♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Collins: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

HELLO EVERYBODY.

I'M CHRIS COLLINS, YOUR HOST.

CALLIE CROSSLEY IS OFF.

TONIGHT: CODE-SWITCHING AND HOW BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE NAVIGATE THEIR INTERACTIONS IN DIFFERENT SPACES.

WE, LIKE YOU, ARE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC.ùAND ARE TAKING PRECAUTIONS.

WE ARE WORKING WITH LIMITED STAFF AND OUR GUESTS ARE JOINING US REMOTELY.

CODE-SWITCHING IS NOT NEW.

W.E.B.

Du BOIS WROTE ABOUT THE COMPLEXITIES OF DUALITY, OR DOUBLE CONSCIOUSNESS, AND HOW BLACK PEOPLE WALKED BETWEEN TWO WORLDS, AND FOR MANY FOLKS IT WAS AND STILL IS, A NECESSITY FOR THEIR ADVANCEMENT, SURVIVAL AND PHYSICAL WELL-BEING.

BUT AS MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR DESCRIBE THEMSELVES AS "AUTHENTICALLY" OR "OPENLY" BLACK, WE BEGAN TO WONDER IN THIS TIME OF RACIAL RECKONING.

IF BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE HAVE BECOME MORE COMFORTABLE EXPRESSING THEMSELVES, THEIR FULL SELVES FREELY TO OTHERS WITHOUT CODE-SWITCHING?

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, HOW AND WHAT WILL THOSE CONVERSATIONS LOOK AND SOUND LIKE?

JOINING US TONIGHT, A GREAT PANEL.

DR. de RICKA CANADA CUNNINGHAM, A GRADUATE OF BOSTON COLLEGE'S COUNSELING PSYCHOLOGY DOCTORAL PROGRAM, A STAFF PSYCHOLOGIST AND A LICENSED PSYCHOLOGIST IN MASSACHUSETTS AND THE MULTICULTURAL SPECIALIST FOR COUNSELING AND HEALTH SERVICES AT SALEM STATE UNIVERSITY; DR. STEPHANIE BATISTE, AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF ENGLISH, BLACK STUDIES, COMPARATIVE LITERATURE, THEATER AND DANCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SANTA BARBARA; PHILLIP MARTIN, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, GBH NEWS CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING; AND SUSAN X. JANE, PRINCIPAL, OF NAVIGATORS CONSULTING, SHE HAS OVER 25 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE WORKING IN THE FIELD OF CULTURE, DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION.

WE WELCOME YOU ALL.

IT SHOULD BE A GREAT SHOW AND I HAVE SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT WHEN TALKING ABOUT CODE SWITCHING.

WHEN I LOOK AT MY OWN SELF AND THINK TO MYSELF, LIKE DO I KNOW ANYONE OF MODERATE SUCCESS, LOW LEVEL SUCCESS, NEVER MIND SUPERSUCCESS WHO AT SOME POINT IN TIME HASN'T ENGAGED IN CODE SWITCHING, WEEKLY MONTH LLLY YEARLY, DAILY.

IN A LOT OF CASES.

LET'S START WITH YOU DR. CUNNINGHAM.

IS THIS THE REALITY OF THE WORLD WE LIVE IN TODAY AND WE WILL LOOK FORWARD TO AND CONTINUE TO LOOK INTO AND LIVE IN FOR ALL THESE YEARS OF CODE SWITCHING, CODE SWITCHING CODE SWITCHING?

IS THERE A WAY OUT OF THIS?

>> WELL, CHRIS, THANK YOU AGAIN FOR HAVING ME.

AND I DON'T QUITE KNOW IF THERE'S A WAY OUT OF THIS.

I THINK IT IS VERY COMMON.

LIKE YOU SAID.

IT'S HARD TO SEE IF YOU CAN KNOW SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T ENGAGE IN CODE SWITCHING.

I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS VERY PROMINENT.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE BEEN SOCIALIZED OFTENTIMES TO DO, IT INVOLVES THIS KIND OF REALITY OF ALTERNATING BETWEEN LANGUAGES, ATTITUDES, HOW YOU EXPRESS YOURSELF, HOW YOU APPEAR, EVEN.

AND FOR MANY FOLKS THEY FEEL LIKE IT'S NECESSARY FOR SURVIVAL.

THAT AS A BLACK INDIVIDUAL, YOU KNOW, CERTAIN SYSTEMS REQUIRE YOU TO SHOW UP IN A PARTICULAR KIND OF WAY.

AND THAT YOU CODE-SWITCH IN ORDER TO SURVIVE, IN ORDER TO 35 AS THRIVE AS WELL.

AND IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S NEW IF WE THINK BACK OF THE EXPERIENCE OF OUR ANCESTORS.

CODES WERE USED FOR BASIC COMMUNICATION HISTORICALLY.

SO IT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN PASSED DOWN GENERATIONALLY.

AND IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS VERY EMBEDDED IN OUR CULTURE AND EXPERIENCE.

SO I DON'T QUITE KNOW IF IT'S GOING AWAY ANY TIME SOON.

>> Collins: DR. BATISTE IS IT DESTRUCTIVE TO WHO WE ARE AS PEOPLE OF COLOR?

>> SOME PEOPLE FIND IT REALLY DIFFICULT.

SOME PEOPLE FIND THE DEMAND TO CODE-SWITCH.

IF IT'S NOT SUBCONSCIOUS, OR AUTOMATIC, REALLY KIND OF DEGRADING OF THEIR ESTEEM.

THEIR SENSE OF COMMUNITIES.

THEIR SENSE OF THEIR OWN COMPETENCE IN ENGAGING WITH THE WORLD.

AND IT CAUSES A LOT OF STRESS AND IT CAUSES PEOPLE REALLY TO RETREAT.

THIS IDEA THAT THEY HAVE TO FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE HOW THEY SPEAK AND WHO THEY ARE.

YOU KNOW, FOR SOME FOLKS WHO, YOU KNOW, FIND CODE-SWITCHING LIKE A PERFORMANCE, SURVIVAL PERFORMANCE, IT'S SOMETHING SUBCONSCIOUS, IT HAPPENS AUTOMATICALLY, IT'S LIKE PLAYING YOURSELF A DIFFERENT WAY OUT IN PUBLIC.

THERE'S A LESS OF A STRESS RESPONSE FOR FOLKS.

AND SO WHAT PEOPLE EXPERIENCE WHEN CODE-SWITCHING CAN BE REALLY VERY DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON THE ENVIRONMENT, THEIR STANDPOINT, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT THEIR HOME LIFE, THEIR COMMUNITY LIFE FEELS LIKE, AND WHAT U.S. PUBLIC LIFE FEELS LIKE.

AND SO I THINK IT'S -- THERE'S A RANGE.

THERE'S A REAL RANGE OF HOW THIS IMPACTS PEOPLE.

>> Collins: SURE.

I MENTIONED AT THE TOP OF THE SHOW, FOR MANY OF US IT'S SURVIVAL.

I LOOK AT KIND OF PAST EXPERIENCES.

HOW DO YOU MOVE UP THE CHAIN, PHILLIP?

HOW DO YOU GET AHEAD IF YOU ARE NOT AN EFFECTIVE CODE-SWITCHER?

>> YOU KNOW I THINK THAT CODE-SWITCHING IS SOMETHING THAT IS ALSO CHANGING.

I THINK AS THE DOCTORS HERE SAID, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CODE-SWITCHING FOR A LONG TIME BUT I THINK SOMETHING HAPPENED NOT JUST OVER THE PAST SUMMER BUT AS FAR BACK AS THE BLACK LIVES MATTER ARE -- AS IT BEGAN IN 2013.

I THINK YOU FIND PARTICULARLY YOUNG PEOPLE WHO I'VE INTERVIEWED BOTH IN THE STREET AND ON THE JOB AND A LOT OF THEIR LANGUAGE DOESN'T NECESSARILY CHANGE WHEN THEY, DEPENDING AGAIN ON THE ENVIRONMENT AS HAS BEEN STATED.

IT'S THE LANGUAGE OF HIP HOP, IT'S THE LANGUAGE OF RESISTANCE.

AND A LOT OF IT IS THE ANTITHESIS OF ANTIBLACK RACISM, WHO THEY ARE AND THEREFORE FEEL LANGUAGE IS CENTRAL TO WHO THEY ARE.

SO I'VE HEARD YOUNG PEOPLE AGAIN ON THE JOB, SOME OF THESE ARE SERVICE POSITIONS, SOME OF THESE ARE JOBS JUST STARTING OFF.

THE PROBLEM BECOMES THE -- AT LEAST AS FAR AS I SEE IT, IS WHEN THE N WORD BECOMES ALL PART OF THAT LANGUAGE.

WHEN YOU DON'T CODE-SWITCH ON THE JOB, AND THE LANGUAGE THAT YOU'RE USING WITH FRIENDS YOU'RE USING IN MIXED COMPANY AS WELL.

THAT IS TO SAY AMONG PEOPLE OF VARIOUS RACES INCLUDING WHITE PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU FEEL THAT IS AN AUTHENTIC WAY OF PRESENTING YOURSELF.

BUT IT'S PROBLEMATIC THE FROM MY VIEWPOINT AND FOR ANYONE WHO IS FIGHTING AGAINST RACISM.

BUT I THINK BY AND LARGE AGAIN IT IS A STATEMENT OF ANTI, ANTI-BLACK OR IT'S BASICALLY YOUNG PEOPLE PUSHING BACK AGAINST ANTI-BLACK RACISM AND SAYING THIS IS WHO I AM, MY AUTHENTIC SEFLT.

SELF.

WE'VE ARRIVED AT A DIFFERENT POINT, CODE SWITCHING FIRST USED IN THE 1950s.

>> Collins: AUTHENTIC OR OPENLY BLACK IT'S GREAT AND I'M ALSO SUPPORTIVE OF IT.

BUT SUSAN AS YOU LOOK AT TRYING TO BE OPENLY BLACK IN SAY THE WORKPLACE, IS THAT STILL A REALISTIC OPTION FOR NOT JUST YOUNG PEOPLE BUT SOMEBODY OLDER, SOMEBODY BASICALLY TRYING TO SUPPORT A FAMILY, SOMEBODY WHO IS TRYING TO EARN A LIVING, UP THE CORPORATE.LADDER, AND WHEN IT COMES TO CODE SWITCHING?

>> I THINK THERE ARE BENEFITS AND CONSEQUENCES OF BEING ABLE TO DOAD SWITCH IN THE -- CODE SWITCH IN THE WORKPLACE.

I THINK PHILIP SAID, WHERE IT WAS REQUIRED BEFORE, WHERE YOU WERE ALWAYS CODE-SWITCHING WHEN YOU CLOCKED IN YOU PUT THAT CODE-SWITCHING ON AND YOU DIDN'T TAKE IT OFF UNTIL YOU LEFT AT THE END OF THEñr DAY.

VISUAL, THINKING ABOUT HAIR, DRESS, ALL OF THE SORTS OF WAYS THAT WE SHOW UP LIKE THAT.

I THINK IT USED TO BE MUCH MORE COMPULSORY AND I THINK AS PEOPLE ARE PUSHING BACK AGAINST THAT AND SHOWING UP AS THEMSELVES, YOU'RE MAKING SPACE FOR IT.

BUT TO YOUR POINT ABOUT CLIMBING UP THE CORPORATE LADDER, IT STILL SEEMS LIKE IT'S IMPORTANT TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK IN A WAY THAT PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO HEAR.

AND SO WE STILL ARE WAITING FOR THE REVOLUTION AT THE TOP FOR PEOPLE TO SHOW UP FULLY AS THEMSELVES.

AND I THINK ALSO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE WORKPLACE, WE PUT ON A CERTAIN WORK PERSON WHARVETION PERSONA WHEN WE HOPE UP AND I THINK CODE SWITCHING IS A PART OF THAT.

SOME PEOPLE THEY WANT TO KEEP THAT DLAITION, WHEREDELINEATION, WHEN WE CODE SWITCH IN THE WORKPLACE.

>> Collins: I THINK I.T.

WAS SO OINTERESTING, DUBOIS DID HIS STUDIES BACK IN THE EARLY 1900S AND WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT THIS.

WE HAVEN'T MADE A TON OF PROGRESS.

YOU COULD ARGUE, PHILLIP HAS MADE THE POINT, OVER THE LAST FIVE OR SO YEARS THERE HAVE BEEN SOME MOVEMENT IN THOSE CIRCLES.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW CORPORATE AMERICA WORKS, HOW WHITE AMERICA WORKS, THOSE AT THE TOP STILL DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE TYPICALLY WITH OPEN BLACKNESS.

SO UNTIL THAT CHANGES, AS WE KIND OF CIRCLE THROUGH AND YOUNGER PEOPLE BECOME OLDER PEOPLE BECOME PEOPLE OF POWER AND SIGNIFICANCE AND PROMINENCE, DR. CUNNINGHAM I DON'T SEE MUCH CHANGE DMOMG OUR LIFETIME.

>> YEAH -- COMING IN OUR LIFETIME.

>> WHAT SUSAN MENTIONED IF YOU THINK OF WHO IS AT THE TOP RIGHT?

THE HIGHER YOU GO THE LESS BLACK FOLKS ARE WITH YOU RIGHT?

SO THERE MIGHT BE A GREATER REQUIREMENT TO SHOW UP DIFFERENTLY.

AND SO IN SOME WAYS YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT, LIKE DR. BATISTE MENTIONED, WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES.

AND AS YOU MOVE UP, IN THE CORPORATE LADDER, THERE MIGHT BE GREATER CONSEQUENCES.

I LOVE THE WORK OF A COLLEAGUE OF MINE, DR. CANDACE McKOHL WHO TALKS ABOUT THE WAY WE HAVE TO NAVIGATE FEAR AND RISK ASSOCIATED WITH CHALLENGING CERTAIN SYSTEMS, MAKING THE DECISION TO BE OPENLY BLACK DOES OFTENTIMES REFLECT ANTIBLACK RACISM, SYSTEMIC AND INSTITUTIONAL RACISM.

IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT DECISION, ONE DOES HAVE TO SAY AM I WILLING TO MAKE THE RISK?

AND DR. HARKINS TALKED ABOUT DIFFERENT TYPES OF RISK.

WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT OUR LIFE OUR LIVELIHOOD AND OUR LUXURY.

IS MY LIFE GOING TO BE THREATENED, AM I ABLE TO BE ALIVE, THRIVE IN SOME WAYS.

I THINK THOSE ARE DECISIONS EACH OF US HAVE TO MAKE WITH REGARDS TO OUR WILLINGNESS AND THE APPEAL OF ABILITY TO BE OPENLY BLACK, AND AGAIN I THINK THAT CAN SHIFT BASED OFF THE CONTEXT IN ONE POSITIONALITY IN THE PARTICULAR SYSTEM.

>> Collins: CHECK OUT THIS SCENE FROM ARE THE FILM, "THE HATE U GIVE," THE CHARACTER, STARR CARTER, PLAYED BY AMANDLA STENBERG, "THE HATE U GIVE," BREAKS DOWN CODE-SWITCHING WHILE ATTENDING A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE PREP SCHOOL.

TAKE A LINCH.

>> GARDEN HEIGHTS IS ONE WORLD, WILLIAMSON IS ANOTHER.

I GOT TO KEEP IT SEPARATE.

SO WHEN I'M HERE I'M STAR VERSION 2.

THAT MEANS FLIPPING A SWITCH IN MY BRAIN, WILLIAMSON'S STAR DOESN'T USE, IF A WRACHER WOULD SAY IT, SHE DOESN'T, EVEN IF HER FRIENDS DO.

SLANG MAKES THEM COOL.

SLANG MAKES ME HOOD.

>> THOSE KIDS ARE LIT.

>> SPACE JAMS.

WMGSON'S STAR IS APPROACHABLE.

NO STANK GUYS ARE ABOUT YELLING BECAUSE WILLIAMSON NONCONFRONTATIONAL.

BASICALLY, WILLIAMSON STAR DOESN'T GIVE ANYONE A REASON TO CALL HER GHETTO.

AND I HATE MYSELF FOR DOING IT.

>> Collins: SOME OF THOSE INTERACTIONS THAT STAR WAS ENDURING OR GOING THROUGH IT HITS HOME FOR ME AS MY KIDS GO DO AÑi PREDOMINANTLY WHITE PREP SCHOOL.

AND IT'S NOT JUST THAT, YOU KNOW, HOW THEY AREÑi PERCEIVED BUT IT'S EVERYTHING.

IT'S THEIR HAIR, IT'S PEOPLE PLAYING WITH THEIR HAIR WHO NOT NECESSARILY USED TO HAIR WITH BEADS OR BRAIDS IN IT.

SO YOU'RE DEALING WITH THOSE THINGS ALL THE TIME.

BUT YOU LOOK AT THE BOTTOM LINE, THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE BOTTOM LINE.

MY KIDS HAVE BEEN IN THAT SCHOOL SYSTEM OR THAT PRIVATE SCHOOL SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN PREK.

SO EVEN THOUGH THEY LOOK VERY DIFFERENT THAN EVERYBODY ELSE, THEY'RE TREATED A CERTAIN WAY.

BUT IN THE END OF THE DAY THEY'RE STILL BLACK.

SO CODE SWITCHING HAS TO, IT HAS TO GO ON JANE.

ñy WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF IT HAS TO GO ON BUT IT IS ONE OF THE WAYS THAT PEOPLE INTERACT WITH ONE ANOTHER.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THIS IT'S ABOUT NAVIGATING POWER DWAMTION AND WHAT STAR IS TALKING ABOUT THERE ISN'T THAT SHE CAN'T DO THOSE THINGS BUT THERE IS A POWER COST ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE.

AND WHETHER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HIGH SCHOOLS OR CORPORATE AMERICA OR EVEN SOCIAL SITUATIONS I THINK THAT THERE IS A COST, TO NOT CODE-SWITCHING AND THERE'S ALSO A COST TO CODE-SWITCHING AS SHE TALKS ABOUT THERE.

HAVING TO HOLD THAT DUAL CONSCIOUSNESS IS REALLY CHALLENGING AND IT MEANS YOU SAY NOTHING OR YOU SAY YES AT TIMES YOU WOULD LIKE TO SAY NO.

SO I THINK THERE'S A REALLY SERIOUS END OF THE CONTINUUM THERE AND THEN I THINK AT THE OTHER END OF THE CONTINUUM WE CAN THINK ABOUT THIS AS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE LEARN REALLY EARLY ON THAT ALLOWS THEM TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE WORLD.

SO HOW YOU NAVIGATE YOUR CODE SWITCHING WITHIN YOURSELF, HOW YOU MAKE SENSE AND MEANING OF IT TO YOURSELF, I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT AS WELL.

KINDS OF AN LMENTD OF SELF-CARE IN THE SENSE OF CODE SWITCHING.

>> Collins: GOING BACK TO WHAT I SAID, Içó THINK IT HAS TO BE DONE.

IT HAS TO BE SAID, PHILLIP YOUçó CAN ANSWER THAT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU'RE TRYING TO GET YOUR KIDS INTO A COLLEGE OF THEIR CHOICE.

WHEN THEY WALK INTO THE ADMISSION OFFICER'S OFFICE, THEY ARE EXPECTED TO ACT A CERTAIN WAY, THE WAY THEY HAVE BEEN TRAINED IN THE SCHOOL TO ACT WHICH SUPPOSEDLY HAS THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM RIGHT?

>> TO SOME DEGREE.

I THINK THERE'S A MEDIATION TO THAT TYPE OF FORMULA IF YOU WILL.

THERE ARE PROMINENT EXAMPLES THAT SERVE AS IMPORTANT EXAMPLES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TRYING TO NAVIGATE THESE SYSTEMS.

YOU TALK ABOUT NEA DENNIS, THE VERY EXCITING GYM ASS.

NAST.

SHE IS WE'VE SEEN HER ON DOING SOME EXTRAORDINARY WORK LATESLY.

THEN THERE ARE POLITICIANS LIKE AYANNA PRESSLEY WHO IS OPENLY BLACK.

OBVIOUSLY SHE AND A HALF GATES BETWEEN VARIOUS WORLDS AND NO DOUBT WHAT WE SAY AT HOME OR IN THE COURT FOR THAT MATTER, IS GOING TO VARY, VERY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE MIGHT SAY IN THE HAMS OF CONGRESS.

OR AT UCLA OR HARVARD OR SOME OTHER UNIVERSITY.

BUT I THINK THERE'S ALSO SOME LEVEL OF MEDIATION IF YOU WILL THAT'S COME ABOUT AS AGAIN THE RESULT OF THE ASSERTIVENESS OF BLACKNESS.

IN THE CONTEXT OF ANTIBLACK RACISM.

PUSHING BACK HEARTILY AGAINST THIS GARGANTUAN FORCE THAT'S SHAPED AMERICAN LIFE SINCE 1619.

AND I THINK YOU DO -- YOU HEAR IT IN THIS PARTICULAR SCENE THAT WE JUST SAW.

I'M NOT SURE WHEN IT WAS MADE.

I THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE QUITE DIFFERENTLY IN THE SUMMER OF 2020, THAN WHEN THIS FILM FIRST APPEARED.

AND I THINK THAT THAT CONSCIOUSNESS IS SHAPING OR RESHAPING THIS THING WE KNOW AS CODE-SWITCHING.

IT'S STILL THERE AND IT'S GOING TO BE THERE FOR A WHILE.

BUT I THINK IT IS -- THERE IS A LEVEL OF -- THERE IS A LEVEL OF IF YOU WILL REMEDIATION THAT'S OCCURRED IN THAT CONTEXT.

>> Collins: SO IS THAT LEVEL SUSTAINABLE?

BECAUSE AGAIN WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT PLACE TODAY IN 2021 THAN WE WERE LET'S SAY THREE OR FOUR YEARS AGO.

>> THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO WILL NEVER APOLOGIZE SO IT HAS TO BE SUSTAINABLE TO SOME DEGREE.

JOY REED OF MSNBC YOU KNOW ASSERTIVELY BLACK, SHE'S NOT GOING BACK.

BLACK LIVES MATTER IS OUT THERE, REGARDLESS OF THOSE WHO ARE MILL TAITDING AGAINST IT.

AND TRYING TO NULLIFY IT AND NEGATE IT.

AND SO THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE -- THAT WILL CONTINUE TO BE OUT THERE AND THERE WILL BE FORCES THAT WILL BASICALLY TRY TO REIN IT IN.

CODE SWITCHING IS A FORM OF SURVIVAL.

I THINK IT WAS VERY DIFFERENT THAN IT WAS IN THE 60s, 70S, FROM DECADES AGO PUT IT THAT WAY OR FOR THAT MATTER, YEARS AGO.

>> Collins: DR. BATISTE IF YOU COULD FOLLOW UP ON THAT.

IN THE WORLD I'VE LIVED IN MY ENTIRE LIFE, MY ENTIRE PROFESSIONAL LIFE, I'VE NEVER HAD REALLY UNTIL THIS JOB I'VE NEVER EVEN HAD A BLACK PRODUCER.

THROUGH ALL THE STATIONS I'VE BEEN THERE AND WORK IN FINANCE, I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYONE, I'VE NEVER SEEN ONE OR TWO PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF MYSELF OF COLOR IN HUGE OFFICES IN THE WORLD OF FINANCE.

SO YOU KNOW WHEN WE HAVE DISCUSSIONS AMONGST OURSELVES, CODE SWITCHING HAS BECOME INEVITABLE A PART OF HOW WE GET THESE POSITIONS.

HOW WE KIND OF FIT IN, OR GET ALONG.

AND I'M NOT SURE I SEE THAT EVER CHANGING.

>> I HOPE IT CHANGES.

I MEAN, I LOVE THAT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE BRINGING THEMSELVES TO THE TABLE.

MORE FULLY.

AND I LOVE THAT THE ENVIRONMENT THAT WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW ALLOWS PEOPLE TO DO THAT.

I LOVE THE USE OF THIS TERM OPENLY BLACK FOR YOUNG PEOPLE.

IT ALLOWS THEM, AS I SAY IT OFTEN, TO ENTER INTO THEIR OWN CONSCIOUSNESS FIRST IN A PRIMARY PLACE AND POSITION WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT CODE-SWITCHING AS A NECESSITY BUT, A MARTINIQUAN PHILOSOPHER, WHEN HE TALKED ABOUT IN BLACK SKINS WHITE MASK, THE LOOK OF THE WHITE GAZE IS A DESTRUCTIVE ONE AND HE DESCRIBES BEING ON A BUS AND A CHILD SAYING LOOK A NEGRO TO HIS MOTHER SO JUST HIS BLACK PRESENCE CHANGES THE ENVIRONMENT THAT HE'S IN.

AND THEN THE CHILD SAYS, MAMA, THE NEGRO IS GOING TO EAT ME.

SO IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF LOOKING.

THERE'S A CONSEQUENCE OF KIND OF WHITE FEAR, A WHITE SUPREMACIST GAZE, WE'RE STILL IN CONFLICT WITH.

AND THE WORLD HAS TO CHANGE.

WE CAN'T ALWAYS CONSIDER CHANGING OURSELVES TO FIT THE WORLD.

AND LET'S THINK ABOUT THE THINGS WE LOSE WHEN BLACK PEOPLE DON'T EXPRESS THEMSELVES FULLY.

I MEAN WE'RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT ACCENT AND SYNTAX.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IN THE FILM FOR AN EXAMPLE.

THE YOUNG CHILD CHANGES THE WAY SHE MOVES HER HEAD.

SHE CHANGES THE WAY SHE MOVES HER SHOULDERS.

SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GESTURE ATTITUDE, BLACK LANGUAGE IS FUNDAMENTALLY IRONIC, SATIRICAL, THERE ARE ALL TYPES OF LINGUISTIC AND VERBAL GAMES WE PLAY.

THERE ARE SOME OF THE AREAS THAT THE PUBLIC SPHERE LOSES, THAT PHILLIP MARTIN REMINDS US HERE IS BRINGING BACK INTO COMMUNICATION IN HER PUBLIC POSITION.

AND SO I THINK THAT THERE'S A BOLDNESS THAT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE DEMONSTRATING.

THERE'S ALSO A WAY IN WHICH THE ENVIRONMENT THAT WE ENTER HAVE TO ALSO BE TRANSFORMED.

WE CAN'T JUST ALWAYS BE TRANSFORMING OURSELVES.

AND PART OF BRINGING YOURSELF FULLY TO THE TABLE IS REALLY ABOUT PUTTING PEOPLE ON NOTICE.

IT'S REALLY ABOUT SAYING THE RULES ARE CHANGING.

THE GAME IS CHANGING.

I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY.

AND YOU HAVE TO FIX YOUR EARS TO BE ABLE TO HEAR ME.

I HAVE TO SAY THAT MOST OF THE STUDENTS THAT I ENCOUNTER IN MY CLASSES, BLACK OR WHITE, INDIAN, MEXICAN, HAVE NEVER HAD A BLACK PROFESSOR.

RIGHT?

SO EVEN HEARING LESSONS ABOUT BLACK LIFE, BLACK HISTORY, RADICAL POLITICS, FROM A BLACK PERSON, IS SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE TO ADJUST THEIR EARS TO.

AND I THINK THE REST OF THE WORLD HAS TO DO THAT.

>> Collins: YOU LOOK AT JOY REED, YOU KNOW, LET'S SAY TEN YEARS AGO, SHE COULDN'T HAVE WORN HER HAIR THE WAY SHE WEARS IT NOW.

SHE WEARS IT ALL NATURAL.

IT'S ENCOURAGED NOW.

COMING UP IN A NEWSROOM A DECADE AGO THERE IS NO WAY YOU COULD HAVE EVEN GOTTEN IN THE NEWSROOM, LET ALONE GOTTEN ON CAMERA.

THOSE PEOPLE LIKE JOY REED WHO HAVE PROMINENCE WHO HAVE SOME SAY, WHO HAVE SOME CLOUT, IT'S AMAZING BUT WHETHER WE ASK YOUNG PEOPLE TO KIND OF STAND UP AND DO THE SAME AS THEY ARE TRYING TO GET STARTED IN LIFE ARE WE BEING FAIR TO THEM DR. CUNNINGHAM?

>> WELL I AGREE WITH DR. BATISTE AND THE THING THAT SHE HAS, SOME SOMETIMES IT TAKES THOSE OF US IN LEADERSHIP, THOSE OF US WHO ARE THE PARENTS TO MODEL.

I THINK MODELING IS SUCH A HUGE THING.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE TO, LIKE DR. BATISTE SAID, A PROFESSOR, A COUNSELOR, WHEN YOU SEE CEOS FAMOUS FOLKS WHO ARE VERY PROMINENT IN POP CULTURE BEING OPENLY BLACK IN SOME WAYS CAN GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO DO THIS THICK.

I KNOW I EXPERIENCED THIS MYSELF AS A LICENSED PSYCHOLOGIST AND AS A THERAPIST.

PSYCHOLOGY IN MY TRAINING WAS VERY WHITE ACCEPT TRICK AND IT WASN'T UNTIL I HAD MY OWN HE EXPERIENCE WITH MY OWN BLACK WOMAN THERAPIST THAT I REALIZED COY ACTUALLY BRING MY BLACK AUTHENTIC STOAFL MY WORK.

AND IT -- SELF TO MY WORK.

IT WAS ALSO AN EXAMPLE.

SOMETIMES WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO BE OPENLY BLACK BECAUSE WE'VE NOT SEEN IT.

SO I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT EACH OF US, AGAIN, LOOK INTO THE RISK AND THE CONSEQUENCES THAT WE'RE WILLING TO TAKE.

AND SAY CAN I PUSH THIS?

CAN I CHALLENGE MYSELF IN A WAY AS A PARENT AS A LEADER?

THAT CAN THEN PROMOTE THIS SAYING, IN GOES THOSE WHO ARE YOUNGER THAN ME, IN LEADERSHIP OVER, AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

>> Collins: SUSAN MOST OF US FEEL KIND OF LIB RATED THAT WE'RE AT A DIFFERENT PLACE BUS ALSO SUSAN I ALMOST FEEL LIKE A LOT OF US WOULD NEED TO BE RETRAINED BECAUSE WE'VE CODE-SWITCHED FOR SO LONG.

>> THAT'S ACTUALLY AN INTERESTING POINTS.

WE GET SO USED TO IT, WE DON'T KNOW WHERE OUR OWN AUTHENTIC SELVES ENDS AND WHERE WE ARE JUST KIND OF FOLLOWING RULES THAT GO ALONG.

AND I THINK THAT CODES AND CULTURE IS FLUID OVER TIME.

BOTH IN THE WIDER WORLD THAT WE'RE A PART OF AND ALSO IN OURSELVES.

I THINK THAT WE GROW AND CHANGE OVER TIME.

SO IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO RELEARN YOUR OWN LANGUAGE, I THINK THAT THAT'S HAPPENING FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE NOW, WHERE ALMOST A YEAR INTO COVID RIGHT NOW AND I THINK THIS YEAR HAS RESHAPED US.

PARTICULARLY IN REGARDS TO RACE AND FIGHTING BACK AND STANDING UP AGAINST ANTIBLACKNESS.

SO I ANY THAT WE'RE ALL IN A POSITION NOW WHERE WE'RE RETHINKING AND RECONNECTING TO THE PARTS OF OURSELVES THAT ARE WILLING TO STAND UP AND SO I THINK THERE'S NO BETTER TIME THAN NOW TO RELEARN YOUR CODE-SWITCHING TALENTS.

>> Collins: I'LL TELL YOU WHAT THE CONVERSATIONS I HAVE WHEN I'M AT THIS STATION AND IN THIS GREEN ROOM ARE SO FAR REMOVED FROM THE CONVERSATIONS I'VE HAD FOR THE LAST 20, 30 YEARS, IN SOME OF THE OTHER STATIONS THAT I'VE WORKED FOR AND I'LL TELL YOU I'LL GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD, PHILLIP AND TO ME THAT'S REFRESHING AND POSITIVE.

>> IT IS REFRESHING.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT TREMAINE LEE, A REPORTER ALSO WITH NBC AND MSNBC.

I'VE KNOWN TREMAINE FOR A WHILE.

WE WERE A PART OF THIS REENACTMENT OF THE FREEDOM RIDERS IN 2011.

WHAT I'VE NOTED ABOUT HIM AND THIS IS RELEVANT TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THE PLANNING HE USES ON AIR DOESN'T CHANGE FROM THE LANGUAGE HE USES IN THE GREEN ROOM.

IT DOESN'T CHANGE FROM THE LANGUAGE -- IT CHANGES A BIT FROM THE PLANNING ON THE COURT BUT NOT THAT MUCH.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS A SIDE OF PROGRESS.

A YOUNG REPORTER, SOMETHING WHO BASICALLY IS INCULCATED IN BLACK HISTORY AND THE LESSONS OF BLACK HISTORY, AND I THINK THAT WE'RE SEEING, AS MY COLLEAGUES HERE HAVE SAID TODAY, I THINK WE'RE SEEING CHANGES.

WE'RE GOING TO -- SOME OF THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO CONTINUE OF COURSE.

THEY'RE GOING TO PERSIST IN TERMS OF THE WAY PEOPLE DRESS, THE WAY PEOPLE SPEAK AND THE CHANGES THAT OCCURÑi FROM JOB TO JOB.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK WE'RE ALSO SEEING A COMFORT LEVEL, AT ONCE BLACKNESS, YOU, WE, ARE ALL EXAMPLES OF THAT.

I THINK WE ARE IF I CAN SPEAK FOR THE GROUP I THINK WE'VE ALL BECOME COMFORTABLE, MORE COMFORTABLE AS OF -- >> Collins: WELL SAID PHILLIP.

APPRECIATE THAT.

ALL RIGHT THIS IS THE END OF OUR BROADCAST AND THE END THANKS TO ALL OF OUR GUESTS AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

SEE YOU THERE, EVERYBODY!

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