>> I APPRECIATE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR AIRING THIS ISSUE.

>> FOR THE OPPOSING VIEWPOINT, WE'RE JOINED BY CHRIS MOKLER, DIRECTOR OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS FOR THE WISCONSIN REAL ESTATE INVESTORS ASSOCIATION.

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> SO WHAT WOULD BE THE IMPACT OF THIS RULE CHANGE FOR LANDLORDS?

>> WELL, THE BIGGEST THING THAT THIS DOES IS IT CREATES MORE WORK FOR THE LANDLORDS AND IT ALSO HARMS OTHER TENANTS, OTHER GOOD TENANTS.

I'LL EXPLAIN THE SECOND ONE FIRST.

IF THIS RULE WERE PUT INTO EFFECT, GOOD TENANTS WHO PAY THEIR RENT ON TIME ARE NOW GOING TO BE EQUAL IN THEIR FOOTING ON THEIR APPLICATIONS WITH TENANTS THAT HAVE HAD EVICTIONS.

A LANDLORD, FOR THE FIRST PART OF MY ANSWER, WAS THE LANDLORD IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO MORE RESEARCH, BECAUSE A LANDLORD OWES A DUTY TO NOT ONLY OTHER TENANTS OF THE BUILDING BUT NEIGHBORS TO THE BUILDINGS IN THE CITIES BECAUSE IF THERE'S A PROBLEM, THOSE ARE THE FIRST PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO BE UPSET, WHICH IS GOING TO BE POLICE CALLS, IT'S GOING TO BE PROBLEM WITH CITY LEADERS AND HAVE TO BE DEALT WITH AND NOBODY LIKES THAT.

>> WHAT PERCENTAGE OF LANDLORDS USE WISCONSIN'S ELECTRONIC CASE SEARCH TO RESEARCH PERSPECTIVE RENTERS?

IS IT NEARLY ALL WILL DO SOME CURSORY SEARCH?

>> I WOULD ASSUME THAT.

THERE'S NO WAY FOR ME TO HAVE A NUMBER.

IT'S AB AVAILABLE SERVICE TO JUST LIKE A BANK AND WHEN IT'S GIVING YOU A LOAN, THEY LOOK AT YOUR CREDIT REPORT.

THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS A LANDLORD CAN LOOK AND BE SURE THEY'RE PUTTING A GOOD TENANT IN THEIR BUILDING.

>> DO YOU THINK ALL OF THOSE LANDLORDS UNDERSTAND THAT SOME OF THOSE EVICTION NOTICE MAY HAVE BEEN FILED INACADEMICALLY OR WEREN'T ACTUALLY RUTTING IN A FULL EVICTION AND THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND A FULL EVICTION, AND SHOULD THERE BE A DIFFERENCE?

>> WE'VE BEEN PROMOTE THAT GO TO OUR LANDLORDS, JUST DON'T LOOK AT THE FIRST PAGE THAT LOOKS AT EVICTIONS AND DIG INTO IT AND LOOK AT IT.

SOME MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN A STIPULATED DISMISSAL WHERE THEY CAME TO AN AGREEMENT AND THAT AGREEMENT IS PUT IN WRITING AND SIGNED AND THE JUDGE SIGNS OFF THE ON IT.

THERE COULD BE LOTS OF REASONS.

WE CERTAINLY TEACH TO DIG INTO IT.

A LOT OF LANDLORDS WILL RENT TO PEOPLE WITH EVICTIONS BUT THEY WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE SITUATION WAS WITH EVICTION.

>> WITH THIS TIGHT HOUSING MARKET, WHAT ARE NUMBER OF PEOPLE APPLYING FOR AN APARTMENT OR A UNIT SOMEWHERE?

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY THEY'RE GETTING A LOT OF PEOPLE APPLYING FOR UNITS.

IT'S MAYBE SLOWING DOWN A LITTLE BIT NOW.

RENTS ARE BECOMING A LITTLE BIT MORE LEVELED OFF AND NOB AND OBY THERE'S BEEN MORE APARTMENTS BUILT IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, NOT ENOUGH, WE STILL NEED HOUSING IN WISCONSIN, NOT ONLY SINGLE-FAMILY HOMES, BUT APARTMENTS.

SO IT'S BEEN WORKING OUT AND, YEAH, THE LANDLORDS GETTING A LOT OF APPLICATIONS SHOWING THEIR APARTMENT A LOT OF TIMES.

WHEN I LEAVE HERE, I'M GOING TO BE SHOWING AN APARTMENT TWO TIMES.

>> SO THE TENANT ADVOCACY GROUPS ARE SAYING THAT THESE RECORDS SHOULD BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT HOUSING IS A HUMAN RIGHT.

SHOULD THAT PLAY INTO THIS ARGUMENT BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT?

>> HOUSING IS A HUMAN RIGHT, PERHAPS, BUT IT'S UP TO SOME TENANTS THAT HAVE EVICTIONS AND, UNFORTUNATELY, REPEATED EVICTIONS.

LANDLORDS AREN'T GOING TO AUTOMATICALLY NOT TAKE YOU JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE AN EVICTION.

THEY'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THE SCENARIO.

BUT WHEN YOU HAVE SEVERAL EVICTIONS, OWING A LOT OF MONEY AND NO EFFORT FROM WHAT WE CAN TELL TO PAY IT BACK, THEREFORE, IT GETS TO BE A PROBLEM OF WHY SHOULD YOU RELY ON A MOM AND POP OPERATION THAT MAY ONLY OWN A COUPLE OF UNITS, LIKE MOST LANDLORDS IN WISCONSIN DO, TO RISK THEIR FINANCIAL FUTURE, OFTENTIMES THESE LANDLORDS HAVE ANOTHER JOB AND THEY'RE DOING THIS ON THE SIDE AND, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE GOT TO MAKE A BANK PAYMENT.

ACCORDING TO THE NATIONAL APARTMENT ASSOCIATION, ONLY ABOUT 7 CENTS, MAYBE A LITTLE LESS FOR SMALL LANDLORDS, OF EVERY DOLLAR OF RENT, ASSUMING THAT THE RENT IS PAID IN FULL, ACTUALLY GOES TO THE LANDLORD.

SO ONE LITTLE HICCUP AND THE LANDLORD'S NOT MAKING ANY MONEY.

THEY HAVE TO PAY THE TAXES AND THE UTILITIES, ALL THAT STUFF.

>> THIS RULE CHANGE IS LOOKING TO MAKE A CONSIDERABLE TIME LINE CHANGE, FOR UP TO 20 YEARS FOR A RECORD FOLLOWING SOMEONE ON-LINE VERSUS JUST ONE YEAR.

IS THERE A HAPPY MEDIUM?

LIKE HOW VALUABLE IS AN EVICTION RECORD FOR 20 YEARS AGO VERSUS ONE FROM TWO OR THREE YEARS AGO?

>> WELL, IN ACT 317 FROM I BELIEVE IT WAS 2021, 2020, I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK, WE ACTUALLY PROPOSED THE RULE CHANGE THAT THE STATE IS NOT CURRENTLY FOLLOWING, AND I CAN'T GET INTO -- THERE'S A LOT TO IT, WHICH WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR, BUT THERE'S A TWO-YEAR LIMIT ON CERTAIN EVICTIONS THAT CAN BE REMOVED FROM C-CAP, THE AUTOMATION PROGRAM, THAT WE ACTUALLY PROPOSED, AND THEY WANT TO CHANGE THAT TO ONE YEAR.

WE JUST THINK THAT'S TOO TIGHT.

>> SO WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT HERE.

WHAT HAVE THE COUNTY CLERK OF COURTS SAY THAT THE AMOUNT OF RENTERS ASKING JUDGES TO EX-EXPUNGES THESE RECORDS IMMEDIATELY AFTER AN EVICTION IS FILED OR CLOSED IS ON A DRAMATIC UPTICK, THAT MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE DOING THIS.

SO WOULD A MORE UNIFORMED POLICY MAKE SENSE IF SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE EASILY ABLE TO GET THEIR PERSONAL EVICTION RECORDS ERASED WHEN SOME PEOPLE AREN'T?

>> UNIFORM POLICY -- YOU SEE THIS HAPPENING A LOT IN MILWAUKEE AND PERHAPS IN MADISON.

OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A LOT MO MORE TENANTS THERE.

WHEN IT COMES TO GETTING IT -- I THINK THE CURRENT LAW SHOULD BE FOLLOWED, WHICH IN SOME CASES, WE DON'T THINK IT IS AS FAR AS EXPUNGEMENT.

THERE'S CERTAIN CASES WHERE EXPUNGEMENT IS GOOD AND OTHER CASES WHERE IT'S NOT OPEN RECORDS FOR ALL TO SEE LIKE WE DO HERE IN WISCONSIN.

>> ALL RIGHT.