♪ opening music ♪ ♪ <Gavin> Welcome to This Week in South Carolina.

I'm Gavin Jackson.

This week, the University of South Carolina announced a $1.5 million dollar gift to enhance the school's Center for Civil Rights History and Research.

The Center's Director Dr. Bobby Donaldson joins us to discuss its importance and recent debate on legislation involving critical race theory happening at the Statehouse, but first, more from this week.

Money was the order of business this week at the Statehouse.

The Senate approved more than $2 billion dollars in federal funding, including a plan for $525 million dollars that was part of a federal settlement over plutonium storage at the Savannah River site.

That money will fund roads, water and sewer infrastructure, economic development projects and more in the SRS region.

The Senate also approved plans for part of the $2.5 billion dollars in American Rescue Plan Act money, the state received without any Republican congressional support, last March.

Senate Republicans and Democrats had no problem approving $435 million dollars for already planned transportation infrastructure projects, as well as hundreds of millions of dollars in grants for rural water infrastructure upgrades and $400 million dollars for broadband.

The bill was sent to the House where lawmakers this week passed a very similar spending plan.

Their differences will soon be hashed out.

State economists, on Tuesday, said tax revenue has grown substantially, giving lawmakers billions in additional money to budget with.

More than a dozen prominent House Republicans joined the governor to push for income tax reductions that would cost $600 million dollars.

That's the same amount recurring funds grew by for a total of $1.5 billion dollars in growth, along with 2.5 billion in non-recurring dollars <Mcmaster> The normal trend is going to be increasing.

We are confident.

We are on the way up.

The federal money did help, but the conservative policies that we had in this state are what have allowed this to occur, and we have businesses from all over the world that are contacting us that want to come to South Carolina.

We have businesses in this state that want to grow.

We have a lot of needs in education and other things, but this is the way to answer those needs.

This will - tax cut unleashes industry and business in the economy to thrive.

<Gavin> The Senate unveiled an even bigger tax cut plan on Thursday, though economists urge caution as the economy will soon settle down from its stimulus sugar highs.

Another big storyline out of the Statehouse this week, was a five hour long House Education Committee hearing on five bills dealing with critical race theory, a controversial yet ill-defined topic that isn't taught in K through 12 schools, in which State Superintendent of Education Molly Spearman spoke about.

<Spearman> There's significant debate as to what is and what is not appropriate.

I believe we in this committee have a monumental task and responsibility before us to ensure that students, parents, and educators know what can be taught in our classrooms and what cannot.

Parents should have a clear picture of what their children are learning, and teachers should not be forced to second guess their instruction or worse, not teach something important for fear of retaliation.

<Gavin> No action was taken on the bills, but Committee Chairwoman Rita Allison says it was the first of several hearings on the controversial matters the committee will hold.

Now to discuss the importance of Black History Month and a major investment in Civil Rights education in this state is Dr. Bobby Donaldson.

He's a USC professor of history, and director of the school's Center for Civil Rights History and Research.

Professor Donaldson, welcome back.

>> Thanks.

So glad to be with you again.

>> So, Dr. Donaldson, let's just start off about this big news this week.

We have a lot to talk about, but I want to talk about this huge investment that your Center for Civil Rights History and Research just got this week $1.5 million dollars.

Tell us about the Center for people who don't know about it and what this money will do for you in the future.

>> So, the Center for Civil Rights History and Research at the University of South Carolina, was established in the fall of 2015 upon the receipt of the papers of Congressman James Clyburn.

As a part of that gift, Congressman Clyburn very much wanted to see an entity on the University's campus that would take various collections like his own, and use them for teaching purposes, use them to advance research to use them for public engagement, and over the many years, we've been working to do just that.

In 2019, there was a large exhibit of many of these materials on display in the Ernest F. Hollings Library.

Those items were on display for six months, and at the conclusion of the exhibit, those items went back into the very boxes, and then went back in storage, and there was a real push among many to find a way to keep that material, active and alive, and ultimately, what we decided to do was to develop a smaller exhibit that would travel throughout South Carolina and ultimately around the country that will tell the story, the largely unknown story of Civil Rights in South Carolina.

So presently, the exhibit called Justice for All is on display in Sumter, and it will soon go to Orangeburg, to Georgetown and other places in the state.

To help support that exhibit, we were soliciting contributions and gifts from individuals and from corporations and we had a contact at Williams companies and her name is Kelly Adams.

Kelly has roots in South Carolina, and she was very engaged in what we were discussing and seemed very supportive, and so she went back to her company, a company I did not know, to ask, would they be willing to support our work.

And so, on Tuesday, they said clearly, they were willing to support the work.

They made a three year commitment of $1.5 million dollars to support the teaching, research, and public engagement of the Center.

So, Gavin it's a monumental gift for us, and for the work we do.

It's an affirmation of the work of many over several years.

So, we're really excited about where this takes us, next, down the road.

<Gavin> .Professor you have so many stories to tell and that's why we love having you on the show.

Give us one that this exhibit will help teach folks about.

You know, there are so much Civil Rights history in our state.

You know, there are so many books written about it.

I've been reading several of them by some of your colleagues just about...the foundation of education lawsuits in this state, protests, boycotts, things like that.

Give us an example for folks maybe who have just moved to South Carolina or don't know our history that well, that they should know about?

<Dr.

Donaldson> Well, I'll cite just two examples from the year 1954.

Many people know that one of the most influential Supreme Court rulings in the 20th century is the Supreme Court ruling called Brown versus the Board of Education, a Supreme Court ruling that chiseled away at legal segregation in this country, and some may not know that, although it's Brown versus the Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas.

It's a series of cases packaged together, and one of those cases is called Briggs versus Elliot, which was a school case out of Clarendon County, South Carolina in a little community called Summerton, and today, Summerton is just a small dot on a map along I-95, and many people may not know, in that small dot town, there was a powerful case called Briggs versus Elliot, that helps transform this nation and transform the country.

That's just one example from 54, and Gavin, the Brown v. Board ruling took place on May 17th of 1954, and little over a month later, there was an incident in downtown Columbia, of a 20 year old woman who was originally from Eastover, South Carolina.

Her name was Sarah Mae Fleming.

Sarah Mae Fleming was on her way to work one day, and she sits in a seat on a bus on Main Street in Columbia, a seat which was legally reserved for White people.

and we don't know what motivated this young woman to sit in that seat that day, but when she was told by the bus driver to get up and move to the back, she did not obey.

She did not believe that she had any reason to leave that seat.

When she tries to get off the bus after being harassed, she is hit.

She is punched in the stomach.

She is wounded, and she ultimately seeks legal counsel, and is championed by a Civil Rights giant name of Modjeska Simpkins, and she filed a lawsuit against the owners of the bus company, and at that time, the owners of the bus company was a company called SCE&G.

So, there's a very famous legal case called Flemming versus SCE&G that sets the stage for the outlawing of segregation in public transportation.

Now, nearly every textbook in our country will tell you about the story of Rosa Parks.

It is a story that happened 17 months after Sarah Mae Flemming, but very few know really the story of Sarah Mae Flemming and part of our hope is to amplify the important contributions of people like those in Summerton and people like Sarah Mae Flemming.

<Gavin> Very interesting backstory there, of course, and so many details and important anecdotes that folks really do need to learn about when we talk about history in our state.

Professor, the announcement took place for that huge investment for the.Center for Civil Rights History and Research on the Statehouse grounds outside of the African American monument.

Can you talk to us about the significance of holding that announcement there on that location?

>> Well, I believe that we recognize that this was a major investment for this company.

It was a major milestone for the University and so we were looking for an appropriate backdrop, and we could easily have done it on the campus, but we were mindful that the Center, is although housed here, at the University, it is to be of a service to the state of South Carolina, and to all citizens, all schools, all the teachers, all students, and so to be on public grounds, to be in that space, surrounded by these iconic emblems of.African American history, was very appropriate, I think, and in addition to that, when you think about the Statehouse, it is a place of tremendous history.

It is a place of conflicting history.

You have on those grounds, people who are pioneers in advancing the cause of civil rights and justice, and you also have on those grounds, monuments, and other public pieces, and tributes to those who were maintaining, defending adamantly the status quo.

.So, for me, this was a real moment of poetic justice to be at the African American monument, talking about citizens who dare to believe in a different future for the state of South Carolina, unlike others, who have been commemorated on those grounds.

<Gavin> .We've previously talked about monuments, the role of Confederate monuments in the state.

So, I'm not going to get into it again.

People can go to our YouTube page and see that discussion from last year.

But Professor Donaldson, I want to ask you about the rise and the role of misinformation in our society right now, especially when it comes to history.

Can you talk about what you've seen maybe, either it's among your students or people you've interacted with, some just misinformation out there that you'd love to clear up when it comes to history in South Carolina, specifically Civil Rights history?

<Dr.

Donaldson> Well, I think part of what we know is the reason why we want to build up an archives and the reason why we're doing that.the reason why we're encouraging people to make sure they save and preserve valuable letters and photographs, and even moving television footage, is because it helps to fill in gaps.

It helps to correct misconceptions, and so when someone says there was not much of a Civil Rights movement in South Carolina, we beg to differ.

Let's look at the photographs of downtown demonstrations in Columbia, and Rock Hill and Charleston, in Florence, in Denmark, or let's look at letters written by kids from jail, in Rock Hill in 1961.

There was a serious and critical movement in the state of South Carolina, and it is not one widely known around the country.

Now, there are a number of examples of Martin Luther King Jr. being in South Carolina as early as the 1940s, when he was a very, very young man.

One of the.I think one of the amazing discoveries of people is to.realize that someone like Malcolm X, made an appearance in Columbia, South Carolina, in April of 1963.

How do we know that?

We have photographs of Malcolm X, at the Columbia airport, there are photographs of Malcolm X speaking at a small church near the C.A.

Johnson High School in Columbia.

There's a ticket that we have as part of our collection that says that Malcolm X was scheduled to speak at the Township Auditorium.

So, Gavin, there is a lot about the history of the Civil Rights movement in this country that can be seen through the lens, and through the window of South Carolina, if we make a determined effort to preserve that history, and to make it available and accessible to the public.

<Gavin> .which is what you're doing there at your center.

Professor Donaldson, I want to ask you about just, ...when people talk about race, you know, we have these debates.

We have these discussions, especially in light of horrible situations.

Look at George Floyd.

Look at the Mother Emanuel massacre.

The list goes on, sadly, when it comes to race based incidents, shootings, massacres, and then we talk about having discussions.

We talk about trying to pass bills, but more importantly, a lot of times people say we need to have this discussion, and some would say maybe we're doing it right now, here and there, especially in the wake of George Floyd's death.

That summer was an explosive time for these situations, but then things wane.

People start talking about different things.

Politics really creep in, and then everyone started saying, why are we talking about race so much, all of a sudden...and it's like, we haven't really had the discussion yet.

So, what do you say to people when they say, why is race always at the front and center of so many things...when we've previously talked about saying we need to have this discussion, and then you have people saying, well, why do we have to keep talking about it?

How do you how do you answer that?

How do you mesh with that?

>> As you think about the long arc of democracy, the struggle for democracy in this country, the long arc about constitutional rights, for me as a historian is very difficult to separate any of that, from a discussion of race and race relations in this country.

This is.what I teach every day about the Civil Rights Movement and to talk about Civil Rights, it simply cannot be the heroic story of the demonstrator, or the heroic story of Rosa Parks.

It has to be a story of a much more complicated nature.

It has to be the story of the opposition of these persons' phase.

It has to be the profound opposition of state leadership, during that time.

I think part of it is, it's an uncomfortable history, but it's one that we should not run away from, and I think part of what we're seeing now is an effort to silence, and an effort to erase some aspects of our history, and I think that's a very, very dangerous proposition, and part of the work we do at the Center is to base our interpretation and our presentation of history on the sources that are before us, and to use those sources to tell as comprehensive a history as we can, and so I'm troubled by some of the politics we see today.

And it's ironic, Gavin, Tuesday, we were celebrating this major investment by a corporate entity in support of the work we're doing, and on Wednesday, the next day, there were over five hours of testimony about history, education, and critical race theory in South Carolina.

<Gavin> Yep, and Professor, you kind of walked right in my second question there, because I was at that hearing that House Education Committee hearing at the Statehouse, where we saw State Superintendent of Education, Molly Spearman talking about these bills, these five bills dealing with CRT, which, again, is a very loosely defined thing.

Even lawmakers who are proposing these bills really couldn't come up with a working definition of what Critical Race Theory is.

A lot of people don't know what it is, but they know that they're afraid of it.

Do you have a working definition?

Or do you tell people what it is when they ask you because of your stance with that and the history department?

>> No.

I can tell you what Civil Rights history is, that's what I'm trained to do.

Critical Race Theory is a loaded term.

But I do believe that there is no serious deliberations about what it has meant, intellectually, and what it has meant scholarly, particularly among legal scholars who have helped shaped that field.

It's almost as though it's now becoming a buzzword to capture all things related to diversity and equity in education.

And as I said before, I believe that is a very dangerous proposition, and a road to travel.

Now, Gavin, I've taught at the University of South Carolina for 22 years.

I've thoroughly enjoyed my time here teaching diverse students from diverse backgrounds, and what I see now is an effort to, to kind of put a break on that type of teaching.

Not long ago, there was a professor in Florida, who was a Civil Rights historian, who someone sort of accused of being a critical race theory, and this man's public speech was cancelled as a result.

And again, I think when we move in that direction, of trying to censor scholarship, that is a very dangerous direction to go in.

<Gavin> .The Superintendent at that hearing said, this is a dangerous path we could be going down.

We have to be very, very careful.

Teaching history comprehensively and accurately is key.

Partisanship and passing along personal biases are not.

So, I think that's another issue too, that we've kind of seen come to the forefront, especially with parents teaching from home, children being remote during this pandemic, you know.a current events lesson in, you know, high school or middle school, all of a sudden becomes a worrisome fodder for critical race theory, when it's just discussing the events of the day, essentially.

<Dr.

Donaldson> It's true and..

I come with this as a Ph.D., an academic scholar in Civil Rights in African American history, but I also come into this as a citizen and as a father of an 11 year old and a 15 year old, who are in our public schools, and I want to make sure that.the histories they're taught, is a history that reflects the history that I've done work on for two decades.

So, what you do not want is this perception that, you know, democracy is an uncomplicated process, because our state is a rich state in so many respects, and you want to be sure to the students of this state, come away with a very strong knowledge of South Carolina history but also the role the state has played in the country.

<Gavin> .When we talk about critical race theory, too, I mean, you can say it examines the way policies and laws perpetuate systemic racism.

I don't - for an example, I don't remember ever learning about redlining as a child or even as a college student, but until I moved to Florence, South Carolina, where I was covering city council meetings, and they were talking about doing a neighborhood revitalization plan, a comprehensive plan to revitalize neighborhoods that have been affected by problems in the past, like redlining.

These neighborhoods where Black owners of homes can't get interest rates or even loans to fix up their houses to improve neighborhoods, because of the way that those neighborhoods have been historically treated.

So, would that be construed as critical race theory, just talking about redlining, a practice that was happening, and may be in some ways still happens today?

<Dr.

Donaldson> Again, I think, because this is a loosely defined term by those who are kind of indicting the field, you want to be careful, I'm glad you picked the example of Florence and redlining.

So redlining was indeed a policy, you want to look at the implications of those policies on urban planning and urban development.

And a perfect example of this - those who are in downtown Columbia who know the area around the Statehouse, well, that was an area impacted by redlining.

Today, we know of the Greek village of the University of South Carolina.

We know about the Colonial Life Arena.

You may know about the Darla Moore School of Business, but unless you have a critical lens, you would assume those spaces were built on open lots, when in fact, they were not.

They were.built in the heart of a Black neighborhood called Ward One, Ward One, that was deeply impacted by urban renewal, and redlining, Ward One, which has been a subject of many of my classes, Ward One, which we work with those residents to develop exhibits, and websites, so that their history can be preserved, even though nearly every building of their neighborhood is now gone.

<Gavin> .that's something, actually when we talk about infrastructure, and especially now with these major infrastructure investments being talked about, being debated in the Statehouse, being passed into law in Congress and here, as well.

...I talked to SCDOT Secretary, Christy Hall about the ramifications of such planning in the past, and she says, now, they are focused to make sure that they understand, you know, community concerns, also what they can do to help mitigate a lot of this, because that has always been a concern, and those are stories that haven't been told, because a lot of those stories can't be told, because people don't have the power in those neighborhoods in those areas, and again, that's history that isn't being taught.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, particularly when you look at highway construction, historically and even now.

There's.a great deal of debate and controversy, even in places like Charleston, about how highway development is impacting historic Black neighborhoods.I think, again, for some people, these are just highways, seas of asphalt going through communities, not recognizing that it has a deep and adverse impact on the history and longevity of historic neighborhoods and communities.

>>Professor Donaldson, we have about four minutes left, and I want to ask you just about where this goes, and I know you've kind of mentioned it moments ago, but where do you see all of this going?

Have we.been through a time in our history where we have faced such moments like this where there's a really big push to get rid of the history?

I mean, obviously, there have been some big moments, but has it ever been really this concerted?

I mean, obviously, in the past it has happened, but how do you see this playing out to an extent now in the modern times?

>> I wish I could be prophetic to tell you where we're going.

It is quite interesting, though, that in the last three or four years, history has become such a hot button issue in ways it never has before, whether it's from monuments to curriculum.

So, I don't know which way it shall go, but what I do know is that those of us who believe in teaching a comprehensive and in-depth history of this nation, and of South Carolina should be vigilant.

Gavin, many people may not even know that in this state, as much as we're debating about critical race theory, there are actually laws on our books now, that call for the teaching of African American History in South Carolina.

It's an over 30 years old measure that has been rarely discussed or rarely enforced.

So, there are already laws here that I think we...should examine and put into practice.

<Gavin> Yeah, and lawmakers even passed a law last year citing a greater need for civics being taught and institutions of higher education like your own and including documents when it comes to African American Heritage and the like.

So, it's interesting that we're talking about these bills right now working through the Statehouse that could essentially almost invalidate what's already been passed into law.

So, there's a lot going back and forth right now, but do you see any big movement on this actually happening and coming to fruition in this state, maybe based on our history?

>> You know the General Assembly better than I do, and I think we'll see where all the noise goes, and we'll see whether or not there's a resolution that actually creates a stronger educational platform for our young people.

You know, so again, as a father and as a citizen, I hope that as much energy as we're now focusing on critical race theory, we can now channel on improving our public schools in South Carolina.

<Gavin> Professor, with 30 seconds left, what should people be doing?

I know you're talking about focusing on public schools, but if I'm a viewer, if I'm at home, what should I be doing?

Should I be researching more into our history?

How can people do this?

What are some great resources?

<Dr.

Donaldson> If you want to know more about the Civil Rights history in South Carolina, I encourage you to visit the Civil Rights Center's website, I encourage you to visit my good friend, Cecil Williams, in Orangeburg, I encourage you to get ready for the new museum in Charleston.

There are, even though we're having this debate, Gavin, there are some entities and organizations around this state that are doing great work to make sure that we have a strong and diverse history of South Carolina.

<Gavin> Wonderful, and a lot to look forward to right there.

That's Professor Bobby Donaldson.

He's a USC history professor, and he's director of the school's Center for Civil Rights History and Research.

Thank you, Professor Donaldson, <Dr.

Donaldson> Glad to be with you.

>> To keep you updated throughout the week, check out the South Carolina Lede.

It's a podcast that I host twice a week that you can find on South Carolina public radio.org or wherever you find podcasts.

For South Carolina ETV.

I'm Gavin Jackson.

Be well, South Carolina.

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