>>Celebrate Black Voices and the spaces they build.

Today, we explore the impact of Black spaces and the healing resistance, identity, and joy they nurture.

I am Adrienne Cole Johnson, and this is "Racism: Challenging Perceptions."

I'm joined by Brian Bullock and Dr.

Erin Burke Brown.

Brian is an Emmy-nominated and Murrow award-winning storyteller and filmmaker.

He brings little-known stories to life through programs like VPM's "Hidden History with Brian Bullock," the Smithsonian Channel documentary "Escape to the Great Dismal Swamp," and the inspirational story of college tennis great Roland McDaniel.

Brian is a graduate of Virginia Union University and is helping to preserve the legacy of his alma mater while creating films that shed light on community and social justice issues.

Dr.

Burke Brown has a passion for education and community advocacy.

She is the inaugural Director of Professional Development at VCU'S Graduate School, where she supports over 5,000 students across more than 140 programs and has advanced service and social justice for over a decade.

Dr.

Burke Brown currently serves on the Pace Center Board and is a member of the Midlothian chapter of Jack and Jill of America.

She values bringing mentorship, storytelling, and a dedicated focus on student success into every space she enters.

Welcome, Dr.

Burke Brown and Brian Bullock.

>>Thank you.

>>Thank you all for joining us today, and really excited to talk about Black spaces, how we show up in them and what it looks like.

But I wanna start with a really basic question.

How do you all define Black space currently, or even what it's meant for you in the past?

>>That's a great question.

Thinking about Black spaces really brings me back to my childhood and the foundation that my parents and my family set for me.

And now I work in really diverse spaces.

A lot of times, I may be the only Black woman in a room.

And when I think back to growing up, I was really immersed in Black culture and Black spaces.

And it's not just the physical space, it's cultural, emotional, social.

And if I was to describe my childhood, it felt like a warm hug.

>>Mmmm >>And that's because I had my family, I had my church.

I went to a predominantly Black school up until eighth grade.

And so in all those spaces, I saw Blackness, but I saw it not as a monolith, I saw Black people who embodied really different personalities and styles.

And so for me, a quiet, bookish, you know, musical loving Black girl, I wasn't weird because I saw other Black girls like me.

And I was able to take that into other spaces as I got older and look for that.

If it wasn't there, I was gonna find it or create it, even if it wasn't formal.

So I really appreciate, you know, opportunities where we create our own spaces, but if it's not there, how do we create that safety and that sanctuary for our community?

>>Brian, what about you?

>>Yeah, I love the reference to the warm hug.

My road was a little different.

I grew up in predominantly white spaces.

>>Okay.

Until-- even when I went to college, I went to a predominantly white institution.

Other than like church, which I consider one of those spaces, those warm hug spaces, started off at a predominantly white institution, PWI, and then went on to Virginia Union.

And it was such a difference.

And not to say that this other institution wasn't a wonderful institution, but it provided a space for me that was just so different.

And it's so just embracing, culturally, physically, everything, my whole, I've said it public and I've said it in writing that Virginia Union University saved my life, that space.

And it was because of that space.

It's just such a different road.

And when I got there, and I understood the importance of space and places.

And so it very, very important to me.

And it's helped really kind of put me in the right direction.

>>Yeah.

Wow.

I appreciate you sharing, and I'm thinking about the difference in you all's experiences.

I want to go back to that.

When you say you knew it felt different, how did that show up for you if you can go back to that time?

Like how did it feel kind of transitioning, being at VUU?

Just share with us a few of the experiences that you had and what the difference made for you.

>>So even just the university that I came from was humongous.

We know that Virginia Union is small, but big.

You know, it's big in a different way.

And just the moment I set foot on campus, it just felt different, it just felt warm.

Now one specific interaction I had was with my advisor and how I was handled academically, the time that was spent.

The, "Mr.

Bullock, I wanna talk to you after class."

>>Okay.

(laughs) And it was like, at these larger universities, that doesn't always happen.

You know, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen at all, but there, it's intentional, it was intentional.

So it was just- >>A level of care.

>>The level of care, because they understood me.

They saw me before I saw me.

>>Yes, so now I wanna go back to you quickly, Erin, thinking about having claimed these spaces earlier in life, but then exposed to more diversity.

How did that feel for you, and how did you navigate that?

>>Wow, you talking about Union saving your life made me think about my college experience where I went to a PWI and, you know, I had to find that space.

And I remember what's funny about PWIs, they kind of trick us into going, because they always have these beautiful Black weekends.

>>Yes.

Amazing.

As someone who went to a PWI - >>Right?

>>I had a great experience.

>>Is this what this is?

And then you go and you're like, where did all the Black people go that were here?

And I remember that first week of classes, and I would be one, two, maybe it's three of us.

And I just felt so lonely.

And then I had a peer advisor, and she told me about the gospel choir - Thursday night, and I remember coming out of my dorm and just seeing this trickle of Black students, and we were all going to this building.

And when I opened that door and saw it was a huge choir, it had over a hundred people, it felt like home.

And that choir, that gospel choir is what saved my life.

I don't think I would've graduated without that experience, those people.

And that was the safe space for me when I went to that PWI.

>>I love that.

I love that.

And it's interesting how no matter where you go, we likely have found that safe space to be.

Thank you all for sharing that.

Brian, I wanna jump over to you because you are an Emmy-nominated filmmaker producer doing amazing things.

But your films often explore buried or overlooked Black histories.

And so what responsibility do you think storytellers have in not just capturing Black spaces, but just like actively preserving them from a historic perspective?

>>I think that it, for me, even just having this conversation, you know, thinking about why I even do those stories, and I think this has kind of given me more... >>Okay.

>>just kind of why do I do these stories?

>>Yes.

>>And... obviously we want to preserve history.

It's just important to continue to tell these stories so that we don't forget.

It sounds cliche, so we don't forget, we repeat the past and that kind of thing.

>>But it's true.

>>That's right.

>>I mean, we're living it right now.

>>That's right.

That's right.

And at some point, what we're living now will be historic for someone else, right?

And so preserving those experiences and perspectives as well.

Dr.

Burke Brown, so we both are members of the mighty Midlothian chapter of Jack and Jill of America.

But I would love for you to share, for those who don't know what Jack and Jill is or what it's about, if you can share just a bit about Jack and Jill.

>>Absolutely.

So Jack and Jill was founded in 1938 by 20 Black moms in Philly, who were just looking to bring their kids together in community with other Black children, learn about leadership, civic responsibility.

And here we are almost a hundred years later and 50,000 members strong all over the United States.

And we still have that goal.

We are Black families who want our children to be in community with other Black children.

And a lot of times, the members of Jack and Jill may live in communities where there aren't a lot of other Black families, maybe their children attend schools that aren't as diverse.

And we're really looking for opportunities for them to have fun with children in their age group, but also to learn about their culture, the history, you know, these historical markers.

And so, as a member of the Midlothian chapter, I know for the past three years, my children, I have a 14-year-old and a 7-year-old, have just grown immensely from being able to see themselves.

And then, you know, the benefit of being with the moms, like the moms are amazing.

I mean, you are one of them.

And so what I have found is my community, these Black women, doctors, lawyers, educators, business owners, I am so in awe and impressed by them and for my children to have these other aunties and uncles.

>>Yes.

>>It's just been a joy to have that be a second family for me.

>>Absolutely, and you said so much that makes me smile.

And as I'm sitting in this conversation, again, finding space, right?

>>Yeah.

Creating home, you know.

As things expand, neighborhoods, you move, still trying to find your people, you know find your tribe when it comes to those spaces.

I would say from a personal perspective, Erin, what have you noticed with your youth and them now having this space?

What aha's have you seen with just kind of creating their community in a really intentional way?

>>I love that question.

I think it's been different because I have a 14-year-old son and a daughter.

>>Okay.

Mmm hmm.

>>And I had always been invited to join Jack and Jill from one of my best friends from college.

And she's like, "You've gotta join."

And early on I was like, I don't know, because actually I lived in a Black community.

My son had friends, and then we moved, as you said.

And you know, I saw his friend group, and it was nothing wrong with them, but I'm like, "Wait, where are the Black kids?

Like, you don't have Black friends?"

And then it really hit me with my daughter, because it's something about Black girls.

I think Black boys, sometimes if you're athletic, you're just cool by default.

My son had no trouble finding friends.

And my daughter, she struggled.

It wasn't little girls with poofs and beads in the neighborhood.

And I just wanted her to see herself.

And I wanted her to feel beautiful and valued.

And that was really kind of the impetus for me seeking out Jack and Jill.

And I told my friend, it had been years, and I was like, "It's time."

And so it came right on time.

And I see my daughter excelling in all spaces.

And I think it's because she can go back to that community.

>>And thinking about how we often, whether it's in conversation or telling people our why, it's often as if you have to defend why you are in support of creating this space.

And I see you all head nodding, but I'm curious if you all have experiences that you'd like to share around that when it comes to us maybe having to defend the importance of Black spaces.

>>Well, I think for me, you know, doing the content that I do, I do oftentimes get comments about certain segments of history.

And for me, I have just, I've embraced my story, my history and my story.

I don't have to, I don't have to tell other people's story because that's what's, you know, correct.

I tell the stories because they are within me.

So that gives me, that really arms me to be able to say, "Hey, this is a story and it's an American story."

>>Yes.

>>I love that.

Yeah.

>>No, I feel very much the same.

I think, you know, there are times when you are put in that defensive mode, and I think really understanding why we need our own space is because our history has, in this country, it's been about exclusion, right?

And we've often been left out, you know, systematically, legally, you know, policies.

And so knowing that the spaces we create, it's not just for fun, it's for survival.

And that history is important for us to know.

And having our children and our families currently, even though we can sit at more tables, we are still not at a place where everyone is equal, you know?

And everyone has the same access to opportunities.

And for me, especially as a parent to Black children, I want them to understand that they have these opportunities, but also know the history of how they got these opportunities.

And, you know, how hard they have to work.

We all know, you know, working twice as hard to get half as much, that's not over.

And so I want our children to have that sense of community and pride in their history.

>>Mmm hmm.

>>We're gonna take the kids to get ice cream, but we're going to a Black owned ice cream shop.

You're gonna meet the owner and learn about entrepreneurship and you know, you're gonna have fun with your friends.

And so I think about, you know, the things that we are explicitly taught, and then there are these things that are caught just from you living that experience.

>>I love that, you said taught and caught.

I'm remembering that one.

I haven't heard that.

That's a good one.

Because there are some things that are caught just through experience and just being in the room.

Erin, I wanna stay on you for a little bit in thinking about -- now putting on your work, working in educational institutions, and really, you're often likely, just as you mentioned, the gospel choir helping to build spaces and being a safe person for other students at the university.

What does it look like to be intentional about trying to design those spaces or holding spaces for young people?

>>Yeah, I love it.

I think when you are a woman of color, a Black woman, especially if you work at PWIs or institutions that maybe don't have as much diversity, when students who have your identity see you, they just, they wanna be with you.

And so in education, we talk about that as the invisible labor.

It's that I have this job to do, but also I'm informally mentoring these five Black students who have never had a Black instructor who are excited to see me and want me to pour into them.

And it's something that I love, but it's not recognized as part of what I do and what I'm doing well.

But I know that if there hadn't been people who did that for me when I was in that place, I wouldn't be where I was.

And it was a Black woman who told me, "I think you could do this.

Like I think you could get a PhD."

Like I think, you know, and so me being able to have those moments with students informally and formally for them to know I'm a safe space has been really important part of my career.

>>I love that.

>>If I think about who do I really want to impact it is the younger generation.

And I have an opportunity now, I work at Virginia Union now, and I would be remiss if I didn't say that while at Virginia Union, I was able to pledge the Zeta chapter of Omega Psi Phi Fraternity Incorporated.

>>All right.

That's right.

>>So I get to work with those guys on campus and the students there.

That's who I want to make, like that kind of generation, much like Dr.

Erin, I get to be that person when I got to Virginia Union that's >>put me in the direction.

Now I get to be that person.

>>I love that.

>>And so in terms of my professional, my work stuff, my hidden history, it's that generation that I really want to, you know, this is why the story's important.

>>Yes.

>>This is why the story is important.

And I connect it to today, this is why it's so important.

>>Yes.

And you bring in another faction, the fraternities and the sororities, right?

That, again, hold space, whether undergrad, grad chapter, and you share, you're a member of Omega Psi Phi Incorporated.

Talk to us about that experience and what that's meant for you with identity as well.

>>Yeah, so listening to Dr.

Erin talk about Jack and Jill, it's like, it's starting in a place at Virginia Union, which was an amazing experience.

But now that place gets to move on.

Like I moved to another place as a graduate member, you know, I always have that place.

I think that's what I'm saying, I will always have that place.

It goes with me, wherever I am, it's with me.

And just the organization itself, you know, Omega Psi Phi Fraternity Incorporated is international.

So anywhere I go, I have a place.

And so I would say that's one of those important, one of the most important and pivotal experiences in my life was, and I'm still very active now too.

>>I love that.

And that you're continuing to pour into others, it sounds, as they are journeying.

I love what you're describing when you say you always have that space, these spaces that we talk about are not often physical, geographical.

>>That's right.

That's right.

>>It is a space of just being and movement and being seen, right?

So I love you saying that because when I think about Jack and Jill, when I think about, you know, the gospel choir was a certain moment in time, but those are relationships that are formed when I think about the history that you're unpacking, they're things that you can really carry with you no matter where you are and, you know, direction that you're going.

Is there a certain person or place that comes to mind?

And I'd really like to tap back into childhood that you think really created space for you?

If you had to call out someone, person or space.

Both of you all are nodding.

Whoever wants to jump in, a memory.

>>So I'm gonna go back to elementary school and I had a teacher named Miss Word, and I know that's not her name now, she's married.

>>Okay.

But she had gone to an HBCU, it was her first year teaching.

And we did a Black history question every day.

And we were like, "But it's not Black History Month."

You know.

And she was like, "No, but you're important all year."

And we had these little marble notebooks, and at the end of the year, it was full of Black history facts of all these wonderful things that Black people had done.

And for me, at 10 years old, she was planting the seed that I could do and be anything.

And I was lucky enough to be able to find her on Facebook years ago and tell her that.

But I can go back to that and say that's where I knew I could do the impossible.

And it's because I still have that book of all of these amazing Black people that you did not hear about on the media.

You know, when I grew up, Richmond was the murder capital of the United States.

I didn't see positive images of myself.

I saw "Boyz N the Hood."

And so for me to see all of these images that were positive, it was amazing for me.

And I went on and I majored in African-American studies, and I know it goes back to that.

>>Wow.

Thank you for sharing that.

>>You know, I gotta go home to the church.

I grew up in elementary school in West Saint Paul, Minnesota.

Me and my brother and my sister, it was a very large school district.

We were the only Black kids in the school district.

So the only time we got to see people that looked like us was at church, we would drive all the way over to Minneapolis to church.

And so that's where I really had my kind of first cultural experience in my own community.

Pastor, Reverend Dr.

Earl F. Miller was our pastor.

And I was very close friends with his sons.

And, you know, it really opened me up, and I looked forward to going to church because that was my place.

>>Oh, I love that.

I'm asking questions that make me think about my answers, right?

And I'm thinking about elementary school when my mom was a teacher after, and I was raised in a Baptist church.

But one of the, I guess babysitter, yeah, my babysitter was Muslim, it was a Muslim family, the Grooms.

But I remember this moment, Mrs.

Grooms, and we would color and do things and she would always do this nice, comfortable challenge to me.

And I remember one time I was drawing a picture and I had just did the line and drew the sky, and she was like, "Well what's all that extra space on the page?"

She said, "You can color."

Like it's your picture, it's your story, right?

"You can fill it in."

And I was like, I'm making more sky, and I'm putting birds, you know, and it was simple, but I remember that moment.

That's how open, like, it's really limitless, you know?

And it's interesting all of the stories that we shared, it's really small, intentional, people being aware and being present with you in that moment that leads to decisions that we're making in professional and innovative spaces and things of the sort.

So thank you all so much for sharing, and thank you all for being here with us today.

Absolutely value your expertise, your experiences, your lived experiences, and thank you for being with us for "Racism: Challenging Perceptions."

>>Thank you.

>>Thank you.

(bright music) >>Now in part two of our Rooted in Love discussion, we continue to dive deeply into what it means to sustain love through life's transitions, heal from generation to generation, and navigate the journeys of partnership in love and community.

I am Adrienne Cole Johnson,, and we are joined with Daryl and April Fraser.

Daryl is a licensed clinical social worker and certified Reiki practitioner specializing in Black male mental health and couples therapy.

April is a registered nurse and marriage strategist focused on wellness and emotional empowerment.

The Frasers bring over 20 years of clinical and coaching experience as the co-founders of Fraser and Associates and the creators of the Healing Field in Virginia.

Through their platform, Marriage Perfectly Imperfect, they offer real talk, practical tools, and spiritual insight for couples seeking deeper connections.

Welcome, Daryl and April.

Always good to sit with you all.

>>Yes.

We're excited to be here.

>>Yes, I know we had you last year, Daryl, and we said we wanna have Daryl and his other, you probably would say better half, >>That's right.

>>to come on stage just to talk about Black love.

And so my first question is gonna be really simple, but how do you all define Black love?

Doesn't have to just be romantically.

Even thinking about community, your tribe, how do you define Black love?

>>I would say we define Black love.

And if we're gonna say Black love, why not just love, right?

>>That's right.

>>So if we're talking about Black love, Black people in our country come from many different cultures.

We're not just one thing.

And what I love about Black love is incorporating that experience, which for us is unique to our community, to our culture, to our value systems, and honoring those things in our love space.

So not ignoring the fact that yes, I love him, but also embracing who he is culturally for me in our relationship.

And so that's what I think about when I think about Black love, because love in and of itself is a different conversation than Black love.

Yeah.

>>That was good.

(group laughs) >>I love that affirmation.

>>Yeah, I agree.

I think Black love for me requires me to love not just my partner, but myself.

Love, that's the hard part, like loving yourself, like what does that really mean?

I think Black love is iterative, meaning what I think is love today, I learn so much more tomorrow.

I've had to learn also to love my culture, to understand my culture, and also thinking about how do I love not just my wife, but my community?

Because her family becomes my family, and then my family becomes her family, and I get a better understanding of her, where she comes from, and she gets a better understanding of where I come from too.

Particularly because her family's from Mississippi, my family's from Saint Vincent.

>>Oh.

Okay.

>>Yes.

Very different, right?

>>Different, but the same.

Different, but the same.

>>And that's where the cultural pieces come in because yeah, different places, but there are cultural components that are very similar.

>>Yes, indeed.

>>I wanna add to that, him bringing up our different backgrounds, like me having a southern background in Mississippi and him having a Caribbean background and his upbringing.

Daryl was born in New York, but his background and his family origins are from the Caribbeans.

And embracing that part of ourselves and bringing that into the relationship, sharing that with our children.

It only adds to the Black experience of going back and getting it.

Going back and getting your identity, right, Sankofa, going back and getting all of the things that we unfortunately don't have a good connection to for a lot of us.

But it was one of the things that I loved about Daryl because his family is Caribbean and they have such a unique and interesting family origin.

He has family in Europe and in Saint Vincent and listening to SOCA music that I had never listened to before I met him.

And the fact that my kids now have that as well as what I bring from the south of cotton fields, rural upbringing in a town that has, what, less than, I don't know, one gas station, a railroad track, and that's it.

That's my family's upbringing.

And so letting them go back and remember who they are only helps them love better and have better experiences.

So I love the uniqueness of our cultural backgrounds.

>>Yeah, and I love that you shared that earlier when you talked about your definition and how culture is a part of that, and culture, just being how you live, how you show up, right?

And I think there's a layer of, when we're talking about love, your culture and your experiences will dictate how you show up in relationship, whether it is romantic, in community, with your tribe as well.

So you all, the name of your partnership, your business, however you frame it, is Marriage Perfectly Imperfect.

And I know that naming is intentional, right?

Tell us about how you came to that name.

>>We came to that name when we first started our business a few years ago.

And we were in the kitchen and we had realized that this was our calling.

Like we knew that this was an assignment that had been given to us to help couples navigate their relationships because we just couldn't escape it.

We had friends, family, people from church, people from our community calling asking about, "Hey, this is going on in my relationship, what do you guys think?"

And then we naturally love to host spaces where couples were present and to encourage that couples community.

And so we decided that we would do something formal so that we could support more couples in that way.

And we thought about our relationship about that our relationship isn't perfect, at the time, we were kind of in our self - relationships are self-discovery the whole time.

And so if you're not practicing self-discovery throughout your relationship, there's going to be a problem.

And so we were in the discovery phase where we were realizing like, oh, you're not perfect.

You're not perfect, you know?

And because you think your partner is, when you say perfect for me, that doesn't mean perfect as a person.

And so we were realizing that a big part of us having a successful marriage, and I do also wanna say, sometimes, people get humble about saying they have a successful marriage.

And I really want to encourage more couples that have a successful marriage to say "I have a successful loving marriage."

>>Yes.

>>Because there are a lot of people saying the opposite.

>>Yes.

>>And the more you put the opposite out, that's what we're going to get.

And so part of our mission also is to let people know, like we are happy, but it doesn't mean that we're perfect.

And accepting the imperfections that your partner brings to the relationship, the imperfections that they hold as an individual, and releasing them from that expectation of perfection.

And that they're always gonna do things right.

They're always gonna do what you say.

They're always gonna know how you feel.

They're never gonna mess up.

>>That's right.

Changing that perception allows you to show up so much better when conflict does arise because it's gonna arise.

And if I've already released you from the perception of being perfect, we're already starting, wait, we're at an even playing field now.

I know you're gonna mess up, and that's okay.

It doesn't mean that we don't talk about what happened, but it means that I take it a little less personal.

>>Yes.

>>I take it in differently.

And so that we're able to resolve the conflict better.

So just helping couples see that it's okay to have imperfections.

It's okay for him to not know how to do certain things or not read your mind all the time, it's okay.

How do we navigate it?

>>Yes.

>>Yeah, I agree with that.

Sometimes it's a decision, you have to make the decision that we're gonna work on this, right?

And one thing I learned throughout our time together is that she balances me out.

I've been uptight, I've had anxiety, and sometimes, you know, I'm in my head, and I'm like, "Oh man, I failed and I messed up," and I'll come to April.

And I'm like, "I don't wanna tell her.

And then I tell her and she's like, "It's gonna be okay."

And that helps to balance me out.

And I think I do the same for her.

>>Yeah.

Yeah.

>>You know, something that stands out to me, it was before I even got married, I remember going to a conference, and there was a couple talking about marriage.

And the one thing they said that always stood out to me was, if you start out at the top of the hill, because everybody thinks that being in love is where it's at, right?

And the one thing that we always say is marriage is work.

Marriage is work.

And I think even with the perfectly imperfect part, a lot of people were coming to us because, you know, social media, they see us, they see us out, and we do have a good time together.

And they're like, "I want that, I want that."

But they don't see the conversations behind the scenes that we have to have.

You know, we have conflicts, we have arguments but we're committed.

We made the decision that we're in this and we're gonna work through it.

And the perfectly imperfect part kind of comes out.

So going back to what I was saying earlier about if you start off at the top of the hill, there's nowhere else to go but down.

So I think through this process, what I've learned is that we do get better through every conflict, through every issue and every challenge, right?

Because, you know, I might make a mistake, or we might make a decision and it may not go well, but we've gone that way together.

And then we can walk back the other direction in the direction that we want.

So that's the balance of relationships, right?

We balance each other out.

>>Yeah, and I think you said earlier, April, just talking about how important self-discovery is, and even self-awareness in any relationship.

And it leads me to think about forgiveness.

Forgiveness and love.

As you all have talked to several couples and just been in community, what are you hearing?

Like what does forgiveness and love look and feel like in action?

And it could be in marriage, but even just in relationship outside of marriage.

>>Yeah, I think it's that part that April was talking about earlier, is not taking things personal.

Because moments, it's moments.

Sometimes things may not go well in the moment and it doesn't feel good.

I got offended in that moment and it didn't feel good.

And sometimes we can hold onto things, right?

And then, is my partner perfect?

No.

She's gonna make a mistake.

And you know how I know, because I make mistakes.

And I know what it feels like when I make a mistake, I feel guilty and all of those things.

I don't want my partner to just highlight that I'm making a mistake because it makes me wanna shrink even more, right?

So it's that part.

I tell people a lot of times that relationships, we're like mirrors from one another, right?

And you know, I don't want to if I don't want to feel bad about something, I also don't wanna make my partner feel, if she's feeling bad, I don't wanna make her feel worse.

So it's not holding onto that moment.

Because we have great moments too.

And we wanna hold onto those too.

But they're moments, right?

It's like I was saying, like love is iterative.

It's iterative.

And every day I wake up, and like she's saying, you wanna choose success, I wanna choose love.

Every day I want to choose that I'm gonna love her.

>>Yes.

>>I remember I was telling her just the other day, when I heard, you know, we got married and we did the ceremony thing.

You have the vows, sickness and health, and all of those things.

But then when the issue, the for better or for worse, when the worst comes, it's time to live into those values, is it not?

And I remember we were somewhere and we were having a little bit of a conflict, right?

She - I'm gonna tell you what the story was.

(group laughs) We were in Cancun, I gotta tell the story.

We were in Cancun and I was trying to negotiate.

>>He remembers this.

>>This you know, water skis or something.

And the guy was trying to overcharge me and I was like, "Well they're charging me this over here."

And you know my voice, I'm from New York, my voice kind of got elevated.

And she noticed some other guys were coming around.

She was like, "Babe, babe."

I was like, "I got it."

And it frustrated me because I'm like, I'm trying to negotiate this for us and like you're kind of helping this guy.

That was my perception in the moment.

>>In the moment.

>>And I was frustrated and I said to myself, "She ain't going nowhere."

Like it was just a thought that had come across like, I love her anyway.

In those moments where I'm like, I feel like you're going against me, I love you, there's nobody I'd rather argue with than her.

>>That's right.

>>Right?

Like she knows me, and you know, because we're gonna make up later.

>>I love that.

Daryl, I wanna stay with you for a second because I know you really work with Black males in like mental health and kind of you specialize in that.

How does emotional healing for Black males help them or maybe shift how they may show up in partnership?

>>Definitely, that's a really good question.

Particularly for Black men, what I find is that they don't feel like they have the ability to be vulnerable.

The reality is a lot of Black men don't feel like they have, well, they've been conditioned that way.

They've been taught they have to be tough.

They've been taught not to cry, not to have any emotion.

And that doesn't work in a relationship.

And I think it's, again, it's the conditioning that is there.

So what I like to talk to Black men about is emotional intelligence, right?

And it's almost like giving them permission to say, you have more than just being angry and that you're just chilling.

Or giving them the ability to say that, "Listen, I'm sad or I'm scared."

Right?

And just starting with that and helping them to get that language and giving themselves permission to just say it for themselves first.

Right?

>>Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

>>Mmm hmmm >>And then you get to have a real conversation.

You get to know your partner a little better.

I'm still getting to know Daryl, you know, I'm still getting to know him because you talked about it earlier.

We evolved.

He is not the same husband >>That's right.

>>I married at 26, we got married at 26?

I was 26- >>28, somewhere around that time.

>>Somewhere around that time.

But he's not the same person.

And I loved him then.

He was amazing then.

And now this version of myself, I feel so lucky.

I feel so lucky that he has evolved by choice.

Not by me saying you didn't do this, but by him saying, doing his own work about his feelings, how he felt around money and love and commitment and his fears.

Him doing his own work has allowed him to evolve into this beautiful person right here.

>>Oh, I love that.

>>And can I add on to that?

>>Of course.

>>We agreed to do that.

It was an agreement.

So the things that she asks me to do or I ask her to do, we sit down and we talk through, you know, even when we have conflicts, we'll go back and revisit, okay, what went wrong in that conversation?

>>Yes.

>>Because our agreements may not be the same as your agreements.

>>That's right.

>>How do we - or do you even know what your agreement is?

>>Do you know what you want?

>>Do you know what you want?

>>Do you know what you want?

>>Right.

Yeah.

>>Right.

That's right.

>>Deeper discovery.

>>Deeper discovery, and again, you have to start with self and asking that question, "What is it that I want?"

>>Yes.

>>Me, April, outside of him, "What is it that I want?"

Him asking the same question.

Then deciding what our agreement is going to be on now that I know what I want.

And sometimes it takes time to know what you want.

But giving yourself that space and giving your partner the space to decide what they want and then deciding what is our agreement, and now that we know what the agreement is, now we can come up with the plan.

Now that we can have some resolution around what the next steps look like.

And that is in everything, like, it's so many things in marriage where you kind of, okay, hold on, we're having a conflict, let's go back and see what the agreement is.

Can we talk about what we're even agreeing or disagreeing on?

>>That's right.

>>And that's the part of not taking it personal because it's not that I love her, I know I love her.

That's my intention.

My intention is to love her, right?

>>Yes.

>>The thing that's bothering us has absolutely nothing to do with her.

It's outside of us, right?

So finances are outside of us, right?

I might be frustrated about the finances, but it may not have anything to do with do with her.

>>Yeah.

Yeah.

>>That's right.

That's right.

We are not at that place until conflict, challenge.

>>Yeah.

>>Some kind of static happens.

We're going through life.

Everything is all good.

So there's a willingness that has to be there with that self-discovery and self-awareness to make sure that you're engaged properly with your partner.

>>Absolutely, absolutely.

That's so true.

>>You know, we're talking about big things, right?

But I often think about the micro moments, right?

So what are the day-to-day things that you can do or someone can do to show love in any form?

What are things that you all may do amongst each other in your family and community just to keep love grounded and growing?

>>We are very intentional about our time.

So we will check in with each other, sometimes on the way to work.

We have different rituals and routines.

You know, for example, we'll say what we appreciate about each other.

>>Okay.

>>So we're very intentional about our time.

>>Yeah.

>>And when we connect, so oftentimes April's like, "Hey, you know, it's time for date night."

Sometimes I'll forget.

So I try to make sure that we find times to connect throughout the day, throughout the month, and sometimes even throughout the year.

>>Yes.

>>Yeah.

I was gonna say what Daryl just said about date night.

That's a huge thing for men and women.

But what we've learned is, and this goes back to showing love, forgiveness, all the things that we said, right?

Like I'm a planner, I like to plan things.

Daryl is not the best planner, he's spontaneous, and sometimes that works.

And sometimes no, right?

But what I've learned is that is communicating, getting centered with myself, what I'm feeling, and going to him and saying, "Babe, I wanna go on a date with you."

And you know what he'll say because he loves me?

Okay.

But sometimes what we do is, you haven't taken me on a date.

You didn't plan anything.

Should he work on planning?

Yes, right?

Yes, sometimes, but also it's not the end of the world if he doesn't.

Appreciate the good moments.

Appreciate the reasons why you married your partner.

Appreciate all of the wonderful things that they do, and the things that they don't do, take out the personal thing and love them anyway.

And I was gonna say, when your partner, like when they're having a difficult moment, saying instead of addressing the thing, whatever it is, "Can I give you a foot bath?"

You know?

"Can I massage your hair?

Can I run you a bath?"

Like, and I'm not talking about for me, for him.

"Can I run you a bath?

Can I give you a bath?"

You know, and even if he says no sometimes, because sometimes men have a difficult time receiving that from their partner.

Sometimes just go and do it.

Like, I just wanna love on you a little bit.

Can I love on you a little bit?

And kind of take the choice away, of course, pay attention to the moment.

If they're up here about something, you don't wanna do it then, but taking those small moments to do something small.

Sometimes we think it has to be super big.

Like I need to plan a vacation, I need to plan a weekend retreat.

No, what can you do right now?

And it's write a letter of appreciation.

I really appreciated how you went and made groceries last week, because I was having a difficult time and I didn't wanna go make groceries.

Write a small note, like there are just so many small things that you can do.

What is it that they like?

What makes them feel loved?

>>I love it, taking advantage of those micro moments.

>>And that's where the balance comes in too because sometimes I don't think I need that, right?

So the grooming, the extra grooming, or the cologne that I get.

But it also teaches me also how to support and love her, because if she's gonna do that for me, I'm definitely gonna go out.

>>That's right.

>>Yeah.

>>The Frasers, I appreciate you all both for being here, for sharing so much of yourselves and your experience, and just really for the offering that you all have provided for us in our community and really being an example of what love can look and feel like.

So thank you all for joining us.

>>Thank you for having us.

>>Yes, on "Racism: Challenging Perceptions."

>>Thank you.

>>Thank you.

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