VIVIAN SALAMA: I want to read an excerpt from David's piece yesterday, something that's really striking.

He says it took the imperious implacable personality of Donald Trump to ram a peace deal home.

The blustering go it alone president did it in an unlikely way by listening to others and organizing a coalition that, by the end, included all major Arab and European nations, as well as Israel and Hamas.

You know, taking that into consideration, Mark, we talked so much during the Biden years about leverage, this concept of leverage, whether it was weapons and other assistance to Israel that might get it to either let aid into Gaza or let -- have them scale back on their bombardment of Gaza.

President Biden did not withhold weapons.

Neither did President Trump.

Was there some other leverage, or was it, as David says, this personality, this -- you know, his personality and just his ability to influence Bibi Netanyahu that made this possible?

MARK MAZZETTI, Washington Correspondent, The New York Times: I think there's a few things.

First off, Netanyahu has built his entire political career on being the person who knows American politics, right?

He sells it as I know America, I know political shifts.

And the politics have changed also.

That's one thing to say about politics toward Israel.

The Republican Party support for Israel is no longer a given, especially among younger Republicans.

And President Trump has voices in his head in the MAGA wing of the Republican Party who think Israel just gets the United States into trouble.

That's part of it.

That's part of where Netanyahu knows that he needs Trump.

He needs the United States more than anything.

Europe can all go in another direction, but he fundamentally needs American support.

So, when Trump pressures him, it certainly matters.

But there's another thing.

And that's a more recent event, and that was the September 9th strike that the Israelis took in Doha, where they tried to kill the Hamas negotiating team.

And it really was a game changer.

I was actually in Israel when that happened, and there was this shock about that they actually -- you know, even after the last year where Israel had struck in Iran and Lebanon and Yemen and Syria, doing this changed things and it changed things for Trump and at the White House.

VIVIAN SALAMA: Why?

MARK MAZZETTI: Well, because, first of all, they didn't know about it.

And, you know, they were outraged.

They were outraged.

They were trying to end this war.

And the day before Jared Kushner is meeting with Ron Dermer, who's a Bibi senior adviser, in Florida to hash out, you know, a kind of peace deal, and then the next day, you know, Dermer doesn't tell him that they're about to bomb into Doha, and they're furious.

So, that does change the dynamic.

And that's also, to your point, gets the Arab governments to sort of see an opportunity here to pressure Israel and also to pressure Hamas to end the conflict.

So that's another big element.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And, David, on the flipside of that -- oh, please, yes, Jon.

JONATHAN KARL: I'm just going to say, think about that moment of that strike in Doha.

There was a sense that this was - - the peace talks were over.

I mean, how can you have peace talks when at an assemblage of peace talks, the Hamas side is bombed?

There was a sense that it was -- that any hopes of ending this conflict were dashed.

MARK MAZZETTI: And the hostages could all be -- JONATHAN KARL: Yes.

And there was, well, what are the fate for the hostages?

But what happened instead is it was such a crisis that, first of all, you had the effort that that Jared Kushner was making, which was the long-term plan for a post-war Gaza -- VIVIAN SALAMA: Which began in around August, about a month before that.

JONATHAN KARL: -- and the effort that -- and the other effort you had with Steve Witkoff to get a hostage deal, will those come together?

And Witkoff and Kushner are working together.

Our Gulf Allies are outraged by the Israelis, so is the White House and there's much more urgency to the task.

That urgency is what brought us to this moment.

VIVIAN SALAMA: You know, and since we're on this topic, David, I'll come to you in a second because I want to talk a little about Hamas, but, you know, Prime Minister Netanyahu was here in the oval with President Trump over a week ago.

And an apology to Qatar was a critical element to get this moving forward.

Not just that, President Trump also very quietly signed security guarantees for Qatar.

What more do we know about that, you know, in terms of the phone call, but also President Trump's decision to just grant security guarantees for Qatar, which infuriated many in Israel?

DAVID IGNATIUS: So, Qatar after this strike on the Hamas negotiators who were in Doha demanded a public apology from Israel and a security guarantee from the United States that it would not be attacked again.

It had asked for such a guarantee after Iran attacked, U.S.

didn't give it.

But this time, it was granted.

And, you know, the crazy thing about that strike was Netanyahu, in effect, was destroying the one channel he had to end the war.

And, you know, there is a sense of exhaustion in the Israeli military.

Netanyahu may have wanted to continue, but it was a moment when Trump got angry.

Qatar said, you know, either you do what we want or, you know, it's over.

And I think there was a rallying, Trump decided he was going to move, he was going to pressure Israel.

And the whole dynamic changed in that moment.

It's unlikely that that strike would've produced peace, but, you know, it began the process.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And, David, very quickly while I have you to talk about the Hamas position in all of this.

I mean, Hamas has called President Trump, and I'm quoting here, a racist, a, quote, recipe for chaos and a man with an absurd vision for Gaza.

So, what would motivate them at this stage?

DAVID IGNATIUS: Exhaustion, pressure from the Palestinian population in Gaza, certainly pressure from every Arab country.

You know, this 20-point peace plan is essentially a surrender document.

Hamas gives up its weapons, it gives up future political control in Gaza.

I mean, you know, it's an unlikely series of things for them to agree to.

And my biggest fear is that what's going to happen as we move past this wonderful first phase and guns go silent is we'll have a low level insurgency of a kind that's very familiar to the United States and to Israel, which could continue indefinitely, because there will be Hamas fighters who want to fight to the death, who are not prepared to turn over their guns, who don't want amnesty.

They want to fight.

And, you know, how the U.S.

is going to deal with that how Israel will deal with that, you know, over the next hill as it were.

JONATHAN KARL: And who's going to run Gaza?

I mean, there's this idea of this technocratic government and, you know, the regional powers will come.

I mean, who is going to keep the security in Gaza?

DAVID IGNATIUS: You know, so one of the wonderful things that has begun with phase one is the delivery of aid.

How is it going to be distributed safely inside Gaza that's going to be chaotic, where there's nobody to keep order and peace?

You know, that's in the next few days.

I shudder to think what the kind of violence you might see as people scramble, desperate people scramble for the aid that's now arrived.

NANCY CORDES: And that's why this summit that's taking shape in Egypt in a few days that President Trump is slated to attend is so important because there are these momentous questions, who's going to run Gaza?

Who's going to rebuild Gaza?

President Trump just said today he's counting on these wealthy Gulf nations, these wealthy allies throughout the region to put up some serious money to help rebuild what was destroyed.

And, you know, if everyone sort of like wipes their hands and says, okay, the deal is done, it's going to create the conditions for the very kind of low level insurgency that you're talking about.

MARK MAZZETTI: And I think we're all agreeing on that this is taking time and attention for a long time and commitment from the United States and commitment from the president.

And is he going to stick with it?

Because if he doesn't, right, then, to David's point about violence, anything could trigger, a start again of the war.

I think there's a lot of elements of the Israeli government, certainly the prime minister, who would see a pretext for war in a Hamas attack, that if Trump isn't leaning on them and all parties, that this could become violent again.

And that's my big concern.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And, Nancy, you just actually mentioned President Trump's trip to the region.

You're going to be joining him on that trip.

What else do we know about his itinerary?

NANCY CORDES: Well, he is going to be going to Israel.

He's going to be speaking to the Knesset for the -- he's the first president, U.S.

president, to speak to the Knesset since George W. Bush.

And then he'll head to Sharm El-Sheikh in Egypt to meet with leaders from the region.

There will probably be some European leaders there as well to talk about what happens next.

I mean, even the president himself, his vision for Gaza has evolved over time.

You know, it wasn't that long ago that he was saying people would need to be moved out so that there could be this really glitzy redevelopment in Gaza.

He's kind of backed away from that.

Yesterday, he said, nobody has to be displaced from Gaza while the rebuilding takes place.

But there are still so many unanswered questions about what happens there and who's in charge and who's footing the bill.

That conversation is going to begin in earnest in Egypt.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And so many unknowns there.

Jon, you know, we keep hearing about the two players on the American side who have largely orchestrated these talks, Steve Witkoff, the envoy for the Middle East, and the president's son-in-law who is not in government, but he's back, Jared Kushner.

What can you tell us about their role in all of this?

JONATHAN KARL: Look, Jared Kushner is -- I mean, Witkoff's been frenetically traveling the region, meaning -- and, by the way, he's also, you know, the envoy for Ukraine.

He's, he seems to be everywhere.

Marco Ruby, the actual secretary of state, you know, is also the national security adviser, this is really something that came together with an incredibly small team.

Witkoff travels with a team.

His entire support staff is four people, I believe.

But Kushner was the one that was really crafting this 20-point plan.

You know, he is the one -- he had already been working on the plan for post-Gaza.

This is really the return of Jared Kushner who I think was the critical player in pushing this thing through.

And, by the way, it's part of the plan.

I mean, it's somewhat utopian.

You know, it talks about in the vision for post-war Gaza, one of the, one of the points is a reduction in tariffs, is to be like favorable tariffs.

I mean, as if like, you know, Gaza's ready to start producing mass exports.

I mean, there are huge questions about where it goes now.

But that's kind of characteristic of Jared Kushner, which is -- and Witkoff too, this very optimistic, we're deal guys, we can get this stuff done.

You know, the politicians don't understand it.

The diplomats, you know, go through, you know, too many contortions.

We just -- the point is, let's make the deal, let's get it done.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And U.S.

officials who briefed us on Thursday talked about potential phase two, what comes next, and, David, you were alluding to that earlier.

One of the things that was very striking is an international stabilization force that might include at least 200 American troops, which is quite striking for a president who said he was going to curb U.S.

presence abroad and U.S.

wars abroad.

And so what do we know about the involvement of those 200 troops or what don't we know about?

DAVID IGNATIUS: So, from what was initially announced, they will be a kind of command and control force based in Israel.

You know, whether this is going to be an open-ended commitment that could expand, we don't know.

That will reassure the other countries that are going to beyond the ground in Gaza, in the international stabilization force that countries, like I said, Italy, Azerbaijan, Indonesia.

There are a range of countries that have agreed privately to contribute troops.

But just getting enough stability for that force to be able to enter safely, you know, you got a long distance to go.

And it's still not clear to me who's going to do it.

JONATHAN KARL: And the White House is adamant that those U.S.

troops are not going into Gaza.

They are not keeping the peace in Gaza.

They're there to have this coordination function in Israel.

And they're also troops that are already in the region.

I mean, the White House is trying to minimize exactly what this means.

DAVID IGNATIUS: But there's some U.S.

skin in the game, even though they won't be exposed to fire.

That's one of the things actually that I think is good about this deal.

The U.S.

is there to help and stabilize.

NANCY CORDES: Yes.

They're there to monitor the ceasefire.

They are troops that are specialized in logistics and transportation to help with all the logistics with bringing aid back into Gaza.

So, they're not, at least at this point, supposed to be crossing that border, but they'll be there to make sure that the ceasefire is being carried out to the letter of the agreement.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And, Mark, very briefly, the White House started to whisper the words Abraham Accords again, the normalization deals with Israel.

Of course, the coveted normalization with Saudi Arabia is still sort of out there.

How realistic is that at this stage with everything that's happening?

MARK MAZZETTI: So, before October 7th I think it actually was happening under the Biden administration.

And why is that?

Because the Palestinians were basically left to the side, right?

Israel and Saudi Arabia were going to normalize relations.

No one was thinking about the Palestinians, even the Saudis, right?

After October 7th, after the war, it was clear the Palestinians could no longer be ignored.

I think, you know, with the ending of the war, if all these phases continue down the road, there will be this possibility.

But there's still the question of is there a Palestinian state?

Will there ever be a Palestinian state?

That is in the current construct of the Israeli government.

That is a total deal breaker.

They would never go along with it, right?

And the question is, would the Saudis demand it, right, or are there other things that would mollify the Saudis to get normalization with Israel that the U.S.

could give them?

And, once again, the question is who's going to be speaking for the Palestinians?

VIVIAN SALAMA: Nancy, we have just about a minute left, and I want to just turn to the shutdown.

The director of the Office of Management and Budget, Russ Vought, wrote today on X, the RIFs have begun referring to reduction in force plans that the White House has been contemplating.

You were just at the White House.

What did the president have to say about this?

NANCY CORDES: Well, I tried to get him to provide any kind of details about the size of these layoffs, the number of people who got letters today, which agencies they come from.

He -- all he would say is it's a lot and it's all Democratic priorities, but he wouldn't go into more specifics.

We do know that there are some workers from the EPA who have gotten letters informing them that they are going to be laid off 60 days from now, DHS, HHS, some workers there as well.

JONATHAN KARL: Education.

NANCY CORDES: But we're still -- exactly, education.

But we're still trying to get our arms around, you know, how widespread this is, whether it's more of a scare tactic, as Democrats say, or whether these are true, significant cuts to the federal workforce.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And in 30 seconds, are we any closer, Jon, to seeing an end to the shutdown?

JONATHAN KARL: I don't think so.

I mean, look, Congress is not even going to be in session until, you know, midweek next week.

I don't see any light at the end of this tunnel.

And, you know, Russ Vought, the OMB director does, I think, see a shutdown as a great opportunity to do what he really wants to do, which is to reduce the size of the federal workforce.

VIVIAN SALAMA: A lot to cover there and we'll -- but we have to leave it there.

Thank you so much to our guests for joining me, and thank you at home for watching.

You can read more about the Gaza peace deal by visiting theatlantic.com.

I'm Vivian Salama.

Goodnight from Washington.