>> HOST OF "VERMONT THIS WEEK" AND PRESS BUREAU CHIEF NEWS ANA LIST CHRIS GRAFF HAS JUST RELEASE ADD BOOK ON HIS NEW CAREER AND A NEW CHAPTER IN HIS LIFE.

CHRIS GRAFF IS IN I GUEST, NEXT ON PROFILE.

>> BORN IN WESTPORT, CONNECTICUT, HE MOVED HE GRADUATED FROM MIDDLEBURY COLLEGE WHERE WORK AT THE COLLEGE RADIO STATION LANDED HIM HIS FIRST JOB AS NEWS DIRECTOR OF ADDISON BROADCASTING.

IN 1978 HE WAS HIRED BY THE ASSOCIATED PRESS AND WITHIN TWO YEARS HE WAS VERMONT'S A.P.

BUREAU CHIEF, A POSITION HE HELD FOR 25 YEARS UNTIL A CONTROVERSY LAST SPRING.

HAD HEY JUST RELEASED DATELINE VERMONT, COVERING HIS VIEW OF VERMONT'S POLITICAL HISTORY OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS.

A FIXTURE HERE AS HOST OF "VERMONT THIS WEEK" FOR NEARLY 15 YEARS HE WILL BE MOVING ON FROM THAT AS WELL AS HE TAKES A JOB AS VICE PRESIDENT OF COMMUNICATIONS AT NATIONAL LIFE.

IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TABLE.

>> IT'S VERY ODD.

CAN I ASK YOU THE QUESTION?

>> NO, NO, NO.

THIS IS FUN.

HOW DID YOU COME TO LIVE IN VERMONT?

>> BUY MY MOTHER'S MARRIAGE.

MY FATHER DIED WHEN I WAS 10, WE WERE LIVING IN CONNECTICUT, AND MY MOTHER REMARRIED.

WE LIVED AT THE END OF A DIRT ROAD IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, SO I THOUGHT AT THE TIME.

WE MOVED UP HERE IN 1965 AND I WAS 11 AT THE TIME.

>> THAT'S QUITE AN ADJUSTMENT.

>> IT WAS.

I THOUGHT THAT THIS TRULY WAS THE END OF THE WORLD.

I REMEMBER DRIVING UP HERE WITH MY SISTER JUST AFTER THE FOURTH OF JULY WEEKEND IN 1955, AND THE INTERSTATE HADN'T BEEN BUILT ALL THE WAY.

IT WENT TO MANY SMALLER ROADS AND SMALLER ROADS THEN A STREET AND WENT WAY TO THE END.

WENT, WOW!

>> ACTUALLY, YOU MENTIONED A COUPLE OF TIMES YOU VISITED THE STATE HOUSE IN THE 8 THS GRADE AND IT MADE AN IMPRESS ON YOU.

>> I REMEMBER DICK MALLORY.

I HAVE PICTURES ARE FROM THAT TOUR.

EVERY SCHOOL GROUP GOES TO THE STATE HOUSE, RITE OF AS AGE IN VERMONT.

IT'S ALSO A WAY FOR TEACHERS TO JUST GET A FIELD TRIP.

BUT WHEN I WENT THE PICTURES I STILL HAVE FROM THAT VISIT, LITTLE TINY PICTURES ARE FROM THE MEN'S ROOM IN THE BASEMENT, THE BATHROOM IN THE BASEMENT OF THE STATE HOUSE BECAUSE I WAS SO AMAZED, MARBLE WALLS AND URINALS, A BEAUTIFUL, BEAUTIFUL BATHROOM.

>> THAT WAS FOR WOMEN, RIGHT?

>> NO, WHEN THEY BUILT THAT BATHROOM THEY DIDN'T NEED ONE FOR WOMEN BECAUSE THERE WERE NO WOMEN IN THE LEGISLATURE.

SO WHEN I CAME BACK AS A REPORTER IN THE '70s, I KEPT SAYING, I KNEW THERE WAS A BATHROOM HERE.

IT'S ALL I CAN REMEMBER FROM WHEN I CAME UP HERE IN '83, BUT IT'S A BATHROOM USED ONLY FOR LARGE GROUPS.

IT'S IN THE BASEMENT OF THE STATE HOUSE.

TOOK ME MANY YEARS TO FIND THE BATHROOM.

>> GREAT.

YOU MIGHT HAVE CONSIDERED A CAREER IN JOURNALISM OR POLITICS BUT YOUR MAJOR WAS DRAMA ACTUALLY.

>> I WENT TO MIDDLEBURY IT WAS DRAMA.

THEN IN THE SMALL WORLD DEPARTMENT WHEN I WAS A FRESHMAN AT MIDDLEBURY I WAS -- I WAS SITTING OUTSIDE THE STUDENT UNION WHEN THE NEWS DIRECTOR OF THE RADIO STATION CAME BY LOOKING FOR PEOPLE TO COVER THE FUNERAL OF WINSTON CROWDIE, A U.S.

SENATOR THAT HAD JUST DIED.

SOUNDS FUN TO ME SO I DID IT.

THE NEWS DIRECTOR'S NAME WAS JIM DOUGLAS.

HE WAS A GREAT NEWS DIRECTOR, WONDERFUL BROADCAST VOICE.

HE WAS WHO OPENED THE DOOR TO BROADCAST JOURNALISM.

AT MIDDLEBURY COLLEGE I GOT VERY ACTIVE, STATION MANAGER OF THE COLLEGE RADIO STATION.

HE WENT ON TO BECOME GOVERNOR.

>> WHAT WAS HE LIKE THEN?

>> NO DIFFERENT.

[LAUGHTER] NO DIFFERENT AT ALL.

HE WAS ACTIVE IN THE YOUNG REPUBLICANS, WHICH WE'RE TALKING EARLY 1970s, WE'RE TALKING SOON AFTER KENT STATE, VIETNAM.

IT WAS NOT A TIME WHEN YOU SAW MANY YOUNG REPUBLICANS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES AND YET HE WAS VERY ACTIVE IN THE YOUNG REPUBLICANS, HAD AS HE DOES TODAY BUT HAD THEN JUST THIS TREMENDOUS SENSE OF HUMOR, A GREAT PERSON.

>> GOT YOU YOUR START IN THE FIELD.

YOUR FIRST JOB OUT OF MIDDLEBURY WAS WFAB IN MIDDLEBURY AS A NEWS DIRECTOR.

>> THAT WAS IT.

I WAS HERE FIRST.

THEY HAD NO NEWS DIRECTOR BEFORE ME.

BUT THEY WERE JUST STARTING AN FM STATION AT THE TIME SO THEY THOUGHT IF THEY WOULD HAVE TWO STATIONS THEY OUGHT TO START COVERING LOCAL EVENTS.

I WAS THE NEWS STAFF.

I DID MORNING BROADCAST THROUGH NOON, THEN I COULD GO HOME AND TAKE A NAP.

THEN IN THE EVENING I WOULD GO COVER SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS -- WE TRIED TO COVER EVERYTHING IN ADDISON COUNTY.

>> LONG DAY.

YOU ALWAYS HAD AMBITION TO WORK FOR THE ASSOCIATED PRESS.

YOU TRIED A COUPLE OF TIMES AND CLEARLY THIS WAS SOMETHING YOU WANTED.

AFTER TWO OR THREE TIMES YOU WERE HIRED ABOUT THREE YEARS LATER, IN '78.

>> I WENT TO WORK FOR THEM IN 1978 IN THE FALL.

I STARTED THE DAY AFTER THE PRIMARY.

STARTED THE DAY BEFORE THE PRIMARY BUT MY FIRST BY LINE WAS THE DAY AFTER THE PRIMARY, JERRY BUCKLEY, WHO WAS GOVERNOR, LOST HIS RACE TO PEETEER SMITH IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY.

I COVERED THAT REPUBLICAN UNITY LUNCHEON.

>> WHY DID YOU WANT TO WORK FOR THE A.P.

SO MUCH?

WHY WAS THAT YOUR TARGET?

>> WELSHING THE A.P.

IS THE LARGE OF THE NEWS GATHERING ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD AND IN VERMONT IT WAS A HUGE THING EVEN IN THE 1970s.

BEST BROADCASTERS IN THE STATE -- BROADCASTING WAS VERY DIFFERENT IN THE STATE THEN.

WHEN I WORKED AT WITH, FAB, I THINK WE HAD 20 TO 25 STATIONS THAT HAD REAL NEWS DEPARTMENTS AROUND THE STATE AND WE ALL WORKED TOGETHER WITH THE A.P.

COVERING THE STATE.

NOW WE HAVE MAYBE THREE STATIONS IN VERMONT WITH NEWSROOMS.

>> WITHIN A MONTH OF THAT FIRST STORY THAT YOU DID A BIG STORY THAT INCLUDES RENOWNED LAWYER WOMEN KUNTSLER AND THE FBI AND ALL OF THESE THINGS.

WAS THAT SWITCH RIDING FOR NEWSPAPERS RATHER THAN BROADCAST?

WAS THAT AN ADJUSTMENT ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE WORK SON SOMETHING YOU KNOW THOUSANDS OF NEWSPAPERS WILL PICK UP?

>> IT WAS HUGE, FROM ONE OF THE BIGGEST IN VERMONT IN MANY DECADES THAT WENT AROUND THE WORLD.

IT WAS THE WEST GERMAN ALLEGED TERRORIST CHRISTINA BURSTTER WHO CAME ACROSS THE CANADIAN BORED INTO VERMONT AND WE LEARNED ABOUT IT BECAUSE WILLIAM WEBSTER, THE FBI DIRECTOR, HELD A NEWS CONFERENCE IN WASHINGTON AND ANNOUNCED THE CAPTURE OF HER.

THERE WAS THIS ATTEMPT AT THE TIME TO SORT OF RATCHET UP, SEE, WE CAUGHT THIS TERRORIST COMING ACROSS THE BORDER.

SO THE TRIAL HAD ATTENTION ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

FOR ME, IT WAS MY FIRST MAJOR ASSIGNMENT AND THE REASON I GOT IT WE ONLY HAVE THREE PEOPLE IN THE BUREAU AT THE TIME, I WAS BRAND NEW AND I NEVER REALLY WRITTEN A UP IN STORY BEFORE BUT THE OTHER TWO PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE FELT THAT I WASN'T READY ENOUGH TO HANDLE WHAT HAD TO HAPPEN IN THE BUREAU SO IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR ME TO BE WORKING AT THE TRIAL.

SO THEY SENT ME TO BURLINGTON TO FEDERAL COURT AND LUCKILY THEY STAYED IN THE BUREAU TO HELP TURN MY COPY INTO SOMETHING THAT COULD BE READ AROUND THE WORLD.

IT WAS A GREAT, FUN TRIAL AT THE TIME.

VERY HIGH TENSION AND STRESS FOR ME.

AS YOU SAID WATCHING BILL COUNTRIES LETTER WORK HIS THEATRICS IN VERMONT AGAINST BILL GRAY, WHO WAS THE U.S.

ATTORNEY AT THE TIME, TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES.

THE JUDGE AT THE TIME WAS A NO NONSENSE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN AND HE DIDN'T REALLY LIKE ALL OF THE THEATRICS THAT WERE HAPPENING IN HIS COURTROOM, BUT COUNTRIES LETTER PLAYED TO THE PRESS.

>> WHAT MAKES A GOOD WIRE SERVICE REPORTER?

>> NO TWO ARE ALIKE IN THAT SOMETIMES YOU NEED SOMEONE WHO CAN COVER SPORTS, COVER POLITICS, BUT THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IS ALL TO REALLY BE FAST AND PERCEPTIVE.

YOU JUST HAVE TO BE ABLE TO IF YOU'RE AT A GOVERNOR'S NEWS CONFERENCE YOU LITERALLY AS YOU'RE LISTENING TO THE SPEECH HAVE TO FIGURING OUT YOUR LEAD AND WHAT THE STORY IS IT BECAUSE BY THE TIME YOU GET BACK TO THE OFFICE YOU HAVE TO WRITE THE STORY.

NOW ACTUALLY WITH COMMUNICATIONS BEING WHAT THEY ARE SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE WRITING THE STORY WHILE THEY ARE SITTING AT THE GOVERNOR'S NEWS CONFERENCE AND TRANSMITTING IT THROUGH WIRELESS TECHNOLOGY.

THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT -- THEN THE OTHER THING OF COURSE IS THE WIRE SERVICE HAS TO BE BALANCED.

HAS TO BE ABLE TO WRITE A STORY THAT WILL RUN IN PAPERS THAT MAY BE VERY CONSERVATIVE IN THEIR EDITORIAL PHILOSOPHY AND THOSE THAT ARE VERY LIBERAL IN THEIR EDITORIAL PHILOSOPHY.

>> I LOVE THE STORY DURING THE COURT TRIAL HOW YOU CALLED ON -- THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN NOW BECAUSE WE HAVE CELLPHONES.

YOU CALLED ON THE PUBLIC PHONE TO THE BUREAU, LEFT THE PHONE HANGING THERE SO YOU COULD RUN AND PICK UP THE PHONE AND BEAT THOME TO THE STORY.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF I BIT HEAM BUT THAT WAS THE SCARIEST THING FOR ME, GOING TO THAT FIRST BIG NATIONAL, INTERNATIONAL STORY AND ANDY PAGE WAS THE REPORTER FOR THE UPI.

PEOPLE KNOW HER FROM "VERMONT THIS WEEK," THE BURLINGTON FREE PRESS.

AT THE TIME SHE WAS WITH UPI.

I KNEW HER THEN AS A VERY, VERY, VERY COMPETITIVE REPORTER.

SO I THOUGHT I'M AS GREEN AS THEY COME.

SHE'S PRETTY SEASONED.

I WAS NERVOUS THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL.

THE TRIAL LASTED A WHOLE MONTH.

>> YOU DID WELL.

HOUSE IS IT DIFFERENT AT THE STATE HOUSE AND THE WAY IT'S CONDUCTED THAN IT IS NOW?

>> IN MANY WAYS.

MUCH LESS FORMAL.

MUCH LESS PARTISAN.

THE THEME OF WHAT I WROTE ABOUT PRIMARILY IS HOW THE STATE HAS MOVED FROM THE REPUBLICAN STATE TO A DEMOCRATIC STATE.

WHEN I FIRST STARTED COVERING THE LEGISLATURE THE LEGISLATURE WAS REPUBLICAN, THOUGH WHEN I FIRST STARTED COVERING FOR THE A.M., AND ACCEPTED A.P.

AND EVEN AS A REPORTER THERE WAS A DEMOCRATIC SPEAKER, TIM WAS PRETTY CONSERVATIVE, MODERATE DEMOCRAT EQUALLY LIKED BY REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

THE LEGISLATURE WAS REPUBLICAN.

THE GOVERNORS WERE REPUBLICAN.

PAT LEAHY HAD JUST BEEN ELECTED IN '74.

HE WAS AT THE TIME, STILL IS THE ONLY DEMOCRAT EVER ELECTED TO THE U.S.

SENATE FROM VERMONT.

IT WAS A VERY REPUBLICAN STATE.

IN THE STATE HOUSE IT WAS MUCH LESS FORMAL.

THE LET LATORS TRULY WERE CITIZENS WHO JUST GAVE UP MAYBE FOUR MONTHS OF THEIR LIFE, CAME UP USUALLY BACK THEN THEY WOULD ALL STAY.

THIS IS DIFFERENT TODAY WHERE LEGISLATORS ARE YOUNGER, THEY HAVE YOUNG FAMILIES AT HOME SO THEY TENDS TO TRY TO GET HOME AT NIGHT.

LEGISLATORS WOULD STAY.

THEY WOULD PLAY CARDS, THEIR SPOUSES WOULD BE THERE AND WE WOULD BE SITTING IN THE GALLERY KNITTING OR WHATEVER.

IT WAS GENERALLY A MALE ORIENTED LEGISLATURE AT THE TIME.

SO IT'S MUCH MORE INFORMAL.

WE SAW THAT NOT ONLY IN THE EVENING -- >> YOU MIGHT EVEN SOCIALIZE WITH THEM.

>> WE DID.

THAT WAS AN INTERESTING THING.

WHEN TOM SANDLER WAS GOVERNOR WE WOULD BE SOCIALIZING WITH HIM.

WE WOULD GO IN THE EVENING AND LEGISLATORS AND YOU WOULD CHAT WITH THEM AND THE GOVERNOR MIGHT BE THERE AND YOU WOULD CHAT WITH HIM.

YOU SAW THAT DISAPPEAR ABOUT THE MID '80s, BECOME MUCH MORE FORMAL.

THE PRESS BEGAN TO REALIZE THESE RELATIONSHIPS ARE NOT HEALTHY TO WHAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING.

GOVERNORS ALWAYS USED TO HAVE IN NONELECTION YEARS THEY ALWAYS USED TO HAVE BARBECUES FOR THE PRESS AT THEIR HOMES.

WE WOULD GO AND FIRST COMPETITIVE GRILLING HE WAS VERY JUST LIKE HIS PERSONALITY, HE WAS REALLY TOOK IT VERY SERIOUSLY GRILLING THOSE HAMBURGERS.

MADELEINE CUBANEN I REMEMBER CONTINUED THE PRACTICE.

DURING HER ADMINISTRATION A LOT OF THE PRESS BEGAN TO SAY WHY ARE WE GOING TO HER HOME AND TAKING HER FOOD?

CAN WE STILL WRITE ABOUT HER OBJECTIVELY?

THOSE PRACTICES ENDED THEN AND YOU BEGAN TO SEE A MUCH MORE FORMAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PRESS AND POLITICIANS.

>> IT SAYS IN YOUR BOOK THAT BOTH GOVERNOR SNELLING AND GOVERNOR CUBANEN CHALLENGED YOU HOW TO WRITE ABOUT THEM.

SNELLING IMPRESSED UPON HOW LANGUAGE THAT THE PRESS USES CAN HINDER OR SUPPORT THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

CAN YOU ELABORATE?

>> I HAVE NEVER MET ANYONE, ANY POLITICIAN WHO WASN'T SENSITIVE TO WHAT WE WRITE ABOUT THEM OR WROTE ABOUT THEM BUT NONE HAS BEEN MORE SENSITIVE THAN DICK SNELLING.

HE GAVE A TALK TO THE PRESS ASSOCIATION IN 1977 AND IN THAT SPEECH HE SAID YOU KNOW, EVERYONE SAYS I'M THIN SKINNED.

THAT I CARE ABOUT BA YOU WRITE ABOUT ME.

YOU KNOW WHAT?

I DO.

BECAUSE WE ARE WHAT YOU SAY WE ARE.

THAT WAS ESPECIALLY TRUE THEN.

IT'S NOT AS TRUE NOW WITH THE INTERNET AND OTHER WAYS THAT POLITICIAN IT IS HAVE TO COMMUNICATE.

THE ONLY WAY THAT PEOPLE KNEW WHAT A GOVERNOR WAS DOING WAS HOW THE PRESS REPORTED ON THEM.

DICK SNELLING READ EVERY STORY CAREFULLY AND DISSECTED THOSE CAREFULLY.

ONE EXAMPLE I SITE WAS I ONCE OFFHANDEDLY MENTIONED IN A STORY HOW HE WAS RELYING ON MADELEINE CUBANNEN FOR HELP GETTING A BUDGET PASSED.

THE TWO OF THEMIN' LEASHED VERBAL ASSAULTS -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE PHRASE -- ON HER.

HE WROTE ME A TWO OR THREE PAGE LETTER THE NEXT DAY SAYING WHAT DO YOU MEAN ASSAULT?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

I HAVE NEVER ASSAULTED HER.

IT WAS A THROW-AWAY LINE.

TRYING TO HYPE THE STORY AND THE SENSE OF THE RELATIONSHIP PUT HE TOOK ALL OF THOSE WORDS VERY CAREFULLY AND I THINK THAT MADE US MORE CAREFUL OURSELVES.

ONE OF THE PRACTICES HE STARTED IN THE AWZ 70s WAS HE TAPE RECORDED ALL OF HIS NEWS CONFERENCES.

HE WAS THE THE FIRST GOVERNOR TO DO THAT.

HE WOULD PUT DOWN HIS TAPE MACHINE RIGHT THERE SO WE WOULD KNOW THAT HE HAD A TAPED TRANSCRIPT OF WHAT WAS SAID SO WE WERE MORE CAREFUL AND PRETTY SOON WE WERE PUTTING DOWN OUR OWN TAPE MACHINES NEXT TO HIM AND IT MADE US ALL A LITTLE MORE -- BETTER REPORTER TOO.

>> AND MADELEINE CUBANEN WAS CONCERNED ABOUT HOW YOU COVERED HER AS A WOMAN GOVERNOR.

>> SHE WAS VERY SENSITIVE TO IT.

I THINK THAT IT WAS AN AREA WHERE WU HAD A LOT OF DISAGREEMENTS.

SHE WAS VERY DIFFERENT NOT ONLY -- IT WAS DIFFERENT OF COURSE TO COVER A WOMAN GOVERNOR.

IT WAS VERY DIFFERENT TO HAVE A WOMAN GOVERNOR.

IT MAY BE HARDER FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT TODAY WHERE WE SEE MANY MORE WOMEN IN POLITICS, BUT IT WAS VERY DIFFERENT.

THAT SAID, MADELEINE KU NEN FILE WAS VERY DIFFERENT THAN SOME WOMEN AND VERY DIFFERENT THAN DIG SNELLING.

ANYONE WHO FOLLOWED DICK SNELLING AS GOVERNOR WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE COMPARED AND CONTRASTED THEIR SOMETIMES AND ABILITY.

MADELEINE KU NEN TOOK IT VERY PERSONALLY AND THOUGHT WE WERE CRITICAL OF HER BECAUSE SHE WAS A WOMAN, BUT IN FACT THE CRITICISMS WERE MORE ABOUT HER -- SHE REALLY DID TRY HARD MORE FOR CONSENSUS AND SHE SAID, WELL, THAT'S BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN.

OUR REACTION WAS WOMEN DIFFER TOO.

GOVERNOR GRASSO OGOVERNOR RICHARDS.

WOMEN CAN BE VERY STRONG, DOMINATING LEADERS AS WELL.

MADELEINE'S STYLE WAS DIFFERENT.

IT TOOK US A WHILE TO UNDERSTAND THAT.

WE HAD TO ADJUST TO HER.

SHE NEVER QUITE FELT COMFORTABLE.

IT US WHAT UNUSUAL ROLE FOR HER.

>> 15 YEARS AGO YOU ACTUALLY PRODUCED A PIECE CALLED THE GOVERNORS, A SERIES ON THE GOVERNORS FOR VERMONT PUBLIC TELEVISION.

THIS IS YOUR FIRST FORAY INTO THAT BUSINESS.

>> THAT WAS FANTASTIC.

FOR VTV, WHICH AT THE TIME WAS ETV, TO DO THAT WAS JUST REMARKABLE.

I HAD ALWAYS WANTED TO DO IT.

VERMONT WITH ITS TWO-YEAR TERMS HAD AT THE TIME SEVEN LIVING EX GOVERNORS AND I THOUGHT, WE'RE GOING TO LOSE THIS -- TREASURE TROVE OF HISTORY.

SO DEMYO, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER HERE, CONVINCED HIM THAT WE OUGHT TO DO THE SERIES.

WE WENT TO EVERY EX GOVERNOR'S HOME AND WE SAT DOWN AND TALKED WITH THEM.

THEN WE CONTINUED IT ACTUALLY AFTER MADELEINE WUNEN LEFT AND DID HER TOO.

WE HAVEN'T DONE HOWARD DEAN.

>> OR JIM DOUGLAS.

ANOTHER THING YOUR BOOK ILLUMINATES IS THIS BALANCE AROUND THE GOVERNORSHIP.

THAT BACK AND FORTH, BACK AND FORTH.

>> SINCE 1962, THE OFFICE OF GOVERNOR WHEN IT HAS ROTATED HAS ROTATED BETWEEN REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

NOT TO TALK TAKE IT ALL THE WAY TRUE, IN 1968 THE STATE WAS GIVEN THE CHOICE BETWEEN HIS OWN LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, PROTEGE, AND A REPUBLICAN CONSERVATIVE BUSINESSMAN, THE PRESIDENT OF NATURAL LIFE AND THEY WENT WITH DEAN DAVIS.

IT WENT FROM THERE.

EVERY TIME THE STATE HAS CHAWNGED IT'S AS IF THEY TAKE A PERIOD OF EXPANSION AND THEY REALLY WANT A PERIOD OF STABILITY AFTER IT.

>> NOT NECESSARILY GOING WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE.

>> NO.

IT'S VERY MUCH I THINK PERSONALITY ORIENTED TOO AS TO WHO THE STYLES OF THOSE PEOPLE.

IT'S WHAT THEY REPRESENT.

TAKE MADELEINE KU NEN'S ELECTION.

JOHN EASTON IN 1984 WAS RUNNING VERY STRONG AFTER THE PRIMARY, LOOKED LIKE HE WOULD WIN THAT ELECTION.

REPUBLICAN COMING IN AFTER DICK SNELLING AND DICK SNELLING WAS POPULAR.

BUT HE MADE THIS LITTLE REMARK, OFF-HANDED REMARK IN AN INTERVIEW, WELL, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE GOT SOME FISCAL TROUBLES.

THE GOVERNOR FOR THE NEXT YEAR OR SO WILL BE PRETTY MUCH A CARETAKER.

MADELEINE KU NEN JUMPED ON IT.

WE WILL NOT HAVE A CARETAKER.

IT'S TIME FOR LEADERSHIP.

THAT'S WHAT MADE THE DIFFERENCE IN THAT RACE.

>> LANGUAGE.

HOW DID VERMONT GO FROM BEING ONE OF THE MOST CONSERVATIVE STATES IN THE UNITED STATES TO BEING NOW WHAT PEOPLE CALL THE MOST LIBERAL STATE?

>> WELL, A LOT OF FACTORS, TO ME THE BIGGEST ONE THAT I CITE AND BELIEVE IN WAS THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE INTERSTATE.

IT BROUGHT A WHOLE NEW THING IN.

ALL THE THINGS THAT WERE HAPPENING IN THE LATE '50s, EARLY '60s, CONSTRUCTION OF THE INTERSTATE, THE ARRIVAL OF IMB, THE MARKETING OF VERMONT AS THE BECKONING COUNTRY, BUILDING UP OF THE SKI RESORTS AND EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE CAME TO MIDDLE BOROUGH OR BENNINGTON OR MARLBOROUGH AND THEY JUST STAYED.

>> AFTER WORKING FOR THE ASSOCIATED PRESS FOR 27 YEARS, 25 AS BUREAU CHIEF, YOU WERE FIRED LAST MONTH.

IS THERE ANYTHING MORE YOU CAN TELL US AFTER -- BILL O'REILLY AND FOX NEWS AND THIS OP-ED BY LEAHY IT SEEMED, THE REASON SEEMED LAME TO MANY.

THERE WERE LETTERS WRITTEN AND EVERYONE WAS UPSET.

IS THERE ANY MORE YOU CAN TELL US?

>> I KNOW NO MORE THAN WHAT WAS IN THE TERMINATION LETTER WHICH THE A.P.

ALUED ME TO RELEASE.

THAT'S IN THE BOOK TOO.

WHICH IS THAT THEY CITED THIS RELEASE OF THE COLUMN ON WHAT'S CALLED SUNSHINE WEEK, WRITTEN ABOUT FREEDOM OF INFORMATION.

THEY THOUGHT IT WAS INAPPROPRIATE BECAUSE IT WAS TOO HARSH A CRITICISM OF PRESIDENT BURKE AND HIS ADMINISTRATION.

AS FAR AS I KNOW THAT'S THE REASON.

>> YOU PUBLISHED SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR THE YEAR BEFORE.

>> THE DIFFERENCE WAS THEY SAID NO ONE SAW IT THEN.

>> WHAT WAS IT LIKE GETTING SO MUCH ATTENTION FROM BILL O'REILLY?

>> WELL, THAT WAS -- THROUGHOUT A LOT OF WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT VERMONT AND WHAT I COVERED IN THOSE 25, 27 OR 30 YEARS, SO MANY CONTROVERSIAL EVENTS AND I THINK MANY OF THEM POLARIZING.

BILL O'REILLY WAS ONE WITH JUDGE CASHMAN AND HAVING HIM, BILL O'REILLY SINGLE ME OUT OR TELEVISION FOR BEING SYMPATHETIC TO JUDGE CASHMAN.

BUT CIVIL UNIONS WAS THE SAME WAY.

HOWARD DEAN'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN OR JIM JEFFORDS.

COVERING THAT -- OR ACT 60.

EDUCATION FINANCING.

PEOPLE IN VERMONT AND ELSEWHERE WOULD BE VERY POLARIZED BY MANY OF THE EVENTS.

CIVIL UNIONS BEING OF COURSE I THINK AT THE TOP OF THE LIST.

IN THE CIVIL UNIONS YEAR, 2000, IT WAS THE TOUGHEST I HAD EVER HAD AS A JOURNALIST.

I THINK MY STAFF HAD TOO.

I THINK AFTER THAT ELECTION IN 2000 IF SOMEONE HAD SAID, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO DO X, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE DONE IT.

IT WAS AN EMOTIONALLY DRAINING YEAR NOT ONLY FOR THE STATE BUT FOR THOSE OF US WHO WERE COVERING IT BECAUSE WE WERE TRYING TO TELL THE STORY BUT NO MATTER WHAT WE SAID EACH SIDE THOUGHT THAT WE WERE AGAINST THEM.

>> IN A WAY THAT SAYS YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF IT ALL.

CRITICISM FROM BOTH SIDES.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

>> WHY NOT TAKE ANOTHER PRESS JOB?

>> WELL, I LOOKED AT A LOT OF OPTIONS BETWEEN MARCH AND WHEN I MADE THE DECISION TO GO TO WORK FOR NATIONAL LIFE.

SOME WERE JOURNALISM, SOME WERE IN BUSINESS, SOME ACADEMICS.

THE FIRST DECISION WE MADE WAS TO STAY IN VERMONT.

ONCE WE MADE THAT THAT LIMITED THE UNIVERSE.

AS I WENT THROUGH THE OPTIONS, THE NATIONAL LIFE JOB OFFERS THE GREATEST CHALLENGES AND I REALLY FEEL IT'S A GOOD TIME TO MOVE ON.

I HAD A GREAT RUN AS A JOURNALIST, THE CHAPTERS JUST ENDING, THE BOOK COMES OUT, THE ELECTION IS OVER.

TIME TO TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I ACTUALLY AM REALLY EXCITED ABOUT NATIONAL LIFE.

NATIONAL LIFE, DEAN DAVIS, WE MENTIONED HIM, CAME FROM NATIONAL LIFE.

IT'S PLAYED AN INTEGRAL ROLE IN THE STATE SINCE THE 1850s.

SO IT HAS A LOT OF TIES TO THE STATE.

I HOPE I CAN BUILD ON THAT.

>> WILL YOU STILL DO SOME NEWS ANALYSIS OR MORE BOOKS LIKE THIS?

>> I WOULD HOPE THAT I CAN DO SOMETHING.

I WOULD HATE TO HAVE THIS WHOLE BODY OF KNOWLEDGE AND NOT BE ABLE TO USE IT IN SOME WAY.

BUT THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS FOR WRITING THE BOOK BECAUSE THERE IS A VERY DEFINED PERIOD HERE FROM THE '60s TO NOW WHERE WE WENT FROM BEING THE MOST REPUBLICAN STATE WHERE WE JUST ELECTED BERNIE SANDERS TO THE UNITED STATES SENATE.

TO ME IT'S A VERY DEFINITE PERIOD.

>> I WAS WONDERING ABOUT PRESS JOBS.

THERE ARE FEWER REPORTERS IN VERMONT NOW THAN EVER BEFORE.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON THE STATE OF NEWS COVERAGE HERE IN THE STATE AND MAYBE NATIONWIDE?

>> WELL, I -- LIKE SAUSAGE AND DEMOCRACY.

SHOULDN'T SEE IT BEING MADE.

I AM WORRIED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF JOURNALISM.

WE'RE SEEING CORPORATE PRESSURES THAT ARE HAPPENING ARE CAUSING ALL OF THESE CUTBACKS.

THE A.P.

IS CHANGING, THE PAPERS ARE CHANGING.

IS THERE A GREAT FEAR OF WHETHER THEY CAN SURVIVE IN AN INTERNET WORLD.

THEY DON'T YET KNOW THE MODEL ON HOW TO DO THAT, SO WE'RE SEEING A LOT OF CUTBACKS BECAUSE THEY ARE SEEING DECLINING CIRCULATION, DECLINING REVENUE.

>> WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

I KNOW YOU KNOW THAT LINE.

CHRIS GRAFF, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

GOODNIGHT.