♪ MUSIC REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS, AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE HAVE A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT GUEST TODAY, I'D LIKE TO INTRODUCE CHRIS SCHAUM, WHO IS A WILDFIRE LITIGATION SPECIALIST, AMONG OTHER THINGS, AN ARBORIST, A REALLY EXTRAORDINARY JOURNEY YOU'VE BEEN ON, AND YOU'LL TELL US ABOUT THAT.

BUT I'VE ASKED YOU TO COME IN AND TALK TO US ABOUT FIRE, PEOPLE ARE VERY WORRIED ABOUT FIRE, CONCERNED ABOUT FIRE, AND I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH ABOUT WILDFIRES FROM YOU THAT I THOUGHT EVERYBODY NEEDS TO KNOW THIS, SO WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>>CHRIS: WELL, THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU HAVE A LOT TO TEACH US.

YOU HAVE DECADES OF EXPERIENCE ROOTED IN SCIENCE, ENVIRONMENTAL STEWARDSHIP, AND EMERGENCY SERVICES, SO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND, STARTING WITH THE BATS.

>>CHRIS: STARTING WITH THE BATS.

SO, I STARTED AS A YOUNG CHILD, YOU KNOW, BECOMING A TAXIDERMIST AT THE SMITHSONIAN, AND I STARTED WORKING FOR THE CURATOR OF MAMMALS.

I GOT TO GO DOWN TO SOUTH AND CENTRAL AMERICA AND SPEND TIME WITH THE CURATOR OF MAMMALS, AND SO THAT'S HOW I STARTED MY SCIENCE BACKGROUND.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU GOT A B.S.

ULTIMATELY TOO.

>>CHRIS: YES AFTER I WENT TO COLLEGE AND THEN AFTER THAT I WAS STARTING TO DO ARBORIST WORK AROUND THE MID-'80S, AND THEN I THINK IT WAS LATE-'80S YELLOWSTONE STARTED, THAT WAS MY FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH WILDFIRES.

THEN I DID A FULL CAREER IN THE FIRE DEPARTMENT HERE IN THE CITY OF SANTA FE.

>>LORENE: YOU ENDED UP TEACHING FOR THE FIRE DEPARTMENT, DIDN'T YOU AND THE CAPTAIN AND FEMA WORK.

>>CHRIS: FEMA USAR TEAMS, I WAS PART OF ALL THE USAR TEAMS.

I THINK THE FIRST EXPERIENCE THAT I HAD WAS BACK IN THE LATE '80S DURING THE SAN FRANCISCO EARTHQUAKE WHEN WE GOT ALL SHIPPED OUT.

I WAS A PARAMEDIC STARTING BACK THEN.

>>LORENE: YOU ACTUALLY WORKED THE SAN FRANCISCO EARTHQUAKE AS A PARAMEDIC.

>>CHRIS: AS A PARAMEDIC.

>>LORENE: OH MY LORD, TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THAT.

>>CHRIS: I DID A LOT OF TECHNICAL RESCUE STUFF BACK THEN, AND I WAS WORKING BEFORE THAT WITH THE NATIONAL OUTDOOR LEADERSHIP SCHOOL.

I WORKED WITH THEM FOR ABOUT SEVEN YEARS, SO I HAD A MOUNTAINEERING BACKGROUND.

>>LORENE: WOW, WELL, TO ME, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

YOU'VE DONE SO MANY THINGS AND HOW ONE SEGUES INTO THE OTHER, BECAUSE NOW IT'S SHIFTED INTO WILDFIRE MITIGATION WORK.

>>CHRIS: YES.

>>LORENE: SO THAT'S A LOT OF HATS TO CONDENSE INTO SOMETHING, BUT I CAN SEE HOW EACH LEG OF YOUR JOURNEY PREPARED YOU TO DO THIS REALLY WELL.

>>CHRIS: CORRECT, CORRECT.

MAINLY BECAUSE THE ARBORIST STUFF AND THE WILDLAND STUFF AND THE FIRE DEPARTMENT STRUCTURAL STUFF GIVES ME A UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE OF HOW TO FIGHT WILDFIRES.

I FEEL LIKE I'M PROBABLY THE ONLY ONE THAT I KNOW OF IN NEW MEXICO THAT ACTUALLY HAS THIS EXPERIENCE AND BACKGROUND INTO IT.

BECAUSE OF THAT, I LOOK AT IT FROM ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT VIEWS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, THEY SAY YOUR GIFT IS THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT FIRE FROM EVERY ANGLE AS A STRUCTURAL FIREFIGHTER, AS A WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER, AND AS AN ARBORIST, SO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE VICTIM AND THE CRIME.

>>CHRIS: CORRECT.

CORRECT.

BUT ALSO, YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT ARBORISTS DON'T USUALLY FIGHT FIRES AND THEY DON'T REALLY KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT FIRES.

WILDLAND GUYS DON'T DO STRUCTURAL, STRUCTURAL GUYS DON'T DO MITIGATION, SO A LOT OF TIMES THERE'S A LOT OF CONFUSION ON WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE AND HOW TO DO IT, SO THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I COME IN.

>>LORENE: YEAH, I'VE SEEN A LOT OF VIDEOS OF YOU WAY UP IN A TREE, YOU KNOW, A TREE THAT HAS TO COME DOWN, AND YOU TAKE IT DOWN IN PIECES, AND IT'S WITH A CRANE, BIG HUGE, WHAT, 20-FOOT SECTIONS ARE LOWERED TO THE GROUND.

I MEAN, IT LOOKS LIKE VERY PERILOUS WORK, AND YOU SURE BETTER KNOW WHICH WAY THAT TREE'S GOING TO FALL.

I'M SURE PEOPLE, I'M SURE YOU'VE WITNESSED PEOPLE MAKING TRAGIC MISCALCULATIONS.

>>CHRIS: YES, YES.

>>LORENE: AND ONCE IT GOES, IT GOES, THERE'S NO STOPPING IT.

ONE OF THE THINGS I WANTED TO KNOW FROM YOU, WHAT IS IT THAT THE NORMAL PERSON ON THE STREET ON FIRE, FOREST FIRE, WHAT IS IT THEY DON'T KNOW THAT DEVASTATES THEM THE FIRST TIME THEY ARE IN THE PRESENCE OF A WILDFIRE?

>>CHRIS: UNPREPAREDNESS.

YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A TIME WHERE I USED TO KNOCK ON PEOPLE'S DOORS AND IT WOULD TURN THEM INTO ZOMBIES.

YOU KNOW, YOU'D TELL THEM THEY HAVE TWO MINUTES TO GET OUT, GRAB ANYTHING LIVE, AND LEAVE, AND PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO AT THAT POINT.

IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION TO LEAVE JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT YOU OWN, AS AMERICANS WE'RE VERY ATTACHED TO OUR STUFF, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, IT BECOMES KIND OF COMPLEX.

AND ALSO, YOU'RE TRYING TO ENCOURAGE SOMEBODY TO LEAVE, AND A LOT OF TIMES THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT WILL STAND THERE ON THE ROOFLINE WITH A HOSE AND THINK THAT THEY'RE INVINCIBLE, BUT USUALLY, WHEN THEY FEEL THE HEAT OF THE FIRE, THAT CONVINCES THEM.

IT'S KIND OF LIKE PUTTING YOUR HAND ON THE STOVE, RIGHT, YOU'RE BRAVE UNTIL THE HAND ACTUALLY GOES ON THE STOVE.

>>LORENE: SO THE HEAT IS, OF COURSE, A WAKE-UP CALL, BUT I DON'T THINK PEOPLE...TALK TO ME ABOUT HOW FAST A FIRE MOVES, CAN YOU OUTRUN A FIRE?

THEN, OF COURSE, WITH THIS WHOLE ISSUE WITH THE EMBERS BLOWING IN THE WIND AND STARTING FIRES AT SURPRISINGLY UNPREDICTABILITY PLACES.

SO YOU HAVE SOME WONDERFUL FIRST STEPS, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

AND OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE TO GIVE A PLUG FOR A GO BAG.

PUT XEROX OF ALL YOUR DOCUMENTS, OF COURSE, YOU SHOULD HAVE THEM ON THE CLOUD TOO, BUT YOU KNOW, HAVE SOMETHING READY, YOU KNOW, AND IF YOU HAVE PETS OR BABIES OR SOMETHING, HAVE A MINIMUM SUPPLY TO KEEP EVERYBODY GOING.

GRAB THAT AND GET OUT OF THERE.

>>CHRIS: CORRECT, CORRECT AND HAVING A GO BAG AND BEING PREPARED FOR A WILDFIRE BECAUSE REALLY THE TRUTH IS WE LIVE IN THE LANDSCAPE OF WILDFIRE.

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BURN EVERY 10, POSSIBLY 15 YEARS, DEPENDING ON WHERE YOUR LOCATION IS, BUT EACH FIRE ACTUALLY PRODUCES A DIFFERENT TYPE OF FIRE, LIKE GRASS FIRES ARE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT IT WOULD BE UP IN THE FOREST AND HOW THEY ACTUALLY BURN.

SO, GRASS WOULD BURN IN A BIG STRAIGHT LINE AND THE BARRIERS ARE DIFFERENT, RIGHT, AND THEN YOU'LL GO, IF YOU GO UP TO THE CALF CANYON HERMIT'S PEAK, PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS AMAZED UP THERE THAT THE FIRE BURNS IN FINGERS, THAT'S USUALLY THE WAY THAT IT BURNS, DEPENDING ON WHAT TYPE OF TREES AND THE FUEL THAT'S THERE.

>>LORENE: SO, THERE CAN BE ISLANDS OF PERFECTLY NORMAL FOREST AND BURNS ALL AROUND IT.

>>CHRIS: CORRECT AND KNOWING HOW FIRE IS GOING TO TRAVEL IS ACTUALLY VERY PREDICTABLE.

>>LORENE: YES, BUT NOT TO THE LAYPERSON.

>>CHRIS: NOT TO THE LAYPERSON.

>>LORENE: FIRST, THEY'RE IN DENIAL AND SECOND OF ALL THEY KNOW THEY CAN'T OUTRUN IT.

YOU HAVE OUTLINED FOR ME BEFORE SOME STEPS, FIRST STEPS TO REDUCE RISK, AND I'VE AT LEAST DONE ONE OF THEM.

I USED TO KEEP MY WOOD PILE RIGHT PILED UP NEXT TO MY HOUSE, IT IS NOW 30 FEET AWAY AGAINST AN ADOBE WALL.

YOU KNOW, SO WHAT ARE OTHER STEPS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO, SO SIMPLE TO KNOW, TO BE PREPARED, TO KNOW WHAT TO DO.

>>CHRIS: YES, AND REALLY WE REALLY TRY TO FOCUS IN ON THAT.

THERE ARE THREE ZONES, AND THE FIRST ZONE IS WHAT WE CALL ZERO TO FIVE FEET, AND THAT ZERO TO FIVE FEET IS THE MOST IMPORTANT.

SO ANYTHING AROUND THE STRUCTURE.

THE WAY I TRY TO LET PEOPLE KNOW IS LIKE AN EMBER CAN FLY FOR MILES AND EVEN IF YOU CLEARED OUT EVERY PIECE OF VEGETATION OR ANY COMBUSTIBLE MATERIAL FOR THAT ENTIRE AREA, IF YOU HAD A SHINGLE ROOF, YOUR HOUSE IS PROBABLY STILL GOING TO BURN DOWN.

SO, TO HAVE THAT CONCEPT OF WHAT IT WILL TAKE TO BURN A HOUSE DOWN IS KIND OF A MISUNDERSTANDING AMONGST COMMON PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, THEY WORK MORE ON VEGETATION THAN THEY DO ON THEIR OWN STRUCTURE.

>>LORENE: SO A WOODEN DECK, A WRAPAROUND WOODEN DECK.

>>CHRIS: A WOODEN DECK IS A GREAT INVITATION FOR EMBERS, USUALLY, EMBERS ARE 90%.

NOT ALL JUST THAT, BUT WHAT WE TRY TO DO IS REALLY TRY TO FOCUS PEOPLE ON TO MAKING SURE THERE'S SCREENING UNDERNEATH THE DECK, REPLACE ANY BOARDS AND THERE'S SO MUCH GREAT DECKING MATERIAL OUT THERE RIGHT NOW, THERE'S A LOT OF COMPOSITE THAT IS WHAT THEY CALL CLASS A.

CLASS A MEANS THAT IT'S THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF FIRE RESILIENCE, AND BASICALLY YOU REALLY WANT THE DECKING AND THE ROOF TO BE CLASS A.

>>LORENE: ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS GOING TO GET TO LATER, BUT THIS IS A GOOD TIME TO MENTION IT, THE INSTITUTE OF BUSINESS AND HOME SAFETY, YOU SAY IT'S THE GOLD STANDARD, AND THEY'RE STARTING A PROGRAM WHERE THEY CAN CERTIFY HOMES FOR A DEGREE OF PREPAREDNESS OR ABOVE A CERTAIN STANDARD OF FIRE PREPAREDNESS.

>>CHRIS: CORRECT.

SO EVEN THOUGH MAYBE FORESTRY HAS BEEN MISMANAGED, IBHS, THE INSTITUTE.

OF BUSINESS AND HOME SAFETY, HAS REALLY DONE A FANTASTIC JOB WITH ALL THE LATEST, GREATEST SCIENCE, AND THEY'VE REALLY PUT IT TOGETHER.

SO THIS PAST YEAR, THEY'RE REALLY ROLLING OUT ALL NEW INFORMATION ON HOW TO REALLY PROTECT A HOME.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY DO IS ALSO THEY'RE WORKING HERE IN NEW MEXICO, WE'RE PRETTY CLOSE TO BEING ABLE TO CERTIFY HOMES ONCE THEY'VE ACTUALLY BEEN LOOKED AT AND ASSESSED, THEY CAN BE PUT INTO THAT PROGRAM.

I REALLY DO THINK THE INSURANCE PEOPLE REALLY NEED THIS KIND OF INFORMATION.

THAT'S KIND OF ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IN THE FUTURE, THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT.

>>LORENE: ONE OF THE THINGS, WELL, WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH CHRIS SCHAUM, WHO'S A WILDFIRE MITIGATION SPECIALIST AMONG OTHER THINGS, BUT THERE ARE SO MANY DANGEROUS MYTHS, I WAS SURPRISED, AND I ACTUALLY HAD BELIEVED SOME OF THEM.

CAN WE GO OVER SOME OF THOSE MYTHS?

ONE OF THE FIRST ONES IT WAS THAT FIREFIGHTERS CAN SAVE YOUR HOME, DON'T WORRY, THE FIREFIGHTERS ARE HERE.

WELL, TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT.

THE HYDRANTS AREN'T BUILT WITH A SUPPLY OF WATER.

>>CHRIS: CORRECT.

>>LORENE: A CREW CAN DO AT THE MOST WHAT, TWO HOUSES?

>>CHRIS: CORRECT.

IT DEPENDS ON THE SIZE OF YOUR DEPARTMENT, BUT THE TRUTH HERE IN THE CITY OF SANTA FE IS BASICALLY ONLY DESIGNED TO HANDLE TWO STRUCTURE FIRES AT A TIME BY NFPA STANDARDS AND THAT MEANS YOUR HOUSE PROBABLY WON'T BE PROTECTED.

EVEN IF YOU GOT EVERY FIREFIGHTER IN THE STATE WITH EVERY PIECE OF APPARATUS, IT WOULD SAVE A VERY, VERY SMALL PERCENTILE OF WHAT THEY COULD PROTECT.

ALSO THOSE HYDRANTS ARE ONLY DESIGNED FOR MAYBE ONE OR TWO STRUCTURE FIRES.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO COME TO ME AND SAY WE JUST NEED TO PUT MORE HYDRANTS IN, THAT WILL PROTECT US.

THE TRUTH IS THAT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE CORRECT UNDERSTANDING.

>>LORENE: FIRST OF ALL THERE'S NO WATER STORED SITTING AROUND, YOU KNOW, AND THE HYDRANTS AREN'T DESIGNED TO HAVE ENOUGH WATER FOR EVEN MAYBE ONE REALLY BAD FIRE.

THERE'S A DESIGN FLAW HERE THAT IS BASED ON THE REALITY OF HOW HARD IT IS TO FIGHT THESE.

AND IS IT TRUE THAT FIREFIGHTERS SOMETIMES HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE AND THEY CAN ONLY WORK ON A FIRE THAT THEY FEEL IS, THAT THEY CAN PROTECT, AND SOME FIRES ARE INDEFENSIBLE.

>>CHRIS: YES, YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY RIGHT.

YOU DRIVE INTO A NEIGHBORHOOD, YOU'RE LOOKING AROUND AS QUICKLY AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN TO FIGURE OUT WHICH HOME COULD BE POSSIBLY SAVED.

PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS SURPRISED ABOUT THAT BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT'S BEEN FOR QUITE A FEW YEARS NOW.

THAT'S WHY YOU'LL FIND MAYBE ONE OR TWO STRUCTURES PROTECTED, BUT THE REST ARE ALL GONE.

AND THAT'S JUST A PART OF, YOU KNOW, THE FIREFIGHTING BUSINESS.

STRUCTURAL FIREFIGHTERS ARE REALLY NOT DESIGNED FOR THESE GIANT MEGAFIRES TO KIND OF COME IN AND TAKE OUT ENTIRE TOWNS.

>>LORENE: LIKE PACIFIC PALISADES.

>>CHRIS: CORRECT.

THAT WAS A WHOLE, THOUSANDS, WELL HUNDREDS OF HOUSES GONE JUST LIKE THAT AND THEN OF COURSE THAT BRINGS UP ANOTHER THING ABOUT INSURANCE.

ONE OF THE MYTHS IS, I'VE GOT INSURANCE, I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY.

WELL, YOU DO HAVE TO WORRY, AND ALSO, WE CAN GO INTO THIS IN DEPTH ANOTHER TIME, BUT THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY HAS CHANGED.

IT'S NOT YOUR GRANDPA'S INSURANCE, IT NOW TAKES YEARS, THERE'S A LOT OF NEGOTIATION AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, I KNOW THAT IN CALIFORNIA RECENTLY, BECAUSE THEY HAD SO MANY FIRES, THE STATE PASSED A LAW THAT INSURANCE COMPANIES COULDN'T DROP POLICYHOLDERS AND COULDN'T FAIL TO RENEW THEM OR FAIL TO WRITE NEW ONES BECAUSE THEY WERE JUST SAYING, "WE'RE DONE."

AND THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED CALIFORNIA CARES, WHERE THEY JUST PUT OUT THIS AREA, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN BUY OUR STATE INSURANCE, IT'S GOING TO BE MORE EXPENSIVE AND HAVE LESS BENEFITS, BUT THAT'S THE ONLY INSURANCE YOU'RE GOING TO GET IF YOU LIVE IN THIS VERY HIGH-RISK AREA.

>>CHRIS: YEAH, SO THERE'S A LOT TO THAT, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, MITIGATION REALLY IS THE ONLY THING THAT WORKS FOR A FIRE, AND WE'LL PROBABLY GO OVER THIS, BUT WILDFIRES ARE THE ONLY PREVENTABLE, PREDICTABLE DISASTER OUT THERE.

>>LORENE: THAT IS SO IMPORTANT.

WOULD YOU SAY THAT AGAIN.

>>CHRIS: YEAH, IT'S THE ONLY PREVENTABLE, PREDICTABLE NATURAL DISASTER OUT THERE.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY PREVENT, BUT WE'VE PUT ALL OUR EGGS IN THE WRONG BASKET, AND WE'VE BEEN DOING THAT FOR OVER 100 YEARS, AND IT'S JUST MAKING THINGS WORSE.

IT'S LIKE GIVING AMMO TO YOUR OPPOSITION, RIGHT, IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT THING TO DEAL WITH.

I REALIZE THAT MITIGATION IS NOT SEXY LIKE SUPPRESSION, WE ALL WANT THE FIREFIGHTERS TO COME IN AND SAVE US, RIGHT.

>>LORENE: CARRIES GRANDMA DOWN FROM THE ATTIC.

>>CHRIS: BUT THAT'S NOT THE WAY THIS ACTUALLY WORKS.

IT'S KIND OF LIKE BRUSHING YOUR TEETH, IF YOU DON'T BRUSH YOUR TEETH, THEN EVENTUALLY, YOU KNOW YOU'RE JUST EXPECTING TO GET REPLACEMENTS, THAT'S NOT A HELPFUL THING, AND IT'S NOT A HEALTHY THING.

WE'VE KIND OF PUT OURSELVES IN A REALLY BAD SITUATION.

AND THIS IS, YOU KNOW, MITIGATION IS THE WAY TO DEAL WITH ALL THIS.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO INSURANCE COMPANIES, I THINK IT WAS AROUND 2016 WHEN THEY STARTED REACHING OUT TO ME.

I WOULD GET NOTICES OF PEOPLE THAT WERE LOSING THEIR INSURANCE HERE IN THE CITY, AND I WOULD HAVE TO KIND OF MEDIATE IN BETWEEN OF WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE AND TRY TO GET THEIR INSURANCE BACK.

I WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL IN GETTING THEIR INSURANCE BACK, BUT TO GET PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT MITIGATION TRULY IS, IT CAN BE A LITTLE OVERWHELMING.

>>LORENE: ANOTHER ONE OF THE MYTHS IS THAT REBUILDING, I'LL JUST REBUILD, AND THERE'S A LOT OF OBSTACLES TO THAT.

FIRST OF ALL, SETTLING WITH THE INSURANCE CAN TAKE YEARS OF NEGOTIATIONS AND EVERYTHING, AND THEN THERE'S THE PRICE OF EVERYTHING.

WELL, YOU TELL ME ABOUT WHY REBUILDING DOESN'T HAPPEN AS OFTEN AS PEOPLE WISH.

>>CHRIS: IT'S NOT A GREAT WAY TO DO IT FOR SURE.

YEAH, MOST PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT I THINK IT'S LIKE CLOSE TO PROBABLY 60% OF THE PEOPLE DON'T REALLY HAVE AWESOME FIRE INSURANCE AS MUCH AS THEY THINK THEY HAVE.

I'M NOT AN INSURANCE PERSON, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I REALIZE THAT YES, AFTER THEY STARTED READING THROUGH THEIR POLICIES, IT BECOMES DIFFICULT, YOU KNOW, AND THEY DON'T REALIZE THAT THEIR LANDSCAPE, FENCES, AND OUTBUILDINGS, AND THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT CAN GO ON AND ON THAT MAY NOT BE INCLUDED.

AND IF THEY THINK THAT THEIR REPLACEMENT COST IS OUTSTANDING, WAIT UNTIL AFTER A FIRE.

RIGHT NOW, ONE OF MY FRIENDS THAT I JUST TALKED TO IN CALIFORNIA JUST GOT QUOTED BY A CONTRACTOR FOR $1,500 A SQUARE FOOT.

THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT INSURANCE COMPANIES NORMALLY WOULD PAY FOR AND IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO BUILD AFTER A FIRE.

IT USUALLY MIGHT TAKE A COUPLE OF YEARS, AND YOU MIGHT BE IN ARBITRATION TO GET THAT MONEY, AND IT CAN BE LIFE-CHANGING AND REALLY ULTIMATELY CAN DESTROY AN ENTIRE TOWN.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T LOOK AT THAT, AND IT CAN DESTROY FAMILIES AND LIVES.

>>LORENE: PARADISE WAS ONE THAT WAS DESTROYED, RIGHT, CALIFORNIA.

CLIMATE CHANGE, SOME PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE IN THAT, BUT THERE MIGHT BE SOME EVIDENCE THAT THE TEMPERATURES ARE RISING.

HOW HAS THIS CHANGED THIS WHOLE EQUATION, HOW DO WE ACCOMMODATE THE CHANGES CLIMATE CHANGE HAS BROUGHT TO US IN TERMS OF FIRE MITIGATION?

>>CHRIS: YEAH, SO CLIMATE CHANGE HAS CHANGED THINGS.

IF ALL WE DO IS LOOK AT TEMPERATURE CHANGE WITHOUT ALL THE OTHER STUFF, IF WE'RE BELIEVING THAT IT ACTUALLY INCREASES TEMPERATURE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WORK ON A LOT IN MY MITIGATION THAT MATTERS PART, IS THAT IT'S CALLED VAPOR PRESSURE DEFICITS AND IT'S KIND OF LIKE IF THE ATMOSPHERE IS THE SAME, IT'S EQUAL, AND ONE IS HOTTER AND ONE IS COLDER, THE HOTTER ONE WILL HOLD MORE MOISTURE FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME.

SO THE DROUGHTS GET LONGER, IT WILL ACTUALLY SUCK THE MOISTURE OUT OF THE VEGETATION AND MAKE THINGS EVEN WORSE, THAT'S KIND OF A LOT OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING.

BUT WE ALSO INCLUDE THE WIND PATTERNS.

IF YOU TALK TO A METEOROLOGIST, YOU'LL FIND OUT THAT THEY USED TO BE ABLE TO PREDICT THE JET STREAM PRETTY WELL QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO AND MIGHT BE WEEKS AHEAD OF TIME, NOW THAT WIND PATTERN AND INTENSITY CAN CHANGE WITHIN HOURS.

>>LORENE: AND THE DIFFICULTY OF THAT IS THAT IN MANY CASES ONLY WEATHER CAN STOP BIG FIRES.

>>CHRIS: CORRECT.

MOST PEOPLE, EVEN THOUGH WE PUT OUT THE MAJORITY OF ALL FIRES OUT THERE QUITE EASILY WHEN THEY'RE SMALL, IT'S ONCE THEY GET TO A CERTAIN SIZE AND ONCE THEY GET UP INTO THE CANOPY AND THEY'RE DRIVEN, THE TRUTH IS NO 8,000 FIREFIGHTERS WITH SLURRY PLANES AND BULLDOZERS ARE PUTTING THESE FIRES OUT.

THEY CAN SLOW IT DOWN, THEY CAN KIND OF GIVE IT DIRECTION, BUT THE TRUTH IS WEATHER DOES THIS, IT'S NOT US FIXING THE PROBLEM AS MUCH AS WE BELIEVE THAT WE CAN.

BUT WE CAN SLOW IT DOWN ENOUGH IN ORDER TO MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.

>>LORENE: CAN YOU TALK TO ME ABOUT PRESCRIBED BURNS?

>>CHRIS: SURE.

PRESCRIBED BURNS USED TO BE KIND OF THE GOLD STANDARD FOR MANY YEARS.

ALTHOUGH, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE OVER A HUNDRED YEARS AGO, WE STOPPED ALLOWING FIRES AND WE TRIED TO PUT OUT AS MANY FIRES AS WE POSSIBLY COULD.

>>LORENE: A LITTLE HISTORY, WASN'T IT THAT 1880 WAS THE LAST TIME THERE WAS A HUGE FIRE.

DIDN'T IT GO FROM LIKE RATON TO COLORADO, THERE WAS ONE HUGE FIRE THAT I READ ABOUT THAT WAS INTERSTATE.

>>CHRIS: CORRECT.

WHEN WE CUT TREES AND WE LOOK AT TREE PATTERNS, THE RINGS, THEY CAN TELL YOU EXACTLY THE DATES ON, YOU KNOW, WHEN THOSE MEGA FIRES DID HAPPEN, BUT THE FIRES BACK THEN ARE DIFFERENT THAN THE FIRES THAT WE HAVE NOW.

SO WE HAVE TO HAVE THAT UNDERSTANDING.

WE'VE ALLOWED FOR A HUNDRED YEARS OF GROWTH, AND OUR FIRES EVEN BACK IN MY CAREER WERE SIGNIFICANTLY MUCH MORE MINIMAL.

YOU KNOW, WE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT YELLOWSTONE WAS NEVER GOING TO GROW BACK, AND IT WAS THE END OF THE WORLD BACK THEN.

THOSE ARE MINIMAL FIRES COMPARED TO WHAT WE GO THROUGH NOW.

AND THE FUEL INTENSITY, THE DRYNESS, AND THE WIND PATTERNS, ALL THAT ARE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH.

>>LORENE: SO IF YOU LOOK AT NEW MEXICO AND THE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE RURAL WILDLAND-URBAN INTERFACE, AND THEN THERE'S SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE ALL URBAN OR ALL RURAL, WHAT DO PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW?

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, AGAIN I WANT TO PUT OUT A JUST PLEASE GET A GO BAG READY, JUST, YOU KNOW, BE PREPARED IN ANY WAY YOU CAN, BUT WHAT ELSE DO PEOPLE NEED TO REALLY SAY, HEY, LOOK, THIS IS A POSSIBILITY.

PREPARATION AND MITIGATION, BUT FOR THE INDIVIDUAL PREPARATION, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO JUST HAVE WHAT YOU NEED THERE READY AND THEN ALSO BELIEVE IT WHEN THEY KNOCK AT THE DOOR AND SAY YOU HAVE TWO MINUTES, GET KITTY, FLUFFY, AND THE KIDS AND GO.

>>CHRIS: CORRECT.

SO YOU KNOW, IN ORDER TO HANDLE ALL THAT, I'VE DEVELOPED THREE DIFFERENT BUSINESSES, TWO ARE NONPROFITS, AND IN ORDER TO HANDLE HOW TO DEAL WITH WILDFIRE.

AND YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE A 360 OF WILDFIRE, WHAT I'M LOOKING AT IS PRE, DURING, AND POST OF HOW TO DEAL WITH WILDFIRE.

SO THAT PRE STUFF, THAT MITIGATION THAT MATTERS, SOMETHING WE'VE BEEN DOING FOR QUITE A FEW YEARS NOW, BUT THE SCIENCE HAS GOTTEN SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER.

SO WHAT I DO IS I USE SCIENCE-BASED, LIKE 3D MODELING.

BUT I USE DIFFERENT MODELING THAN WHAT GOVERNMENTS ARE ABLE TO USE.

I ALSO USE GRAPH THEORY, VAPOR PRESSURE DEFICITS, JUST A LOT OF DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, WIND PATTERNS AND THAT KIND OF STUFF.

I PUT IT ALL TOGETHER AND THEN I ALSO USE MY EXPERIENCE TO DRIVE EXACTLY WHERE TO DO THE MITIGATION.

SO WHAT THAT IS, IT'S LIKE EROSION ON A DIRT ROAD, AND I CAN SEE WHERE TO PUT THE WATER BARS AND I CORRELATE THAT WITH THE SPEED AND THE RESPONSE OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT BECAUSE AS A POST-FIREFIGHTER, A FULL CAREER FIREFIGHTER, I KNOW WHAT THE FIRE DEPARTMENTS ARE CAPABLE OF, EITHER AS A VOLUNTEER OR THE PAID FOLKS.

SO WHAT I DO IS I LIKE THAT SPECIALTY MITIGATION, IT'S VERY PRECISE, HOW TO DO MITIGATION.

I CAN SLOW AN ENTIRE FIRE BEFORE IT GETS GOING, I DON'T LOOK AT THE FUEL LOAD, I LOOK AT THE SPEED OF THESE FIRES.

>>LORENE: YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME, SO HOW CAN PEOPLE FIND OUT MORE, DO YOU HAVE ANY WEBSITES?

>>CHRIS: YEP, SO WE HAVE MITIGATION THAT MATTERS, READY, SET, GONE IS THE APP THAT WE'VE DESIGNED AND THAT WILL HELP SAVE LIVES AND PROPERTY WITH THAT.

AND THEN, POST-FIRE, THAT WE'VE WON AN AWARD FOR THRIVE ON FIRE, WE'RE PARTNERING UP WITH AMERICAN FOREST >>LORENE: GOOD.

WELL, NEXT TIME I'VE GOT TO HAVE YOU BACK BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH FOR PEOPLE TO KNOW, AND WE'LL START WITH ALL THE RESOURCES.

BUT WHATEVER YOU CAN GIVE US IN TERMS OF WEBSITES AND ORGANIZATIONS TO BE IN TOUCH WITH, WE'LL PUT THEM UNDERNEATH YOUR FACE ON THE SHOW.

I'M SORRY THAT WE'VE RUN OUT OF TIME BECAUSE IT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT SHOW.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS CHRIS SCHAUM, WHO IS A WILDFIRE MITIGATOR SPECIALIST.

VERY CHALLENGING, VERY INSPIRING WORK.

THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DO AND THANK YOU FOR COMING ON TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

>>CHRIS: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: IT WAS A REAL PLEASURE.

AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

♪ MUSIC