William Brangham: We have seen all the swing state polls.

You guys have all seen them as well.

We can put up the graphic of the latest CNN polling number.

I mean, it is still a very, very snug race in a lot of states, I mean, within the margin of error in a lot of these states.

Wisconsin maybe has the biggest gap there, but a lot of those other states, not a very big gap there.

Donald Trump received some criticism today from -- I mean, when we're talking about what's going to move voters in the end, I'm curious what your take on this is.

Dick Cheney, who no one could accuse of being a, quote/unquote, RINO, Republican in name only -- Lisa Desjardins: I'm sure he is being accused of that.

William Brangham: Well, maybe.

But, he came out today and gave this excoriating statement about Donald Trump.

Let me read a little bit of what he said.

Dick Cheney said, there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump.

He tried to steal the last election using lies and violence to keep himself in power after the voters had rejected him.

He can never be trusted with power again.

Vivian, in the end, does a man like Dick Cheney, a Republican stalwart, but albeit a man of a different generation, and maybe even a different era, does that move the needle in any meaningful way?

Vivian Salama: I mean, first of all, Dick Cheney has his own baggage.

So, let's just remember that as well, that he was a controversial figure in his time.

The short answer is no.

We have seen countless, you know, statesmen, former statesmen and women come out after having served some of them under the Trump administration to say he is not fit for office, he is a danger to national security or a danger to the United States, and a number of these people even saying that they would not vote for him.

At the end of the day, does Donald Trump's base care what Dick Cheney or any of these people have to say?

The answer is no.

Now, would more moderate Republicans listen to it, they may consider it.

I don't know if Dick Cheney personally would move the needle, but there are some other people, like General John Kelly, who served as Trump's chief of staff, who's highly respected in the national security world, certainly -- William Brangham: Jim Mattis.

Vivian Salama: -- Jim Mattis, another one, his former secretary of defense.

You know, when these people come out and they speak, they definitely get the attention of a lot of people, especially in that orbit.

But at the end of the day, a lot of them are choosing Republican policies over Democratic policies and not necessarily voting for the man himself.

And so whether or not it moves the needle, I don't think very much, no.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: It's just emblematic of the shift of the Republican Party and what Donald Trump is, a very much, a very different Republican Party than the Dick Cheney, George Bush Republican Party.

And so this is just another instance of that divide of the party.

And there's Republicans like Dick Cheney and others who want Trump to go away because then they want the old Republican Party to come back.

We'll see if that will even happen.

Lisa Desjardins: Even for Trump supporters, Republican Trump supporters, there is a discomfort.

Like Vivian and I were both in Pennsylvania this week.

That is the biggest prize of all of the swing states with 19 electoral votes.

We're on different sides of the state pretty much.

I was in North Hampton County, which is a big swing county.

You're going to hear a lot about it.

It's a fun county.

Look into it.

But I talked to, you know, one suburban Republican woman, mom, you know, she's all about her Christian faith.

She says, yes, I don't like everything Trump says, kind of a classic Trump voter, but he's a strong leader.

I support him.

I spoke to another Trump supporter woman who really spouted a series of conspiracy theories.

She was someone being trained for this Trump Force 47, potentially.

She was in that meeting.

William Brangham: She's going to be one of those people trying to persuade others.

Lisa Desjardins: She was in that meeting.

I didn't stay for the actual training, but she was there for that event.

And she told me, you know, I believe Joe Biden died three years ago.

You know, I told her, you know, that sounds like a conspiracy theory.

You know, that's a stereotype against Trump voters.

And she said, I know that, but this is true.

So, I talked to the first woman, suburban woman, Trump voter.

I said, you know, these are the other supporters of Donald Trump.

These are the same people in your party supporting him.

And she said, you know, I think that's just crazy, you know?

So, they're really on different pages.

They're both behind Donald Trump, but neither one are quite seeing the full picture of his support and what he stands for to everyone who supports him.

William Brangham: And into that vacuum, you have a candidate like Donald Trump, who -- if you're trying to run his campaign, he's an incredibly difficult person to manage.

I mean, given that this is the window through which he's supposed to be defining Kamala Harris, every time he tries to go to the microphone and say, I'm going to lay out X policy, he seemingly cannot stop himself from meandering all over the place.

I mean, today, when he was in New York, supposedly talking about other issues, he was maligning women who had accused him of sexual assault from years ago, people who are not being paid attention to by voters.

And it just seems like it's incredibly hard for him to stay on message.

Vivian Salama: And this is more of a liability now than it was a few months ago, right?

I mean, before when he was ahead in the polls by enough, the campaign was able to sort of let Trump be Trump and that was -- William Brangham: Right, when you're competing against Joe Biden.

Vivian Salama: When he was competing against Joe Biden.

But the race changed and suddenly, you know, if viewers will remember, he spoke at the National Association of Black Journalists a few weeks ago and he questioned Kamala Harris' race and made a couple of comments around that regard, and that really sent shockwaves through his campaign where they said, okay, he could really go off message and derail this entire effort that we've worked so hard to get here toward.

And so more and more they've tried to rein him in.

He's even joked about it publicly where he says, I'm going to fire my advisers because they want me to stay on message, and you guys don't like me to stay on message, talking to his supporters at the rallies and he's joked about it.

Sometimes he does stay on message, but oftentimes he goes off-script.

And I'll talk to the campaign after, you know, he delivers a rally speech and I'll ask him, you know, he said something about the Taliban leader and his conversation.

What was that about?

And he was like, yes, that wasn't in the script, you know?

A lot of times it's.

Stuff like that, where, you know, some of it is harmless and he does it for jokes, but a lot of times, he can, like today, where he starts going after women, or he talks about race and things like that really do possibly move the needle because one of the big groups that they're trying to target at the end of the day is women.

You know, abortion is a huge issue in this election, and it is a contentious issue, but also talking about women in a sexist terminology is something that can really affect voters.

William Brangham: And it happened again today.

Vivian Salama: And it happened again today.

And so these are the things where his campaign kind of starts pulling their hair, where they made it this far, you know, somewhat of a disciplined campaign, and now, you know, the potential for this race heating up is making him clearly nervous, and he's going off script more and more.

Lisa Desjardins: There is a real opportunity for the Trump campaign.

I mean, this election, it's still really close, you know?

But the fact of the matter is, what we're talking about, and, honestly, voters of all stripes I talked to in Pennsylvania, they're talking about Trump.

They're not talking about Kamala Harris.

And there's an opportunity to define her.

There is a real -- there are some moderate voters who are nervous that Democrats will go too far, you know?

There is a question about that, but that's not what we're talking about.

The Trump campaign, they're not using this opportunity in the way I think some of the campaign advisers would like.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: And it's also interesting on how Kamala Harris is dealing with it.

She's almost acting as if Trump doesn't exist.

She is running her campaign.

She is not responding to any tit-for-tat.

She is just moving forward as if he is just this like entity out here.

And it's a really fascinating strategy that I guess we'll see if it works.

William Brangham: On that strategy, Leigh Ann, one of the other things that I know you've reported a bit about is why Kamala Harris, potentially the first woman, first black, first South Indian candidate to make it to the White House, why we haven't been hearing more about that?

She seems to be actively stepping back from saying, hey, everybody, potentially history in the making here.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, she does not talk about the historic nature of her candidacy.

Even the Democratic Convention, she didn't bring it up.

Most of the speakers didn't bring it up.

I talked to a lot of people about this.

And there's a couple reasons.

First, one of her long time former chiefs of staffs told me that every single thing she has run for in her entire life, she has been a first.

It has been a record, a history-making candidacy.

William Brangham: First D.A., first female A.G., et cetera.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, first black woman senator from California, first woman vice president, list goes on.

She has never talked about it in any of her races for the past more than 20 years.

She thinks it's a distraction.

She thinks it's obvious when you look at her, so she doesn't need to bring it up.

And it's just not part of what she thinks is important.

She thinks what's important is what matters to people, what she's going to do for them, not the historic nature of her candidacy.

So, that's personally.

There's also a strategic element too.

Her campaign and people around her know, many Democrats know that it did not work for Hillary Clinton.

She really leaned into the historic nature of her candidacy.

William Brangham: I'm with her, if we all remember that.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I'm going to break the highest glass ceiling, and it didn't work.

And Democratic strategists know that it was a mistake now, in hindsight, looking back.

So, there's two elements.

The first element is it's not part of who Kamala Harris is, in the sense of how she wants to be seen, like run her campaigns.

And the other part is there's a real losing strategy.

They think that voters, that's not why they vote for people.

Lisa Desjardins: This comes back to the debate a little bit, though, because one thing that I heard in Pennsylvania, this goes back to you saying about Trump talking about women harshly.

There are voters that are not quite decided, male voters I talked to, who said, quite a few of them, they're not sure that she can stand up on the world stage to other world leaders with -- William Brangham: The classic misogynistic trope about female candidates.

Lisa Desjardins: So, it's an important moment for her to stand up, you know, to someone, you know, who touts himself as a strong leader, you know, and to show how she does that.

William Brangham: Lastly, in just the minute or so we have left, I wanted to just touch on this news that came out of the DOJ this week, where Merrick Garland again accused the Russians of trying to actively sow dissent within American politics through a series of online -- funding different groups to sort of sow division.

Do you think that in the end that that will matter in this election, or do you think we are just good enough at sowing division on our own and we don't need any foreign assistance?

Vivian Salama: Oh, I mean, this has been a concern now for multiple election cycles and it continues to grow.

The type of attacks get more sophisticated, the number of countries that are getting involved and getting on board with these attacks.

We know that the Trump and Harris campaigns both were victimized by Iranian hacks.

And so we see that there is an effort to get involved, to get to try to sway our elections.

And, obviously, it's a powerful thing that the government is very worried about.

Lisa Desjardins: Well, I'm really glad you brought it up, because we need to be aware of it.

But I think to answer your question, I think we may not know.

William Brangham: Right, until it's maybe too late.