(bright music) - Hello and welcome.

I'm Kylie Ambu, the inclusion reporter with WGVU.

And I just wanna say, thank you so much for joining us for what's sure to be an insightful and engaging conversation.

This event really stems out of our programs, Shaping Narratives and Color Out Here which play an important role in really amplifying BIPOC voices, stories, and representation, as well as advancing justice inclusion and anti-racism in our society.

In this case, we're talking outdoor recreation and environmental stewardship.

Here to lead our conversation is Alice Jasper, a multiracial Black sustainability professional, and outdoor enthusiast.

Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York.

She relocated and put down roots right here in Grand Rapids.

Today, she serves as the program director for the People First Economy, a statewide economic development initiative that centers social and environmental sustainability and convenes Michigan's B Corp certified business community.

Alice is also the creator and host of our WGVU and PBS program Color Out Here, which explores the opportunities and barriers to inclusion faced by BIPOC communities in the outdoors.

Today, Alice will be talking with James Edward Mills, a freelance journalist and an independent media producer, who in a career that spans get this more than 20 years specializes in sharing stories about outdoor recreation, environmental conservation, acts of charitable giving, and practices of sustainable living.

You can find his work in publications, like National Geographic, The Guardian, Outside Magazine, and more.

His newest book is titled, "The Adventure Gap Changing the Face of the Outdoors."

Also joining us is Alexis Hermiz, who serves as the Department of Natural Resources Diversity Equity and Inclusion officer.

She coordinates efforts towards improving diversity within the DNR's user base and workforce developing strategies to educate and fulfill the state's directives on non-discrimination.

Alexis also serve of the department liaison for the Michigan Women's Commission, Civil Rights Commission, and Department of Civil Rights on matters involving equity and inclusion.

All right-y, it's sure to be a great conversation.

Alice, I'll let you take it from here.

- Great.

Thanks so much, Kylie.

And thank you so much, James, and Alexis, for joining me today to have some some cool conversations about the roles that Black people, and Black indigenous, and people of color have played in our parks historical narratives.

So appreciate you both being here.

- Great.

Thank you very much for having us.

- Yeah.

Thanks for having us.

This is exciting.

- Yeah.

Cool.

So I'm hoping that maybe we got some, Kylie gave a couple of bios for y'all, but I'd love to kind of pass the mic over to each of you and just maybe hear a little bit more about the scope of work that you do.

And some things that you're maybe working on that you're really excited about.

So James, we can start with you.

- Well, first of all, Alice, thank you so much for having me.

Alexis, good to see you again.

I'm James Edward Mills, and I'm a freelance journalist and independent media producer.

I'm based in Madison, Wisconsin, which is the native homeland of the Ho-Chunk of people, and I basically am a storyteller.

I have a specialty in covering issues of not only outdoor recreation and environmental conservation, but also issues of diversity equity inclusion in the management of public land and access to nature.

And much of what I do is try to construct modern narratives based on some of the historic realities of the roles that people of color have played in the protection and preservation of our wild spaces, going all the way back to the time long before the founding of the United States of America.

Also, including the important roles that indigenous people play in the preservation of our public land.

- Great.

Thank you, James.

And Alexis, could you share a little bit?

- Yeah.

So happy to be here Alice.

And a little bit more about my role as the diversity officer in Michigan Department and Natural Resources.

I really helped to lead our efforts at the department, operationalizing equity in our work.

So the work we do with our public and our constituents along with land and to our workforce.

And the change in demographics that are coming and that we're experiencing, and making sure that we are a department that's pushing that relevancy in making sure we foster inclusive spaces in our state and on our public land.

So some of the pieces we oversee is ultimately look into making sure that our recruitment and hiring processes are inclusive for our employees around the retention piece that we have events and trainings and education.

Providing resources to our staff, making sure that when people come into our spaces or providing services to our public, that they can be authentically themselves and know how to promote spaces of inclusion for our users to be themselves in these public spaces.

And so that's a little bit about that piece.

I oversee some of the work we're doing around policies and procedures internally, helping to make sure that we are promoting accessibility.

We also are leaning intentionally for our programs and partnerships and external engagement, making sure folks who have historically not been at the table are having seats pulled up and making sure that we are leaning into their voices and helping to create space for them to tell their stories as well.

So that's leaning into maybe not as traditional recreation as we've seen in the past and making sure we have spaces where those recreation opportunities are visible, and folks are visible, and safe, and represented in the outdoors.

And so everything from multi-language materials to signage and making sure that folks feel safe is a priority.

And so it's a little bit about the work that we're doing at the department, building out our staff to make sure we're representative of the state of Michigan.

- Awesome.

Thanks so much to both of you for sharing a little bit more with us.

So for a lot of people, public land has and such as state and national parks, those are spaces that serve as kind of the primary locations for people to connect with nature.

And I'm certainly happy to say that we're beginning to see a lot more representation of people in the outdoors, a lot more kind of shared stories about the ways that folks are building, either continuing to build their relationships with nature, or they're just starting on that journey, and kind of learning what to your point, Alexis, what works for them.

How do we kind of expand the definition of outdoors-y to, 'cause I think a lot of people have different ways that they connect with nature, but maybe don't define it in an outdoors-y type of way.

So, but you know, we do know that there are, there's a really long history of the ways that Black indigenous and people of color, Black people have impacted our state and national parks.

And I know that both of you have been doing a lot of work to kind of amplify some of those narratives specifically.

And so I was wondering if we could take a few minutes to hear from both of you on some of the work that you've done to, and things that you've maybe learned more recently or you've known about, but work that you've been doing to kind of elevate those historical narratives, and the ways that Black indigenous and people of color had sort of shaped history in our outdoor spaces, particularly in our kind of public land spaces.

So Alexis, would you mind kicking us off with that?

- Yeah, so I'm glad you asked this question because for me, and I started at the Department of Natural Resources way back when I was a student assistant, and undergrad in Michigan State University.

And I think a big thing that I learned was about the Michigan Civilian Conservation Corps.

And that actually was back in the '30s, it was rolled out as a Michigan Civilian Conservation Corps.

And in Michigan, the CCC camps, a lot of these were in national and state forests.

And this is really for, this was an initiative, a federal initiative where men were signed up to go to these camps across the country to do really like environmental stewardship.

And in Michigan, a lot of folks actually just kind of got shipped around throughout the state to do general park management, maintenance, they planted seedlings in some of the forest that needed to be reforested, fought forest fires, they built roads, trails, and even picnic shelters and did park improvements that we still are seeing today.

They even help create spaces around like what lot management and preparation for educational purposes and wildlife research project that touched some of our national parks, specifically Isle Royale.

So there's a rich history there when it comes to the Michigan Civilian Conservation Corps.

But of course I think a more recent history for I learned was that a lot of the civilian conservation camps were not integrated.

And so oftentimes we don't talk about the Civilian Conservation Corps camps that were for all Black folks.

And the first one was I think the 670th, and that got created it in April of 1933, and so that was in camp Mack Lake near Mio.

And I learned that a couple years ago and I thought that was really interesting.

And after that more Civilian Conservation Corps camps came for Black individuals to help promote stewardship in the environment and also really be in these spaces.

And then of course after that, there were camps created for indigenous folks as well to participate in that program.

And I think that's a really interesting part when we're talking about our state and federal public land and the history of it, because when we think of historically like who managed the land, or who tended to the land after it was kind of broken up into these states and these territories, and how are we doing work around conservation.

A lot of that history is still very white, still very male, but a lot of Black folks and a lot of people of color help contribute to the land and steward the environment in these parks that we still actively recreate and take up space in today.

The other thing that I wanna highlight is that the Michigan Department and Natural Resources were committed to the protection of obviously our public land, but then also our cultural resources, so our natural and cultural resources.

So a lot of folks don't know that the Michigan Historical Center is within our department.

And so within and the Michigan Historical Center, some of those pieces, they have a Michigan freedom trail commission, and that was founded in 1998 as Public Act 409 to really protect, preserve, and promote the legacy of the underground railroad in the anti-slavery movement in Michigan.

And so even now that is a commission that's housed and managed through that Michigan Historical Center.

And they have resources and do work around freedom map sites in the state of Michigan, they oversee that interactive map that also the historical markers sites and preservation programs there.

And so I do wanna just highlight that because those are some unique pieces.

Every time we tell people at the Department of Natural Resources, we have the historical center there, people get surprised, but we definitely have those pieces and add it into the historical component of that as well.

In a state of Michigan, a lot of folks don't know that the Tuskegee Airmen have a rich history in the state of Michigan, and also kind of lauding on our Michigan Historical Center.

Recently, our state maritime archeologists, Wayne Lusardi, worked with a group of stakeholders down in Huron to recover a plane that went down and in Lake Huron.

And so that happened this past summer and there was video and there was lots of coverage on it.

And they worked with the Black scuba divers association to kind of get that piece recovered and put together.

And there was a monument that was, or ceremony and a monument that was put together.

But yeah, the Tuskegee Airmen actually trained in Michigan, and I think historically have had about 15 training accidents in the great lakes, but that's something folks don't know.

And there's, we had a lot more time, I would try to bring somebody on to give a lot more information about it.

I think it's really cool.

And I know James and I have connected over it in the past year or so.

It's exciting, But historically, Michigan has a really great history when we're talking about Black folks and people of color, and just that history and how it plays into our national and our national and public lands and our state lands.

And just really that history is important to know, because again, historically, don't think that we've been in these spaces and we've been there.

And so it really leans into the importance of amplifying these stories and these narratives to really share What's been kinda lost historically.

- Yeah, thank you so much, Alexis, those are some really cool stories and just kind of things that some of it I had heard a little bit about in the past, but I definitely just learned more, so I really appreciate you sharing all of that.

It kind of reminds me of, I think it's Rebecca Solnit's definition of place, where she talks about kind of the braided narratives or the intersection of what qualifies as historical narratives of our ecology, just how we look at place, culture, all the different things that kind of make one place unique.

And I think it's definitely a part of, as we want to venture out more, thinking more broadly about the different ways that we can define place right.

Yeah, you don't even sometimes might not even realize that maybe a park or a monument is named after one person, but all these other things happened there where I'm coming to you from Grand Rapids, Michigan, which is Chippewa, Ottawa, and Potawatomi ancestral land, and how does that kind of intersect with these narratives?

And so, yeah, thank you for kind of sharing more.

And so I can learn and other folks can learn a little bit more about the places that we're spending time and... And yeah, James, I'd love to hear a little bit from you on some of the things that you've been working on and kind of narratives that you've been working to amplify that.

Maybe not as many folks know or would incorporate into sort of the mainstream historical narratives that we generally hear about with regards to our state and national parks.

- I'm really happy to have this conversation because the historic narrative of public land management of our national parks is a narrative that had begun as a very integrated enterprise.

When we stop and we think about what the creation of our national parks system began as when the first designated national parks at Yosemite, and Yellowstone, and Sequoia were established, the federal government actually sent the US army to protect and patrol those areas.

In 1903, Theodore Roosevelt sent a detachment of 400 US cavalry soldiers to Yosemite in order to protect it.

And it's not widely known that those 400 soldiers were members of the all Black detachment of the 9th and 10th Cavalry unit known as the Buffalo Soldiers.

And they literally helped to create many of the traditions of public land management that we have today.

They established the first campgrounds, they patrolled four poachers, they put out forest fires, they built trails.

Some of those trails are actually still there today, including the first road that leads to the base, and ultimately the summit of Mount Whitney, the highest peak in the lower 48 United States.

And what's remarkable is that the Buffalo Soldiers can honestly be described as the nation's first park rangers.

And so we have this wonderful story of environmental stewardship at the very beginning of the movement for federally protected public land.

But the sad thing is that within a generation, in fact, less than a decade, we have the resurgence of Jim Crow segregation, so that in 1916, when the National Park Service was signed into law, under the administration of Woodrow Wilson, the same policies of racial discrimination, ultimately defined as the Jim Crow era were relegated into the national park system.

So that those same Buffalo Soldiers who protected and patrolled Yosemite as members of the US Cavalry couldn't return to the national parks to become park rangers as civilians.

And that was true from 1916 all the way up until 1953.

And it's within that period that we have the division of whether or not people of color can actively participate in outdoor recreation or environmental conservation as stewards of public land.

And as it happens though, those traditions had always been there.

For example, if you take a look at the area in Kentucky, known as Mammoth Cave, that was a site that was probably America's very first tourist attraction.

In from the late 1830s, the very first explorers were enslaved people.

A man by the name of Stephen Bishop was responsible for the exploration and the naming of features and led guided tours through Mammoth Cave from the 1830s, all the way up through the beginning of the Civil War.

In fact, you have the entire creation of the romantic period of abolition and of the environmental renaissance that is part of the enlightenment, and Black people were there.

And ironically though, by 1941, when Mammoth Cave was deemed to become the 26th national park, that all ended, because Black people could not become park rangers.

So four generations of stewards of the environment were literally removed from Mammoth Cave, and then were required to then become ordinary citizens and could not become park rangers.

And it's not until the advent of the second World War where we have members of the Tuskegee Airmen, for example, who perform so valiantly to become part of the US army that research that Alexis is doing now in Michigan is demonstrating to us that Black people were there and they've always been there.

And it's because of the integration of the armed forces and ultimately the introduction of Black people into programs like the Civilian Conservation Corps, like the other aspects of the ability to protect our public land that we have a reintroduction of people of color back into the narrative.

So that by 1953, after the second World War, when you have the reintegration of people of color into public service by 1963, you finally get the very first Black park rangers.

And so a gentleman by the name of Robert Stanton became one of the very first park rangers to be introduced to the national park at Grand Teton.

And he ultimately had a long career in national park management.

And in 1998, he became the very first Black director of the National Park Service.

So when we stop and we take a look at the history of the management of public land, Black Americans have always been part of the narrative.

And it's only when we take the time to kind of crack open the narrative and look for these stories that we're actually able to see a really long and frankly exciting history of the roles that African-Americans have played in the protection and preservation of public land from the very beginning all the way up to the present day.

- Great.

Thank you so much.

There's so much, like so many rich narratives there.

And as Alexis said before, I think I wish this is definitely a conversation that I could have for much longer than we have time for today, but thank you for sharing so many things.

I know both of you kind of briefly mentioned some of the initiatives that you're currently working on, on your own or through your organizations to uplift these narratives.

But I'm wondering if you, maybe James, we could start with you just taking a few minutes to talk about some of the ways that you're currently helping more people to kind of learn about all the work that's been done by Black people in these spaces and outdoors and in our parks.

- Sure.

Well, as it happens, we're in the middle of February and this is Black History Month.

And I now have a tradition through my media service, The Joy Trip Project, to devote national Black History Month to stories of Black Americans, and the roles that they played in our national parks.

And I quite literally start from the island of Saint Croix with the landing of Christopher Columbus.

Not very many people know that the pilot of the Santa Maria was a Spaniard of African descent by the name of Pedro Alonso Niño.

So Black American history actually starts on day one of American history.

And as we track those narratives, we can actually see that Black people were part of the early Spanish conquest that they were actually part of the earliest era of colonization in North America that the very first person to give his life the cause of American freedom was a free Black man by the name of Crispus Attucks, who was killed in the Boston massacre.

And his history is actually told through the interpretive narrative of the National Park Service.

We are able to take a look at the historic narratives of things like the Dred Scott decision, which was adjudicated, on at what is now gateway national monument in Saint Louis, there's a fabulous statute of dedicated to him.

We just celebrated the birthday of Frederick Douglas, who was not only a amazing order, but he was personally responsible for the recruitment of hundreds of thousands of Black men to become members of the Union Army that ultimately helped to win the Civil War.

It's these narratives that we can actually tell about the roles of people of color have played when we take a look for example, at an enslaved demand by the name of York, who was part of the Lewis and Clark expedition, who quite literally helped to pave the way of Western expansion from the Western territories of the newly designated United States all the way to the Pacific Ocean.

All these stories unfold more and more as we realize that African-Americans, again, have been part of this narrative literally from the very beginning.

And the work that I'm doing now in partnership with National Geographic is to tell these stories, not just through the narratives, but also the physical locations.

Taking a look at the historic homes of people like Charles Young, the third African-American and graduated from West Point, but the first Black superintendent of a national park, he was the superintendent of Sequoia National Park in the early 1900s.

You know, being able to take a look at a man like Charles Crenshaw, who is a member of the Tuskegee Airmen who became a climber in the Pacific Northwest of Washington state to ultimately become the first Black American to make it to the summit of Denali, the highest peak in North America, now a designated national park in the state of Alaska.

And what's really fascinating about that story is that Crenshaw made it to the summit of Denali on July 9th, 1964.

Seven days earlier, Martin Luther king Junior oversaw the signing of the civil rights amendment.

Quite literally, personifying the dream that he defined in the I Have a Dream speech in the March on Washington, where he encouraged people to aspire to the mountaintop so that we basically take the analogy of high mountains, whether we're talking about mountains in California or Colorado or Alaska, this man as a African-American, who seven days earlier was living in a country where he could not vote in certain places in this country, quite literally went into what is now a national park to exercise that freedom.

And I think that if we can continue to tell those stories, we'll ultimately inspire generations of people to do similar things, not only in this country but around the world.

- Absolutely.

Yeah.

Thank you, James.

Alexis, what are some of the things that you are currently doing maybe with the Michigan DNR to help to elevate and amplify these narratives for more people to learn about?

- So I just wanna say, wow, because I'm just sitting here taking in so much from James and I learned a little bit about the Kentucky, like the Mammoth Caves and the history around the interpretation there.

Recently, I just watched a clip on it, like, I think like this last week about it.

So you're just saying this, "I'm like, man."

There's so much when we talk about these institutions, whether we're looking at our federal partners or our state organizations, and there's so much historically that we have to reckon with and understand to be able to move forward and to authentically engage with folks who have been disconnected from these lands for so long, and underrepresented, and then in a space of, to be quite honest, lack of safety, to more addressing in some of these pieces if we're keeping it real.

And I think in part of the work that helped to lead at the department around diversity, equity, and inclusion, it's really that authenticity piece that's there.

And we talk about telling the stories and making sure people know the history.

How are we telling the stories?

And are we speaking for folks, are we hoping to create the spaces for folks to tell their own stories, right?

And we at the Department of Natural Resources and we're talking about operationalized and equity, and making sure we're looking at systems change, and these pieces that have taken a very long time to get put in place, but now we're trying to identify things that we can replace them with to make sure that we're more inclusive and we have to be very strategic about it.

And so when we're talking about education, and history, and telling those narratives is making sure that we are intentionally engaging with partners and folks who are doing the work to really just help create this, to help give them the space to tell their stories.

And so actually we're doing a project right now.

One of our public information office, one of our communications reps, she put together this really great project that's there to help amplify narratives.

And so this year we'll be featuring BIPOC folks, folks with disabilities, and really just amplifying folks from very diverse backgrounds to tell their stories and around their connection with the land and our state and public lands.

And their history with enjoying the outdoors and recreation from their lens.

Really just bringing in that vast perspective that we really wanna see, we know that's out there, right?

When we talk historically like these, these people are out there, there are folks who've been have a long history of hunting with their families, or have been going camping or whatnot.

And I will say one of the things that I had to address, and actually continue to address in our department, sometimes I get asked like, "How come people of color and Black folks, how come they don't?

How come they don't do this?

How come you don't see them?

We don't do that."

And I'm like, actually we do, we do, we're out there.

We are out there hunting, we're fishing, we're trapping, we're walking on trails, we are present, it's just that historically, people haven't stopped to take the pictures.

We haven't published them, right?

Or they've been, we have to just be more intentional.

So part of our work along with that cool project, that's kind of up around us, amplifying the narratives of folks in the out of doors is just making sure that our promotional materials are representative, right?

We're working right now to get multi-language materials up and running because we know not all of our users speak English as a first language so some of those pieces are there.

We're talking about making sure people feel safe and represented.

These are the pieces that are there.

Our promotional materials are welcome signs in different languages.

How are the maps?

How are restrooms identify?

we're working on those pieces to help people just feel safe and when they are in these spaces.

But in terms of that narrative, we have to tell the work that we do.

And so we're leaning in and making sure that we capture those pieces and blast them out obviously with our social media and making sure we're more intentional with that.

But again, like making sure we're connecting into partners to tell the stories about what we do.

I know before we came on, we talked about Ice Fest and hosting a Michigan Ice Fest that I just came back from last week.

And helping to, you know, we hosted a reception to really just connect in with folks, it was a group of folks from Detroit, just to come in and learn about their experience on the ice, and how they felt about the trip up, and just really being on the ground to be able to communicate with folks and let people know that the department is there to take their feedback around our public plans and to really get their perspectives, 'cause it helps us shape our programs.

It helps us make decisions around how we manage and what we've prioritize around recreation.

And so it's really important to elevate those voices and narratives.

- Yeah, thank you so much.

100% agree.

I love some of the work that you both referenced that you're doing.

Can you, I guess Alexis, how do you feel like, you touched on this a little bit, but how do you feel like amplifying these historical narratives in particular?

How do you feel like that is going to help drive representation and inclusivity?

Yeah, how do you feel like that's gonna drive things forward?

- Yeah, so amplifying the historical narratives is important.

Like I said, learning about the Civilian Conservation Corps, and the Tuskegee Airmen, and some of those pieces, is just really tying it to the out of doors and it's really tying it to Michigan's history.

It's important for folks to know that these stories are out there, especially for our younger kids.

And we're talking about tapping into our education groups where we have a large external engagement push, and we're tapping into our youth and telling the stories, shifting the maybe traditional stories we tell about, the history of Michigan and how conservation has evolved in the state.

It's important to make sure we include those narratives right from a representation standpoint, you all know representation matters.

And we wanna make sure that those lenses are widen and that we're able to tell that story and reference that information.

And I know our Michigan Historical Center does like a marvelous job at documenting and making sure those pieces are relevant and on our website and promoting those stories, and actually get into the groups as they have visitors and whatnot and put in together exhibits at our Michigan History Center for folks to come through and be able to tap into the wealth of knowledge that they pull together for folks to take in.

So it definitely hits in a different, in multitude of ways, but us making sure that those stories are told are important and building on that, right?

When you know that that history is there, how do you build on it, now you know that your folks were there, right?

People who looked like you were there.

How do you build on that for people to see themselves in it from a recreation perspective or even from a career perspective, right?

They did that, maybe I wanna climb a mountain, right?

Maybe I wanna fly a plane.

Maybe I wanna go out and be a steward of the environment.

And it's important to build that early.

- Yeah.

Thank you.

James, any additional thoughts on that?

- I couldn't possibly agree more with what Alexis just shared because I know that for myself, personally, that representation can have a profound effect on a person's life.

I had spent my entire professional career as an outdoors person.

I spent my entire life enjoying recreation, especially in the state of California where I'm originally from.

I heard about the Buffalo Soldiers and their role in protecting Yosemite for the first time in my mid-40s.

And for my entire life, I assumed I was the first, or among the first generation of people to be part of this narrative, only to realize that my experience in the outdoors had history heritage and legacy that went back 100 years and more.

And it really wasn't until I was able to uncrack those hard shells of ignorance and lack of awareness, minimal representation that I realized that I had a different role to play.

And it caused me and my work as a journalist to ask more questions.

Right up to, and including in my own family.

I mean, I did not know that in, when my parents got married in 1953, they honeymoon in Yosemite.

Okay, the park had just been desegregated the year before.

So they were there in the very beginning.

But I never thought to ask until I started looking into these stories to find out what was going on during that time.

And I really think that if we can do a better job of making sure that everyone sees themselves as part of the narrative, they will indeed do everything that they can to protect and preserve the places where these narrative unfolded.

In whether we're talking about mountains or deserts or the great lakes or mighty rivers, this is where stewardship starts with that direct intimate relationship with the story that you are a part of.

- Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely reminds me of a piece from the Color Out Here, the documentary episode that we did, where one of our co-adventurers David Martin, who's an academic, he's a PhD, and we went to Idlewild, and were learning about some of the history there.

And he was almost frustrated that seeing some of the plaques there that outline the roles that Black people did to kind of establish the community in Idlewild, He was almost frustrated that he was just hearing about it for the first time.

And he was born and raised in Grand Rapids, I believe.

And Idlewild is only a little over an hour away from GR and he's spent his whole career in academia.

And to just now be kind of learning about these narratives that really laid the foundation for many Black people in many different spaces, including but not limited to the community that Idlewild still hold space for today.

Light bulbs go off and also you're like, "Why am I just now learning about this?"

Like, how do we kind of pull some of these narratives further into focus for folks to learn from because representation certainly is important.

And I think that, Alexis you mentioned earlier, there's kind of a stigma and assumption that Black people don't do outdoors-y things, but as you both said, clearly, that's not true.

There's a lot of really powerful stories here that I think can do a lot of good if more people have access to learning about them.

Next up on our route is to the home of Doctor Daniel Hale Williams, who was among Idlewild first residents, and was one of the country's leading surgeons in the late 19th century.

So why does this piss you off, David?

- I don't know, man.

Maybe it's because I went through the PhD process, and I know what it means to become a doctor and how hard that is.

And this man did this in a time where I don't know, like, it was hard for me to finish my doctorate.

I can't imagine what it was like for him to do it- - In the 1800s.

- You know, he's born in 1856, at 58 became a doctor, founded a hospital to train Black nurses and doctors.

And in the state of Michigan, helped found this place.

I went to school here almost my whole life and never learned about Doctor Williams ever.

- Well, he was also appointed surgeon in chief by President Grover Cleveland too.

And he's not, I didn't know about that, that wasn't in history, but they do the same thing to Black people as they do to natives.

They do the same things to natives, as they do to Black people.

And they omit the good things about us in the history, 'cause they're the ones writing the history, right?

We have to write our own history now because those are, like, he was an excellent role model for young minorities, right?

And they don't know about him.

- I always said Americans have a unique way of ignoring material fact in history and this is kind of it.

- Yeah, it seems like they're a big part of this community is bringing people together.

And that in a way is how you grew up knowing some of this history is because of those events and that intentionality to gather and share stories and share history.

And that's a huge part of it because, especially when we're not the ones writing our history, so we have to get together to make sure that those stories are being shared and passed down and hopefully eventually becoming more- - And shows the importance of why we need to run the spaces that we're in or have more power to control.

- [Alice] Exactly.

- Absolutely.

- And you don't have a stay in the space that you're within you can't create what's here.

- [Alice] Exactly.

- In native law, we always consider the fact that every issue that we do not claim sovereignty on, we're losing it.

- I like that.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

Thank you both for the work that you're doing to kind of elevate those stories.

And you know, before we kind of wrap up here, I did wanna touch a little bit on what does the future look like?

I think there's so many people who are making history now today and there are a lot more resources that we have at our fingertips to kind of tell our stories now with social media and internet and digital versions of various publications where those stories can be shared a little bit more easily than folks in the past might not have had the same opportunities to share 'cause they didn't have Facebook until recently.

So, but I'm thinking about how we move forward, what kind of advice or suggestions would you give or what kind of things are you currently working on to tell stories so that in the future when folks look back the ways that not just Black people but indigenous people, people of color are impacting and kind of shaping these spaces and stewarding these spaces.

How can we make sure that those stories today are a bigger part of tomorrow's kind of historical narrative 'cause I think back to last year we had the three of us all got together with a group of really amazing folks to go ice climbing in Pictured Rocks National Park.

And James, you did a really great kind of article in that National Geographic to tell that story, and the value of kind of bringing folks together and building community that way.

I think that's a really great example of ways that we can start to kind of build those into what will someday be kind of the mainstream historical narrative, right?

But I'm wondering if either of you had any thoughts on ways that we, other opportunities that we can continue to do that or other organizations that want to make sure that they're kind of laying the foundation to make sure these stories are better heard and better learned moving forward.

- I think it's really important that we continue to tell stories of firsts, and those monumental experiences.

For example, last year, a Black woman from Duluth, Minnesota, named Emily Ford, walked from the Door Peninsula in Wisconsin, throughout the state of Wisconsin all the way to the Saint Croix Falls near the Mississippi River, almost back to where she started from.

A distance of 1,200 miles through Wisconsin winter, okay?

There wasn't a single day she was on trail that was above zero, and she did this amazing walk.

And I was very fortunate to be part of a small documentary film that told her story.

And that story now becomes part of the lexicon of who spends time in nature.

You know, because here we have the very first Black woman to do this.

In fact, the very first person of color to do this.

And a lot of people tell me, "Oh, well, what's the big deal?

What's the big deal?"

Well, the big deal is that there is a time in our history where there are communities that she walked through, that she couldn't walk through after dark as a Black person.

That there was a time when there were no people who have done this before who look like her, okay?

So we need to make sure that we mark the passage of the first, because once there were none.

And it's really not going to be until we do a better job of telling those stories of the first people who overcame the limitations of historically imposed segregation, discrimination, I'm just gonna say it, racism.

Where people of color were directly deprived of their opportunities to peacefully and safely spend time in nature.

And we need to make it our jobs, it is mine, to tell these stories to make sure that when history is told, it includes the narratives that are too often underrepresented.

- Yeah.

Awesome.

Thank you, James.

Alexis, any other thoughts you wanna share?

- Yeah, I really love like what James lifted up in terms of the story of first.

And it made me think around some of the obstacles you talked about and I think it's important to still talk about the challenges and make sure that we're amplifying that so people know, and we put it out there.

We understand that there are barriers that we're still knocking down, right?

We've talked about Civil Rights Act, and policies, and some of these other pieces but perception and even places still in some of our communities where we may not even feel the safest recreated.

And so it's important to talk about those barriers and how groups and individuals are overcoming them, know how they're reclaiming their spaces and showing up sometimes when it doesn't feel as safe, and how we're doing that.

So, James said it so eloquently, but really telling those stories and providing resources for folks.

I know, as an individual working in a larger organization, we wanna make sure that we're not always, again, trying to, we're not always in the front of it, if that makes any sense.

We don't have to broker those right, we're there to help, and honestly assist folks.

We wanna help create spaces for these groups to come in and do what they do best and maybe make some connections, or help them with lodging, or help them with safe places to bring their 20, 30 groups of high school students or middle school students up for their first time camping.

So we talk about those narratives, making sure we not only talk about the good things that come from it, but be honest about the barriers and those obstacles, but maybe resources and ways that we can help navigate.

And I know that's for us, a big thing that we're trying to lift up is how can we help, again, knowing that we have so many implications from the past, so how we move for intentionally and authentically so we can see more diversity of folks recreating throughout the state.

- Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Thank you both for sharing that.

I think there's...

I'm looking forward to like watching this again when we're done 'cause I feel like there's so many things that I wanna unpack and kind of do more research on, and some of the things that you've shared that I learned here today.

And I think, to your point, Alexis, it's really important that we're being honest about those experiences and what the challenges still are, so that we can start to assess ways to kind of dismantle any barriers that do exist.

And you know, what you were saying, James, about also documenting those first, right?

I think that's another, yet another barrier for people who especially who have been kind of prevented from, or have had fewer opportunities to engage in building relationships to nature and the outdoors and recreating or conservation.

There's a sense of you mostly only see people who have expertise in these spaces, who have always been doing it, and that's almost kind of another type of representation.

Like let's, that vulnerability of trying and learning something for the first time, and kind of learning it with other folks around.

It's okay to be learning that.

And I think normalizing that conversation of like, this is the first time I tried it, and I was really awkward at it but it was great, and I might try it again or maybe I won't.

But that strain of the narrative too, I think is really important to kind of amplify for folks moving forward who maybe have a little bit of curiosity, but to help kind of nurture that and make folks be comfortable and at least taking that first step in trying which of course doesn't minimize all the other barriers that I know, especially Black indigenous and people of color feel as far as feeling included and safe in the outdoors, especially rural spaces.

But even if we can just kind of address that, that piece about feeling confident in trying something new or removing some of those that intimidation factor, I think is really valuable.

So thank you both so much.

This has been, like I said, a really, really awesome conversation.

I really appreciate the work that both of you are doing and everything that you're willing to kind of share with us today.

I think it's definitely gonna kind of shape the way that I know I look at history and hopefully for a lot of other folks as well, so yeah.

- Okay.

Well, thank you so much for having us.

This has been a great conversation, and so wonderful to see both of you again.

- Absolutely.

Thanks so much.

I appreciate it.

- Yeah.

Cool.

Well Kylie, I will pass it over to you.

- Yeah.

Wonderful.

Well, I'm gonna hop on the thank you train as well, and just say big thanks to the three of you for coming on.

I mean, Alice, you led such a thoughtful discussion.

And James and Alexis, your insights were just so powerful.

I think everyone watching is certainly walking away with the wealth of information to move forward.

Before we walk away, though, we do have some questions that were submitted for a Q&A portion that we're hoping to get through.

So just hop in if this is a question that you think, "Oh, I want to answer that."

The first person would like to know, "Despite seeing more diversity in our state and national parks, it's not uncommon for BIPOC communities to still feel unwelcome or unsafe in the outdoors, especially in more rural areas.

Do you feel like elevating these narratives may help to play a role in creating a more safe and inclusive outdoor experience?"

- Well, the simple answer is, yes.

The more complicated question though is how do you go about doing that?

You know, because it's one thing to hear the story.

It's another thing to feel safe about yourself being part of the story.

And frankly it has two different channels that it can go through.

Number one, the parks and the land managers need to make the spaces welcome.

As Alexis had alluded to, by having signage in multiple languages, by having interpretive displays that tell stories about the people of color who are part of the creation of that site.

To be able to make it so that people can see themselves as not only being welcome to be there today, but to acknowledge the roles that people who look like them had played for years before.

Now on the flip side, too.

As a person of color, when you don't see that, when you don't feel that, you need to go anyway.

And I think that there's something to be said for us to empower each other.

With the notion of safety and numbers.

With the ability to have the skills and expertise that we need to be safe and comfortable, whether it's technical clothing or equipment or expertise and skills like starting fires and the principles that leave no trace in how to set up a tent and how to stay warm in a sleeping bag.

These are things that we need to take a certain amount of stewardship and ownership of our own.

So that if we can come at it from both of those areas, I think that we can have a place in the environment where people can feel safe and welcome to be part of the stewardship that we're all gonna need to make sure that these spaces get protected for generations to come.

- And Alice, I saw you kind of snapping your fingers when we were talking about unity.

Do you wanna add anything to the discussion?

- Yeah.

I mean, I think myself and Alexis and James, we all have some experience in kind of helping to put together trips for Black and indigenous and people of color to get out.

And whether it's going backpacking, or ice climbing, or all sorts of things.

And I think that, I know that I have some of my own personal experiences of discomfort, but it's also hearing and learning from other people's experiences where they felt maybe unsafe traveling through rural areas, or they didn't feel confident in their ability to dress appropriately for the activity or the weather what have you.

And hearing those narratives more broadly shared helps to inform ways to curate trips for folks who have maybe had fewer opportunities or have less interest or not feel safe or included in being outside.

We have a better sense of how can we mitigate as much of those barriers or discomfort as possible, whether that be like let's get a bus to bring folks up to the UPs, so that they don't have any discomfort when they're pulling over for gas in a very, very rural part of Michigan.

They're also in groups, there's more confidence, and I think a sense of joy that also comes from being able to build that relationship with nature authentically in ways that's relevant to your culture and to your community.

So all of these kind of narratives that are out there that share both the good and the challenging of being outside, help to inform ways that we can more effectively build more accessible and equitable pathways into outdoor spaces and help to kind of remove some of the things that might deter folks from wanting to get outside.

- Absolutely.

Great points made there.

Alexis, did you have anything you'd like to add?

- You know, I think they summed it up quite well.

- [Kylie] Yeah.

- And just there's so much to be said about our personal experiences and just really, I just wanna lean in into the part we're talking about safety numbers and coordinating groups and coming up there.

Sometimes those are the best experiences to be able to lean in and build that comfort.

And I'll be honest, I've had experience personally.

I actually had one not too long ago in terms of experiences of discomfort.

And as a leader in the space, I'm also trying to ensure that my staff and my team are safe as well.

And so having a, you know, so to process those things through is really important, especially when you're running programs or overseeing individuals or groups that are coming up, you wanna make sure that they have all the tools that they need to feel safe and to have a great time in the outdoors.

So I think they answered it well is really important.

It should be at the forefront when we're talking about bringing folks into any new experience is really making sure that comfort is there.

- Mm-hmm.

Certainly.

Our next viewer wants to know, "I've been thinking about what amplifying looks like in practice.

So how it's done and how that changes when its focus is turned toward BIPOC communities and voices.

What I'm really interested in is both the ways and the tactics.

So who creates this?

How is it created?

And with what kind of resources?

- Yeah, I'll hop in there, especially because some of the work that we're doing at the department, it's really leaning in on that, right?

This is kind of a unfamiliar space for us if I'm being honest, but we wanna make sure we do it authentically and we make sure that we do it right.

And especially when we're talking about working with folks who have been underrepresented, we have to make sure that we are aware of the communications.

So I know for folks who are trying to make contacts into different communities, working on projects and whatnot, and make sure I'm doing introductions.

I'm making sure that the folks who I'm connecting are culturally competent, especially from our organizational lens, they understand the community lens or the background of that individual prior to making that connection.

If I'm being honest, I wanna make sure that that person knows what they're doing, and they know how to communicate well with individuals or groups.

And then also on projects.

I think one thing we've been very conscious about is making sure when we're going to organizations, especially as a large state organization or entity, that we aren't putting so much pressure on organizations to do things for us.

And so making sure that there's a mutual exchange of understanding, but then also resources.

I always say, we are not about to go to these folks and ask them to do stuff for us for free, that is just not gonna happen, right?

And especially these groups have been disconnected for so long.

And some are, I mean, are doing historically, if we're, if we're being honest.

And so making sure that if we're asking folks to lend their time, to write a piece, or to share their photos and give us authorization to share their stories, that we're making sure that we're offering them compensation or we're making sure that we're competitive in that space or that safety and that visibility that their own and in that work.

And so it is consistent work because we know that these things evolve, and these relationships evolve.

And I say this with my staff all the time, because we are hiring more diversity coordinators.

If we don't got it, we don't got it, right?

And so we need to make sure we do the work to build what we don't have.

And so relationship building is incredibly important.

And so just to cold call somebody and ask you, I just want you to "Hey, Alice, like, I don't really know you like that, but I heard your name.

Can you do this for me?

I'll underpay you."

You know, that is not good practice.

And so as an organization, we wanna make sure we can carry those best practices forth, so we can, again, in that authentic space, give folks like Alice, and like James, and other folks who are telling me stories, make sure that they have the spaces to tell 'em and that we aren't getting in the way of that.

- Absolutely.

James, I'm going to throw this next question out to you because I know you've talked lot about history and historical narratives here.

This person wants to know "What would change about outdoor spaces for the next generation?

Should the narratives of indigenous people and people of color be more intentionally included in mainstream historical narratives?

- Yes, absolutely, because they're there.

And I think that's the one thing that too many of us forget or assume because of the way history has been told for so long.

People of color have been deliberately and systematically taken out of our narratives, and I'm not going to ascribe intent, it's just a fact.

I mean, like when you take a look at American history, for example that one in five soldiers at the battle of Yorktown was Black, it's almost 20% of the continental army were people of color.

And within a year of the American revolution, most of those men were remanded back in a slavery.

You know, we don't talk about that.

You know, we don't talk about the Three-Fifths Compromise.

And the fact that in the Dred Scott decision of 1857, that Black Americans were denied their rights as citizens, under law, we don't talk about those things.

So if we were to tell a complete and authentic story of how we got to where we are today, I think that people will do a better job of understanding why things they are the way they are, and hopefully create ways to correct those things.

So that if we have systematic deprivation of affordable housing, for example, of course you're going to have poor impoverished neighborhoods.

Of course you're gonna have underperforming schools.

Of course, you're going to have minimal community investment which ultimately creates a downward spiral of poverty.

If we were to correct those things, based on our historical knowledge, we can have a much better future because we will indeed have a society that's more representative of all people who are part of that society.

So in answer to the question, yes, if we tell more complete historic narrative that is inclusive the contributions of all people will define a future for ourselves that will be inclusive of the interest and needs of everyone.

And how can that not make for a much better society.

- Absolutely.

And I think that plays into a big part of the conversation that you have all contributed to today, and kind of bringing up some of those historical narratives and how they do affect to this day.

Our last question here, so feel free to jump in, is "As many of us know, all of our outdoor recreation and stewardship practices are taking place on stolen land.

How can non-indigenous people of color work to build in dignity to the relationships that they're building with nature?"

- It might have been indigeneity.

- Oh, I'm so sorry.

- No, that's okay.

Yeah, I think indigeneity, that's a really important piece, right, 'cause we are on stolen land.

And I think that there have been indigenous people, native Americans have been working and stewarding this land for much, much longer than America has existed.

And how do we work on opportunities to kind of learn best practices based on what has been done by native Americans for so long.

And I think that there's great things that have come up in more recent iterations of conservation work.

But making sure that we're also incorporating indigeneity into our practices as we're, especially, some of us who are just beginning to build our relationship to nature or engage in outdoor recreation or an environmental stewardship.

Who are we learning from?

Who are we regarding as experts in that?

And so I feel like, I apologize, I kinda just took that question and ran away with it, but that's something that I think I'm certainly trying to learn more about is ways we can be more intentional.

I can be more intentional in asking for permission on whose land we wanna be recreating on and looking to a multitude of expertise and best practice in the work that I try to do to steward our natural resources.

- Well, I can't help, but agree.

And I think most importantly, we need to take into consideration the historic and cultural priorities of native people.

And I think that if we were to do that, we would be much better off.

I mean, just taking, for example, the practice of controlled burning of forests.

Just being able to have that practice of thinning out old growth forests to eliminate the potential for ground fires that ultimately could destroy the forest or surrounding communities.

What do we do instead?

We build houses in dense forests and don't burn them.

What happens when they finally catch fire accidentally?

We lose all those homes.

So we need to really think about the successful practices of native people that go back thousands of years.

And we need to learn from those lessons and have a better relationship with the natural world.

And I honestly believe that if we were to recognize the importances of regenerative agriculture, for example.

Being able to have minimal impact grazing of animals, if we insist on having meat.

Being able to make sure that we're not dumping fertilizer with waste water to contaminate our streams and kill fish.

These are all things that native people learned to practice on this land thousands and thousands of years ago.

If we were to practice those things down with the respect that those cultures deserve, I think we'd all be much better off.

- If I can just add too, I think to your point, James, is something I like to say a lot is, it's not humans and nature, it's humans are nature.

And I think that it's not uncommon at least in America to kind of learn that as people, our relationship, or nature is something separate from us.

Like we are, like it's us, and then there's a landscape, rather than we are part of the landscape.

And I think that if we're able to kind of shift the way that we understand that connection to nature, it also kind of through that follows, I think a more holistic approach to the ways that we are conserving it and interacting with it.

- Agreed.

- Well, great points made there, Alexis, I know a lot's been said.

But since this is our last question, anything that you'd like to say?

- I just sometimes just get a little bit lost when Alice and James speak.

It's really awesome 'cause I learned so much.

And honestly those relationships are important, and especially working at a conservation agency where we have to do a lot of work with tribal entities around upkeeping are maintaining their treaty rights, and also working together around conservation and stewardship of the land is important.

So at our department we prioritize that, and there's work that consistently needs to be done to make sure that bills relationships are strong and that we are managing the land together.

And so I think that they said it best, but those relationships really really matter, especially as we move into the future of conservation.

It's important to let folks bring their culture's values and practices into this space as we move forward is incredibly important.

So I don't wanna overstate it 'cause I think they said it the best, but those relationships are key to cultivate in.

- Wonderful.

Wonderful.

And I know exactly what you mean, where you get it lost in the conversation sometimes.

I could tell, I could barely read the last question.

(all laughs) So, which thank you, Alice, for correcting me on that.

And I just wanna say thank you again to all of you for coming out tonight.

And I know that those of us who are watching are really taking home, like I said before, wealth of information.

There is always more that can be done and be learned though.

And if you are watching this and you think I wanna further my knowledge, please be sure to check out Alice's program, Color Out Here.

You can do so on our website, just head to wgvu.org.

Thanks again and hope you all have a great evening.

- Thanks so much Kylie and thank you Alexis and James.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

So good to see you both.

- Thank you.

(bright music)