE A REALLY LARGE ROOM, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY KIND OF SMALL.

AND IN A WAY FEELS LIKE A CLASSROOM.

SO I THINK IT IS A REAL ADVANTAGE, ESPECIALLY JUST WITH HOW MUCH INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION THIS HAS GARNERED, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT IT IS BEING LIVESTREAMED BECAUSE, I MEAN, AT THE END OF THE DAY, COURT IS PUBLIC, IT'S A PUBLIC THING THAT PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO.

>> Eric: SINCE YOU'VE BEEN IN THERE, CAN YOU ANSWER A QUESTION THAT I'VE GOTTEN A COUPLE TIMES THIS WEEK, IS, WHAT ABOUT THE COPIOUS NOTETAKING OF FORMER OFFICER CHAUVIN?

>> YEAH.

HE TAKES A LOT OF NOTES.

THE TWO TIMES I'VE BEEN IN THERE, HE KIND OF RUSHES IN ONCE COURT STARTS WITH HIS ATTORNEY, ERIC NELSON, AND THEN HIS ASSISTANT, AMY BOSS, AND RIGHT AWAY HE ALWAYS TAKES HIS LEGAL PAD OUT, LIKE THE SECOND HE SITS DOWN.

HE'LL LOOK OVER HIS NOTES FROM THE DAY BEFORE AND KIND OF READ OVER THEM.

AND THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE PROCEEDINGS HE'S TAKING NOTES THAT ENTIRE TIME.

AND OCCASIONALLY HE'LL POINT AT SOMETHING IN HIS NOTEBOOK AND SHOW IT TO ERIC NELSON AND SOMETIMES THE THREE OF THEM WILL HUDDLE TOGETHER AND THEY'LL CHAUVIN WILL POINT TO THINGS IN HIS NOTEBOOK, HE'S PAYING REALLY CLOSE ATTENTION FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN.

>> Cathy: MONDAY SHOULD BE INTERESTING.

MINNEAPOLIS POLICE CHIEF ARRADONDO WILL TESTIFY, THE PROGRESSION'S -- THE PROSECUTION'S BRINGING HIM IN.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> ONE OF THE NOTEWORTHY ASPECTS OF THIS TRIAL HAS BEEN, AT LEAST FOR THE LARGER GLOBAL AUDIENCE, THE WHOLE TALE OF THE BLUE WALL OF SILENCE.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT WALL RUPTURED, IF YOU WILL, THIS WEEK WITH THE TESTIMONY OF HIS TWO SUPERVISORS, AT LEAST TO THIS POINT IN THE TRIAL.

AND WE WILL SEE MORE TESTIMONY THAT ESSENTIALLY IS DAMAGING, POTENTIALLY, TO THE DEFENSE BECAUSE NOW IT WILL BE NOT JUST THE SERGEANT AND THE DETECTIVE BUT THE CHIEF WHO IS COMING IN TO TESTIFY ON BEHALF OF THE PROSECUTION.

SO IT'S -- YOU KNOW, THAT, I THINK, WILL BE QUITE NOTEWORTHY FROM THE TRIAL.

>> Cathy: YOU KNOW, INTERESTING, WE HAD A SOUND BITE FROM KENDALL HARKNESS FROM THE STRIB RIGHT BEFORE OUR CONVERSATION HERE, AND SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, THIS IS SUCH A MOMENTOUS NEWS EVENT.

YOU'VE GOT THE TRIAL.

THEY'RE COVERING THE TRIAL BUT THEY'RE ALSO COVERING THE COMMUNITY.

SO, BRANDT WILLIAMS, YOU KNOW, HOW ARE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS LIKE, SAY, MPR, AND OTHERS, HOW ARE THEY SLICING THAT?

I MEAN, THERE'S THE TRIAL, THE NEWS, BUT THERE'S ALSO THE REVERBERATIONS WITHIN THE COMMUNITY.

>> RIGHT.

AND I'VE BEEN JUST KIND OF -- THE WAY I LOOK AT IT, WE HAVE PARALLEL TRIALS GOING ON.

WE'VE GOT THE TRIAL GOING ON IN THE COURTROOM AND WE HAVE THE TRIAL GOING ON IN PUBLIC, IN COMMUNITY -- AND COMMUNITY MEMBERS WEIGHING IN, COMMUNITY MEMBERS SERVING AS JURORS AND OBSERVERS.

AND FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN JUST GETTING FROM THE TYPES OF FEEDBACK THAT I'VE BEEN HEARING FROM PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE OF COLOR, IS JUST HOW SOME OF THE TESTIMONY HAS REALLY IMPACTED THEM AND THEY HAVE FELT LIKE THEY NEEDED TO EXPRESS JUST HOW IT MADE THEM FEEL BY WATCHING PARTICULARLY THE DONALD WILLIAMS' TESTIMONY OF HIM SAYING, YOU KNOW, HOW HE WAS ACTUALLY INSIDE HIMSELF AND HE WAS NOT GOING TO LET SOMEBODY ELSE -- SOWNED LIKE WHAT HE WAS SAYING, HE WAS NOT GOING TO SOMEBODY ELSE MAKE HIM LOSE CONTROL WHILE HE WAS BARKING AT THE POLICE OFFICERS, YOU KNOW, ON THE SCENE.

HE DID NOT MAKE A MOVE ON THEM.

AND BY ALL, YOU KNOW, INTENTS -- YOU LOOK AT HIM, HE'S A PROFESSIONAL FIGHTER, IF HE WANTED TO, HE COULD HAVE JUMPED IN, BUT HE'S, LIKE, NO, I'M A CONTROLLED PERSON, AND I THINK THAT WAS A LOT OF THE TYPES OF FEEDBACK THAT I HEARD FROM COMMUNITY MEMBERS WAS THEY FELT A VISCERAL REACTION LIKE DONALD WILLIAMS AND OTHERS WHO JUST FELT LIKE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SPEAKS TO THEM IN WAYS THAT IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO PUT THEIR FINGERS ON.

>> Cathy: ALL RIGHT.

[ OVERLAPPING CONVERSATION ] >> Cathy: ACTUALLY, WE'RE OUT OF TIME, FRED, I'M SO SORRY.

IT'S BEEN GREAT TO SEE ALL OF YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK.

>> Eric: THANKS.

♪♪♪ >> CATHY: IT'S MINNESOTA HISTORY QUIZ TIME.

>> OOH.

>> Cathy: HERE'S THE QUESTION WE ASKED YOU TO ANSWER LAST WEEK.

LISTEN CLOSELY.

IN THE LATE 1990S THE PUBLICATION "ADVERTISING AGE" MADE A LIST OF THE TOP TEN ADVERTISING ICONS OR BRAND MASCOTS OF THE 20TH CENTURY.

THE LIST INCLUDED THREE AD ICONS WITH MINNESOTA CONNECTIONS.

WE WANT YOU TO TELL US THE TOP-RANKED MINNESOTA ICON ON THE LIST.

WE THEN TOLD YOU NOT TO HOP ON THE WEB TO FIND THE ANSWER.

WHAT WAS THE TOP-RANKED MINNESOTA ICON FEATURED IN THIS "ADVERTISING AGE" LIST IN THE 1990S?

IT TURNS OUT THE AD AGE LIST HAD THREE MINNESOTA ICONS OR MASCOTS IN ITS TOP TEN LIST.

SO THE WRONG ANSWERS WERE PLENTIFUL.

>> Cathy: NICE SINGING, MARY.

NO.

THE PILLSBURY DOUGH BOY DID MAKE THE TOP TEN LIST, BUT IT WASN'T THE HIGHEST-RANKING MINNESOTA ICON.

WHAT WAS?

WE RECEIVED MANY RIGHT ANSWERS, BUT WE DECIDED TO REWARD JUDY FROM DARWIN.

>> Cathy: GOOD SINGING THERE.

THANK YOU, JUDY.

THE JOLLY GREEN GIANT WAS RANKED HIGHER THAN THE DOUGHBOY OR BETTY CROCKER IN THAT 1999 LIST.

THE MARLBORO MAN TOPPED THE LIST.

RONALD MCDONALD CAME IN SECOND.

THE JOLLY GIANT WAS THIRD.

GREEN GIANT VEGETABLES, FORMERLY ASSOCIATED WITH PILLSBURY AND GENERAL MILLS, IS NOW OWNED BY B AND G FOODS.

OH, YEAH, THE GIANT'S HO HO HO TAGLINE HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE 1961.

DO YOU HAVE A MINNESOTA HISTORY YOU THINK WE MAY NOT HAVE ASKED?

LET US KNOW BY CALLING US AT 651-229-1430.

OR ZIP US AN EMAIL AT ALMANAC@TPT.ORG.

>>> WE HAVE JUST ENOUGH TIME FOR A CLOSING TUNE.

THIS WEEK IN 2016 THE TWIN CITIES GAY MEN'S CHOIR JOINED US FROM THE TPT STREETSPACE.

WE CAN'T WAIT UNTIL WE CAN HAVE LIVE MUSIC AGAIN IN THIS BUILDING.

LET'S GO OUT TO THE CHOIR SIGNING AS WE GET READY TO ROLL CREDITS.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK.

♪♪♪ Captioned by: Paradigm Reporting & Captioning www.paradigmreporting.com >> "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY MEMBERS OF THIS PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION.

SUPPORT IS ALSO PROVIDED BY· GREAT RIVER ENERGY: PROVIDING ELECTRICITY AND RELATED SERVICES TO 28 CO-OPS IN MINNESOTA.

A TOUCHSTONE ENERGY COOPERATIVE.

DELTA DENTAL OF MINNESOTA FOUNDATION: INVESTING $25 MILLION TO IMPROVE DENTAL CARE FOR MINNESOTANS IN NEED.

DELTADENTALMN.ORG/TPT.

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ENBRIDGE: CONNECTING MINNESOTANS WITH ENERGY FOR OVER 70 YEARS.

MORE AT ENBRIDGE.COM/LINETHREEUS.

AND EDUCATION MINNESOTA: THE VOICE FOR PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS AND STUDENTS THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

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"ONE GREATER MINNESOTA" REPORTING ON "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE OTTO BREMER TRUST, WHOSE MISSION IS INVESTING IN PEOPLE, PLACES AND OPPORTUNITIES IN THE UPPER MIDWEST.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT COMES FROM THE MINNEAPOLIS FOUNDATION, INSPIRING AND ENGAGING IN ACTION TO REALIZE STRONG, VIBRANT COMMUNITIES, AND FROM THE BLANDIN FOUNDATION.

>> "ALMANAC" IS A PRODUCTION OF TWIN CITIES PBS FOR THE STATIONS OF MINNESOTA PUBLIC TELEVISION ASSOCIATION.