Coming up on American Black Journal, Chief James Craig is here to talk about heading up the Detroit Police Department for the past eight years and why he decided that now is the time to retire.

Plus, we'll talk about the impact of George Floyd's murder on policing one year later.

It's a conversation you don't want to miss.

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American Black Journal starts right now.

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♪♪ Welcome to American Black Journal.

I'm Stephen Henderson and as always, I'm glad you've joined us.

May 25th is going to mark the one year anniversary of George Floyd's murder by Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin.

Floyd's death sparked worldwide protests against police brutality and racism and it ignited calls for police reform.

Chief James Craig led the Detroit Police Department through the Black Lives Matter demonstrations and was criticized by a lot of activists for the way he handled the protests.

Now, after eight years as the city's top cop, Chief says he's going to retire on June 1st and that he may be eyeing a run for governor as a Republican.

Craig sat down for a wide-ranging with me.

Congratulations on your -- Thank you.

Announced retirement.

You've had a really amazing and distinguished career as an officer not just here but in Los Angeles and Cincinnati.

Tell me why now is the right time?

Well, you know, 44 years, and certainly, as I said during my press conference, I'm not being forced out.

You know, I can honestly say and I don't know many people that can say it but in 44 years I haven't had a bad day.

Now I've had days, of course, that were challenging but certainly love the work as a public servant.

This is something I'm very passionate about.

You know, I've had the good fortune of starting in this profession at 19 years old.

It wasn't something that I thought I would do.

I kind of landed in the profession but really making a difference in people's lives made a difference for me.

You know, I had to set a goal early in my career in becoming a chief of police and one of the reasons, when I came in, I was met with discrimination.

That's when Detroit was integrating the police department to better reflect our community.

And I've never felt good being met with discrimination and I called my dad and says, you know, I don't really think I can do this.

And he told me, he says, you know, in order to change an institution, you need to become part of it.

And that resonated with me but more than just that, I knew I could have a limited amount of changing something as a police officer but I did know that if I one day become the chief of police, I can have large scale impact on the profession.

And that's something that I've realized and when I talk about 44 years, Stephen, one thing that certainly I look at the last eight years here in Detroit, this was the absolute best time of my policing career.

To come full circle, starting in Detroit and ending in Detroit, really makes a difference.

I think that because of my passion entering into a new chapter, this is not over for me.

I just may go in a different direction, so I -- I know want to talk about it, but -- Let's talk about that.

You say that politics might be next?

I'm evaluating that as an option.

Certainly I'm evaluating a number of options, but I am most passionate about public service and what I see today that's most concerning, not just by me but so many, it's just the division we see today in our country, in our state, and we are one.

This is about being unified and we have to do better as a nation and certainly as a state and so I'm most passionate about making that type of difference so again, I'm not saying what my next chapter will look like.

Right.

That will be the first time I'm unemployed.

(both chuckling) So but you have said some things that I think are worth probing here a little bit.

You said that you're a republican and a conservative republican and look, I wasn't surprised by that, I have figured that you were a republican for some time -- Well, I think a lot of people suspected.

I mean, if you end up on the cover of the NRA Magazine and you're supporting the second amendment.

People are gonna say that, so -- But I gotta tell you, I mean I grew up, most of my life I was a democrat.

I want to ask you, though, what does that mean in 2021?

Conservative republican.

What does that mean to you when you say that?

Well, you know, Stephen, what I'm not going to on your show because I know I get pulled into, or at least there's an effort to pull me into a political discourse, I think at this point I'm reflecting on my 44 years and I thought we would talk about that.

Some of the challenging that our profession is facing today.

I think that's more important to do that.

I think your viewers would want to know more about that and at the appropriate time, if in fact a decision is to go in that direction, then we can have all the conversation.

I'm sure you'll invite me back -- Oh, sure, of course.

Well, but you were just about to say that you grew up in a way that and I don't want to finish the sentence for you?

Well, you know, I grew up, my family's democrat, I was a democrat.

Moved to LA, democrat.

And certainly as I matured and started to see the world very differently, my views changed.

But I don't really want to get into a lot of that and I think having been in a number of places, you left out that I was the Chief of Police in Portland, Maine.

Right, right.

And Portland, Maine really was a turning point.

Well, even before that slightly, but it was a turning point.

And I will share this story because I think it's fitting for your viewers because we already talked about the second amendment.

I'm not going to go into a lot of detail but coming out of Los Angeles, it was an act of God for anybody to get issued a carry and conceal weapon permit.

It just didn't happen.

It was very rare.

And so when I became a chief in Portland, Maine, I remember the day, it was a Friday, and on that Friday I had, I found out that the Chief of Police is responsible for signing concealed pistol licenses.

So I had a stack on my desk and I do what I instinctively knew based on, you know, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny.

Mm-hm.

And so my staff came in and said, Chief, do you know where you are?

And I said, I'm in Portland, Maine.

He said, well, Chief, we like our guns.

I said, okay, I know I'm not in the state of Texas.

He said we like our guns and we believe law-abiding citizens should have the right to carry.

And he said, have you noticed something else, Chief?

It's safe in Portland.

We have low crime here.

Our crime is low because criminals know one thing.

There are a lot of law-abiding citizens in our state, in our city, that know there's a likelihood that they're carrying concealed.

And so I went home, I reflected.

It made perfect sense to me and that was the beginning.

So that's how I, you know, really -- And that set you on a path to -- To explore and so I won many great friends in Maine.

Certainly nothing changed when I transitioned from Maine to Cincinnati where I was also the chief.

Here, back.

You know, as a Chief of Police or as a police officer, when we're performing our duty, we don't wave a flag of whether we're a democrat or republican.

You know, it's about serving people, serving with integrity, with fairness, and politics should never come into it and so I just never made those distinctions because it wasn't important and I've always believed in enforcing the law impartially.

So you leave at really critical time in policing.

Yes.

The conviction of Derek Chauvin in Minneapolis, the continued witnessing of, you know, police officers killing African American citizens under circumstances where you can't really explain why they were doing that.

I wonder what you make, though, of this moment.

Is it time for significant change?

Fundamental reform in policing?

Well, let me just say this and I've been very vocal, one bad police shooting, and I make a distinction, one bad police shooting is absolutely one too many.

As you may know, Stephen, I was the first major city chief in America to come out publicly and call Chauvin's actions in the death of Mr. Floyd murder.

I also distinctly said that that department after seeing the evidence had enough probable cause to make an arrest for murder.

It's just like any other crime that's committed.

We respond to different calls for service.

We go there and if there's evidence or if there's probable cause to believe that a crime was committed, we make the arrest.

What was different about this and this is how distrust comes about when the public says, well, this officer's being treated differently, and so I was very vocal on that.

But I also make the distinction and this is what's troubling today, a couple of things, we paint the profession with one broad brush.

We say that policing, not me, but some will say, policing is systemically racist.

And so again, we're broad brushing the profession.

We're putting everybody in the same bucket and I will argue that it's not the same.

When I look at the Detroit Police Department, a police department that was under federal oversight for roughly 13 years, we knew there were problems in the Detroit Police Department apparent in practice of excessive force, confinement issues, that's real, and so out of it, and you know, Steve, after one year of my tenure, we successfully closed that out.

Right.

And we did it because I had a different approach and the approach was simple.

I held the bosses accountable to make sure we were engaging in constitutional policing.

What has always been wrong in a lot of departments, they focus on the police officer and not as much on those who lead and manage those work entities.

Very different approach and I had the good fortune when I was in Los Angeles and we were under federal oversight for a number of years, it wasn't until an outside police chief, then Bill Bratton, who was the chief of New York, of Boston transit, who came to LA and he held all of us who were in management level positions accountable to ensure that our officers were in compliance with the things that were mandated.

So it's just that simple.

But those departments, like in Detroit, who are successfully completed and got out from under federal oversight, we've adapted what's considered best policing practices.

All the things we hear about reform today, much of it, most of it, we do.

I gotta tell you, we were one of the few departments that had an integrated body-worn camera system and actually members of the department approached myself and other leaders in the department, we want to try this out.

Now we were already in the process of looking at it.

We wanted to be the first big city but we did something that no one else did, we had an integrated system so that the officers had the body-worn camera and the in-car video that worked in sync.

I know it's complicated without going into a lot -- It is, I mean, so, the thing is, when people say that policing is systemically racist, what they're saying is that the institution itself is tilted towards a bias against Black skin, against equality for African Americans, and I don't think they're saying there aren't exceptions to that.

I don't think they're saying that there aren't departments that have come a tremendously long way.

I think, though, I would push back in this sense, Stephen, that we should take a surgical look.

I'm not suggesting and I certainly don't want your viewers to think that racism does not exist.

It does exist.

Sure.

In some instances, it's widespread in certain entities, organizational entities, maybe some police departments.

One could take a surgical look and say, we believe that this department based on a pattern and a practice of behaviors is systemically racist.

But to paint the entire profession is broad and I've worked, as you indicated, I've worked in a number of different organizations, police departments, I myself saw racism firsthand, I know what it looks like.

I'll take you back to a time here when we have the issue that emanated out of the sixth precinct with two Caucasian officers and it was the meme or the posting of a discriminatory remark when they talked about someone they had encountered, it said Black Girl Magic.

And so we took appropriate action.

Those two officers were ultimately dismissed from the department, but just not stopping there, I wanted to understand the sixth precinct.

Why was there a level of comfort that this behavior could go on, and then we start learning that there other patterns of discriminatory treatment internally as well as externally, and so we launched, it had never been done, an environmental audit on the sixth precinct.

Out of that, we did find some patterns.

Out of that, we put a new command team and we surgically removed where the problem areas were.

So, but that doesn't reflect every Detroit police station.

Right.

And it certainly did not reflect every member of the sixth precinct that was assigned there.

So you'll find some issues.

Yeah, and I know we're going to run out of time with you but I do want to get you to talk about where we are with crime in Detroit which is, of course, your primary concern as Chief.

It was a pretty bad summer, last summer, largely and then the pandemic made things even worse.

And we're still in the pandemic, and let me -- Where do you leave, though, where do you leave the department and the city in terms of lowering violent crime?

We have seen a steady reduction since I've arrived.

As of today, overall crime, which includes property and violent, we're down 7%.

We're now in the second quarter.

We're down 7%.

Now I can't take a victory lap because one thing that we've seen here in Detroit like every large city, particularly New York, which was lauded as the safest large city in America, the one thing that we've seen in all these major cities is increased violence, homicides and shootings, and so the better question is, what's driving the violence in all these major cities?

Right.

Is it the police?

Can we step back and say all these police departments have ineffective policing?

Well, there are a number of issues, Stephen.

Now, I'll break it down, so we talked a little bit about the pandemic.

Certainly we know the pandemic, certainly, and the significance that it's had on mental health, I am certain that that plays a roll.

The other thing that we see not only here in Detroit but we've seen in other cities like Houston is how bail reform is applied.

I've been very vocal.

We have a number of suspects right now because, and they, yes, are entitled to a speedy trial, there's an expectation of innocence, but when you take someone who let's say has a history of violence and release on electronic monitoring or release them at no bail and they've already been charged with pre-meditated murder, Stephen, I'd call that a problem and it's a big problem and to dismiss it and say, well, only the police can fix this, we're part of what's called the criminal justice system.

And I get the pandemic, I get that courts were closed, but what we never talk about, Steve, and it's so unfortunate, we never talk about the victims, we never talk about the family of victims, and we certainly don't talk about those who live in vulnerable communities, who just happen to be more likely those people of color.

We don't talk about that, we ignore it, but instead some who sit in seats of influence, and I didn't say leadership, seats of influence, peddle the nonsense that let's just dismantle the entire profession, let's just do away with incarceration, and I've got to tell you, Steven, that's misguided, it's reckless, and it does not speak with the majority of folks who live in our city.

But you know -- I've talked -- You also know about, we've talked about this, you realize that there is an over-incarceration problem and that it disproportionately affects us.

Look, I've got to tell you something.

I don't disagree in part.

I was part of, having been in this business 44 years, this so-called the war on drugs.

You know about it, it was a miserable failure, and it did certainly have more of an impact on families of color.

It was an abject failure.

I'm not saying there's not room for looking at incarceration and room for addressing bail issues.

If you want to let out individuals who have a history of committing property crimes, someone who's afflicted with drugs, that's a very different situation, but when you just apply a broad brush and you give no thought, no thought to the criminal history of someone, that directly impacts violence.

So when you look at Chicago, what's going in Chicago?

Same thing in Detroit in terms of releasing individuals back into our communities that probably shouldn't be released.

Houston, Texas, same issue.

What's going on in New York right now?

So if we want to put our head in the sand and act like these issues don't matter, if we want to just ignore victims, because it's not about the victims.

No one wants to talk and advocate for them and I am unapologetic when I stand up for victims.

I'm unapologetic when I stand up for the vast majority of police officers who go out and put their lives on the line every night and stand with them and for them and I'm also unapologetic that when an officer crosses that line, when they commit a crime, I'll be the first one to take swift and appropriate action.

Unapologetic for that.

So if you want to see reform, first you have to make sure that the person leading the agency is the right person, critically important, but there are so many factors, so before we start pointing fingers at law enforcement, let me remind you throughout this pandemic the Detroit Police Department didn't close.

The courts were closed.

Right.

Police departments still went out and as of, I'll give you a great example, and through this pandemic, look, we know there's been an increase in violence.

Increase in shootings, homicides, primarily the weapon has been a gun.

So we've focused on individuals who are illegally carrying guns.

We have on the average probably arrested anywhere between 60 to 100 per week for illegally carrying weapons and giving credit to the prosecutors, 75% of those individuals are charged with the crime.

With the next step, the courts release them until they can have, I think we have right now, Stephen, roughly 2000, in excess of 2000 felony gun cases waiting to be heard in court.

So you don't think those issues make a difference in why violence is spiking not just here in Detroit but around this country?

This is not a conservative or liberal view, this is a view from an individual who is a practitioner of 44 years and I really know and I speak for so many Detroiters and this resonates with Detroit.

Yeah, okay, James Crag, it is always a pleasure to talk with you even when we don't see eye to eye.

You're a, I really appreciate the time as always.

And I appreciate you, Stephen, and I think as an example in closing, wouldn't it be nice that it's okay to disagree but do it in a respectful way?

Absolutely.

And there are things that I can take away from you of course and there's things that you can take away from me.

Yeah.

And we leave shaking hands because we all want the same thing.

That's going to do it for us.

Thanks for watching.

You can find out more about our guest at americanblackjournal.org and you can always connect with us on Facebook and on Twitter.

We'll see you next time.

♪♪ Announcer 1: From Delta faucets to Behr paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Announcer 2: Support also provided by the Cynthia and Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit Public TV.

Announcer 1: The DTE Foundation proudly supports 50 years of American Black Journal in covering African America history, culture, and politics.

The DTE Foundation and American Black Journal, partners in presenting African American perspectives about our communities and in our world.

Announcer 2: Also brought to you by AAA Nissan Foundation, Ally, Impact at Home, UAW Solidarity Forever, and viewers like you.

Thank you.

♪♪