Indiana Lawmakers is produced by WFYI in association with Indiana Public Broadcasting Stations.

Additional support is provided by the Indy Chamber, working to unite business and community to maintain a strong economy and quality of life.

While k-through-12 and higher education receive considerable attention each session.

Early childhood education and care play an equally significant role in the health of our communities.

Access to high quality, reliable and affordable childcare expands the economic opportunities for parents while simultaneously providing young children with a safe environment to learn and grow.

According to Early Learning Indiana's Closing the Gap report, early childhood development has improved in the state over the past few years by examining the capacity, quality, affordability and choice of childcare providers available to Hoosiers.

The report gives each county a score of 0 to 100.

This is referred to as the Early Learning Access Index.

Counties with scores between 60 and 80 merely provide, quote, moderate access to child care, whereas scores above 80 are defined as adequate.

In 2024, 71% of counties had inadequate access, down from 86% in 2021.

Now, these scores vary wildly, with some counties lagging far behind others.

Statewide, the average score sits at 63.8.

Indiana does not offer a universal preschool program, does not require kindergarten enrollment, and does not require children to enroll in school until the age of seven, while grants are available through the state.

Funded.

On My Way pre-K for eligible low income families, that program is not universal.

Seeking to increase the number of options for families, the state has removed various regulations for childcare providers between the low wages of childcare workers and high costs for parents and guardians.

Many argue that early childhood development in the state of Indiana has room for improvement and a need for more investment.

I am pleased to welcome Democratic Representative Carey Hamilton of Indianapolis, Republican Representative Lori Reaves of Marion, and Democratic Senator Rodney Pol Jr of Chesterton.

Thank you all for being here.

Let's start generally, with some general things and we'll get to the specifics, but let's start with the professor of social work.

You've spent 35 plus years in the field helping families deal with all sorts of challenges.

Explain to me how we got here.

I know the birds and the bees, but why?

Child care didn't seem to be an issue I heard much about when I was a kid in Indianapolis growing up.

I just think the financial strain that families are facing, and the number of families that have both parents working outside of the home.

You know, when I was a little girl, my mom became a single mom when I was six months old, when my dad was killed in the Vietnam War.

And at that point, she had my dad's death benefit.

But at that point it ran out.

And so she became, a part time employee at Kmart.

And I remember distinctly her telling me later on in my life that finding good childcare for my brother and I was the reason why she made some, some hard choices that that deeply impacted my life.

And so I believe that we are here because we have people that in order to make ends meet, in order to feed their families and provide clothes for their children, they are they are both working outside of the home and childcare than is needed.

Ron Paul, do you buy this notion?

It's it's an economics issue.

It's a family and sociology issue.

I. I wholeheartedly agree.

I mean, to your point, I think folks are staying in the workforce longer.

So those, you know, some of those folks, they may have retired earlier.

and then you just have working parents.

Both parents are working.

you know, and so it becomes very, very difficult, as opposed to the nuclear family that, you know, previously there may have been just one breadwinner, you know, that made enough that could support a family of four.

Well, one stayed at home, stayed with the kids, particularly the younger kids.

The other part of that, too, is, you know, we've changed, you know, kind of how we operate and, you know, these businesses.

I don't think that model that was previous that, you know, doesn't quite fit.

So it's harder for people to make money.

It's harder for them to keep, employees, you know, when these childcare centers, you know, at an affordable rate, it's just hard for them to stay in business and so that's at least what we've heard from them.

And some of the regulations that have been kind of archaic tied to them, have kind of really constrained them as well.

And so from our point in the legislature, I think that's kind of what the point of is a lot of this new legislation that you're seeing tries to address.

how bad are we?

Carey Hamilton Vis-A-Vis other states.

what's your gut on how bad we are?

Are we worse off, or are we doing something wrong that other states aren't?

I think a lot of states are dealing with a child care crisis.

We are amongst the worst.

as far as access to affordable childcare, this is a national issue.

And that's why I was, you know, there was a national summit in D.C. that I was able to attend, and learn from some other states.

And what I've seen is that, states are tackling this with public investment.

so, for example, well, let me step back and just mention the economic impact for Indiana.

The state Chamber of Commerce last summer commissioned a study that told us $4.2 billion, are extracted from our economy each year because of lack of access to childcare.

that's a big economic hit to our state, right?

and we also know that's that's not good for families.

So we have a child care crisis that's hurting our economy.

It's hurting our families.

It's making us a less family friendly state.

I was really intrigued by the work in New Mexico.

Several states have been leaders in recent years, and New Mexico, has made significant investments.

And the governor of New Mexico, Michelle Lujan Grisham, has really framed her investments, her state's investments in child care around economic development.

They realize they've they've heard from their employers, as we have with our state chamber of Commerce, that childcare access is reducing the pool of workers.

and that's very much true in Indiana.

So in New Mexico, they've tied some of their economic development incentives to provision of child care for employees.

they actually passed a ballot initiative that says all families will have access to affordable childcare.

In some cases, that means it's going to be free for children for for families, others it's subsidized.

and that's really making a big dent in the crisis in their state.

should we rely on statistics or do constituents?

Do you just hear this?

I mean, how where does it what resonates on your, radar in terms of just how significant this issue is?

I just think data matters.

And I think we have to look at peer reviewed studies and what they say.

I think we have to look at data from other states.

And what what are the reported incidents of children not being safe, you know, and why.

But I also think we have to look at personal stories and we have to listen to people.

I think the experts are those who are currently providing child care.

I really enjoyed getting to connect with people that have testified on the child, Family and Human Services Committee, those that are providing the current daycare, the current child care, and how do they feel about about ratios and about what is needed in this space?

As a social worker, what I really learned was how to bring everyone to the table and having a mixed group that can really speak into this issue from their life experience, from their perspective, and come up with solutions that that help the problems that you just heard, but also focus on the well-being and the safety of children.

Yeah, I mean, the slots, certainly that's one aspect of the challenge.

A lot of other statistics, certainly we could find another one.

I think that's pretty telling.

And you all touched on this earlier about the economic impact on families for the median household income upwards of 20%.

And if you're a minimum wage, single parent.

I don't know if anybody can even do this.

You're spending essentially 96% of your income on childcare.

Which sort of begs the question, why I work at all?

I mean.

You I mean, you talking numbers here.

I think it's about it's over $1,000.

it's a it's over $1,000 a month for under for an infant, for infant care.

It's about 800 for, for, a child for an up.

And so, you're talking huge amounts of money, you know, folks that will basically spend the majority of their paycheck, and particularly if you're minimum wage, I think the stat is about 43 weeks of the year.

You're going to have to spend just on childcare if you make minimum wage.

That's I mean, it's just it's not doable.

So, you know, and I think our state has, you know, we've we've looked at this and we've looked at we've heard these stories.

I served on a, on a summer study committee that was chaired by Senator Charbonneau a couple of summers ago.

And he started it with, I think, probably one of the best quotes that I've heard in the legislature since I've been there, he said.

We have the very first thing he said is we have to treat child care as a part of our infrastructure and I remember I was sitting in the front row and I just turned around and I was like, all right, let's go.

I mean, that's that's what we have to talk about.

And I think there's a lot of different organizations that have really kind of, really focused on that and people that are putting their money where their mouth is on this issue.

for example, you know, we've got the ready grants and, you know, the Northwest Indiana Forum in Northwest Indiana, they're kind of a, an arbiter of of a lot of those funds.

They've made that a major, major focus because of working families, because they know that, hey, in order to help our employers get these people in the door, you know, filling out job applications, they got to make sure that they got somewhere to send their kids.

And so, yeah, I mean, that's really it.

explained how you view that it's integral to our economy and to the, infrastructure that we need for a healthy workforce.

That's right.

Yeah.

So, I mean, childcare truly is critical human infrastructure for our states.

if parents don't have a place, a safe place to take their children, they can't work.

That hurts our economy, that hurts those families and their income and their ability to thrive in our state.

Right.

I think about this issue, from thinking as from a policymaker, that we need to be very intentional about thinking about our children and families as the state's role.

What is the state's role from cradle to K and beyond.

So infant child care we've heard extremely expensive and went one recent estimates show we were the most expensive in the country for infant care.

and that's even if you have access to it, let alone can you afford it.

many of our communities, you just can't find it.

and then up through kindergarten.

So pre-K is an area where we could make a big dent in high quality, environments for children that are about four years old.

Right?

Many states, all but five other states have invested more in pre-K than we have in Indiana.

And the the benefits of just that piece of the puzzle making that investment.

If we were to ensure that all Hoosier four year olds had access to high quality pre-K, that means families childcare, at that age is, no longer problem, but also.

At least during certain parts of the year.

Yes, that's right, that's right.

And before and after school care is critical too.

That's part of this puzzle.

but we think about the outcomes for those kiddos and all of the kids in a classroom when kids come to kindergarten prepared to learn, that means they've been they've had the social exposure.

They've had the basic learning building blocks that you get in pre-K. All of the kids in that classroom have a better chance to thrive because they're all prepared.

There's less teacher time on the kids who came in having never held a crayon or a pencil.

Never.

Right trying to write their name.

when kids are ready to learn, students thrive.

That plays out for those kids in particular, the ones who wouldn't have access at all to that early learning they achieve higher education levels in their lifetime.

They are less likely to be in the criminal justice system.

They will pay more in taxes in their lifetime because they're more successful.

Because of that state investment.

And of course, and to this point, that's been a step too far for, the General Assembly for, I presume, primarily financial, reasons.

But there have been steps taken.

you all alluded to this, because of the task force, the chairman of chaired and other initiatives last year, there was a lot of legislation enacted on this.

And if I had to boil it down, you know, generally speaking, they they were designed to make sure there were more facilities by, changing the the numbers of students that were allowed or young people that were allowed in care, making, child care delivery more attractive to the people doing the work so they could they could actually qualify for assistance and benefits in a way that they might not have before.

and then changing the age instead of 21, you could be 18 to be a supervisor or 16 or 17 to be working with the so-called school age kids who were 5 to 15. as long as you have, an eight, you know, the elder statesman of 18, sort of looking over your shoulder.

How's that working?

I think we have to look at how we take our young high school students that are interested in being in this field as a social professor, the number of students I had that wanted to do their field placements in the area of children was much higher than any other population, and so we have young people that are interested in being childcare workers and going into early childhood and being teachers, social workers, nurses.

I can think of lots of professions where as a high school student, being in a daycare center, in a preschool, doing some school to work type of experiences could help us meet the ratios without additional cost to the state.

I think that there's creative ways to solve this problem that aren't necessarily creating a financial cost to our taxpayers from the state level, but getting our our elderly involved, our churches involved, bringing people into this solution focused idea of how do we meet this need with with people who could get experience, not necessarily having to be paid, but that real life experience with children is invaluable.

Ronnie Paul.

You're an attorney, former city attorney.

You think in terms of liability and what could go wrong?

That's what you think about when you get up in the morning.

What happens when something goes wrong here?

When you have you've you've lowered the age standards cutoffs.

fewer qualifications, larger numbers of students in the care of these individuals.

Is this just something or are we all sort of holding our breath, waiting for something bad to happen?

No, I think we you can tell that it's it's measured in how how much we're cutting the regulations to help these child care centers.

And I think that, you know, year by year, you're starting to see kind of okay, well, we've we've done this nothing because, you know, we haven't seen the sky fall essentially.

I think that what what because of that, because of the goodwill that I think that the legislatures had towards these centers to help them, you know, with their, you know, get more students and get more workers.

And I think what our hope is, is ultimately that this is going to be done responsibly, that we're not going to have 15 year olds watching 15 year olds, if you have 15 year olds that they need to be watching age appropriate, students because, you know, to that point, all you take, all it takes is essentially one bad incident where, you know, we have somebody that basically, you know, does something wrong with what they've been provided as far as the regulations or the cuts and regulations, where everybody runs back to the legislature and says, you guys mess this up.

You can see the headline now for this legislation that was enacted last year.

This child would not have been injured, not have been.

Yeah.

Preyed upon whatever that they had complete the sentence.

And so I think it's upon the child care centers to to act responsibly with, you know, the regulation, you know, the relief and regulation that they're getting.

So, I mean, so far, obviously nothing we haven't seen anything, but I think that there were I was, you know, one person in particular that when I start, when you start hearing what regulations you cut, you get a little skeptical.

But when you've heard testimony after testimony after testimony as to, okay, here's how this is going to actually work in practice.

It's eases your fears a little bit.

And so, you know, what we know is that something has to change because there was there's a lot of archaic, language that has been, you know, kind of, regulating these these, you know, these facilities for a very long time.

And they're saying, hey, we can't operate like this anymore.

Nobody does.

You know, none of these other states do as well.

So we're paying attention to what's happening in other states and really kind of seeing how that's going to apply here.

So and one of the bills again, that in all likelihood will, be enacted this session, in addition to doing some of the things I just mentioned, would essentially go further with some of these standards by tying it to other states.

The neighboring states that Indiana going forward could not have in terms of age limits, in terms of cap staff ratios, those sorts of things, rules or guidelines that are more stringent than Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio and Illinois.

Is that sort of the proverbial race to the bottom here?

here's what I'll say.

I think the last few years I've coauthored many of these bills where we've tried to, I think, cautious play, make sure our regulations fit today's reality, so that we're keeping kids safe and providing reducing a little pressure on the system, maybe hopefully making a little easier to open up a facility here or there.

For example, one of the, policies where I think about to become law in Indiana is facilitating multi-site operations for an operator.

Different bill from year.

But also, yes, it's likely to be.

So.

so I think these are all good things, but I also believe that the reality is they're they're they help a system that's really still under crisis.

And it will be a reality that the majority of Hoosier families won't be able to afford the little bit of extra access that might be provided because of these changes.

So going back to the idea of investments, just respectfully disagree a little bit.

I do think that there is a state investment role here, strategic economic development, investments in childcare access and infrastructure across our state to make it more affordable and accessible to families.

And, you know, we've made a lot of major economic development investments in the last few years with huge price tags, huge, a portion, a tiny portion of what we put into the leap district, for example.

and I wonder every day, did we need to put half billion plus into that?

Could we.

Could we.

Could we have made just as big of progress there?

I think it's a good overall project for sure, with $300 million in public dollars.

Right.

That huge investment, a very targeted, narrow set of policies around childcare investment could go a very long way to solve this economic development and family crisis in our state.

And I think we need to be considering that.

And you mentioned the multi-site licensing.

There are organizations such as the Y that testified that this is a great thing because it might have taken 3 to 6 months to get a license for each location before now.

If you have the license and you're reputable, you can open one under that same license in a matter of weeks.

Other bills this session, and you're on.

Some of them would deal with foster making sure that foster families are are part of the mix here.

Another one.

that pastime.

Well, I think it passed unanimously.

Both chambers is that school based daycares could, for the first time, contract with a religiously affiliated programs.

Nonprofits.

Right.

Good steps there.

Yeah, I think that they are.

And, you know, our foster parents who are taking foster children into their home now will have 200 waiver slots so that we can make sure that these foster parents are not inhibited by this child care burden, the financial burden that it would take.

And so so I think that was a wonderful step.

I think that there's this balance between, you know, the state's investment and in our community is investment.

You know, I work at Indiana Wesleyan University and they are opening, they have a building and they're going to open a child care facility.

And imagine the the positive impact on our students that can be in that space and then providing some childcare for the employees of the institution.

I think that's the creativity that I, that I am excited about.

Our church, I attend college, Wesleyan Church, they have a daycare just for the church employees.

Right?

People that are rocking the babies of of the staff.

I love that that partnership that helps us all focus on strengthen families and making sure that children are receiving the attention, the care, the nurturing that they need to develop and to to to be able to be ready, as they grow and develop.

And there is a tax, if I'm not mistaken, incentive for employers.

Now, as for the past two years who do offer as Wesley and that type of thing, although I think it was funded with a very modest amount, maybe $2.5 million, that's going to be extended through the end of 2027.

And one of these bills we've just talked about.

But again, is that enough?

I don't know.

We don't know what dollar amount will be assigned to it necessarily.

But is this just chipping away or do employers essentially need to be given the opportunity to offset you open a daycare?

We're going to make the tax incentives there that we keep you whole as a company, offset your costs.

Yeah, I think everything has to be on the table.

you know, it's it's such a big issue because, you know, we've talked about it from the standpoint of workforce, and we've talked about it from the standpoint of making sure that, you know, we're providing families with options.

But I mean, I think the importance on on the actual child, I think is one of the things that we're just not really talking about.

We've passed a ton of bills about, you know, how we're, you know, struggling with reading, reading comprehension and, you know, all of these things where there's such a focus on high quality education and high quality child care and what that means to a child, I really look at that.

We're underfunding essentially what we're doing here, and maybe it's just prioritizing.

So, you know, one of the bills that I had or one of the proposals that we had with the, with the budget was to essentially tie Ccdf funding, which is your child care vouchers to choice vouchers, whatever that eligibility is there.

So we're opening it up more options, you know, so.

Continuum that notion of from cradle to K and.

Beyond.

Well I mean here's here's I guess the point, we have so many folks from from economic development, from the chamber, from all these places saying, you know, this is such an urgent, urgent issue.

But we didn't hear the same thing about necessarily about choice as far as vouchers.

So we're spending a lot of money putting, you know, thousands of dollars into vouchers for students that, you know, or for families that are making 230,000.

But right now, we have a waitlist of about 7600 people waiting for Ccdf vouchers.

And these are families that are making $45,000 or less a year.

So it's really about prioritizing.

And that was your you had a bill didn't get a hearing.

This session, but it was tax credits, right.

For to office, not to employers but to people who need childcare.

Yeah.

And I just want to add, Senator Paul's point here.

So, today in Indiana, if you, want to see if you're eligible for childcare support, you have to fill out or pre-K, you have to fill out about seven different forms, pull all kinds of information together.

And it's very difficult.

And then you may or may not be eligible and have access to childcare in your community if you want.

Now, to go to private school, pay private school tuition on the public dime.

It's a very simple process.

And up to 400% of poverty level is eligible.

That's a family of four right now, about $230,000 household income versus.

45,000 or.

45,000 for Ccdf.

that doesn't make sense to me.

So in the current budget that we're wrapping up now, we spent about $25 million to send those wealthier families to private schools on the public dime, many of whom will actually that 25 million is just to families who are already sending their children to private schools.

So that's new taxpayer dollar that has no benefit and outcomes for our children.

Right.

The current budget that I think it's probably gone now with the fiscal crisis.

We've just been unveiled yesterday.

What the what the new forecast.

But the proposal was to send 100% of children to private school, which would be $183 million for wealthy families to go to private school.

Yeah, I mean, on the public dime.

That was that.

That's the estimate that would be spent.

And that is money that could be spent to solve the childcare crisis and help all of our children have a chance to thrive.

Final word.

We're almost out of time.

Do.

When these kids who are in child care now, when they get through the process and have kids, are they going to be still talking about this?

Or will we have solved the issue?

What a question I want to go back to.

Well, don't go back too far because we are.

Strengthening the family, right?

You know, I have five children.

Daughter's going to have her first baby in August.

They're talking about whether her husband's going to stay home.

How much can grandparents help?

You know, I think we have to look at who can help nurture love, care for these children, support these families.

Because we know that one caring adult has such a profound impact on the life of a child.

There are there are lonely adults.

There are the elderly population.

I would love to see our elderly and our children be in the same space.

I have told my children if I ever need to be in a facility when I am old, give me a baby to rock and I will be just fine.

How do we get creative or solve the problem for our elderly and help our families have the.

Support in the older, member of our society rocking one of the newest members, I would leave it there.

Can't be can't beat that imagery.

And the child would be very loved and nurtured.

Wonderful.

Thank you all for your input in this discussion.

Important topic certainly.

Again, my guests have been Democratic Representative Carey Hamilton of Indianapolis, Republican Representative Lori Goss Reaves of Marion, and Democratic Senator Rodney Pol Jr of Chesterton.

Time now for our weekly conversation with Indiana lawmakers analyst Ed Feigenbaum, publisher of the newsletter Indiana Legislative Insight, part of Hannah News Service.

All right.

If I'm going to make a somewhat strange segue here.

child care takes money.

Their money budget, revenue forecast go.

Bad news.

Yeah.

It's apocalyptic.

John.

People have been around since the 83 recession.

Say that they they've never seen anything like it.

Nobody has.

we've just never had a forecast quite like this.

And on top of the, the really negative forecast.

We've got the question of uncertainty.

And it's going to be just an extremely tough job for the folks that are crafting the budget over the next week to come up with essentially another four point something percent in cuts, because we're talking about, you know, in in the billions, we're not talking about, you know, maybe 100 million, 200 million, whatever.

We're talking about, something that's closer to 2.4 billion that that we're going to have to deal with here.

And that's close to I don't want to say it's impossible, but it's it's going to require some really tough choices.

Does the pain get spread?

You know, the governor early on it asked all the agencies to take essentially a in the preparation of the budget 5% or does this are there some programs that just say, I'm sorry, we got to really yield the wheel, the ax on this?

It's not going to be an across the board set of cuts.

You're going to have to to do some targeted thinking here on this.

And some of the big programs are going to take some of the bigger hits.

But part of the problem here, John, is that in years past, when you've had some degree of uncertainty or the the fiscal leaders have had a problem with, with some of the numbers, they've said, well, we don't necessarily believe that, and we think maybe even a little bit worse.

And with the the day to day, month to month, our our uncertainty, I think you're going to see the fiscal leaders say, you know, on top of everything that we know we need to cut, we're going to have to hold back a little bit more on top of that.

And whether that's going to be, you know, the other 1.5 to 2.5% that we've seen in previous years or something even bigger, we don't know yet.

And I don't know that we can even afford to do that at this point.

So they may have to just go with a forecast to just come back and open things up again.

Fine tune in 2026.

I don't know if I should thank you for your apocalyptic insight, but thank you nevertheless for for sharing your perspective.

I'm not smiling, but thank you, John.

What will Indiana's just sign property tax relief package mean for homeowners, renters, businesses, public schools, local governments?

And most importantly, you on the next Indiana lawmakers.

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