(Contemporary ethereal music) [KATE SULLIVAN] What a lunch we have planned for you today!

At a local diner in Arlington, Virginia, I am meeting hostage negotiator and world-class negotiation expert, Chris Voss.

[KATE] It's wonderful to meet you.

[CHRIS VOSS] Good to see you.

[KATE] Thank you, so much for doing this!

[CHRIS] It's my pleasure.

[KATE] Today, he's sharing his story and the secrets to his success.

From a cozy booth at the Silver Diner, Chris is taking me to his all-time favorite restaurant to eat what he loves and find out why he loves it.

[CHRIS] It's so good to see you!

[MAMA D] It's so good to see you!

[KATE] And then, we're hearing his journey to become a hostage negotiation expert.

[CHRIS] You give me some bad guys to go after-- and I'll get the job done.

[KATE] And the simple tools that can make you more effective the next time you're in the hot seat.

[CHRIS] Now, people feel safe when they say "no."

[KATE] They feel safe when they say "no?"

[CHRIS] You feel protected.

If you at least feel safe, now you're more willing to listen.

(Contemporary rock music) [KATE] What's better in life than a bottle of wine, great food, and an amazing conversation?

My name is Kate Sullivan, and I am the host of To Dine For.

I'm a journalist, a foodie, a traveler, with an appetite for the stories of people who are hungry for more.

Dreamers, visionaries, artists, those who hustle hard in the direction they love.

I travel with them to their favorite restaurant to hear how they did it.

This show is a toast to them and their American Dream.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... [Announcer] There are people in your life who count on you for what matters most.

American National agents are close to home and committed to our communities.

They'll help you find the right coverage for you, your family, even your farm and business.

You can learn more at americannational.com.

♪ ♪ Lavazza has worked towards perfecting the art of blending coffee for four generations, celebrating coffee in all its forms.

Lavazza Classico can be brewed however you take your coffee.

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Devoted to coffee since 1895.

[KATE] Hi everyone!

Today I'm in Arlington, Virginia on my way into the Silver Diner.

This is not your typical diner; it's incredibly innovative and health conscious.

The person who chose this as their favorite restaurant is an author, speaker, and former FBI negotiator.

I can't wait for you to meet Chris Voss.

[KATE] Chris!

[CHRIS] Kate!

[KATE] How are you?

[CHRIS] Fantastic!

Good to see you.

[KATE] It's wonderful to meet you.

Thank you so much for doing this.

[CHRIS] It's my pleasure.

[KATE] So this is the Silver Diner!

This is your spot.

[CHRIS] Yeah, we live in this place.

It's pretty awesome.

[KATE] We are walking into the Silver Diner in Arlington, Virginia, a place Chris Voss has dined a thousand times over, and before we even make it to our table, Chris is wrapped up in the arms of his favorite waitress: Mama D. [CHRIS] It's so good to see you.

[MAMA D] It's so good to see you!

[CHRIS] How are you?

[MAMA D] Great.

[CHRIS] You look fantastic.

[MAMA D] Love you, be right there with you.

[CHRIS] I love you too, alright.

[KATE] There's something nostalgic about a good diner, and Mama D is the epitome of what makes the Silver Diner feel like a home away from home.

She has 23 years under her apron and is clearly, a customer favorite.

[MAMA D] I always, you know, learn everybody's names, try to figure out what their wants and dislikes are.

Whenever someone comes in and you treat them like a friend, a family member away from home: this is my passion.

[KATE] There is heart at the Silver Diner.

You can feel it in the comfy booths, and see it on the faces of customers bellied up to the counter.

[YPE VON HENGST] It's a place for everyone, for young and old, and...you know, you can come here at all times, you have breakfast, you have lunch, you have dinner.

Most diners don't serve, you know, farm-to-table, fresh, vegan, local, gluten free, and we have all those and I think we're doing 'em all really, really, well.

[KATE] The menu is unique.

The "go to" diner favorites are all there, like pancakes and omelets, but the Silver Diner also has elevated, farm-to-table cuisine that is plant-based and heart healthy.

Everything is made from fresh, locally-sourced ingredients.

Think classic American diner with an elevated twist.

Dishes like barbecue chicken drumettes and succotash, Carolina catfish and summer watermelon and shrimp salad.

[YPE] There's no place like a diner, and I think we have taken it to, really to, the next level how we evolved it.

It's evolution, that's how we stay in business.

[KATE] Today, we are in for a treat.

Mama D is serving up Chris's favorite: the corn beef hash and eggs, done just like he likes it.

[MAMA D] Over easy?

[CHRIS] Eggs over easy.

[MAMA D] Crispy, crispy?

[CHRIS] Crispy, crispy.

[MAMA D] A.1.

on the side?

[CHRIS] Yes, please.

[MAMA D] And how about you?

[KATE] I will do the huevos rancheros, with bison.

[KATE] The bison huevos rancheros looked too good to pass up.

The dish has crispy, whole-wheat tortillas, topped with an organic bison chorizo hash.

There are runny Amish eggs, pepper, salsa, scallions, goat cheese and guacamole all piled on top.

[KATE] I'm wondering though, especially during your time in the FBI, you could have chosen any restaurant in three different states.

Why did you choose the Silver Diner as one of your favorite spots?

[CHRIS] Well, when I was in New York, I got used to great diners.

And great diners are on like every block, on every street corner in Manhattan, if not the entire five boroughs.

And I always loved the way I got treated: just places you felt good in.

So, DC's a different town than New York and, you know, when I got here, my son and I especially, you know, we both went looking for diners.

And we ate a bunch of different places and I think we walked in the door here one day and it felt great and it felt like a diner and we sat down and Mama D took care of us.

[KATE] So, when you think about, you know, why you picked that restaurant, is Mama D one of the reasons why... [CHRIS] Oh yeah, absolutely, 100 percent.

I mean, she's...she gets loyal clientele, people who come in here and just want to be taken care of by her because she remembers things, she's warm, she's lovely.

She's just a regular human being.

[KATE] How often did you come here?

[CHRIS] Oh, God...

I ate here easily five, six times a week before.

[KATE] What?

(Laughs) Are you serious?

It's like your home away from home.

[CHRIS] Yeah, they kept me alive.

I mean, uh, you know, I'd get breakfast, like when I was here I was living on a boat... [KATE] You were living on a boat?

[CHRIS] Yeah, I lived on a boat.

[KATE] When you were in the FBI?

[CHRIS] Yeah.

[KATE] And eating here?

[CHRIS] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[KATE] This is your life.

[CHRIS] Yeah.

[KATE] Kind of out of the ordinary (laughs) [CHRIS] (Laughs) Yeah...well, why be normal?

[KATE] Why be normal!

What was it about that life and that lifestyle that was attractive to you?

[CHRIS] Yeah, so I had a buddy that uh, was on a boat in New York.

I went down to see the boat, and he was on the Jersey side of the Hudson at about the Lincoln Tunnel, and I went down there and first of all, there was a multimillion-dollar view of Manhattan that he was paying $500 a month for.

[KATE] Wow, value!

[CHRIS] Yeah, that's what it cost him to keep the boat there.

And so, I had started looking for a boat when I was still in New York, and then I, got transferred, promoted down here, and I still clung to the idea.

I took my boat out more than most, but the coolest thing about it is the people in the community.

Like, you by definition are in an alternate lifestyle.

[KATE] Right!

And so, like attracts like.

[CHRIS] Yeah!

I mean, you've got nothing but interesting, adventurous people around.

[KATE] You grew up in Iowa.

[CHRIS] Yeah, not a lot of ocean in Iowa.

[KATE] (Chuckles) You grew up in Iowa, um, and I'm wondering what characteristics you had as a child that you feel like have served you well in your journey with the FBI and negotiation?

[CHRIS] Principally two things, and it was nurture, maybe three.

My parents taught me to work really hard and expected me to figure things out.

And then, they were great integrity, I mean...phenomenal morals.

[MAMA D] Some corned beef hash, crispy... [CHRIS] Alright!

[KATE] Oooh!

[CHRIS] Perfect.

[KATE] With a biscuit?

[MAMA D] Mmm-hmm, with a biscuit, and bison huevos rancheros.

[KATE] Wow, I have never had bison huevos rancheros!

[CHRIS] Now that chef here's crazy, eh?

(Cackles) [KATE] Isn't that cool?

Yeah, isn't that cool, yeah?

This is delicious!

Did you always know that you were going to be in the FBI?

Was that uh, a dream of yours?

[CHRIS] No.

It completely came out of left field.

[KATE] Really?

[CHRIS] When I was in my mid-teens, I saw a movie about two New York city cops, about 16, called "The Super Cops."

And these guys, real, true story, they were wildly innovative, the community loved 'em, and they were ridiculously creative.

The other thing I didn't realize at the time was... they didn't really pay attention to what the people they worked for told 'em to do.

You know, like... [KATE] They had their own minds.

[CHRIS] I realize now that I describe myself as a loose cannon that always hits the target.

(Kate laughs) Like, turn me loose, you know, let...give me some bad guys to go after, and I'll get the job done.

[KATE] Chris makes it sound simple when he says, "Get the job done."

What you don't realize is how hard that job really is.

Chris started his career with the New York SWAT team before finding his true calling: negotiation.

In 1983, he moved over to the FBI, where he became the lead crisis negotiator.

His specialty: international kidnapping negotiations.

Chris worked on more than 150 international hostage cases and was on the front lines investigating the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, the TWA Flight 800 Catastrophe, and the Chase Manhattan Bank robbery.

[KATE] Would you say, you're unpredictable?

[CHRIS] Uh, no, because unpredictable also includes bad surprises.

[KATE] Well, when I hear loose cannon, I think unpredictable.

[CHRIS] Right.

[KATE] So...help me understand what you mean by loose cannon.

[CHRIS] Well, working a kidnapping, the negotiations are taking place in Tampa, kidnapping's in the Philippines... is one of the few that we're...

I mean, really the conversations were taking place across the world.

And the U.S. kidnap policy is nuanced, a lot of, um, bureaucrats don't understand the nuances, and we're running into bureaucratic problems, and we're getting pushback and I know they're wrong.

So, what I've gotta do is I've gotta get on a plane, I gotta go to Tampa, and I just have to shove this through with the team.

As I'm getting on the phone, er, on the plane, I call my boss and say, "I'm on my way to Florida."

And he's like, "Okay."

Like, he, I didn't know until just a couple hours earlier that I was going to Florida.

[KATE] So, you do what needs to be done to get it done.

[CHRIS] Right.

And we went down and, you know, everybody stuck to, uh, the game plan, and we got the, we got the young man out, and he got back to Florida in time for his 17th birthday.

[KATE] Oh, wow!

And what is that feeling like for you, when you have a win, when you have a success, when people are healthy and alive?

[CHRIS] Yeah, there probably isn't a better feeling, you know, it's gratifying, you know.

The hard part is...when the hostage came out at that point and time, we would have to get out of the way.

The investigative squads would take over, everybody else would take over, we get out of the way.

And so...the quick detachment for us from the families, and also for them, was always hard.

[KATE] Did you ever have a negotiation that didn't work out, didn't work in your favor?

[CHRIS] Oh, of course, yeah.

It's impossible to be perfect.

Now, a hostage negotiator's success rate, both domestically and internationally, is about 93 percent.

[KATE] Success?

[CHRIS] Success, which is a very high percentage of success rate, it sounds high.

But the reality is once you start working kidnappings, you start approaching double digits, something's gonna go bad.

Now, most kidnapping negotiators for the FBI don't work that many, so they think everything I touch works out.

And you pray for the luck, but then you just seize every edge you can get.

[KATE] Well, you know, every job you learn by failing, right?

Everything you do.

But, my God, in your profession, when lives are on the line, to learn in that way must be difficult emotionally.

[CHRIS] First time through, it's pretty rough.

[KATE] Yeah!

[CHRIS] It...is, for the longest time I said, and it's still true, the worst moment of my professional career was when I got a call...it was the first hostage case that I worked with somebody got killed.

I got a call five in the morning here and a voice on the other end of the line said, "Martin Burnham's dead."

And it was hard on me.

But you know, you've gotta keep going, family...

I didn't experience the loss...the family did.

[KATE] Your life has taken a completely different turn, and you are still involved very much in negotiation, but not hostage negotiation, correct?

Now, you are involved in training people how to negotiate.

[CHRIS] Yeah, and how to have better lives.

Well, with, you know, livelihoods.

Their livelihoods are on the line.

[KATE] After 24 years at the FBI, Chris retired in 2007 and started his next chapter.

[CHRIS] Alright, so what do you do, if you're armed with this tactical empathy from hostage negotiation after you leave the FBI, and you're looking for gainful employment, how do you find a real job?

And you write a book.

[KATE] In his bestseller "Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It," Chris teaches others how to turn obstacles into opportunities.

But he didn't stop there, Chris started teaching his craft at some of the top business schools in the country: USC, Georgetown, and Harvard.

In 2019, he even got his own Masterclass on the art of negotiation.

[CHRIS] The upward inflection helps harsh things land gently.

[KATE] Chris founded The Black Swan Group, an organization that teaches individuals and businesses how to apply proven negotiation techniques to get ahead.

[KATE] Why did you call it The Black Swan Group?

[CHRIS] Nassim Nicholas Taleb wrote a book in 2007 called "The Black Swan," and it was just when I was leaving the FBI.

And the subtitle is "The Impact of the Highly Improbable."

What are the little things that change everything?

And I thought, wow, great negotiation is a series of little things that change everything.

And then, within the negotiation, there are always little tidbits of information, if you could just uncover them, would change everything... ...so, you know, "let's be black swans, and let's uncover black swans, and let's look for the little things that change everything."

[KATE] What's it like working with your son?

[CHRIS] Wonderful and horrible.

[KATE] (Laughs) Why do you say that?

[CHRIS] Well, when I realized he was so much like me, I sent, again, I sent Gary Noesner a text, probably about two years ago...

I said, "My son's exactly like me, I owe you an apology."

[KATE] (Laughs) What, when you say that, the awful, what is the negative part that you both share?

[CHRIS] Well, he's very independent.

So...he wants me to get out of his way, let him do his job.

You know, I'm going to hit the target, don't bother me, cause all the time I spent talking with you could've been time that I was getting something done.

And I was like, "Wow, wonder where he got that?"

[KATE] (Laughs) So, what's the first thing that, when it comes to negotiating, and I want to speak specifically to what you did, which is to work in police and FBI, because there's negotiating for sales and we can talk about that, but this is: I want to start with first what your career has been, which is negotiating when you're dealing with life on the line.

It's very different than trying to sell a home, right?

So... [CHRIS] You know but, you see, the parallels though... ...we're dealing with people whose hopes and dreams for their future are on the line, and in homes or in businesses, their livelihoods are on the line, so the recognition of the parallels and the decision-making, you know, there's also the phrase, "Your biggest problem is your biggest problem."

[KATE] So...there is a parallel between the two?

[CHRIS] Yeah.

[KATE] And what do you think is the very first rule of negotiation that you teach?

[CHRIS] Some people have described negotiation as the art of letting the other side have your way.

[KATE] Letting them have your way?

[CHRIS] So, you've gotta talk to 'em, you gotta find out what's on their mind, you find out what they're after.

We say in hostage negotiation: How are we going to get the bad guy out?

He's going to tell us."

So, how do you get people to talk to you... ...in a little more of an accelerated fashion?

[KATE] Okay, how do you do it then?

[CHRIS] You verbally show them that you understand... ...like, it sounds like a cliché, but without judgment.

For example, if they think they're doing a great thing, regardless of what you think of it, an appropriate thing to say is, "You feel you're doing a great thing."

And they do!

[KATE] So... show them what they just said, back to them.

[CHRIS] Or begin to intuit, and take some emotionally-educated guesses.

Like, you can take an emotionally-educated guess and come really close to the mark, and what happens is... ...if you're genuinely trying, they'll guide you in.

[KATE] Oh, interesting.

How do you handle people who are incredibly stressed?

Because I imagine that is something you had to get really good at, and how are people who are very stressed, how do they act differently?

[CHRIS] The hostage negotiator's voice is the late-night FM DJ... (Kate chuckles) ...and that actually triggers a neuroscience reaction in your head.

[KATE] Does it?

[CHRIS] It's an involuntary response, and I can trigger different neurochemicals in your head, and that one actually slows your thinking down... [KATE] And calms you down?

[CHRIS] Which has a tendency of calming you down.

We used to say that it just automatically calmed people down, now the effect that we're seeing is that...just everything slows down.

And if you slow it down enough, you know, like, we've had people just be unable to speak for a moment or two.

[KATE] Wow, does it get to the matching that you talk about, that, you know, just that as humans we tend to match... ...who we're across, because if you start to slow your voice does the other person start to slow?

[CHRIS] Because of the neuroscience reaction... [KATE] Okay.

[CHRIS] That's why calm is contagious.

[KATE] When people think about negotiation, they usually think about getting the other side to say yes to them.

[CHRIS] Right.

[KATE] But one of your rules is to actually get them to say, "No."

[CHRIS] Yeah, it's crazy, right?

[KATE] Can you explain that, and...it seems so counterintuitive.

[CHRIS] At its absolute best, a "yes" is only an aspiration.

"Yes" is nothing without how.

Now, people feel safe when they say "no."

[KATE] They feel safe when they say "no?"

[CHRIS] You feel protected.

If you at least feel safe, now you're more willing to listen.

So, in a business sense, instead of saying, "Do you agree?"

I might say to you, "Do you disagree?"

Now, if there are still problems, you are extremely likely to say to me, "I don't disagree, but here are the problems."

[KATE] One trick, uh, up your sleeve is to say something like, um, "Have you given up on this project?"

[CHRIS] Right.

[KATE] And then, their immediate thought, if you'll get an answer, because they'll either be like "Yes, I have," or if they haven't given up, and more likely, they're gonna say, "No, I'm just waiting on the finances," or "No, something has...delayed the outcome."

[MAMA D] Would you like a refill on the iced tea?

[CHRIS] I'm still gonna...

I'm gonna nibble a little bit more.

[KATE] Yeah, and I'll keep this too.

[MAMA D] You want to keep it a little bit?

[KATE] Yeah, I'll take the check when you're ready, okay?

[CHRIS] You gotta turn over the table, you gonna kick us out?

(Kate laughs) [MAMA D] No, I'm not gonna kick you out, you know, I'm gonna keep you.

Yeah, I've gotta keep people around.

[CHRIS] Alright, okay, thank you.

[KATE] Thank you.

Yeah, it's funny because when you think of a couple of FBI guys coming into a diner, you wouldn't necessarily... ...think that their waitress would make all the difference.

[CHRIS] Any place I've been into, I've usually ended up getting to know...whoever's taking care of me.

And she's fantastic.

[KATE] What's next for you?

You've done so much, is there anything that you haven't done that you'd like to do, or is there any scenario in uh...American culture that you'd like to bring your expertise to?

[CHRIS] We're getting back to our roots a little bit, is we're spending more and more time trying to impact in communities that are not getting along with the police, and find ways so that the police appear more approachable... and have a better understanding between the two sides.

But they forget about what it looks like on the other side, like a police officer will say, "Look, I showed up on the scene, and you know, there was a mother of two that was laying dead on the ground, and you know, I have to see that on a regular basis."

And they forget that the community member says, "I saw her get shot, and I've been sitting here looking at her for the last four hours.

So, you think it was hard on you."

[KATE] Right.

[CHRIS] "Imagine what it looked like to me."

When people are traumatized, they don't realize that the people around them have been more traumatized, and you get into a little bit of a downward spiral.

So, we're working to alleviate that, we're trying to get in quietly, we don't want to point fingers at anybody.

You know, empathy is...if your empathy improves, your decision-making improves.

And if, of the bad interactions between the police and the communities, if instead of looking at it as racism, which everybody wants to level that accusation, if you say, "Well, let's define it as bad decision-making."

And then, "what can we do to improve decision-making?"

And it's less of an accusation.

[KATE] Okay.

[CHRIS] Less of a damning accusation.

Like, nobody would disagree that it was bad decision-making.

[KATE] Right.

[CHRIS] So...let's...how do we train people to make better decisions?

[KATE] And it's productive.

It isn't, you know, "Where do we go from here?

We don't agree," it's "Let's find a way forward together."

[CHRIS] Right, right, right.

[KATE] I mean, you've had a career that is like out of the movies.

I mean, not only what you've done, um, the work that you've done, the career trajectory you've had, the living on a boat, I mean?

All of it is like... [CHRIS] It's a cry for help, right?

[KATE] Yeah, all of it!

(Laughs) Is it?

You tell me, is it a cry for help?

[CHRIS] A friend of mine once said that, I think, I think you living on a boat's a cry for help.

I had a ball, I mean, the FBI is a great federal law enforcement job because the breadth and depth of what it investigates is so wide that like whatever you're really interested in, if you're patient, you can find yourself there, and you can do wonderful things.

Like, when I left, I realized, I had the best seat in the house.

You know, it's the best seat in the house.

[KATE] Was it hard to leave?

[CHRIS] Uh, the timing was perfect.

And I can remember, every FBI agent when they're getting ready to get out, you're wondering what it's going to be like when you step out the door.

[KATE] And what was it like?

[CHRIS] Well, I was wondering, you know, "Am I gonna cry?

[KATE] Yeah.

[CHRIS] Am I gonna wanna walk, run back inside?

Oh, no I mean, Mr. Hagan I'm sorry, don't you still love me?"

And I can remember I resigned because I had to be in Boston at the time, I was going to Harvard, and um...when I stepped out the door, and I sat down in the cab, I felt liberated, and that's when I knew that it was... ...my time had come and gone, and it was time for the next phase of my life.

[KATE] Well, thank you for your service, and thank you for this amazing conversation, really, truly.

[CHRIS] Pleasure's mine.

[KATE] Yeah.

Wow, what a meal with Chris Voss!

If he looks like a character out of a movie, it's because he's lived a once in a million kind of life.

He's been in situations most could never handle, and learned tactics and techniques that only come from handling hard situations often, when a life is on the line, and seconds matter.

He teaches us that there are situations in life where one side can't understand the other without extreme patience, and extreme empathy.

And when we know something vital, that could help others survive and thrive, the real gift is to share it, and pass it on.

♪ ♪ [Kate] If you would like to know more about the guests, the restaurants, and the inspiring stories of success, please visit todinefortv.com or follow us on Facebook and Instagram at To Dine For TV.

We also have a podcast, To Dine For the podcast is available on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... ♪ ♪ [Announcer] There are people in your life who count on you for what matters most.

American National agents are close to home and committed to our communities.

They'll help you find the right coverage for you, your family, even your farm and business.

You can learn more at americannational.com.

Lavazza has worked towards perfecting the art of blending coffee for four generations, celebrating coffee in all its forms.

Lavazza Classico can be brewed however you take your coffee.

Lavazza.

Devoted to coffee since 1895.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪