(soft music) - Cleveland mayor Justin Bibb and public safety officials lay out the city's plans to curb gun violence.

Former Cuyahoga County Commissioner, Jimmy Dimora, convicted of corruption in 2012, gets his prison sentence reduced.

But he's not getting out anytime soon.

And the January 6th Committee begins putting its evidence before the American people.

Ideas is next.

(soft music) Hello, and welcome to Ideas.

I'm Mike McIntyre.

Thank you for joining us.

As the U.S. House passes gun control legislation that's expected to perish in the U.S. Senate, Cleveland mayor, Justin Bibb rolls out plans to curb gun violence in Cleveland and urges lawmakers to help.

Former Cuyahoga County Commissioner Jimmy Dimora, convicted in a massive corruption scandal had his prison sentence reduced by five years.

His release date is not until 2031.

And Cleveland City Council created a commission to help make Cleveland better for black women and girls.

We'll talk about those stories and the rest of the week's news on the reporter's round table.

Joining me this week from Ideastream Public Media, managing producer for health, Marlene Harris-Taylor and reporter Matt Richmond.

In Columbus, Statehouse Bureau news editor, Andy chow.

Let's get ready to round table.

The discussion about what to do to curb gun violence wasn't contained to the halls of Congress or focus solely on mass shootings this week.

Cleveland leaders unveiled a plan to curb gun violence after 459 shootings and 52 gun-related homicides have been committed so far this year.

Matt, let's talk about that.

One element the city wants to implement is to get police out of their cruisers into the neighborhoods at least an hour per shift.

- Yeah, for shift one and two.

So basically the daytime shifts.

It would be focused in commercial districts.

It would be walking down St. Clair, for instance, and stopping in, talking to business owners about what's been going on in the neighborhood.

- And how will that help?

What's the thinking?

- Well, the idea is that if citizens know the police officers that work in their neighborhoods kind of on a name, on a first person basis and know who they are... - [Mike] Yeah, hey officer Joe, right.

- Yeah, that either when something happens, when they see that officer, they'll feel comfortable talking to them or if there's something going on that hasn't kind of turned into something the police need to respond to but that these shop owners know about, kind of give them word that something is kind of bubbling under the surface.

- Okay, so community policing.

I mean, we've kind of had this for a long time.

The idea though is specifically to inform the officers and cruisers to get out.

You've gotta do that.

It's not optional.

We need to be a part of the community.

What are some other measures though?

I heard a lot of talk about using grant money to make sure there are things for young people to do.

The idea, I guess being, if you're playing midnight basketball, you're not out on the streets, possibly engaged in gunfire.

- Yeah, that's a very popular thing in a lot of cities is during the summer have basketball from like 12:00 to 3:00 in the morning.

So kids have somewhere to go at night.

There's also discussion about increasing police presence at events.

Cleveland Police continue to have a problem with staffing.

So increasing in one place like at events during the summer might be a challenge.

- And that's something they wanna do.

They wanna increase the presence because of... We've talked about the regular street violence, the shootings that have been happening on the streets, 52 homicide deaths, nearly 500 shootings in a year.

But then we hear about these mass shootings.

And so they wanna be able to be protective against that.

- Yeah, they have to be ready in case that happens here, of course.

- Andy, let's talk about what's going on on the State level.

So we see these incidents happening in cities across the State and across the country.

And then we see these mass shootings that obviously get so much attention in Uvalde and Buffalo most recently.

I think there was another one just yesterday.

What is the reaction of the legislators in Columbus?

We see on a national level, the U.S. House is saying, "Okay, we're passing a measure.

Even if the Senate won't do it, we're symbolically passing it."

But the legislature in Ohio seems to have no stomach for that at all.

- No, and in fact, whenever this issue does come up in the Ohio Legislature, in the Republican-dominated House and the Senate, it is about expanding access to guns rather than regulating access to guns.

And so we've been seeing the State of Ohio move in the opposite direction of some of those issues that you just mentioned, where the U.S. House is maybe moving in a different direction.

Other States are moving in a different direction.

The State of Ohio is moving to expand access to guns.

A couple of years ago, after the 2019 mass shooting in Dayton, we heard Governor Mike DeWine talk about how he did want to do something.

And he rolled out a 17 point plan to reduce gun violence, and that included expanding regulations on gun, it included gun control measures.

Now, just a few years later, in response to the Texas school shooting, Governor DeWine has basically abandoned most of those gun regulations that he once supported in hopes of doing other things when it comes to increasing school security, fortifying the actual physical building of the schools and expanding mental health resources.

- Marlene, when I hear about the measures that are being called for at the state that won't happen, and the measures that the mayor in Cleveland is saying we're going to do, you think, okay, well maybe something good can come of that.

But you can despair when you think about things like this.

In 2019, we had a conversation here on, The Sound of Ideas with young people who were in the juvenile detention center in Cuyahoga County.

- [Marlene] Oh, I remember that.

That was a powerful conversation.

- And I asked these young people, why do you carry a gun?

And they laughed at me.

They said, "You have to have a gun.

I mean, if you're gonna walk the streets and somebody's gonna roll up on you, you're gonna have to defend yourself."

And I said well, in fact, Matt, you were there as well at that interview.

How do you get these guns?

Easy, someone older will sell it to you.

The access to the guns and the gun culture is such that, would a basketball game or some other diversion program actually help?

How do you get to this point of we've gotta do something and yet despair?

- Yeah, it is a lot.

There's a lot of despair, Mike.

And listening to the conversation between you and Matt and Andy, I was just thinking that all of this leads to a frustrated, afraid, and confused public.

Because people have indicated over and over again in the United States that they would love to see what some people call sensible gun control, right?

Some background checks, making sure that people who are mentally ill don't have access to guns, raising the age to who can get guns, to your point, Mike, about these young people being able to easily get guns.

And I think there's wide consensus.

Probably even here in Ohio.

I haven't seen direct Ohio polling, but I've seen the national polling about this, but yet none of this ever gets done.

And to Andy's point, we're moving the opposite direction in Ohio making it even easier for people to get guns without training.

And big city mayors like Mayor Bibb, they're just frustrated because without action on the State and the federal level, there's really very little they can do.

Even if we passed gun legislation in Ohio, let's say, people could just go across the border to Michigan or some other State.

So unless there's a national focus and solution on this, the rest of this stuff is just gonna be band aids.

You know, midnight basketball, a bandaid.

- I was thinking about this too where people say, well, if you pass this particular piece of legislation, it wouldn't have stopped this.

That person could have still legally gotten a gun or people who are criminals will illegally get guns.

And it made me think of that argument and whether we're at this point in the country.

And I've heard some congressmen say this, it's not gonna solve all the problems.

We gotta do something.

- [Marlene] Yes.

- And it's that starfish analogy, right?

You're walking along the beach and there's a million starfish and you throw one in, and the grandson says, "Why'd you do that?

You can't save all these starfish."

He said, "Well, I made a difference for that one."

- [Marlene] I saved that one.

- So what about that as a concept, and are we there?

- Well, that's what I was saying before.

I think the public is there.

The public is saying, at least from the polling and what we see, the public appears to be saying, let's save that one starfish or let's save this child who's in school.

If we can save two children in school, it's worth it.

I mean, one of the stats that really got to me that's come out recently, is that gun violence is now the number one killer of young people.

It used to be car accidents, but now it's guns.

And one of the things that's not reported often is within that stat, it's suicides.

Many young people are using these guns that they have ready access to, to commit suicide.

It's just tragic.

- One of the interesting things from this week was I saw a story that in Columbus the mayor and the law director are considering ways to use public health laws to put restrictions in place in Columbus on guns and possibly gun ownership.

They didn't get into details, but like Marlene was saying, it's such a great health risk because so many people die from it.

That could be a different strategy for doing something.

- [Mike] Hmm, interesting.

- Yeah, there has been that talk about that for a couple years is let's think of guns as a public health crisis, right?

But for years, public health entities like the CDC, they were banned from even collecting data about gun violence in the United States.

They have started collecting data now.

I believe it was under the Trump administration that they began to be allowed.

But the researchers are saying that we're even behind on that.

Because we were banned for so many years from just collecting the data that public health officials could then use to attack this, what is absolutely a public health crisis.

- One last point on this Andy, and that's it.

Marlene talked about how the public is in favor of what some would define as sensible gun control.

Certainly not canceling the Second Amendment, but putting in background checks, universal background checks and raising the age limit and banning high capacity magazines.

But it's not all of the public.

And if you look at some of those polls, a recent Marist Poll, being an example, you see a really huge partisan divide where Democrats say, yes, I think gun control is more important than protecting gun rights.

And Republicans overwhelmingly go the other way.

- And that's a trend that we've seen shifting over just the past few years recently.

Whereas, if you were to look at polling five years ago, and you talked to people about expanded background checks, that's closing these background check loopholes, It was the vast majority, Republicans and Democrats agreed on those types of "common sense issues".

But you are starting to see more of a rift, more of a divide, more partisan leaning people making their decisions against gun control possibly because of how they lean politically.

And we talk about these issues that are supported, are not supported, are effective, maybe not effective.

There are three issues that constantly circulate around the Statehouse that have seemed to maybe gain traction at some point.

But now because of the nature of the legislature, because of who's in office, it seems to be a non-starter.

That's expanded background checks, like I just mentioned, the so-called red flag law, which people don't like that term but it's a safety protection order, giving judges the ability to take a weapon from somebody who's deemed to be a threat to themselves or others.

And the third one that used to have wide support, even among legislators, was providing or creating rules to make sure that people lock up their firearms.

So who can have a firearm?

We already know that.

But if you do have a gun, you have to lock it up so young people can't get ahold of it.

We've talked about mass shootings.

We've talked about gun violence.

And Marlene even mentioned the issue of suicide.

There are so many different ways people can be affected by gun violence that experts have said, if you lock up the guns, it could go a long way to helping that issue.

(soft music) - The House Select Committee investigating the January 6th, 2021 riot at the U.S. Capitol began to unveil its findings on a nationally televised hearing Thursday night.

Andy, did you watch last night?

And was there anything that revealed anything surprising to you?

- Well, I think the most surprising thing from last night was just all the video that they were able to gather, and then all the reactions that we're starting to see from the testimony that they collected.

And it was pretty powerful even though we've seen that type of video before.

We've seen video of people storming the Capitol, the events that led up to the insurrection, but just to see it the way it was put out there was pretty striking again.

And I also just find it interesting the way that they have, this is more of a logistical thing, but the way that they have set up this committee hearing doesn't seem to be the kind of bland, typical bureaucratic Senate or House Committee meeting that we're used to.

There are teleprompters, there's more production behind it.

And I don't know if that's going to be more or less effective or to relay the point that this committee wants to make, but I just found it interesting that people talked about this being a primetime sort of show.

And it really did come off that way.

- Marlene, one of the things that struck me was some of the sound they played, the testimony they played, which one of them was the Attorney General William Barr saying, "I told president Trump that there's no there there.

There is not stealing of the election."

And then subsequently removed Barr.

But hearing those types of things, and even Ivanka Trump saying, "Well, I trust Barr and that's what he said."

was interesting to hear that inner circle part of it, 'cause you just don't know whether everybody's whipped in a lather all at the same time or whether it's the president, the former president going against even advice from his own inner circle, which it appears to be.

- Yeah, I think they were really effective in using Republican voices to tell the story of what was going on with the president during that day.

And having Bill Barr and Ivanka his daughter say, "Hey, there was nothing going on, there was no stealing going on.

And we told the president that at the time."

I think what really was powerful for me, Mike was when the U.S. Capitol police officer Caroline Edwards, when she testified and described that day for her and what it was like.

Because I had seen the video of police officers fighting off the crowd, but to hear her say, it was like hand-to-hand combat for hours, something that she was not trained for at all.

She sustained terrible injuries during that fight and still kept fighting on.

And it was just really powerful to hear that in her own voice.

I think she was a really key witness.

- What's interesting, Matt is we're talking about the things that affected us as we're watching this hearing.

And the things that affect me or Marlene may be completely different than what affects someone else.

And if you look at Twitter while the thing is going on, you kind of get the impression no one's mind is getting changed.

That there are people that are looking at this and saying, listen, it's just a bunch of Democrats trying to drag Republicans through the mud.

And you hear others say this was an insurrection, it needs to be put down and the president needs to be held accountable for it.

But does a thing like this, in your view, can someone look at it and say, oh, okay, well that's evidence that changed my mind.

- Yeah.

Well, I was thinking a couple days ago when it was announced that Fox News wouldn't be broadcasting it, that, that is a big loss because that would be an audience that might include people who would be convinced.

And then it might compel people like Jim Jordan and Mark Meadows, the former chief of staff, to go in front of the cameras and make their case for that audience.

But without that, I mean, I don't know who they're trying to convince.

And there is, of course, a good reason to get all this stuff on the historical record in this way.

But convincing people, I'm not sure.

- Well, some people say they were trying to convince Merrick Garland to do something, right?

So some people say they were trying to...

There was an audience of one there, of Merrick Garland who could bring charges.

This committee can't bring criminal charges.

And we don't know what the Justice Department is going to do.

So if it convinced him they'd feel like maybe they made the case.

But there's others who say, there's more to this than just trying to change minds.

'Cause to your point, Mike.

- [Mike] Right.

- People seem pretty hardened in their positions, right?

But there's a point of having this for the historical record.

So it's clear to the country and for history, and for time, after we're all gone, that is clearly in the record what really happened here.

Because there's people who are trying to whitewash the history and say, "Oh, no, it was nothing.

It was just a few people who were tourists hanging out.

It was a little..." What was it?

- [Mike] A dust up.

- Yeah.

Recently, a coach said, "Oh, it was just a little dust."

- [Mike] Jack Del Rio, yeah.

- Thank you.

I couldn't think of his name.

Jack Del Rio said, "Oh it was just a little dust up."

This was not a little dust up.

And now it's being recorded for history that it was not.

I was also really surprised about to hear the coordination with the Proud Boys the day before, that part, I did not know.

So they made it really clear that this was not just something that sprung up that morning.

- And I wanna ask you about that Matt, because you, for a long time, worked on the project, guns in America, Guns & America, which one is it?

And?

- [Matt] And.

- Okay.

Guns and America, but they are in America, which is what you're recovering.

But you worked for a long time on that project and you continue to work on those types of issues for us exclusively.

And you've been following Oath Keepers and Proud Boys.

And last night we saw pieces of a documentary film were very specifically pointed to the Proud Boys and to groups like that and their participation in this.

- Yeah.

Well, there are a total of four Oath Keepers who were in that group who faced more serious charges of seditious conspiracy.

And the really frightening thing that came out as the preliminary hearings in a federal court were going on with these defendants is that they had stockpiled weapons in a hotel outside of DC with the idea that, at some point we're probably gonna have to come back and bring these weapons into the Capitol, 'cause something's going to happen.

- It seemed remarkable too that partially leading that investigation last night was Liz Cheney, who is a Republican.

And I think she's one of very few that are standing against president Trump.

- I think there's two on the committee.

- [Mike] Yeah.

- [Marlene] Her and Adam Kinzinger.

- Right.

And her saying directly to her Republican colleagues, "Trump will be gone someday, but your dishonor will remain."

Which was a powerful moment.

Andy, let's talk about another Republican, Jim Jordan.

I mentioned he's pugnacious as always in saying, "I'm not coming."

- Right, and there are a lot of questions out there as to what kind of role was he playing leading up to January 6th?

What kind of role did he play in the narrative and spreading the misinformation about a false stolen election.

And instead, he says that this is a committee that's acting for its own political interest and he doesn't wanna be a part of it.

He thinks it's unconstitutional.

And on top of the letter that he sent to the Committee saying that he's not gonna come, he went to Twitter.

And started tweeting out to his followers trying to, again, undercut the importance of this committee, undercut the depth and width of how tragic and horrible the events of January 6th were, and trying to make equivalencies to other things like baby formula shortage and gas prices.

Where I think people can agree that these are all important issues, but one was an insurrection that happened after the president gave a speech to his followers just blocks away from the Capitol.

And I agree with what Marlene said about, I think this goes beyond changing people's minds at this point, these are events that happened.

And it needs to be put out there into the public.

And maybe whether people believe it or not, these are things that happened and that need to be remembered for the future.

(soft music) - A federal judge has shaved five years off the prison sentence of former Cuyahoga County Commissioner, Jimmy Dimora.

His release date is now 2031.

Matt, this was not the reduction Dimora had hoped for and his lawyers wanted more based on his ailing health.

- Yeah, he's about to turn 67 and he has heart problems, diabetes, he needs a new knee, a couple other issues.

And he's in a federal medical center in Massachusetts now.

- And the judge's response to that when the lawyer said, "Listen, he's sick."

Was, he was sick when we sent him there.

- Yeah, most of the problems he already had when he was sentenced.

There's nothing that says that a federal medical center can't handle an aging man with heart problems.

And then the third thing which was really interesting is that they used Sentencing Commission data and looked at the people who have been charged for similar public corruption crimes and the sentences that they got.

And they found that the sentence that this same judge, Judge Lioi gave in 2012, was well hired.

The average is something like 10 years for similar defendants.

And she gave a 28-year sentence.

And so they tried to make the argument that like, now that we have this data, it's pretty clear that this was a disparate sentence for... - Is part of that because he has never given an inch, and never admitted a thing and said, "Listen, it was all on a disclosure form.

And I did nothing wrong."

- Well, the focus in the hearing was that a lot of times those tenure sentences are for a single act.

You take one bribe to do one thing.

This was a year's long, 12 years as a county commissioner.

This was just a year's long sort of series of schemes that were so deeply entrenched in the way that government worked.

That it's not despair because it's just the scope of what he did.

And he didn't say anything.

He was given the opportunity to speak.

He said, "Nope, I'm not talking."

- And not just the county commissioner, but the Democratic Party boss for a long time.

And he was politics, as politics was democratic in Cuyahoga County, he was politics in Cuyahoga County.

(soft music) Cleveland City Council unanimously passed legislation this week creating the Cleveland Commission on Black Women and Girls.

The commission will advise the mayor and council about how to address systemic problems.

Cleveland was ranked the worst metropolitan area for black women in a City Lab ranking, not too long ago.

And I think that's where this all springs from, Marlene.

- [Marlene] Yup.

- The concept came from that ranking, essentially, okay, what are we gonna do about it?

We'll at least pay attention to it.

- Yeah, that livability index that Bloomberg City Lab put out in like 2020, early 2020, really created ripple effects across Cleveland because, when they looked at cities that are livable for black women, Cleveland was at the bottom.

And there was this sense that black women in Cleveland said collectively almost, that's what I've been feeling and now somebody has put words to it, right?

So I think what happened is you had this confluence of black women, some black women had moved into key positions in Cleveland.

So they were able to take this information and turn it into action, right?

- So the action is advice to the administration and to council.

But if there's an idea, a plan, something that might take some money, there isn't any money behind this right now.

- There's no money.

The council president said that, first of all, they have to come up with recommendations and then maybe some money will follow.

And I don't think that that's different from other commissions or groups that they've put together to look at problems in the city.

- He had a good line when he did a press conference before the last Council meeting of the summer.

And he had a good line of... - [Mike] Who's he?

- Oh, sorry.

Council president, Griffin.

- [Mike] Oh, Blaine Griffin, right?

- Blaine Griffin.

And he said go up to fifth floor of City Hall and it's full of dead commissions.

(Marlene laughs) - [Marlene] That is a good line.

- They are serious about not adding this one to it.

- [Marlene] Right, they want there... - But money's coming at a later date.

- Right, they want this to actually do something right.

And I have to give a shout out to Enlightened Solutions, the Cleveland Research and Advocacy Firm behind Project Noir, because they really are the group that has collected real data on this issue.

They put out a survey and let black women answer that survey.

And they've been working hard to be a solution-focused group.

And they really worked hard with the City Council members, Council member House and Gray to help make this happen.

So if it wasn't for Enlightened Solutions... And I also have to give another plug, Mike that Ideastream is actually working with Enlightened Solutions to work on a podcast on this same topic.

So you'll be hearing more about that from us.

- Monday on The Sound of Ideas on 89.7 WKSU, we'll discuss autism with those living on the spectrum, as well as with experts working at Milestones Autism Resources, a group celebrating 20 years of serving that community.

I'm Mike McIntyre.

Thanks so much for watching, and stay safe.

(soft music)