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[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi, everyone.

Steve Adubato.

We are honored to be joined by the honorable former governor of the great state of New Jersey, Chris Christie.

Governor, good to see you.

- Happy to be back, Steve.

- So we are happy to have you.

Listen, we are taping on an interesting day, and you know from being with us many times, we don't try to compete with the news.

We are not the news.

We check out "NJ Spotlight News" or "MetroFocus" or other national broadcasts daily.

We try to look at the bigger picture.

If in fact this, today, next week, this week, whenever, if the former President Donald Trump is indicted in Manhattan, the DA's office, again, we don't know what the charges are.

We're not talking criminal issues.

What do you believe the potential political ramifications are?

Also given that there's activity in Georgia which may complicate the situation.

What do you believe it means politically for our country, particularly because he's running again in 2024.

- Sure, well, there's also a special counsel investigation out of DOJ in Washington, too, that's pending.

So there's a lot of activity that's going on.

Look, I don't have two minds on this, you know.

First is that, you know, Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan DA to me has been a complete failure at his core job, which is to keep the people of the borough of Manhattan safe.

And I go into New York frequently.

It is no longer, in my view, a safe place to be.

And it's because, and I know this as a former prosecutor, he's executing his discretion to let people who commit violent crimes right back out on the street.

And so when you're failing at the core mission of your job, it becomes more difficult to be taking on things that are a little bit beyond your core mission, which is what I see the Stormy Daniels investigation as being, so, I mean, let's face it, I don't think there's probably anybody who's paying attention in America who probably doesn't think that Donald Trump had an affair with Stormy Daniels, that he paid her off two weeks before the election to keep quiet in 2016.

American people have incorporated that, I think, for the most part into their evaluation of Donald Trump so I don't know what Alvin Bragg's getting at.

Second part, though, I'd say is that the idea that somehow this helps the former president I think is folly.

I don't think it ever helps you with your image with the American people if you've been indicted by a grand jury for a crime and you're gonna be fingerprinted and mugshotted and processed through bail.

I don't think that's ever a positive for a political candidate.

So I think both of those things can exist at the same time.

- You know, last time you were with us, Governor, we talked extensively about January 6th.

It's not old news.

It's part of our history.

It's part of our culture.

It's part of the challenge to keep a representative democracy functioning.

From the last time we talked, from January 6th when the insurrection took place, Governor, do you think we're any closer to being able to have spirited civil discourse, people agreeing, disagreeing, challenging each other without political violence?

Any closer to that?

- Sure, I think we are.

But, you know, a long, long way to go, Steve.

Look, January 6th was, I think, when we reached bottom.

And I think that, you know, a lot of people in this country who have looked at that and said, for people who wanna peacefully protest, that's part of their right under the Constitution.

But for the folks who were throwing things through the windows on Capitol Hill, ransacking the Speaker's Office and causing injury and death to folks on Capitol Hill, that that's just not something that's acceptable in our country.

And I think a lot of people not only knew that before, but when you see it happen, I think they've come to the conclusion that there's other ways to go about this in terms of registering your disagreement with something, and that certainly wasn't the way to do it.

So I think we're closer to it, but we still have a long way to go in terms of being civil with each other.

- Speaking of civil, you can catch the Governor on Sundays on "This Week."

He is a regular commentator with ABC News talking about politics.

So Governor, let me try this.

So the role of the media, you and I have talked about this on the air, off the air.

You are now a member of the quote unquote "fourth estate" in the media.

If you choose to run for president, that will stop, but that's premature.

The reason I ask is because I'm very curious about, people will often ask me, and we have a lot of the same mutual friends who say, "Well in the media, Steve, whose team are you on?"

Meaning you have to pick a side.

And I argue that we're on the side of having civil discourse and they think that's corny and quaint and not relevant and not real.

The reason I'm saying is 'cause Fox News and some others, but Fox News particularly as it relates to the Dominion case, I'm not gonna get into the details of the case.

But when they acknowledge, including the Chairman, Rupert Murdoch at Fox News, that they know they lied about the election and engaged in intentional disinformation, what does that, A, say about their reputation and B, more importantly, the role of the media in informing citizens, particularly if they're worried about losing them as viewers?

So tell them... Am I convoluting things, Chris?

- No, look, I think that last point is the most important one.

You know, this was not a philosophical decision by Fox News, in my view.

- No.

- It was a capitalist- - Business decision.

- Yeah, a capitalist decision.

They didn't think their, a majority of their viewers wanted to hear it.

In fact, they had already kind of test case, to run a test case on it, and they saw that they were starting to lose ratings to Newsmax and some of the other more conservative outlets.

Look, it's a problem.

It's a problem that, you know, there are some folks who only wanna watch MSNBC and some folks who only wanna watch Fox News.

And those two outlets, and CNN for that matter, you know, cater to the the extremes in many instances on both sides, especially in their evening programming, their personality programming.

So, you know, this is a problem, and the American people, I think, are searching and struggling for the truth and never used to think the truth was negotiable.

But apparently in today's media world it is.

- Yeah, shift gears back to New Jersey.

What's the biggest public policy beef or disagreement you have with Governor Phil Murphy?

- Well, we don't have enough time.

- What are the top two?

- Well, first, his energy policy I think is completely pie in the sky stuff, that he is not being honest with the people of New Jersey about how much his clean energy plan is gonna cost.

And, you know, they're not using things and growing them like natural gas, like nuclear that we should be growing that are significantly less expensive and significantly more reliable than solar or wind.

I was always a governor who was for all of the above and letting all of them come in.

But what he's doing on energy policy I think is going to even put more economic pressure on a state that's already losing to its competitors around the country.

And look, I think secondly, you know, his policies on education in excluding parents from being able to make decisions about how their children are supposed to learn about sex and sexuality, imposing those things through the classroom and allowing the crazily liberal NJEA to play surrogate parent in the classroom because he can't disagree with them because they are his sugar daddy politically, I think are all things that are, those are probably the top two, but we could go on for the rest of the 20 minutes.

- Governor, go back to the education stuff.

We've done a whole range of programming about two subjects in terms of education that have created a lot of discourse, debate, contention, if you will.

So be specific, what is it that you believe is being taught in the public schools, whether it has to do with sex education or race-related content that is problematic and should not be taught?

- Look, what he's doing is imposing his perspective, his point of view on every public school student through the requirements that he is placing on every public school in terms of what they need to be teaching at what grade level.

I don't believe that we need to be talking about transgender issues when folks are in the third and fourth grade.

I don't think that we need to be making folks feel badly about the way our country is and has been.

I think we need to teach history straight and not- - Hold on one second.

Governor, straight would include slavery.

Straight content, as you refer to it, would include the civil rights struggle.

Straight would mean a whole range of issues having to do with social justice and race relations and racial disparities.

How is that- - Well, hold on.

- And by the way, every parent can opt out, is that not?

Every parent can opt out of that class for their kid.

- Well, yeah, they can opt out of the school, too, except for New Jersey, you can't get vouchers in New Jersey.

We've had a diminution of the charter school movement under Phil Murphy because that's not what the NJEA wants.

Look, I learned about slavery, and I know you did, too, growing up.

I learned about the civil rights struggle and Dr. Martin Luther King and Congressman John Lewis and all the great African American leaders who, Jesse Jackson and others who helped to lead for change that happened in this country.

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about things that are much more akin to things like the 1619 Project from "The New York Times," which is now becoming a part of curriculum in school, which I think quite frankly is not only negative and paints our country in a bad light, but is also historically inaccurate.

But again, and I'll even do small things, Steve, like we're moving back in now to the renovated executive portion of the State House.

And Governor Murphy has made the decision that the bust of- - Governor before, before you do that, go back.

I want to disclose this, that the 1619 Project, we actually did an in-depth interview.

Jacqui Tricarico, our Executive Producer, did an in-depth interview with the creator of that, the author of that book, the creator of the 1619 Project.

You can watch it and decide for yourself.

Governor, pick up your point about the State House, please.

- In the State House, Steve, which we closed down in 2016 to go through its first renovation in over 70 years, it's now reopening in the next week or two to be having the executive branch move back in.

And Governor Murphy's made the decision that the bust of Woodrow Wilson, which used to sit in the rotunda of the State House, will not be moved back in.

Now, you know, I'm not saying that Woodrow Wilson did not have problems regarding race relations in some of his opinions.

- But guess what?

You know, if we're gonna eliminate every person in American history who was engaged in slavery, we're gonna take down the statues of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.

We're gonna take down statues of James Madison and others who were great leaders in this country and helped to build this country.

I didn't know that the standard anymore was perfection or perfection towards Phil Murphy's point of view.

Really what he's doing- - Well, Princeton University did the same where the former- - They were wrong, too.

- Woodrow Wilson School of International Affairs is no longer named that.

Phil Murphy didn't do that.

I'm not here to defend the governor, but Princeton did that.

- Right, okay, so does that make what Phil Murphy's doing justifiable because Princeton screwed up?

I mean, the fact is that our history is our history, and we should teach about Woodrow Wilson, both the good things he did as governor and as president and the awful things that he was involved in.

In the same way we should teach about the fact that George Washington had slaves at Mount Vernon, the same way we should talk about the way Thomas Jefferson had slaves at Monticello, but also wrote the Declaration of Independence and led to the creation of the freest, fairest nation in the history of the world.

But what we have now with politicians like Phil Murphy is we only wanna talk about one side of that.

And we're not gonna have a discussion about Woodrow Wilson.

We're gonna hide from it.

We're not gonna put his bust in the State House where he served as governor before he was President.

No, we're gonna hide it in the basement of the State Museum.

I'm sorry, just remember this, at the beginning of Phil Murphy's term, he used to sit at Woodrow Wilson's desk.

What was he thinking then?

This is a response to political pressure from the far left of his own party, and he wants to comport with that.

If he really understood the history and cared and was offended by Woodrow Wilson, why did he ever have Woodrow Wilson's desk in his office?

I never- - Governor, I'm gonna ask Governor Murphy that question when we have him.

I look forward to that conversation.

And if he had a change of heart, a change of thinking, he can explain that- - Well, after he got caught, after he got caught with it in his office, he moved it out.

- Okay, you talk about the far left, Governor, of the Democratic Party.

The far right of your party, you're still a Republican.

You're a leader in the Republican Party.

Here's my question, Chris.

We've known each other a lot of years and you've always, you're so much more than the get the hell off the beach guy.

I mean, that's the most obvious, but you've always been a straight shooter.

But here's the question I have for you.

Where the heck is the place for not a Chris Christie, but Chris Christie in this particular Republican Party that if Donald Trump has 1/3 of the party and then Ron DeSantis is who he supposedly is gonna be moving forward, we don't know, for a moderate, reasonable, outspoken Republican who cares about the Constitution and representative democracy, that's you.

- Look, there are places for folks like me all throughout our party.

All you have to do is look in the state houses throughout this country to see it.

You know, whether you're talking about a guy like Phil Scott in Vermont or Chris Sununu in New Hampshire, whether you're talking about, you know, a governor like Brian Kemp in Georgia, or whether you're talking about a governor- - But nationally.

Nationally.

- Well, those are national figures.

I mean, I'm sorry, all those folks are national figures.

They're national voices in the Republican Party.

A few of them may even run for president.

And so I don't, our party has always been a diverse party and a big-tent party.

There's gonna be a lot of different points of view, and we're gonna have a fight over the course- - When will you decide, Governor?

When will you decide about the presidency?

- Probably in the next 60 days or so.

- Really?

Okay, so if this program airs in late May, will we know?

- I'll probably make a decision by then, yeah.

- Okay, Governor, I wanna thank you for always being so Chris Christie, honest and saying what you think.

And we appreciate it and we wish you and your family all the best.

Thank you, Governor.

- Well, thanks for the great questions, Steve.

And thanks for having me on.

- You got it.

That's Chris Christie.

I'm Steve Adubato.

We'll be right back.

(grand music) - [Announcer] To watch more State of Affairs with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We are honored to be joined by David Sciarra who is former Executive Director of the Education Law Center.

Good to see you, my friend.

- Good to see you, Steve, again.

- So, by the way, background, David and I were talking before and this must be a dozen interviews we've done over the years, talking about education, talking about education financing, equity, and public education.

Tell folks, David, tell everyone, what the Education Law Center is while we put the website up.

- So actually the Education Law Center is celebrating its 50th year this year, started in 1973 in Newark by former Rutgers Law Professor Paul Trachtenberg.

- That's right.

- And known mostly for our work in New Jersey on school finance, the Abbott litigation, preschool, school buildings, all of those sorts of things.

ELC's mission is to represent public school children, only pre-K to 12, that's its sole mission.

So we are a, ELC is an advocacy organization that works on multiple levels, Steve, we, as you know, we litigate.

So we've got a legal arm, but we also do research.

We do policy, we do work with the legislature.

And most importantly, we try to engage parents and public school communities in the effort to make sure that the public schools are doing a good job for their kids.

- Let me try this.

New Jersey has been described as having among the best if not the best public school system in the country.

But here's the thing, we don't have a particularly integrated public school system.

It's incredibly bifurcated and polarized and segregated.

50 years in the Education Law Center, fighting for educational equity, more funds to urban communities, the Abbott versus Burke original Supreme Court decision that started this conversation.

What progress do you feel has been made in terms of genuinely integrating our schools, diversifying our schools?

- Oh, not much at all.

So I think you have to think about the right to education under our state constitution as really having two components.

One is and this is really what the Abbott rulings were all about.

And then we fought for the last 40 years on this, which is to make sure kids, even if they are consigned to go to school in districts that are segregated by poverty and race, that those kids get everything that they need to succeed in school today.

- Thorough and efficient education as described in the Constitution, go ahead.

- Right, so even if you're in Newark or you're in Paterson or Jersey City, Union City, these are districts which are segregated, if you will, by both poverty and race.

And our court has said despite that the state has a responsibility to give those kids what they need to succeed in school today because they're in school today and they only have one opportunity for an education.

That's the one part, the second and we've done a tremendous, let me stop there for a moment, Steve.

We've done a tremendous job in New Jersey of building equity in our system so that those kids are getting the funding they need, the resources they need.

Preschool, the Abbott Preschool Program is a national model.

We've, doing a lot of work on fixing up the dilapidated school buildings in those districts, so forth.

- Where are we falling short, David?

Where are we falling short?

- On the integration side, the diversity side, we still are one of the most, have one of the most segregated school systems in the country.

Why, it's because the way New Jersey lawmakers in Trenton through policy define where kids go to school.

So we have municipally circumscribed school districts.

You go to school in the town where you live.

We have almost 600 school districts as a result of that.

And the other consequence of that is this intense segregation by poverty and race.

And I should say, Steve, our court, Supreme Court has ruled going back to 1965, that the state has an obligation to address segregation in the public schools and create more opportunities for children to attend schools that are more diverse.

We just simply haven't done a lot on that.

Last thing I'll say on this is- - Let me also say, David, as you're saying this, very few communities and I'm proud to say in Montclair, my hometown, they voluntarily integrated their schools through a so-called magnet school system, that our daughter in fact is a part of.

And the reason I say that is, it costs a ton of money, busing kids all over town and they, kids go back and forth.

So it's not just one community to the next.

It's within.

- Oh yes.

- This town is segregated in many ways by race in communities but kids go to school together.

- Right, it's- - That's rare in New Jersey, David.

- I can't agree with you more.

And one of the things that Education Law Center has, is turning to is the question of what policies can the state start to implement that begin to give children the opportunity both within their districts and across districts to attend schools that are more socioeconomically and racially diverse.

Why is that that is so important now, a quarter way into the 21st century because these kids, these students that are in school today, the society and the democracy that they are gonna enter when they graduate is extraordinarily multicultural and racially diverse today.

And that's just growing.

So the more we give them the opportunity, like your daughter to be in a diverse environment, to learn with kids of other cultures, other races, other socioeconomic backgrounds, the better prepared they're going to be when they graduate, have to go to college and enter the workforce.

- And by the way, check out the interview we did with Mr. Dan Gill.

Mr. Gill, a teacher in the public schools in Montclair is teaching for 50 plus years.

That interview is important because it talks about the importance of having kids learn together.

Before I let you go, David, before we end this program, I'm curious about this, New Jersey is, doesn't simply just have segregated schools.

It has segregated, we're segregated, we are.

To what degree do you believe most parents, most citizens want to live in integrated communities, want their children to be in integrated schools, and separate apart from the politics and policy of this, for many it's choice, it's their choice.

They'd rather be separate, you say?

- You know, it's a, that's a hard question to answer and it's a difficult one.

I think that, you know, when parents have the opportunity for their children to actually be in a diverse learning environment like your daughter, I think they begin to appreciate how important it is.

Was true with my kids.

My public school district is much more diverse.

When my one son went to school and then when my later son went to school is much more diverse.

And the education, and the experience that they got really did prepare them.

So when parents get the opportunity to experience that.

- Right - Then their attitudes change.

But I will say to you, Steve- - Few seconds left, I'm sorry for asking such a loaded question, Dave.

A few seconds, go ahead.

- We need state leadership on this.

When was the last time we had a state politician of any stature, governor, legislative leaders stand up and say, we have to begin to address this.

We have to modernize our public education system to provide more diverse learning environments for our students.

And that's got to be part of the education that we provide to our children across the state.

- David Sciarra, former executive director of the Education Law Center, I just wanna say this to you, David, thank you for your service to this state and to the children of this state.

Thank you, David.

- Steve, I'm not going anywhere, so I'm around.

I'm gonna stay in the struggle.

So let's talk again.

- Job well done.

I'm Steve Adubato.

Way more importantly, let's David Sciarra.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] State of Affairs with Steve Adubato Is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Hackensack Meridian Health.

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NJM Insurance Group.

Operating Engineers, Local 825.

Eastern Atlantic States Regional Council of Carpenters.

Seton Hall University.

And by these public spirited organizations, individuals and associations committed to informing New Jersey citizens about the important issues facing the Garden State.

And by Employers Association of New Jersey.

Promotional support provided by AM970 The Answer.

And by Insider NJ.

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