♪ [heroic music] ♪ ♪ ♪ - Hello, and welcome to Comic Culture.

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is designer, author, artist, Chip Kidd.

Chip, welcome to Comic Culture.

- Thanks.

Thanks.

Good to be here.

- Chip, we are here today because you recently worked on a book called The Avengers' Veracity Trap.

And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about this book, because it is an interesting Avengers story that's sort of set in those early days, the Kirby-Lee days.

And yet, there's this modern sensibility of kind of going meta and peeling back that fourth wall.

So what was this book about for you?

- It's a delivery system for the brilliant, brilliant art of Michael Cho, who just did the most amazing job with it.

I was approached by Abrams Comic Arts and my friend and colleague, Charlie Kochman, with the opportunity to write a Marvel graphic novel.

And which I've never done before.

And so we started thinking about some ideas.

And immediately, I thought of Mike.

And at that point, I wanted to talk to him to see if he would consider it, if he would consider working on it.

Because for what it was going to be, it would be at least three years of his working life, turned out to be four.

But we had a long talk.

He agreed.

And I mean, I had a premise.

And we actually don't specifically say what year it is.

But for the Avengers part, it is the original lineup.

And I was inspired by Mike's convention drawings that he had been posting on Instagram for years.

And really going back to these versions of the characters, that was part of the inspiration.

There's an old Looney Tunes cartoon called Duck Amok, which was a great inspiration for this.

That fascinated me as a kid.

And ultimately, it's a love letter to comics and the comics that we grew up with.

And in a lot of ways, it's like a thank you for creating these characters.

And then we actually get to meet them.

And it's more than that.

I mean, I'd like to think that there is a story in there.

One of the reviews said that the plot is like a Mobius loop, which I thought was really cool.

I really liked that a lot.

I think if you read it one time and then go back and read it a second time, I think you'll get more out of it, which is true of many, many books.

- It's fascinating because, as it says in one of the panels, comics are considered this low art.

And yet, here we are years later, built on the foundations, the shoulders of giants, where we're seeing these great new stories that are coming out that are considered great literature.

And as you are working on this book, you're saying you go back, you reread it.

And I'm thinking of a classic film.

You can watch a film once, and you can see it for its surface story.

And then you can start to think about it, and then watch it again.

And you can start to see those other themes and those other threads.

So as you're putting together this story, working with Michael, and the two of you are bouncing these ideas back and forth, are you thinking in terms of that second read?

Or is this just we're going to tell the story, and later on, maybe it's going to be revealed to you as you go through draft one or draft two, that you know what, there's this other thing in here that we both didn't see?

- That's a good question.

I mean, I think any book that I work on that I'm-- and I'm passionate about all the ones that I do where I'm the author.

Any author is hoping for multiple reads on any book that they do.

So I really wasn't written with that in mind, I would say.

But we certainly-- I certainly had to go back and just make sure that everything-- and this is where you have editors.

I had a great editor at Marvel named Tom Brevoort.

And Charlie Kochman at Abrams.

And then Alex Ross was the executive editor on it.

And so they would point out, well, this-- there's a hole in the plot here.

So fix it.

Which is great.

When you're working on something like this, it's very-- the longer you're working on it, the less perspective you get on it.

And I think that's been the case on many of the books that I've worked on.

And that's why you have an editor.

And that's why you have readers, friends who will take a look at it before it's published and give you notes.

- Art is one of these interesting things because it's very personal to us.

We are creators.

And we're putting ourselves out there.

We're taking a risk.

And when you share it with somebody that you know who is going to be that person who's going to give you their honest opinion of what you may or may not see is right or wrong with your story, is there still-- I mean, you've been in the industry for a while.

You've got a storied career as a designer and as a writer.

Is there still this notion of, no, you, the reader, are wrong and I'm right?

Or is it something where you say, you know what?

I'm going to have to have that open mind because if they see something, I trust them, there's probably something there.

- Yeah.

I'd totally consider comments and feedback and-- yeah.

I mean, I-- so the premise of this book is that there are two realms.

There is the realm that you and I are in right now, which is reality.

But then there's the Marvel realm, Marvel comic book realm, which exists on the page.

But the characters in that realm think that it's all real.

That is their reality.

It would never occur to them that it isn't.

What if Loki somehow figured out a way to build a portal that takes you from one realm into the other?

And if he could do that, he-- from our realm, he could completely control the entire Marvel universe via whatever he wanted to write or draw.

And there's this big battle in the beginning using all these old Kirby monsters from the early '60s, which I really wanted to do because I've always gotten the biggest kick out of those things in "FamFum."

And so that's just like a vehicle to let Mike totally cut loose and do battle scenes and show fighting in a sequence where he really controls the movement.

I had seen him do covers for Marvel before, but never sequential art.

And I really wanted to see that.

And he did a brilliant job.

But then the fight is over.

But then something happens that they weren't prepared for.

And a revelation is made.

And they have to reckon with that.

- You know, one of the scenes in the book features you interacting with the Avengers, you and Michael.

And this is reminiscent of, let's say, the early "Fantastic Four," where Kirby and Lee make an appearance because they are the chroniclers of the "Fantastic Four" adventures.

And even throughout the '80s, I mean, we have Steve Rogers, who is an artist working for Marvel during the Mark Grunwald era.

So as you are pulling from the history of the characters and trying to put your own statement on this, at what point are you, I guess, going from taking the joy and wonder that you had as a young reader and turning it into something where it's that smile and that wink and nod as the older creator?

- I mean, we wanted there to be a plot, that this veracity vortex is something that Mike and I created as a writer and a comic book illustrator.

And then it comes to life, so to speak.

And so it kind of saps the Avengers of their will to go on.

And so it's the only way they can see to fix it would be to have us destroy it.

- I think of it-- we are looking at comics now.

They're certainly more serious in tone.

In a lot of cases, they're more serious in tone than they were years ago.

And as you are working in this homage to-- what I'm calling the homage to the Kirby Lee or to, like you said, Duck Amuck, where it's the pencil comes in and just starts recreating Daffy Duck in all these different positions, the screwball, that sort of thing.

You're doing something that's different for contemporary comics.

And I'm just wondering, as you are kind of going into this, is this something where you're-- obviously, you're intentionally doing this.

You're doing this in a way that is designed to help you tell this interesting story.

But are you thinking to yourself that a modern audience might not be as receptive as they were in the '60s?

Or are you going to say, modern audiences know comics inside and out.

And therefore, they're going to get what we're doing.

And they're going to come along for this fun ride.

- If you think too much about what the audience might want or how they might react, I think you're going to compromise what you're trying to do.

Like, it was important to me that some of it be very, very funny, whereas on the other hand, existentialism and why are we here and do we have control over our own destiny, those are serious things.

But I wanted it to be colorful.

And there's literally cartoon violence in it.

But it's an all-ages book.

Like, we sort of subconsciously wanted to keep it that way as opposed to doing some deadly serious thing where someone dies or what have you.

My rule is, for myself, if I'm working on something, if I'm cracking myself up, then at least it's funny on some level.

- You are an award-winning designer.

And I'm just wondering, as you are coming up with the idea for this book and you're working with Michael Cho on this book, how much of it is maybe you've got a visual in mind that you think would work for something?

And how much of it is you just hearing some feedback from your artistic partner and there's that collaboration?

Are you tempted ever to sort of put in that designer point of view where you're just going to kind of sit back for a moment and just say, you know what, the artist is going to do the art because that's what they do.

And I'm just going to come in and tweak the words a little bit to fit what we've come up with.

- Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it was very collaborative.

But I left a lot of the decision making up to him in terms of the art and how we wanted the art to work.

And I haven't written a lot of scripts for comics.

But when I do, it's like I almost storyboard it.

So at least it's a starting point.

Like, OK, this page is going to have four panels.

And that's what happens in this one.

And that's what happens in this one and this one and this one.

And so we would talk about that.

And he said, you know, I don't want to do any Steve Ditko nine panel pages.

You know, make four max.

And I said, that's fine.

Although there is one nine panel page in the book, which is sort of like the crux of the whole thing.

And I think it works.

I think it works really well.

But there's also something that in the script is called the veracity vortex effect, which is going from full color printed page to, as your eyes going along the page, say, to the right.

Then it's just the inks, the colors, fades away.

And then the inks fade away.

And then you get to the pencils.

And the pencils fade away.

And then it's just white.

I think that posed a big, big challenge to Mike.

Because he was-- at first, he said, I don't think I'm going to be able to color this.

Because I'm not going to have time.

And I'm not going to have time to do it correctly.

And sure enough, by the time he was done drawing it, he's like, I've got to color it.

I've got to do it myself.

I can't hand it over to somebody else.

But then he had to figure out that.

And he did a brilliant job.

- It's got to be, I guess, extra rewarding.

I mean, you're working on something.

And you feel like you're firing on all cylinders.

Your artistic partner feels like he's firing on all cylinders.

And then the audience response is that, yeah, you were definitely hitting it out of the ballpark, as I mix my metaphors painfully.

So it's interesting.

Because this is-- it's Marvel.

And you also mentioned Abrams.

And I'm just wondering how this two different companies working together brought you into creating this comic.

- My friend Charlie Kochman, we had known each other for over 30 years.

And we met when I was doing some licensed publishing books for DC Comics.

So the first thing-- and he was an editor there at the time.

And so the first thing that we worked on together was the Batman animated book, way back in '97.

And then we did a couple other books together, one of which was published by Abrams.

And by the end of that process, they had hired him away from DC to work at Abrams and to develop comics material for them.

And Charlie and Alex Ross are very, very close, both in terms of friendship, but also working together.

And Alex wanted to publish a Fantastic Four book that he would write and illustrate.

As I understand it, he wanted Charlie as the editor of it, because that's who he was used to working with the most on story material.

A deal was made with Marvel that Abrams Comic Arts could publish, as it turns out, once a year.

One graphic novel of original Marvel content.

And that's a pretty big thing.

It's a pretty big deal.

And of course, Marvel has full say over what's going on.

But it's like a platform for creators who might not get to work on certain characters to be able to do so.

And that's how it has turned out.

I mean, we're only the third book.

The second one was by Patrick McDonald of Mutt's fame, who is not known for drawing the Marvel characters.

But he got to have his take on it.

And there will be a lot more.

- Marvel is in the business of publishing books and selling books.

And the fact that they are willing to go out to, I guess, appeal to a slightly different audience, somebody who might be looking to follow a creator who has never been associated with a particular property-- I mean, the Alex Ross Fantastic Four book, as I recall, was something that he had pitched to Marvel.

And they didn't want to do it necessarily.

And then Abrams, I guess, kind of stepped into it.

So again, it's an interesting way that comics have sort of evolved as the audience has accepted them as legitimate-- and I put that in quotes-- "legitimate art," something, again, that's sort of mentioned in the veracity trap.

And one thing I will say as I make a very awkward turn to the left, you are an acclaimed designer.

And I think it would be-- I would be remiss if I didn't mention that you worked on some properties that the audience is probably familiar with, but might not be familiar that it's your work.

And one of them is, of course, the Jurassic Park stuff.

So as you are working on a book, you're tasked by the publisher to come up with the design.

Are you anticipating that it's going to be so successful that decades later we're still seeing that image and it's become so iconic?

Or was it something like you all along?

- No, never, never.

That was lightning in a bottle.

That almost never happens.

I certainly can't recall that I was able to duplicate anything like that.

It's-- you don't really have control over it in a way.

It was really kind of a fluke that I was given that novel to work on when I was like 26 years old as part of my day job.

I mean, there were other people that were working on it.

But ultimately, like, the one that I did and drew was the one that was chosen.

But no.

I mean, at first, no idea.

And then Universal wanted to buy the rights to the image in case they might want to use it.

And so even at that point, I thought, well-- and again, like, I didn't own it.

I mean, this is classic work for hire.

But we didn't-- we didn't really have a choice.

We didn't-- we didn't really understand the scope of it-- and I say we-- Knopf Publishing until they had an advanced screening of the movie for us in a small screening room here in New York and we walked out of it.

I mean, we were quite amazed for a lot of different reasons.

But like, it's like, wow, it's not just the logo for the movie.

It's the logo for the park in the movie.

Like, wow.

But no.

And you certainly-- you certainly don't go into it thinking, oh, well, that's what I'm going to do.

Because, you know, it's-- you just have to do the best job you can.

- And, you know, I'm imagining that New York Comic Con is coming up-- we're taping it the same week that New York Comic Con is going to occur.

I'm imagining over the years you've gone to conventions, you've gone to different places, and maybe somebody's got the t-shirt or maybe they've got the tattoo of the Jurassic logo somewhere.

And when you see something like that and they show it to you and they're proud of it, you know, what sort of interaction-- I know it's got to feel good, but what sort of interaction is that for you, you know, in the few minutes we have left?

You know, I-- it's been, what, over 30 years or something like that.

I-- I'm-- I'm thrilled.

You know, it's-- it's like that will be the first line of my obituary, that creator of the image for Jurassic Park has-- has died of whatever.

I mean, it's-- I mean, the tattoos are, I guess, more surprising because they're far more permanent.

[LAUGHS] But yeah, no, I-- I'm very proud of it.

I'm very proud of it.

- It's-- it's one thing when someone has a printup in their apartment.

It's another thing when they've got the art gallery with them all the time.

- Right, right.

- Again, it shows that commitment and the love of that design and the franchise I'm imagining as well.

We have just a few minutes left.

If the folks watching at home wanted to find out more about you, is there a spot on the web that they can look you up?

Good old Facebook Meta and-- and Instagram.

I've actually-- I-- I had a website for a while, and then it just became-- because of social media, it just became pretty much irrelevant.

So I took that down.

And, you know, if-- if someone wants to, like, get a hold of me or see what's-- what I'm doing or what's going on, they can try either of those.

- Chip, before we wrap up our conversation, one thing about the book is that it has a rather unique book jacket.

So could you tell us a little bit about the book jacket for "The Veracity Trap"?

- Yes, so at the 11th hour, I asked Charlie Kochman, my-- my editor at Abrams, like, hey, could we print on the other side of the jacket, too?

And he said, I'll have to check, because, of course, it's more money.

And then he came back, and he said, yes, we can do it.

I was sort of filled with girlish glee when he said that, because the jacket is reversible.

And so you-- when you do that, you get giant heads of all the-- of all the characters.

And it wraps-- wraps around the book the other way, and it still has the information on the spine.

That was just something that actually meant a lot to me.

- It's such a clever design.

I was-- before our interview, I went to Amazon, and there's a video of someone doing that, showing how you can reverse the jacket.

And I just thought that was so clever, because it is-- it's those big, bold characters.

And those faces are just so iconic at this point.

Between the movies and between the love affair, America has rediscovered with Jack Kirby, and seeing Michael's work so reminiscent of that.

And again, you know, 11th hour, this is something that I'm guessing a lot of other artists aren't able to-- writers aren't able to pull off is something as clever as this.

But because this is that graphic novel format, it seems it's just perfect for it.

- Yeah, yeah.

The book has another identity.

You can give it-- you can show its secret identity.

- Well, that's a great way to put it.

Well, Chip, they are telling us that we are out of time.

I want to thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me today.

- Well, thank you.

It's been a pleasure.

- And I'd like to thank everyone at home for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

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