Kentucky.

Tonight, as we continue our focus on issues confronting the Kentucky General Assembly in regular session, I'm Renee Shaw.

Thank you for being with us.

With more than half of the 60 day lawmaking session in the rearview mirror, a lot of crucial issues remain unresolved, and many are hopeful that policies are approved to make child care more accessible, affordable and ensure that kids have a brighter start in school readiness.

Early learning opportunities are also an economic development issue, according to research by the Kentucky Chamber center for Policy and Research.

A stronger child care system could help.

Between 16,000 and 28,000 Kentucky parents start looking for work and join the workforce.

This could generate up to $1.1 billion in new wages and state tax revenues throughout the state.

So here to talk about some legislative proposals on child care that lawmakers are considering this session are State Senator Danny Carroll, a Republican from Paducah and chair of the Senate Families and Children Committee.

State Representative Adam Moore, a Democrat from Lexington.

State Representative Samara Heavrin, a Republican from Litchfield and chair of the House Families and Children Committee.

Doctor Sara Vanover, policy and advocacy director for the Kentucky Youth Advocates and Doctor Charles Aull, vice president of policy for the Kentucky Chamber of Commerce.

We certainly want to hear from you tonight.

You can send us your questions and comments by X. Formerly known as Twitter, at Pub Affairs KET.

Send an email to KY tonight at Keturah or use the web form at Keturah Craig Greenberg KY tonight.

Or you can simply give us a call at one 800 494 7605.

Welcome to all of our guests.

We appreciate you being here.

Before we start talking about some of the policy proposals that these folks on this side have offered up, I want to go to you, Doctor Sarah Vanover.

You've been on this program many times and we've talked about child care, and you've literally written the books about this crisis that is a nationwide crisis.

So help us understand, set the stage for where we are in Kentucky, how that compares nationally to the accessibility of affordable child care, and how dire is it and how and why?

>> Well, in Kentucky, we see many of the same problems that are mirrored at the national level.

Child care is a very fragile structure.

What it costs to care for a child all day long is more expensive than what parents can afford to pay.

So child care programs often subsidize their the tuition that's needed to operate basically by paying lower wages to the staff, which means that staff members who have a critical job of caring for young children every day are not paid a high enough wage in order to have the lifestyle that that they want, particularly for such an important job.

In Kentucky, we have approximately 2000 child care programs, and this ranges from family child care homes, where there may be 4 or 5 children watched by one adult all the way to child care programs that are licensed to care for up to 300 children at one time, depending on the size and the area.

Many of these programs struggle with finding the staffing that they need.

Again, because of a low paying wage.

We have many entry level staff members who might not have the training that they need in order to feel successful at their job, and because of that, we have high turnover rates in child care providers throughout the U.S.

we also see that child care programs are basically trying to break even at the end of the month if they can use tuition to pay their bills and make sure their staff are paid and their essential bills are paid like mortgage, rent, utilities, then they're successful.

But when programs have something come up like a damaged roof or they need to replace an appliance, things of that nature, it can almost be enough to put the program out of business.

So we look at this fragility, and then we also see the desperate need for child care throughout the state.

We know that supply and demand do not match throughout the state.

Many families need child care in order to be part of the workforce, but there may not be child care in their county.

We have a few counties in Kentucky that have no care available, and those families that are working would have to travel to an outside county, or they may find a care with someone they don't know that well, someone who doesn't have background checks in place, someone who hasn't been properly trained.

And so we need to increase access.

But we also have to keep in mind the quality of child care.

We know that these are the most precious assets that we have in the state.

When a mother and father or grandmother are deciding to leave a child in a child care program, they want to know that their child will be healthy and safe and loved.

And so we need to make sure that quality is in place, that children are getting the the play based education that they need, as well as being healthy and safe.

And so all of these things together, we're looking at accessibility, affordability and quality to create the system that we need here in Kentucky and throughout the U.S.

>> Yeah.

And as you've said and written, that the child care industry is the industry that undergirds every single other industry that there is at every other sector.

>> Absolutely.

Without the child care workforce, no other workforce is going to be able to go to work.

They support many more working families.

If you think about in one classroom, you have two adults watching a classroom full of 24 preschoolers in a Kentucky preschool classroom, a four year olds.

That means that all those families are getting to go to work, be part of the community, contribute to income tax, all kinds of other things just because those two adults are there to support those children.

And so it is essential for communities.

It's essential for businesses because businesses lose a lot of productivity when people don't have reliable childcare and their employees aren't coming, or a veteran employee resigns because of lack of child care and they have to hire someone new, train someone new.

And so all of this impacts the community itself, businesses, the families and the child care programs.

They're all factors.

>> And doctor, all I know that you can make the business case for wild child care makes dollars and cents.

Really?

Because we know that you all had done a study and a report issued last year that really talked about the business case for quality child care.

So tell us about some of your findings.

>> Yeah.

No thank you.

Renee.

You know, oftentimes when I've had the pleasure to appear on this program, I'm usually here to talk specifically about the economy and talk through through that with other analysts.

And I think the fact that I'm here today talking about childcare underscores how this issue relates to our economy and to the overall well-being of Kentuckians across the whole state.

I don't think it's any secret that Kentucky has significant challenges with with workforce.

We have one of the lowest rates of labor force participation in the whole country.

And we also know that that's the type of problem that's not going to have a singular solution.

It's going to be one of those things that requires us to bring multiple solutions to the table.

And I think this legislature has done a really great job with that.

Things like funding education, funding higher education, addressing problems like substance use disorder, benefits, cliffs, all those things.

So we really are taking that multi-pronged approach.

Childcare, though, is one of those areas where we can take a really big bite at the apple when it comes to solving our workforce challenges and the way that our folks at the Kentucky Chamber tend to look at this issue is we see it as sort of a two part solution.

On the one hand, you have a lot of parents whose ability to participate in the labor force is dependent upon finding good, safe, quality care for their kids.

And without that, they're simply not going to be able to participate in the workforce.

At the same time, if you have really good, high quality child care, those kids are getting a head start in their education.

It's going to make them more likely to be kindergarten ready, help them be more prepared for the third grade, and that helps us further down the line.

And so you get a really strong ROI.

If we can solve these childcare challenges at the top of the program.

You mentioned a report that we produced last year that really tried to flesh this out, where we tried to put some specific numbers to this, and we looked at a broad range of survey data, as well as a number of other different data sources, to identify that if we could solve our childcare challenges in Kentucky, and by that we mean increased access and make it more affordable.

We're not talking about free, but simply just making it a little bit more affordable.

We can bring upwards of 16,000 to 28,000 adults into the labor force, allowing them to look for work, find employment, hold jobs, and with that comes new wages, State state tax revenue, all these great things that we can bring into those local communities.

And so it definitely is a major economic issue.

And I think that's why you see organizations like the Kentucky, Chamber, our board of directors, which includes some of the top business leaders throughout the state, they they identified this as one of our top priorities.

And so that's why the Chamber has been so heavily invested in it.

>> And one of the data points that was mentioned in your report, that statewide formal child care services are unavailable for up to 56,000 Kentucky children who may potentially need it.

That's a lot of kids.

>> Yeah, that's absolutely right.

I mean, one of the reports that you're referring to is a partnership with the Buffett Early Childhood Institute, where we really tried to quantify that supply and demand gap, that Doctor Vanover was hitting serious problem, especially in our rural areas.

That was a key takeaway with that report, is that if we want to help rural economies throughout Kentucky have have stronger economies, have more people in the workforce, it's going to be particularly important to child care.

>> Yeah.

And it said at 37 rural counties, the report found over half of those children may need formal child care services and they have no option.

So this is a really, really important issue to get our hands around.

And we've got two who are here with us, two lawmakers who have proposed some ideas for that.

And I want to start with chairman, Chairwoman Heavrin, first on House Bill six that is waiting to be assigned to a Senate committee.

It's already passed the House, and it is supposed to help with safe, affordable, accessible child care.

Tell us how what does it do?

>> Yeah.

Thanks, Renee.

Thanks for having me on.

This is my first time, so I'm very excited to be here.

Glad to have you in a room full of friends.

Yes.

You know, I think the big thing with House Bill six is it sets a foundation for affordable, accessible, quality child care.

Just like you said.

We're all talking about the same things.

And I think there are a lot of ways that we can try to solve child care.

This is just one start of trying to figure out how we start doing that.

And so we're looking at all star reform.

We're looking at better data transparency.

We're looking at what actually help when we invest in these specific areas, what actually helps move kids forward.

Because we need to start seeing outcomes.

And, you know, most importantly, I think what House Bill six is, it's a a product of 40 different stakeholders coming together from the Kentucky Collaborative on Child Care and saying, hey, these are things that we think are going to move Kentucky forward, and it comes from all different walks of life, all sides of the political arena.

And I think that's really important when we talk about this.

You know, Senator Carol and I, we both are.

I think the beauty of the General Assembly is we both have different backgrounds.

You know, Senator Carol has has lived experiences.

He's ran a child care facility.

And I feel like I bring the experience of policy and really trying to delve in and see what we're doing at the national level and all of these things.

And, you know, Senator Carol is going to talk about Senate Bill 190, House Bill six, and Senate Bill 190.

They all bring something that's different.

Kentucky we're a leader in child care in Kentucky.

And I think both of these bills help show that.

And it shows our Commonwealth that we're working really hard to solve this issue.

>> So you got to have not just one, but you got to have both of them.

Right.

So they both need to pass in order to get to where you'd like it to be.

I want to I want to hit a term that you said, chairwoman about all star.

Okay.

And this is the quality rating system.

And for those who they've heard of it, they may not fully understand it.

Can you help us understand what that is and why that's important?

And if those stars don't quite line up the way a parent should, what should they do or not do?

>> Yeah.

So it is it's a safety.

It's to make sure that kids are in a safe environment.

And I think it also looks at the quality of the child care center.

Now I'm going to also I'm going to throw this over to Senator Carroll.

I know he has a lot of experience in all stars.

I think what I can say from my perspective, Renee All Stars has been great for what it is, but it's time for us to look forward.

And so part of House Joint Resolution 50 is looking at that.

It's also the regulatory space.

And when we're talking about child care and regulations, that's one of the number one things that we hear about is what can we do to do better.

And you know, I don't know that the All Stars program is giving us the outcomes that we actually need.

It's ten years old.

And, you know, I think this really we're in a period of time where we can look at this and say, what can we do better to help future Kentuckians?

And so that's exactly I'll let Danny get into the weeds of it.

But the point of addressing all stars in House Bill six is, is to start making a change and laying the groundwork for us to be able to do that.

And, you know, being able to look at from a national basis, what does what does our system look like from a state basis, what's working, what's not, but also look at things like outdoor child care.

What can what does that look like for Kentucky?

We've got a lot of nature based, Charles, and I've had a few conversations on that and just laying out some rules of what we can do better.

>> Yeah, yeah.

So I want to go to Chairman Carroll about one the All Stars program, because when you testified about one of your bills, I do believe it was 191.

You talked about that kind of being this snapshot in time, right?

That happens once every three years.

And I kind of took away from that, that you question whether or not that was adequate enough.

So how does your measure address the All Stars program.

And tell us more about your ideas.

>> And I really don't think it is adequate.

It is a one time snapshot.

And then on the off years, you basically submit paperwork to show your compliance with Kentucky All Stars.

And I want to say this upfront, I couldn't have been any prouder than the day that my center became a five star center.

And I War that as a as a badge of honor, and I very much respected that.

But but the reality of the program, when you look at the times in between those, those inspections, the quality and following Kentucky all stars provisions is not so much there.

And I even had a meeting with some providers a couple weeks ago that talked about they actually lose money by participating in that program because of the metrics involved.

And the cost to to be to get 4 or 5 star programs.

So an alternative that I'm offering, and I do want to make sure that everyone is clear that with the alternative that I'm offering, we are looking for ways to to marry these two programs.

Right.

So it's something we'll be looking at in the future.

But what I'm looking at is it will be a pilot project through the University of Kentucky College of Education, and it's based on something that Charles just mentioned and that's kindergarten readiness.

So it kind of joins the the funding aspect.

And we talk a lot about in post-secondary, post-secondary, about performance based funding.

Well, that's exactly what this does.

It's performance based funding for child care based on kindergarten readiness.

And when kids get to a school and they are assessed as being kindergarten ready, a child care provider, whether that be a center, whether that be a family home provider, or whether that be a low income parent, they would have access to a $20,000 award for that child being kindergarten ready.

Or it could be.

>> 20,000 or 2000.

>> 2000.

>> 2000, I thought, was there a committee substitute I wasn't aware of?

>> Oh, I bet that race.

>> Yeah.

>> What's the fiscal note.

>> On that?

Yeah.

That's right.

Yeah.

>> Two $2,000.

>> And that could also be in the form of a refundable tax credit.

So we're looking at options with that.

And in addition to affecting kindergarten readiness which would be the priority, which is a metric we look at and we talk about all the time, this would directly approach that and impact that.

But we looked at, you know, if if more kids come in kindergarten ready.

And I think our overall average right now in the state, when you consider all sources, has dropped to around 46% readiness.

Those kids that go to private centers, they're up 65, 70%.

So there's a wide disparity there.

And I think kids that stay at home, maybe 40%, 43%, if I'm not mistaken.

So it would address those in the kids when they get to school and they're kindergarten ready.

Think about the higher levels of achievement that each child could attain in those first three years that are so critical.

And we know all the metrics.

If a kid can't read by third or fourth grade, where a good likelihood of where they're going to end up when they grow up, and those metrics and those predictions, the data is there.

So it makes perfect sense that we focus on that area.

And that's where we invest our money is is working towards kindergarten readiness while protecting.

And to make sure that we are serving kids with special needs and that we are providing growth and services across the state, and also for for infants and toddlers, which universal public pre-K does not really consider that age group.

And we have to consider that age group.

So a unique, unique idea, a different focus when looking at funding.

>> And this is a statewide effort.

So in the University of Kentucky College of Education would be doing this program and overseeing this program.

How do they determine which centers which families would benefit?

How does that come about?

>> I've just been meeting with Doctor Collins Shepley and Dean pace with the College of Education.

We're starting to talk through those decisions and kind of narrow down, and we want to give this pilot program plenty of time to to be able to get proper and complete data out of it.

So it this, this process would not begin until 20.

It would be August of 27.

So it would give them a full year to prepare and study what groups and how to contact those groups and set up all the parameters for the program and then use two full years to study that would get three and four year olds, and look at the difference in kindergarten readiness rates of those kids that are in centers, family home providers, or being cared for at home.

Right.

>> And and you want a mix of all those different settings.

>> Right.

>> To get an accurate reading to see if this is really a valid concept, we'll need that.

And then when all is said and done, we'll look at ways that maybe we can merge some of this process and some of this, the data into what we're looking at within the Kentucky All-Stars program.

We want to make sure that there's quality care.

We want to make sure that we have a proper focus, and we want to make sure that it addresses all age groups, no matter what decision we come with.

>> And there's $2 million that would go toward this pilot project that would have already been appropriated but was not used.

Is that correct?

>> It was.

>> Part of the Horizons Act, and it was an idea to create some grant funding for incentive and for new programs that are innovations in child care delivery.

I think was the name of the grant program, and this fits that perfectly.

It's just a different way of looking at things.

>> Yeah.

Well, I want to come to you, representative Moore, what do you think about what you've heard?

>> I'd actually like to at least just say directly some concerns that I have.

So I wonder if some of our viewers have those as well.

But this also then gives you an opportunity, Senator Carroll, to address those directly for things I may be missing on, and those watching at home may be missing on, I worry about the gap between the haves and the have nots.

We've seen at the national level that those who are in the top quartile versus those in the bottom quartile are about 30% more likely to be kindergarten ready.

And I looked at Kentucky specific numbers.

And then those who are on the free school lunch program are 21% less likely than those who are not on the free school lunch program.

So I'll worry about those affluent areas of Kentucky where parents can afford to send themselves to send their children to these wonderful child care centers that are getting them kindergarten ready, that those may be the areas where those being paid a little bit better, maybe in urban centers or areas that are more affluent.

And so those bonuses will be going to areas that are already most well off.

And those areas of rural Kentucky where we have child care deserts, that they may not be able to see as much of those grants coming out of it, those credits coming out of it, because we've seen that the high income, low income households already has a huge disparity in that kindergarten readiness.

So does this system essentially, essentially give more to those who already have the most and have less opportunity for those who have the least?

>> Well, let's stop there and have Senator Carroll.

>> It absolutely would be.

>> An equal playing ground and even would lean towards those low income families.

To be eligible for this incentive, you would have to be eligible for child care assistance.

That's the metrics that we would look at in the study itself would be geographically diverse and socioeconomic diverse.

So it it is important that we get a snapshot across the state of families of providers to make sure it is accurate data, but understand that it would focus on low income families if they are keeping their child at home.

And for whatever reason, they haven't been able to get a slot in a center because there are huge waiting lists all over the state.

And if they're unable to get their their child in Head Start, this is an option for them.

And there would be resources that would come with the program that would help them to understand what they needed to do for that child to get that child kindergarten ready.

Using assets like hand the hands program and even some of the staff that currently are assigned to the All Stars program using the assets that we have to to help those families to know what they need to do to prepare those.

>> And that's a good point, because that was going to be my question is, how are parents who were doing that at home going to know how to get their child kindergarten ready?

Right.

But you just answered that as far as the resources are concerned.

So, Representative Moore, is there more that you have?

>> No.

I look forward to.

>> Receiving do a Limerick there.

It just happened naturally.

>> Well, thanks for providing that with my name.

>> It's wonderful.

>> And I look forward to us receiving Senator Carroll's bill when it comes over to the House, because everyone knows there's hundreds of bills filed.

I think we passed 800 in the House today.

And so mine was seven.

Mine was 7.99.

So I know we're over 800.

Yeah.

So once it's in our Chamber, we can really sink our teeth into it and look at it more closely.

He's already given me a firsthand account to some of the things that it's doing.

I really do want to tip my hat, though, to Chairwoman Heavrin and her House Bill six.

I think.

>> It's voted for.

>> I did vote for it.

Passed a bipartisan, not quite unanimous, but still very bipartisan.

Hats off to her.

I know a lot of work went into that, and I think it's going to help people throughout Kentucky, especially look at micro centers and areas that, you know, maybe it's a smaller number of kids, but can we get a little more kids in the door because those margins are so small for those child care workers, like the wages are low, but they cannot charge any more because the parents don't have enough.

So as you look into some of those reforms and House Bill six, I think that could be a game changer, especially in the rural parts of Kentucky that really need a program like this.

>> So let's define, though, what micro centers are the number of kids that could be served, and what do these centers look like and is the quality any different.

>> Yeah I'm going to kick it off and then I'm going to let Sarah and Charles finish up anything I miss.

So micro centers is a new type of child care licensure that would allow for no more than 24 children.

This is really supposed to help rural areas.

Right now we have a cap at ten.

Indiana and Tennessee have both passed legislation on this, and what it does is it allows more flexibility.

The child care centers are still safe, safe for children, but it offers a little more regulatory relief in the sense of maybe it's a little more nontraditional.

You know, I think a big conversation with child care is we're looking at child care for parents with all working hours, 24 hours a day, not just from 8 to 12 or 8 to 2.

And so I think this will help some of those nontraditional, maybe that third shift or the second shift.

You know, Toyota does a great job.

They've got onsite child care and they have 24 hours.

You know, that's one place in Kentucky.

And so this I think, would allow more places to open child care facilities and have that type of flexibility.

Sarah Charles, am I missing?

>> And I do want to real quickly, before either one of you answer when you say some regulatory relief, some people perk up and say, oh, then that means they might be substandard.

So address that for us, doctor.

All.

>> Yeah, sure.

As Chair Heavrin mentioned, these are types of centers that are already allowable in states like Tennessee, Indiana, Tennessee in particular has been doing this for for quite a long while.

And I think one of the ways to think about it is more along the lines of setting aligned regulatory frameworks.

And so if you think about child care that you have these two broad categories, right, you have certified family child care homes, which is child care service provided within someone's home as as a business.

And then you have these larger centers.

Micro centers is something that's supposed to exist sort of in between those worlds.

And as chair having said, they're meant to be more nimble, more flexible, so that they can respond to really specific needs within that community.

So it might be something like the need for third shift or drop in child care, or it might be a place where you just have less density.

And so it's going to work better in a rural area.

And so you structure the regulatory framework to accommodate those, those, those different types of needs.

And so that might include things like no requirements that they have to provide lunch.

Maybe kids can bring food with them.

Maybe they don't have to have a playground on site, but they do have to have rules to allow for that type of activity in some other form.

So they have flexibility there.

You can have things like mixed age groups.

They also under House Bill six would have the ability to request under limited circumstances, unique variances where they might need a little bit more flexibility.

But these would absolutely be high quality and very, very safe facilities for kids to be in.

And we have good examples already in other states that are operating these.

>> Doctor Vanover, anything you care to add?

>> Well, one of the things that would ensure quality is that a micro center can only be opened by someone who already has an operating, high quality child care with at least three years experience.

And I kind of think of it as a satellite site for that child care program.

They know what they're doing, they've established high quality, and now I can open an additional facility with less red tape associated, and it gives kind of a one room schoolhouse feel in the fact that if you have center based care, we always separate our very young children from our older children to make sure that our toddlers don't get run over by a school aged child.

In a family child care home.

Those children are allowed to be mixed together by age.

Because of the small nature and the micro center, they would be able to do that as well and have that mixed age group.

However, the maximum number of children would be based on the age of the youngest child.

So if you just have infants, you're not going to have 24 of them.

You're going to have a much smaller number.

But if you do have preschoolers, then you would have a little more flexibility there.

But the quality piece is really based on the fact that we know that the owner director already has experience with quality and knows how to replicate.

>> That, and that's a good point.

And they still would be subject to all the inspections that happen with other I don't know if you want to call them full service centers.

>> And health and safety is going to be non-negotiable on a lot of things.

Most of our health and safety regulations in any state and child care come from the federal government, and we don't really have that much flexibility on how we implement that.

So whether it's a family, child care home, a micro center, or a larger child care program, health and safety is always going to be at the top priority.

But how the paperwork process the bureaucracy to open a program, the the number of classrooms, things like that can be negotiated.

It's some of the little bit of wiggle room that we have.

And when you take that and move it around a little bit, then particularly in our rural areas, centers cannot stay open in rural areas because 30 families are spaced way too far apart to all drive to the same program.

You have a micro center that only needs 12 to 14 children.

Based on what they're offering.

It's a lot more likely that that can survive in a rural community than a larger center.

>> But when we think about deserts where there's not already a community or a facility, how does a micro center get started?

>> Well, it could be.

And we have instances where there are, I guess, chains, mom and pop chains open throughout Kentucky that leap over counties.

You know, we have programs that are owned by the same individuals that are in southern Indiana and in Louisville, things of that nature.

So it wouldn't require that the original site be in the same county.

It could be that, you know, in Benton, Kentucky, there is a wonderful program that's open and they decide to open a satellite site, maybe in McCracken County.

And, you know, close enough in nature that the person could still oversee, but maybe they are helping the needs of a community that doesn't have anything.

>> Yeah.

Well, thank you for that clarification.

So this question from a viewer, Jane from Madison County, how can more funding be allocated for Head Start in educating children who live in poverty?

And Chairman Carroll, I want to come to you because your idea with Senate Bill 191 does not address Head Start, correct?

>> It does not.

It would address if, say, a school district had their own child care facility that fell under the state child care regs.

It would cover those centers.

But Head starts a federal program in partnership with the state.

And Doctor Vanover would know more about that.

>> So what I will say in Kentucky, almost every Head Start program is also a licensed child care program.

Federal funds come for Head Start to offer three hours a day to children that are at the federal poverty line or below, but many of those Head Start programs expand to full day by use by becoming a licensed center under Kentucky Child Care licensure, and then helping those families to utilize the child Care Assistance Program.

And that pays for the second half of their day.

We have very few programs in Head Start or Early Head Start, which is the birth to three component of that that that don't have license capacity.

And so many of those programs double dip to to support and make it a stronger program.

They get state funds, they get federal funds.

And if they are licensed, then they would fall under the the expenditure of a licensed.

Regulation change.

>> Chairman Carroll, I want to come back to you to talk about your measure.

And I was curious about when you offered this $2,000 incentive to particularly parents who are providing those at home daycare services.

Would that be too much of a carrot for people to pull their kids out of a Head Start program just to get the $2,000?

Do you envision that being a scenario that would be operable?

>> I don't, and first we will have to look at the head start using state money to supplement a federal program.

It you know, it really I'm not sure if that's where we would want to go, but I do know they participate in the All Stars program.

So we would need to be sensitive to that.

But $2,000 I don't think is enough to to sway someone if they do have an available slot, whether that be in Head Start or at a center or in a family in home provider.

I don't think that that's enough where it would have any impact on that at all.

>> Well, thank you for clarifying that.

Any other comment on that before we move on.

So let's let's do also talk about Senator Carroll.

You have a Senate bill.

160 really is flexibility with state inspections.

And so when we hear those words grouped together, sometimes that can resonate with some to be an easing of inspections or concern about the quality.

I don't talk to us about.

>> This at all.

It gives.

>> The inspectors some latitude that they currently don't have it.

It kind of backs backs the OGS office into a corner sometimes where it says they shall.

And then the bill simply sets up some some things that they need to look at at the center.

Was it a self-reported incident, the history of the center, things of that nature to make a more educated decision on on what's happening.

And in some cases, like with new centers that just opened their doors, it would provide some protections to get those centers through the first six months where they would have visits one in person two times a week, and to coach those centers along to make sure they are in compliance so they don't end up falling through the cracks and end up having their license suspended right off the bat.

And then if that period is long enough, they may not ever open their doors again.

So it's more supportive and being more proactive.

And then on the existing center side, it's just more latitude.

The same standards would be in place.

It would not move those at all.

But if if there was a center, let's say, was in a directed plan of care and something happened while they were in that directed plan of care, and it was something that had nothing to do with policy training, anything the center did or didn't do, it had nothing to do with that.

It was simply an act of an individual that may have known better than to to to do that.

So, so in those cases, that particular incident would have to be to a level severe enough that in and of itself would cause the licensure to be revoked in those circumstances.

>> Doctor Vanover, a paper that you coauthored last fall, shows that problems with Kentucky's child care system aren't just limited to the accessibility and affordability, but also there was an increase in abuse at Kentucky child care centers that was linked to low wages and stressed out staff.

And you talked about that from the very beginning when we first opened the program.

And I'm just going to read this because the report found from the Annie E Casey Foundation that child care workers are paid less than 98% of professions.

Another study found that the median wage for child care providers in Kentucky was just under $14 an hour, or 29,060 $60 annually, with many child care programs unable to offer health insurance or other benefits to staff.

And this has created and you've talked about this before, perception of lack of professionalism for that industry.

And does it also somehow feed into some of these incidents of abuse that we see in child care centers, and what can be done to address that that hasn't already been discussed this evening.

>> So we have seen an increase of abuse in child care programs.

Now it's not rampant.

But what we do know is that any case of abuse needs to be eliminated.

And the biggest thing that we see is often entry level staff that don't have enough training yet.

They're left alone in a room full of children in Kentucky, one adult can be left alone with ten two year olds, two adults with 22 year olds.

I don't know your all's background.

I have been the one adult left alone with ten two year olds, and it's not an experience I really want to duplicate.

It's very overwhelming.

And if our staff don't have that training, if they're there just because they they desperately need a paycheck, this is an entry level job, then it's easy to become overwhelmed.

We see that children with disabilities are often targets of abuse because they have very challenging behaviors that may come out in the classroom, and staff are not trained on how to support those children to reduce negative behaviors.

And just as when parents stress levels increase and abuse increases, we see that in child care programs.

Also, one of the portions of House Bill six that Kentucky Youth Advocates is really excited about is that it would require child care providers to get training in the area of special education every year.

Right now, every child care provider in a center in Kentucky has to get 15 hours of training every year.

They're already paying for it.

It's already a requirement.

But we're saying out of those 15 hours, three hours every year would focus on how to support children with disabilities.

The that portion of the bill also talks about our early intervention systems being able to come in and support children in the classroom with parent permission, but making sure that when the Kentucky early intervention system that used to be called first steps, when they come and they work with the child in the classroom, the teachers learn as well as the children.

So the the speech pathologist or the occupational therapist is working with the child, but the teacher watches and learns how to support children in the classroom.

And it's like hands on free technical assistance, and it benefits the children.

It benefits the families because it's really hard to work all day long until 5:00 and then try and find therapy for your child.

After that time period when most medical professionals have closed their offices.

And then we know that teachers get get support.

One of the biggest reasons Bright Horizons has 1000 child care programs worldwide, and not only in the US, but in Holland, all kinds of places.

Several years ago, I was at one of their worker conferences when I worked for Toyota's child care program, and they did exit interviews with every person who left the child care program anywhere in the world.

And wages was not the number one reason people were leaving.

They said that number one was I didn't get along with my director.

Number two was I didn't get along with my teaching staff.

And number three was I do not feel prepared to do my job.

And many of our child care providers feel that way when they get into the field, especially if they're entry level.

You've got an 18 year old right out of high school going into work full time with young children.

You're in a room left alone with five infants and they're all crying at once.

It's very overwhelming.

And so the more training, the more education we can get.

What we've seen is correlations to a reduction in abuse because of that.

>> Yeah.

And it's three hours enough.

Chairwoman Heavrin, when it comes to special education training.

>> I think it's a really good step in the right direction.

Renee three is better than zero.

>> Which is what it is now, right?

>> Yeah.

And you know, my mama is a director of special education.

And so I've grown up learning all about this and understanding it.

And so whenever Sarah brought this, I just knew it was a great step to the right direction.

And, Renee, I've got a few more points I want to make about House Bill six that I think are really important for the work that was done on this, and one we have cap reform, which is the employee child care assistance program, much like Danny's or Chairman Carroll's.

I'm a first name basis.

I feel like Senate Bill 190.

You know, we really take pride in being innovative in Kentucky.

And so, you know, to me, in 2022, when we passed the Employee child Care Assistance Program, it's a try share program.

And so the employer puts in a little money, the employee puts in a little money, and the state puts in a little money.

And you know, we are privatizing that in House Bill six.

It's been you know, it's been really difficult to get off the ground.

And it's in its current form.

And I think a big part of that is the lack of, you know, everything is sometimes on fire in child welfare and you're trying to figure out what's right.

And, and I think that if we can privatize it and be someone's full time job, it's really going to make a difference.

I talked to so many people who are interested in bringing this to their company, but they're like, it's such a hassle.

You know, one day it's an online form and the next day it's you have to fax it in or, you know, it just it's not consistent.

And I think if we can make it a consistent program, it really will get its feet off the ground and really soar.

This is just an extra tool in the toolbox for employers to be able to give to their employees.

We also have a pilot program for military families.

The Department of Defense reached out to us.

They've also passed legislation in North Carolina.

And basically military families move in.

So at Fort Knox or Fort Campbell, and they have a really hard time with their licensure.

And the federal licensure supersedes state.

It's more strict.

And so this would allow for those military families to to start child home based or home based child care centers specifically for military children.

So it's a two year pilot program.

We'll see if it works.

And, you know, I think it's a really great idea to help our military families with that.

We also have in cap We.

This is a really big thing for Kentucky.

And I'm going to struggle with this for categorical eligibility.

Okay.

Explain that.

Yes.

So we have allowed for child care workers to receive free child care through Cap funding.

And just for, you know, Cap funding is the child care assistance program for low income families who work.

And so that's a really big subsidy that we offer here in Kentucky.

And so from that, we have we we expand the eligibility and that becomes permanent.

We've done that in the last few budgets, but it becomes permanent in statute.

And so I think that's a really big win.

We also have the we we we revamp the certified child care community program.

That was legislation we passed in 2024.

And, you know, a few years ago Louisville did a study and they looked at the local zoning, their ordinances to see if they were actually preventing themselves from having child care centers open.

We recognized from them that it was a huge barrier.

And so what this does is it encourages it encourages.

It does not require local cities and counties to look at their local zoning and planning ordinances to see if they're there in their own way of creating child care centers for their communities.

This, unfortunately, was one of those things that we passed.

And then I got a letter saying it was unfunded.

So we're hoping that by moving it to the cabinet for Health and Family Services, that it also gets boots off the ground and we're able to see real success with that.

It just encouragement.

And so all these things we also have fiscal transparency.

We really need to see where money is going.

You know I think a really good example in the budget from last year, $9 million was taken off child care and moved to family based services.

And so what kind of money are we working with?

Because when we're spending taxpayer dollar, we really want that money to be strategically placed and make sure we're getting good use out of it.

And it's and it's creating good, good outcomes.

And then also we have data that is something we we continue to talk about.

I was recently part of a the National Council of State Legislators.

We did a I was on a child care task force there.

And that was one of the biggest things is constantly looking for data.

I had the opportunity to work with Linda from the Buffett Institute as well, and something that's just what we're missing for Kentucky, and I always am a big advocate for, we've got to make sure to have data or we're not going to be able to create good policy.

And so I just I this is a really proud piece of legislation for all of us here to look at.

And the community that brought it together in 2024, advocates were no one could really agree.

We all knew childcare was a problem.

And everyone sitting here, we all believe that the children are our future.

So how do we make that successful?

So we all are trying to figure out how we move child care in Kentucky.

We all just have different ways.

And once again, that's the beauty of the legislature.

>> And what's the fiscal note or fiscal impact of your measure?

House Bill six.

>> $0 Renee.

There's actually it's all into the budget.

So what you saw in House Bill 500 and the House committee substitute, that was already all in there.

There's no it's actually a decrease because of the $9 million that was moved.

So I think it's $53 million in the first biennium for child care.

But it's very similar to the last budget cycle.

>> Representative Moore, what's missing out of what we've talked about tonight.

>> As far as what's missing, I want to highlight, just to give more shine on two of the things that rep Heavrin just mentioned, the C cap to allow our child care providers to have that cost given for their children as well a child care.

I think that's going to be a great thing.

But she mentioned the thing for our military families to have that for military children.

And so one thing that we're trying to do in the Veterans Caucus is find ways for military families move to Kentucky.

How are they supported?

How can they thrive here and live their best life here in Kentucky?

And so that's an option for military spouses and partners to have that business.

Wise but for the children of all those military families to come together and have good, safe service that's already been certified by the DoD through their child care requirements.

So I just want to make sure people who are watching, I know you said so much just then, Samara.

So I wanted I wanted our.

>> People to.

>> Know two of those really cool things.

As far as what's missing, supply and demand does not meet the moment here.

And so government has to exist in some way, shape or form to meet the challenges that the private market either cannot or will not solve on its own.

Capitalism has brought us so far, and it's done great things for this country, but it is just not taking care of child care.

What is the appropriate role when we have $3.7 billion in the budget reserve trust fund, is that required to potentially help this industry where we don't have enough child care providers and we don't we don't have enough, and the ones that we do have are not being paid enough.

Are there other opportunities when maybe it is raining?

Maybe this is a rainy day and we need to look into this like historic amount that we have sitting there that we're not touching right now.

>> What do you propose?

>> That's a great question.

>> I.

>> I thought I knew your answer.

So let me ask you, let me ask it this way.

As posed by a viewer.

This viewer wants to ask the entire panel how many of them received pre-kindergarten education.

>> I did, I did.

>> Yeah.

>> I did not I did okay.

>> And so let's let's talk about that.

Do you think that was a value added benefit for the rest of your matriculation through primary and secondary education and beyond?

>> I would say yes.

I was blessed to have a mother who stayed at home with my sister and I until we entered kindergarten.

But I did go to half day preschool at my church leading up to kindergarten, and the benefits of even half day programs, even if even if the family has someone who can watch the child, the benefits of even half day have a major social and emotional impacts on a child.

If you ask a kindergarten teacher, you know what?

What is it you need?

They will tell you, I can teach the alphabet.

I can teach numbers.

I went to school to learn how to do that.

But when kids come and they they don't know how to identify their own emotions, and so they become overwhelmed and they're disregulated and they fall down on the floor and are having these meltdowns.

Or if they don't know how to play with other children, and I have to spend all my time mediating fights, then I can't teach the academic part of kindergarten, because I have to go back to the basics that kids should be learning in a preschool setting.

So when we have solid preschool programs, quality that allows children to interact with others allows them to learn how to follow directions, allows them to begin those communication skills that they're going to need from from there on up that's going to benefit in our half days.

It's going to benefit for our working families that are in full day, and it'll have an impact when we see those kindergarten readiness scores.

>> Chairwoman Heavrin yes, so I went to First Baptist School.

I went to three year olds and four year olds until they had a spot for me in kindergarten.

And I think the pieces from that is missing out of that, though, is I also had a memo that helped my mom, and she helped, you know, if mom if mom had to work late and mom was there to watch me.

And so I think that's the missing piece and kind of this universal pre-K conversation, which I kind of think the question was alluding to, is that if you take four year olds out of childcare center, if you take four year olds out of childcare centers, you're going to decimate the entire industry because there's not, you know, four year olds.

You can have more of those.

You can make more money off of them.

I'm not anti preschool.

I just think that we've got to look at the whole picture.

And you know, as a small business owner myself I have clients.

If school gets canceled for the day they don't have childcare.

So they have to take off work.

And so it's a whole it's a big issue that continues.

And it's not just did you go and do you think it made you better?

Well it's about what about for working parents that don't have the luxury of having a memo or a pap to help take care of them, or a dad or an aunt, whatever.

We've got to make sure to have space for everybody.

And so I think that we can have a conversation on on preschool.

But I think we also have to look at childcare isn't just 8 to 12 or 8 to 2.

It is 24 over seven, seven days a week.

They don't take off holidays, they don't have spring break and they don't have fall break.

And so it's not a summer program.

So there's I think there's a lot more to it.

Yes, I think preschool is good.

But I think when we're trying to solve this issue right now with childcare, it's not just about preschool.

>> And you would agree.

Oh, sorry.

>> I was going to say every family's needs are really different.

We have public school preschool in Kentucky that does an excellent job of serving children with disabilities, because they have supports from the federal government for special education.

We have Head Start that offers wraparound services to low income families that make sure that those kiddos get to go to the doctor and get dental exams, and that their parents have the opportunity to get a GED.

And then we have working families who, you know, as much as I admire my mom for being able to stay at home with me financially, I didn't have that opportunity as a parent and I needed full time childcare for my children.

But I also needed it to be high quality enough that I didn't spend my entire day at work worrying while those kiddos were there and and thinking about, you know, year round care, thinking about holiday care.

We have a lot of options that different families can choose from, but we have to make sure that the right families have access to the type of program that they need.

>> And I mean, where where is the business community in all of this?

Right.

>> Let me first say, going back to the original question about those of us that spent time in preschool, I did not spend time in preschool.

And the consequences of that is I had to spend ten years in college to get my PhD.

So careful thing for us all to think about.

You know, back in 2024 when we started the Kentucky Collaborative on Childcare, which included a lot of great folks like Doctor Vanover as an example, we brought together all these folks who had different opinions on this issue, and we asked them, where do you want to, where do you want to spend our time?

What should be our focus as this conversation?

And that group decided that we really wanted to focus on private, regulated childcare.

As Doctor Vanover mentioned at the start of this, we have about 2000 of these small businesses, non-profits, faith based organizations that are serving north of 100,000 children all across the state.

And these are children of all ages, and they're helping families with all sorts of different needs from all sorts of different socioeconomic statuses.

But we know that our current system is suboptimal.

And so our thought was, let's focus in on that.

How do we make that network of private childcare providers more functional so that we can help more of these working families?

And so that's where we have focused in all of our energy.

And that's where we think that the conversation is really, really important place to continue to focus on this conversation, I think is really highlighted the importance of that, not only for kids, but to our economy as a whole.

>> Universal pre-K.

You're still for it though, representative.

>> I am, but I think we've seen multiple proposals for it.

It's not there have been different things that have put out by the governor's office, but as well as some members of my own caucus, whether we're looking at expanding it gradually based on counties and where they are in certain metrics versus those who are on different income levels, there are ways to, I think, to do it gradually and intelligently.

If we just try to say, every four year old in Kentucky gets preschool tomorrow, that's going to collapse in a heartbeat.

It would that would fail.

Child care around the state would fail.

So there's a way to do a measured approach to it with a gradual rollout that's done intelligently.

Rome was not built in a day.

You know, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

I think it's a great thing to aspire to that every child in Kentucky has the opportunity to go to preschool, but it takes people like us, people like the chairs here who are worked on these work, these working groups, these task forces to find these long term solutions that aren't just about let me pass something right now because I have a reelection coming up in a few months.

What can we build?

What seeds can we plant now that maybe after I'm already retired from the legislature, we'll be able to reap those and we'll be able to sit in the shade of that tree.

>> So this question from his time is dwindling.

Julie from Powell County, she says, quote, is there any consideration for policy or financial backing for summer programs through public schools to offer child care services when it's needed?

For those underage kids of working parents?

>> Well, a lot of that depends on whether or not the program is licensed or not.

Public schools often have licensed after school programs, licensed summer programs, and if the program is regulated by the state, then they have the ability for those families to go and apply for the child care Assistance program, the subsidy program.

And we're looking at families up to 85% of the state median income.

As far as eligibility.

They have the ability to qualify, and then the state says, where which center are you going to with this?

So all of our programs are required to be in the all star program.

And if you're in all stars, then you can accept that child care assistance after an annual training to remind you how to be good stewards of those funds.

>> Yeah.

So we've talked about House Bill six.

We've talked about Senate Bill 191.

And I think Senate Bill 160.

What else are we missing?

Is there another piece that's going to be a part of this maybe omnibus child care measure?

>> You know, I think the one primary thing that we're missing in all this is the investment.

And when we start looking at our kids as an investment and we do away with the conversation about subsidizing private businesses, and I agree, it's going to take every delivery model that we have to get us where we need to be.

And it it's about our child's our children's development.

It's about child care centers succeeding.

It's about schools succeeding.

It's about parents being able to work.

It's about our economy.

There are so many factors that go into this, but we're going to have to make a substantial investment to make sure that we get where we need to be.

It needs to be a gradual growth.

But that's what we're missing in this entire argument.

And getting our legislature to look at it from that perspective.

I think that's what where we're lacking and where we're going to need to be if we're going to be successful in the future.

So many things hinge on it.

We're going to have to invest in it and look at it as an investment.

>> Well, House Bill 500, the state executive budget is in you all's court, right?

Are you going to get your hands on a piece of that.

>> And.

You know and I hope.

>> We do an investment.

And, you know, one of the differences in the bill that I'm proposing with 191, that funding would go to every child care center, not just those that are two, three, four, and five stars.

And so it would promote growth at every level, and there would be revenue that comes in that would allow some of those smaller centers to be able to reinvest in their facility and grow and improve quality and expand and bring new entrepreneurs in.

So it's that type of on the private side of it, there has to be an ability to survive and, you know, and raise your family on the revenue that you create.

If we can't get to that point, we can't succeed.

And that's that's got to happen.

And I hope that we start making some investments in the public and private sector as we move forward.

>> Well, thank you all for the investment of your time.

This has been a really good conversation.

Most of you have been in this venue before, and you can tell that you are very interested stakeholders who work very collaboratively.

So thank you so much for being here, and you can keep up with what's happening in Frankfort.

We will be there all day tomorrow.

You can watch that online and on our on air channel.

And next Monday night we will not be here because we will have special programing, but you can keep in touch with everything that's happening in Frankfort.

Weeknights at 630 eastern, 530 Central on Kentucky edition.

And of course, Bill Bryant and a panel of working journalists will be here on Friday night to go over the news of the week.

And that's at eight eastern, seven central right here on KET.

Thanks for watching.

Have a great night and I'll see you tomorrow night.