Most parents try to set limits on screen time.

They fight the daily battle of putting phones away at dinner, turning off YouTube and getting kids off their games.

But every morning, millions of students walk into school, open that very same device, and are expected to focus.

For this generation, that device has become the defining classroom tool.

It can teach algebra.

Play movies.

Message friends.

Scroll endlessly, and now use AI.

The Chromebook became the new textbook.

Google classroom became the new backpack.

Worksheets became Google Docs.

For years, we thought that we knew the question how do we get more technology into classrooms?

Well, today we're asking a different one.

When does technology help students learn?

And when does it get in the way and why?

Because the same device students used to watch YouTube play games, message their friends, and navigate a digital world designed to compete for their attentio has also become their classroom.

I'm Sheri Jones today on Impact Michigan.

We explore how parents, teachers, researchers, and students are revisiting some of education's long held assumptions not whether technology belongs in the classroom, but how to use it in ways tha best support student learning.

But first, let's take a look at the question driving today's conversation.

When our son entered middle school, it became very clear that the Chromebook was being used in every class and was the first interaction he seemed to be having with school was opening up a screen.

A lot of what we do is on screens.

On a typical school day, most of the time is on a computer.

I don't think my parents know how much time I spend on a computer at school.

What was surprisin the most is definitely how much time I'm not actually doing work while I'm on the Chromebook.

A common theme was what's happening of the stories of students using YouTube at the end of class and being allowed to use it to view videos on YouTube, sort of as a well, if you get your work done, then you can just use your Chromebook.

If the classes are really boring or have nothing else to do, I'll like watch YouTube.

I think most people do like this is what I do.

I like get my work partly done and then I like switch over to a game for like five minutes, and then I just go back and finish it.

I contacted the school in September of last year and I just said, hey, I just want to raise this.

I'm hearing that movies are being watched, during class.

I just didn't think that streaming movies and just being able to pick one was was a great idea and the school agreed with me.

But the response was that, well, no, we don't want that happening.

Obviously we're in school.

So they agreed.

But, their position was it's really hard to control what the kids are doin on the devices because the words the school gave me was they're really good with technology.

I requested that my children not have access to YouTube and be opted out of usin YouTube during the school day.

And my request was denied because the school superintendent told me that YouTube was part of the curriculum.

And so then I said, well, show me how this i part of the curriculum, please.

I would like to see where it's documented.

And there was no answer.

I think that we pivoted a lot after Covid to these Chromebooks and th all the curriculum is on them.

So that has been the infrastructure that's been put in place.

But I just started asking questions like, what is the return on investment?

They said it helps with differentiated learning, and it helps kids to be able to take all the online tests that we have.

Overall there wasn't a lot of being able to point to tangible benefits of the screen.

Definitely having the Chromebooks has made it so you're more lik technologically savvy and stuff.

I think it makes it easier because it's not like you have to take notes.

You can just look at your computer and they normally post what they've taught on there.

It just helps overall.

And so to check like is is the is the juice worth the squeeze.

Is that the expression?

But is it worth it.

Because I think they've pivoted.

They had to, to onlin and Chromebook based learning.

And a lot of the curriculum now is on the Chromebook.

I think it's an important question to ask, and I think our kids are owed that question.

My son tried to do math homewor on the Chromebooks, and I just I personally don't think it's working when you're trying to do math with your finger on a screen.

I think with math, it' most people I think would agree.

You need to write out the formul and work it out on a worksheet.

So I don't see a lot of value in trying to do math on that.

I also don't see value in the English work.

I've seen where it's instantly spelling corrected.

I is giving the sentence finish prompt and oh, or shouldn't you say it in this way?

A lot of people will use it to cheat, but like I also feel like it has its pros, it has its place and I feel like people are shocked by that.

AI has changed school work with like a bunch of kids cheat all the time.

One of our teachers didn't let us take our work home, so it actually lowered our grades in that class because he was paranoid about AI.

I mean, this isn't breaking news that screens aren't good for kids.

It's been kind of proven in several recent studies.

At the end of the school day, I'm definitely tired of looking at the screen.

It gives me a headach when I really look at the screen for that one.

I'll probably change that.

We are on it as much as we are right now.

I have not heard a parent sa they want more Chromebook use.

We love our school district.

I'm just hoping to wor with the schools on this issue.

And I would like to welcome our panelist today to Impact Michigan first with Doctor Elizabeth Cloude.

Here at Michigan State University, an assistant professor, Department of Counseling, Education, Psychology and Special Education.

Nice to meet you.

And Doctor Aman Yadav, Lappan-Phillips, professor of computing education here at Michigan State University.

And Tim Akers, a retired English teacher.

Thank you all for being with us today.

You know that is a very powerful story.

Wouldn't you agree?

Just hearing from parents and the young people.

Is there a healthy balance with technology in the classroom?

What do you feel about that?

That's a complex problem, I think, and I don't think there's a there's a strong answer, at least from the evidence base yet, because integrating technology has so many facets that might make it work or might not make it work.

Right?

It depends on the teacher, depends on the culture, the context of the school, and also in the learner.

Does learner have the skills to regulate when they might experience a distraction?

Or does the teacher have the signal to intervene just in time when the student might be distracted to another moment?

It's a really complex problem.

Yeah.

And the question that I think about is, how is technology being used in a way that shifts classroom practices, right?

In the opening you give an example off worksheets are now Google Docs.

So if you're just reproducing worksheets in Google Docs, that's not a beneficial use of technology, right?

And the mom using the example of kids are just doing math homework on a computer now.

Right.

I think we have to rethin how schools bring technologies into the classroom, how they support teachers to use technologies in productive ways.

That shifts how kids are engaging and learning, rather than just reproducing existing practices that have been going on for the last six decades.

You know, over the 30 years that I was in the classroom, I've seen various iterations of this.

You know, when we started using spell checkers, you know, teachers were concerned kids wouldnt learn how to spell.

Or I remember my math colleagues upset when we brought in graphing calculators.

And I'm by no means a Luddite, but this is an exponential jump as far as what we're seeing with AI.

It should be a complement, not a replacement.

But teachers and, you know, had not been taught how to integrate it properly and effectively.

Nor have we been taught ho to teach the ethical use of it.

And I don't think the kids know the ethical use.

You know, this strikes home because those are all kids from my former district and parents from my former district.

The extent of what our district has done so far is, I don't know if you remember, after nine over 11, we had the terror alerts.

We have things hanging up in our classrooms for AI use green and we can use the students can use AI, yellow and for certain things.

But it's so ambiguous.

And that's the extent of the policy that we have.

And that's not effective.

And while it's like I say, it should be a supplement, but retention is being hur because if you write something by hand, you know, when I put notes on the board, the kids have a tendency to take a picture with their phone.

Well, they're not retaining that information.

You know, writing it down helps them synthesize it becomes part of thei understanding of the learning.

And that's one of the facets that I see missing the most.

And, Liz, I think you can speak to that with the psychology aspect of that, like that intentional learning as opposed to bringing in technology only just to supplement.

Maybe?

Right, right.

And the question is what evidence do we have, what kind of data can we rely on to sort of get information that that tactile, writing is actually effective.

It's producing a learning process that's conducive to the learning outcome we want to see.

And I think the question is with technology is we don't have that data.

You know, we might have click streams clicking on a video, time spent on that video.

But is that indicative of actual engagement and cognitive thought and a feeling that maybe would be conducive to.

Okay, I understand this information now.

And, you know, storing i memory, I can use it later on.

We actually just have kind of clickstream behavioral data.

And the question is, is that evidence of learning?

And is that conducive to the outcome that we want to see in the classroom?

And right now, I think the evidence is largely assessment either befor or after the learning activity or maybe behaviors during the learning activity, if it's with the technology, but largely it's missing.

And what data can we gather from from writing.

Right.

And how do we know if that's useful?

Yeah, I think it's not just I think data and evaluating the impact of any technology that school invest is really important, but also how our structures around technology use in schools are changing.

Right?

We think with technologies bought, we implemented technology in the classroom.

We asked teachers to implement the technology in the classroom without adequate support on how to meaningfully integrate that technology in the classroom.

And then we expect they'll do magic.

And when the technology doesn't work out, teachers are the blame, or teachers just didn't know how to use the technology.

Right.

So I think it's our administration is telling us we need to teach the kids how to use AI.

Well, someone needs to teach us as well.

I've, you know, I've spen a lot of personal time learning, but as far as what's been provided to me, to one hour, PDs isn't going to teach me how to properly apply this effectively, you know, teach the kids how to use it ethically.

You know, as I said, this is a powerful, powerful tool.

And it's not going to go anywhere.

Our investment is pretty heavy into it, but if we don't know how to use it, what good is that?

You know.

Looking at the Chromebook, and now we're 20 years past that.

Has the technology created bette Do we have the evidence on that?

We.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead, go ahead.

I just anecdotally know, you know, from being in the classroom, I would say no.

I mean, my students, they don' they're not as critical in their in their thought process.

They're not as analytical.

You know, it's a matter of getting it done, you know, it's not about, you know, Learning for the sake of learning.

It's learning for the sake of completion.

And this completes it very quickly for them.

It allows them to move on to other things that are more engaging, you know, and, it's rather than engagement it's become more entertainment.

And that's something we have to work on.

I think broadly, like a blanket statement that technology is going to improve learning or is improving learning or doesn't improve learning like I'm more interested in.

In what context does the technology work and how is a teacher using that technology for what their goals are for their students?

And so like if you look at our research base and maybe Liz Liz can correct me if I'm wrong, we don't have evidence that technology at scale impact learning, but there's also useful case of technology where does benefit students learning in the context of a particular classroom, a particular community a particular particular school.

Right.

That's how we have we have to think about that's how school districts have to think about what technology I'm going to invest in and how is it going to fit within our needs as a school and as a community.

So having parent voices and student voices is really important as well as teachers.

Yeah, absolutely.

And a lot of my work focuse on kind of play based learning, integrating games and to, create this, you know, sort of engaging opportunity to to engage in authentic learning.

Right?

You can learn, how to fail, failing as a part of play.

Right.

So kind of taking that as a process and only looking at the achievement and across the board, I mean, the effects are very small, if positive.

They're mixed.

Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

And it seems to be the effects are highly variable depending on the context in which the technology is integrated and also the learner who's using it.

For example, a lot of students or a lot of teachers rather like to use this program called Kahoot, and it's basically jeopardy!

The problem is, after every question, it shows the standings, how many points the kids got, and too many of the students, once they're no longer in the top 4 or 5, they just stop engaging and stop trying to answer the questions.

You know, I've tried it.

I wanted it because it is, you know, the bells and whistles.

And then, the problem is that, I and I try to explain to them, if there's one you get wrong, write it down so that you can study that thing.

That's not what it's being used for.

It's being used as a trivia game, a bar trivia for, for that matter.

And, and then once they fall to the top five, they just sto and then they're on their phone or on their computer doing something else.

I think that's a problem.

Systematically too.

Like, what do we reward in terms of outcomes?

Right.

It' the standardized tests, right?

It's like, am I in the top five?

Rather than helping kids, young people think about, you know, engaging in that failure and productive struggle is really important for learning, right?

If you're just using chat bot to give you an answer, right.

You are just, you know, circumventing your own learning process and that's going to hurt you in the long run.

Like as you're saying, like you're not noticing those math critical thinking in in the classroom anymore.

Which is critical in life.

And as we move on, let's let's help parents right now.

And as we heard in our story earlier, you know, kids come home and we're like, turn that off, put that away.

It's time for dinner.

It's time to go to sleep.

You've been on that device.

And then in the morning they wake up and the first thing they do is they open their Chromebook or their laptop or something.

And so, because of that and the nature of what, that is a social engagement tool, and we're sending children there.

But there's also a mixed message that goes with that.

Let's tal a little bit about that.

Right.

Sorry go ahead.

In the wa that we've been thinking about in our research is like, how do we help teachers and kids understand how these technologies work?

I know you had the social medi Impact Michigan panel as well.

And, you know, kids need to understand how these technologies are designed.

Algorithms work to keep them engaged and hooked on these platforms right at home, but also at school.

And so if they understand how these technologies work, they're they can be more critical of their own use of these technologies.

As well.

I think one of the things that troubles me is, you know, we got more sensibly, we've gotten rid of phones.

We'll see how well that works with the new legislation.

But everything that the phones to the laptops to now in front of them and our school districts, attempt to address this was to get up to put a program on teachers computers called securely.

Now the I can open that u and I can see what the kids are doing on each of their screens.

Is that really a productive use of my time?

You know, I two master' degrees, 30 years of experience.

Am I just overseeing what they're doing while they're on the laptop?

And I don't know that that's the right way to go about it.

I, I have a friend who's a professor at the University of Wisconsin, and she has done away with all technology in the classroom.

Her, her, exams are all handwritten.

She's gone back to Blue Books for those of us who remember that and, you know, in fact, I'm reading a lot of school, this lot of school districts nationwide are starting to take away the computers and try to focus on handwritten assignments, or at least just going to a computer cart rather than a 1 to 1, so that when we need to do it, then they have access to it as opposed to the constant access.

And I think that is a good wa to mitigate some of the damage anyway, because it is a useful tool.

I mean, Liz, psychologically what how can parents understand this, this shift in their child's learning and making sure, as we heard, that they want the teache to be engaging in the student?

With the student?

Right.

I think this really places a lot of emphasis on the misalignmen between the integration of tech with the pedagogical goals of the of the classroom, the schoo and really education at large.

I think that calls for us to really draw from the community.

Parent know things about the children that teachers don't.

Peers know things about their peers in the classroom that maybe a teacher wouldn't see.

And I think that requires us to listen to communities, as Amand was saying.

And what does that look like?

What that look like co-developing tools that we would use in a classroom, maybe that we could you know, develop in such a way that is aligned with the outcomes we want to see.

Maybe in such a wa where it focuses on that process of learning instead of just the outcome.

Right?

And we want to hear the parents voice, what do they want to see when their kids get home?

How do they want to use that technology?

Mayb if they see their kids using it and they know that the technolog is working toward this outcome, maybe it will look differentl than them just using it kind of as sporadically as they want.

And I think that raises other questions about what is education supposed to bring society.

That also raises questions about contextual differences, what in different communities need because that technolog likely looks so much different.

You know, lower income, right?

We might have less access to resources or higher income communities might have access to different resources.

We want to make that equal.

Right.

And I think that's a that's a bigger question as well.

It's a hard problem.

Thats something Covid exposed.

You know, when kids would have to drive to a parking lot somewhere to access somebody's Wi-Fi to be able to use the laptop, you know, because that was the only connection they ha with the teachers at the time.

So, the disparity in income is huge.

Resources.

You know, I was lucky enough to teach in a district that had resources, but we're not utilizing them effectively in in their best manner.

Right.

And it's concerning because these technologies are really being pushed by government and, for profit companies who have tons of resources that the average school does not.

So I think that really addressed question, what what are we actually doing with this tech.

The gates foundation has started to draw back.

Good.

On pushing technology into the classroom, because it's not having it's not been the panace that they thought it would be, you know.

Right.

I mean I think about like the chat bots right there being kids are using it AI.

Right?

ChatGPT or Claude and they're not.

They're easy to get an answer on.

Right.

And then kids don't have t engage in productive struggle.

They don't experience failure.

Right.

And so there's not a feedback loop because the answer is right there.

Common Sense Media just, did a report and they found that, Google's AI overview mode fail on all of their safety aspects.

Right?

And they gave it 180, problems, homework assignments, and it solved 180 out of 180 just a Google AI or review mode.

So kids sees that like I have the answer again, going back to like what the system rewards.

If grades are what matter, there's an answer.

I can go ahead and submit it.

I don't need to do that thinking for myself.

Right.

And perfection becomes the standard.

Yeah.

You know always having the right answer.

Yeah.

And I think to your point, like, how should we be talking to parents about this?

Like we have to.

Parents, as parents.

You know, I have two young kids.

Like talk to the about when is using technology beneficial for your learning and when it has hurtful for for your learning.

Right.

And I think that's something we can do as parents and not just put the onus o schools and teachers to do that.

Right?

Because we have kid a lot more than a teacher does.

So that's a conversation we should be having at home as well.

Right?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And don't you feel like there is part of learning that has to be the brain, the hand connection to the writing to and th critical thinking, those things.

But AI is here.

It's not going away.

So how do we best use that?

What have we learned fro the Chromebook era to apply now to AI in how do we support parents and teachers?

It's a big question.

Let's talk specifically about AI.

It's not going away.

To your very good point, right?

I think just to my earlie point, like we cannot just use AI to reproduce same practices that we have done for the last 100 years.

Right.

We have to rethink, how it can supplement what happens in the classroom.

Like Tim was saying that, and not just replace kids thinking, I mean, one of the use cases I hear is teachers are using it to create lesson plans or activities for their students right in the class, because it's easier to do it in less than a minute.

You have an activity right?

But it also creates a lot of slop, you know, which is the word for activities that are not grounded in accurate history or information.

And teachers just take sometimes take those and implement those in the classroom.

Right.

That could do more harm than good.

So I think we have to educate teachers on where the harms of these technologies come up, because sometimes this makes things up that don't exist.

Question.

For instance, one of the workaround and there's the kids are always a step ahead of the teachers when it comes to this.

Some teacher have, in fact, at Alcorn State there was a professor who did this in in their prompts for a written response.

They'll put something in one point font in white, you know, include the words such and such.

Right.

Like I had a colleague put, you know in an essay on Of Mice and Men include the words watermelon and Frankenstein.

Okay.

And you wouldn' believe the proportion of kids who turned in an essay because they don't even read what it produces in many cases.

And this was a professor at a university, 32 out of the 35 kids he put in use the word Madagascar.

And it had nothing to d with the assignment 32 out of 35 or the professor at Brown, who, there unfortunately been shooting in this past December, so he was going to allow them to do their midterm and final as take homes.

His.

Well, the midterm typically had an average of 65% to 80%.

He let them do his a take home.

The average grade was a 96%.

So became a bit suspicious.

So he made them come into class for the final 19 kids dropped nine, didn't even take the final, and the average grade was a 45% because so many of them didn't know the material.

That's right.

We saw that in our show.

Oh did you.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

Thank you all so much for being here.

Your expertise in this wonderful, very valuable conversation.

We appreciate you.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Well, the conversation around technology in the classroom as you heard, is changing now.

For years the focus was getting more technology into schools.

But today the conversation is becomin less about the technology itself and more about how to use it in ways that best support student learning.

I'm Sherry Jones, and thank you for joining us on Impact Michigan.