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♪ ♪ Ah ah ah ♪ - Hello and welcome to Roots Race & Culture.

A new show on PBS, Utah, where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences.

Hi, I'm Danor Gerald - And I'm Lonzo Liggins.

We are gonna be discussing a very hot button topic today about the subject of colorism.

So what is colorism?

Well, why don't we start by defining what colorism actually is.

According to Merriam Webster, here is the definition of colorism.

Prejudice or discrimination against individuals with a dark skin tone, typically among people of the same ethnic or racial group.

Which makes me wonder, does having light or dark skin impact your daily life.

Is there any advantage to light or dark skin right here in Utah?

Well, let's find out.

But first let's meet our guests.

Why don't we start with you Darrienne.

- Hi, I'm Darienne Debrule.

I'm a student here at the university of Utah.

I study political science, economics and communications, and I'm actually from Utah.

So I can kind of attest to how it is in Utah.

I also am mixed race.

So I've kind of seen how colorism has played out in both family dynamics, as well as friendships and relationships.

- Man, I know how that works, Edmund.

- Hi everyone, great to be on the show.

I'm Edmund Fong, I'm a professor of political science and ethnic studies at the U of U.

A little bit about myself.

I'm not from Utah.

I'm from Oakland originally.

That's where I grew up and I've lived about a decade in New York city, but now I'm here.

- Awesome, how long have you been in Utah?

- Since 2008 when Barack Obama was elected president.

- There we go.

Coming from the O.

- Well that's an interesting time to get here.

(laughing) - I love Oakland though.

Oakland's kind of a crazy city.

- Fantastic.

- You know, we were discussing, you know, colorism that's going on on currently today in society.

And as I was doing some research for this come across a news story about this actress, her name is Sandy Newton.

I'm sure you guys have heard about it.

She recently released this apology where she talked about getting, I guess, taking roles from darker skin actresses, because she was light skinned and she had more of an advantage.

And I thought that was really interesting cause there's other...

It's been happening in the news lately.

There was another story about a movie, where they were talking about what, it was the Lin-Manuel Miranda.

- Lin-Manuel Miranda.

So he did this movie called "In the Heights", very successful film.

And it's about this Afro Latin community in New York where you've spent a lot of your life.

And in that particular community, people are darker skinned.

They're Afro Latin, right?

But in the movie, all of these lead characters were played by light skinned actors.

Just like what Sandy has been being accused of.

So there was a lot of backlash from people in that community saying that it's not an authentic representation of who they are.

And so people are becoming really, really sensitive to this topic.

And so we wanna hear your perspectives on this as well.

Now you say that you're from Utah and you've seen colorism play out out in your family.

Is that with your sisters, explain that to us.

- Yeah, so actually I'm most dominantly with my sisters.

So me and my two sisters, we're all mixed race, but we're all a very different complexion.

My youngest sister is what people would classify as dark skin and my middle sister is white passing.

And then I'm kind of in between and just even seeing their experiences growing up in comparison to mine, I've seen that my middle sister, she doesn't deal with as much racism or hardship when it comes to race just because she is white passing.

People assume that she's white until they see her really curly hair.

But my youngest sister she's actually had to deal with a lot of problems regarding racism and kids talking about her skin color and saying she doesn't belong because she is so dark.

And so people are more aware of her differences if that makes sense.

- Wow, are you guys close together in age?

- We're not close in age.

So I'm 21 and then she's 12 and nine.

- Oh wow, so you're not there to back 'em up and help out in this situation.

- I'm not there to back them up.

So I can kind of talk to them about it.

And I remember even sitting down with my mom and I told her that my youngest sister is gonna have the hardest time when it comes to race issues.

My mom didn't really understand.

But then as I did my research on colorism and she read my papers, she was like, oh, I see what you mean now.

- Yeah, especially when it comes to dating.

We'll get into that in a minute.

So how about you Edmund?

- Professor Fong, in the Asian culture, how does the lightness or darkness of your skin tone affect people's lives?

- Yeah, well colorism is a huge issue, you know, across Asia.

You know, here in the United States I mean, it it's so, you know, intertwined with racism so that, you know, I think for Asian American communities, there's more prevalence less so on skin tone than on just, you know, other features or, you know, around aspirational whiteness or whatnot.

- Oh, okay, okay so- - What is aspirational whiteness?

- Define that.

- Well, that's a kind of fancy term that academics throw around, jargony term, but yeah, basically, you know, sort of aspiring to standards whether they be skin tone or other sort of features or other sort of cultural norms that are associated with, you know, whites.

- Okay, so now do you see this in your family at all?

Do people tend to want to have lighter skin?

Where do you fall in that?

- Well, so I would sort of situate myself somewhere in the middle in terms of skin tone variations.

And I think there isn't a whole lot of variation within my immediate family around skin tone.

So we didn't really have, or I can't really say that that was by itself a really strong feature, but certainly race did sort of shape kind of, you know, our environments growing up, me and my sister, right.

Where we're sort of impacted by caught in that picking order, if you will, of those who are more able to pass it with the cool kids, you know, all that stuff and dating as well so.

- Okay, well, I'd like to hear from either one of you about the dating thing now, so.

- Let me jump in on that train too.

We'll talk about dating.

- How?

- You benefit cause you're light skin.

- Maybe, maybe.

- Okay.

- We'll get into that discussion.

Let's start with you.

I wanna hear your experience with dating.

- So my experience with dating in Utah was kind of different.

There's just not a lot of black men and the black men that are here they do tend to like white women, cause that's why they're socialized around you can't fault people for wanting what they're socialized with.

But when I came to college, something that stood out to me and I will say that I do benefit from colorism in this way and that I'm mixed.

So technically I'm what most black men would want.

They want a mixed race woman or a light-skinned black woman.

And I remember I would talk to some of my guy friends and they'd be like, I would never date a dark-skinned woman cause I don't want my kids to be dark-skinned.

- Ooh, men - Really?

- Yes, - Yeah, that's that's, - And I was like, first of all that's not it's not probably something you should say, but I think it speaks to something of how there's such a self hatred within the African American community of having dark skin.

And they know the struggles that come with having darker skin and they don't wanna give that to their children.

So by being with somebody that's white or being with somebody that's light skin, the probability of their children having lighter skin is higher.

- Wow, now tell us about dating in your experience or in the Asian culture.

Do you guys have some of those same issues?

- I mean, you know, for younger generations, Asian Americans, there's probably not that much skin tone sort of in terms of dating preferences, but it's something you see with older generations immigrant, you know, like every time I go back to, you know, the Bay Area, I have some aunties who always note how I've gotten darker since being here in Utah because we're exposed to UV radiation and they'll say, oh, you've gotten so dark and there's not a positive connotation around that.

- See, I've seen like when I go to stores, I'll see these lightning creams, particularly in the Asian markets.

- Yeah.

- So I'll go and get it somewhere cause I'll get blotches sometimes.

- It's over an $8 billion industry.

- What.

- So see, that's the thing.

- That's Korea, China, where is all this money?

- That's Korea, China, Philippines, India.

Yeah, pretty much all all across Malaysia, all across Asia.

- So there's a goal to be lighter.

- Yes.

- And lighter has what advantage?

Lighter means what?

- Lighter is associated with being more, having a higher status, wealthier more pure.

- Is that because it's aligned with white people?

Is that what...

This is where colorism get gets confusing to me.

Cause it seems like we all as like different races, we sort of put white people on this pedestal where they get to kind of sit at the top of this little hill and just be like you can be like us and you can be, oh, and oh, you're getting closer and you're getting closer.

And then we all kind of thrive to be like that.

And it seems like that's where this weird idea of colorism comes from.

Cause there's a history of it.

- Yeah, and I was actually gonna say, it's not just the aspiration to whiteness.

It's people that are of darker skin we're usually working outside especially in the Asian American culture.

Those were usually the plantation and field workers.

So then - Sure.

- The darker skin and tanning got associated with not having as high of a status.

And then in the African American community, it comes from slavery where skin slaves tended to be the house workers and that was considered the better slave position to be in.

And then those people also got educated.

They learned to read and write in a way that plantation workers didn't.

So then when you get into like the civil rights era or even right before the civil rights era, the black, I guess (indistinct) because they came from people that knew how to read and write, they were better able to get jobs or kind of assimilate into white society because they have, I guess, a longer lineage of education or knowing how to assimilate into White culture.

- I'm gonna show you something real quick, there's this picture that we found of these white slave.

Now here's the thing about them.

It's kinda hard to see it from here, but I'll tell you right now they look very white, but they're actually black.

They actually biracial.

And then I think one of them is what you know, would be considered a quadroon or quarter black.

And they use this picture and these would be what you would be called.

You know, we'd call the house Negros.

You and I would apparently be house Negro.

(laughing) We would apparently be house Negros.

You'd be in the field.

- I'd be working hard - But you know, they used these pictures back in the day in order to gain support for the North.

When they were trying to fight the South and say, these are the type of people that are being put into slavery, these children.

And so obviously the public viewing, these pictures of kids that appeared to be white were very sympathetic and the money started pouring in and that was one of their advertising tactic.

- That was a fundraising tactic.

- It was a fundraising tactic and it worked apparently and they (indistinct).

- Plessy versus Ferguson, this landmark Supreme court case around segregation, they chose someone who was light skinned in order to make that test case challenging segregation.

- Yeah, so this has been a tactic that's been used quite a bit.

Colorism as a way of helping to further the cause.

Even though they were, you know, all people were benefiting, they used the iconic sort of white passing (indistinct) people to help sway the vote or whatever the case may be.

- Yeah, but when you look today, right?

Like let's take for example, some of the celebrities out there today.

Can we put up, let's see Vin Diesel.

I think he's a really good example of celebrities today.

Here's Vin Diesel on the left.

Well, he's on both of them.

If you look at him there on the left, he looks pretty, you know, we don't know what race he is, right?

He never talks about his race ever.

- Right, he looks Italians.

- Right.

And he gets booked for Italian parts a lot.

And his kids on the right.

Can we put that back up there just one more time.

His kids on the right have clearly, you could tell they're curly haired and they've got black in them.

His wife is actually Hispanic.

So the black part of his kids clearly came from him, but he never really discusses that openly because there's some advantage to not discussing it.

- Right.

- Which makes you wonder, what is the advantage of not discussing race in our society?

You know, why would he not wanna talk about the black part of himself?

What do you think?

- I think because if you don't talk about the black part of yourself, you can more easily assimilate into white culture, especially with people that are white passing, because unless they explicitly say, Hey, I am black, people aren't gonna group them that way.

And so I think that goes to show that there is a disadvantage to being black and being dark skinned.

If people aren't even wanting to claim it.

And to bring up something brought earlier, you said that it's easier for I guess, voters to digest.

I honestly don't think Barack Obama would've been elected if he was of darker skin or if he wasn't as able or readily able to assimilate into white culture.

- You read my mind now- - (indistinct) Joe Biden called him clean looking.

- Oh, clean looking.

- Back in the day, yeah.

- Yeah.

(laughing) So, as a political science professor, an expert on the subject, do you think that that has some benefits as far as someone with political aspirations?

- Darker skin or lighter skin?

- Either (indistinct) - I think it's clear.

It's been extensively Studied that lighter skin tone is correlated with your chances of success as a political candidate.

- Wow.

- That's been studied, so.

- Wow.

- But you know what, that brings up another topic.

We were speaking earlier in the green room and you were talking about colorism is not just about skin tone.

It's also about features.

And to me, it seems like it's also about how you behave, you know, that's in direct correlation with white people.

Like the more you act like them the more that seems to be like kind of acceptable.

Do you know what I'm saying me?

- Yeah.

- Can you speak on that?

- And growing up in Utah, I was assimilated around a lot of white people.

So people would always be like, Oh, you're whitewashed, which I don't necessarily think is a great term because I don't necessarily think talking proper or dressing a certain way or acting a certain way means that you're whitewashed.

But that's something that a lot of people they do believe and they do see, so.

- Well, there are certain expectations.

And I wonder, as far as what you've experienced in Asian culture, do people have expectations of your Chinese enough or no, you seem a little whitewashed.

Does that happen?

- I mean, there is in Asia.

I mean, you know, I grew up in the US, but then the first time I visited Hong Kong where my family's from, my parents are from.

Yeah, I mean, there was a clear kind of stigma, you know, there's a term for it called ABC.

American born Chinese.

And it's generally again, not a positive connotation or you know, the sense is we're not authentic Chinese- - Oh, you're not Chinese enough, right?

ABC, like you're basic.

(laughing) - And then here, you know, that's, you know, being caught in between.

Here then you're sort of caught in the pecking order between white and black, you know, and often, you know, not, you know, model minority, right.

That's where that comes in, where, you know, you're still a minority, but you're, you know, quote unquote a model minority, whatever that means.

- Well, you know, that's interesting because you know, a lot of...

I hear this from Lonzo a lot that a lot of people in white society kind of look at Asians as like the perfect example of what minority people should be doing, - Which Asians, that's the thing, that's the trick with this.

- Yeah Very true.

- So there's a really trick to that, that little model minority thing.

- Tell us about that.

- Well, Skin color is a big part of that as well, right?

I mean, you know, generally sort of east Asian countries, again, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, which tend to have lighter skin tones are generally, you know, seen as are given preference as opposed to, you know, sort of more Southern based Asians, right.

Southeast Asia, what have you.

- Wow, that's fascinating.

- Well, it seems like skin tone in particular, like with people who may be light skinned, sometimes they'll use race to their advantage, for example, Halsey, okay.

You guys know who she is.

She's the singer.

Could we put up Halsey as well?

She is open.

Well, she's biracial, but people can't tell that she's biracial.

She looks white.

Right, and so people and she openly talks about being black.

It's an advantage for her.

I'm guessing it's because of the music that she's doing.

- But she could just as well do that music, Mariah Carey is the same way.

She could just as well do that music and say, look, it doesn't matter what race I'm doing.

You like my music buy my albums.

Why not?

On the flip side of that coin, is there an to having dark skin?

Is what I'm asking basically.

- Yes - I would say.

(laughing) - He said yes, there's an advantage.

(laughing) - Emphatically.

Aside from the melanin protecting us from those UV rays you talked about, (laughing) I think that there is some identity crisis that can be dealt with when you are somewhere in the middle, right?

For me, I've been black my whole life, always known that I'm black.

I don't shy away from that fact.

And I don't have that issue.

- You can't shy away from it.

- Well, no, I mean, there's plenty of like, you saw, like there's a aspirations of whiteness, right?

So, - Right, right, right.

- I mean, but there's a side of me that's really grateful that I have darker skin because it makes me feel like I have to find comfort in that.

And that there's people that I walk down the street, I look at 'em and we just give 'em the nod.

Like, I know what you're going through.

You know what I mean?

It's like it's this instant bond that shows the connection of that shared cultural experience, right?

- Right.

- That we have.

And it's curious to me, do you guys ever think that there would be an advantage, like you said, you're sort of middle ground when it comes to Asian, do you find that good, bad?

- I don't see that being a sort of positive thing in Asian, American cultures, but I mean, there is, you know, there's street creds sort of attached to kind of having darker skin, right.

- Right, there you go.

- Especially in the US, right, I think that can play to the advantage of people.

Especially people who, you know, I think want to sort of appear like they have more street cred and actually may darken their, you know, skins tone.

- Well, think about it.

Why People go and get tans and a lot of creams and it's not like Asia, they're trying to get lighter.

A lot of 'em are trying to get darker, right?

And they're trying to appear black culturally, whether their hairstyle, you know, there's one of the actresses who was it, Kanye's former- - Oh Kardashian.

- Kim Kardashian got in a lot of trouble because she did a whole photo spread where she was doing photos like these iconic black female pictures over the years, celebrities and so I think that a lot of people want to appear black as well, because it's street cred, like you said.

- Well, and to go back to your question about dating, how was it for me?

That was a challenge for me as well, because, and I'll tell you why.

And I didn't have issues when it came to white women.

We were just talking about this yesterday because I was considered to be like this gateway drug, this intro into black men, because they could just come in and just, he coined that phrase I mean I'm just (laughing) But here was the problem that I had when I would want to date a black woman, okay?

Or women that like black men, I was never black enough.

They'd always say, ah, you talk this way.

You know, and they would go, they would want the darker skin brothers.

And they would say that's the guy that I want.

When it comes to acting cause I'm an actor.

So when it comes to getting parts, Danor walks in the door and I walk in the door, he might get chosen over me because they're looking for a black actor.

They might look at me and say, well, is he black?

Is he Puerto Rican?

Is he Brazilian?

The minute they start asking that I'm out, you know, and he's in.

- Yeah.

- You know, and if they're looking for that type of thing, you know what I mean?

- Let me ask you this, have you ever been mistaken for another race or anything like that?

- Oh yeah, growing up in Oakland.

I think people, you know, people often would think I was Mexican.

- Really?

- Yeah.

- Did you work that to your advantage?

(laughing) - I don't think so.

I mean, it puzzled me at the time, but yeah.

- You missed out on some opportunity there.

(laughing) - It opened up the dating pool at least.

- Yeah, I mean getting back to what was said, yeah, I did kind of enjoy sort of playing both sides if I could, right?

So there were certain advantages of, you know, mixing in with different sort of crowds.

- That's good, yeah.

There's a definite flexibility there that allows you to have some social advantages.

- I bet we get Dominican, right?

- Well, for me, people would be like, what are you?

I remember that was a question or where are you from?

But when they ask, where are you from?

They're not asking what state I'm from they're asking - What country.

- Yeah, what country or what's your racial or ethnic background.

And I think, I mean, it's obvious that I probably have some black in me, but they're kind of trying to figure out the rest.

They're like, I don't think you're completely black.

So what else do we have going on here?

- Yeah.

- But I think that's something that when you're a lighter skin tone, that's what you deal with.

Like, obviously nobody's gonna look at you and be like, so what are you?

And if they did, you'd be like, I'm obviously black.

(laughing) - Human beings.

- Oh my gosh, I used to tell people that I finally got to the point where I was like, I'm a human and they'd be like, oh, and I'm like, yeah.

- I know there's a term that they've said about you before in the dating area.

And we're gonna talk about that.

But first speaking about colorism, we spoke to a local business owner in South Salt Lake who said, she's also experienced colorism in her life right here in Utah.

And not just within her race, she's seen it within the white community as well.

Check out this story of Tandoori Taqueria.

- (indistinct) is the tacos are my superpower.

I'm Ripple Desai, and I am from Utah.

- Now there's two locations that you guys have, right?

- Yep, one in Panguitch and one in South Salt Lake.

Everything's A Fusion between Indian and Mexican.

And we've also thrown a farm to table spin on it as well.

So I'm a texture reader and this really is where all the texture is in this taco.

A lot of crunch with the cabbage.

It's got greens and herbs in here from the garden.

in the 90s, the early 90s, we were on a family vacation.

And my parents fell in love with a business that was there, the Marianna and motel, in Panguitch.

And in February of '92, we were in Panguitch We all moved to Panguitch.

- What was that like for your family?

- It was different.

My parents are Hindu.

So it was very different for them.

There not a Hindu temple to go to, that's for sure.

Or Indian restaurants or even a grocery store to get Indian cooking ingredients.

It was just something that I took and used it to recognize my surroundings.

It shaped me into who I am today.

- So we're talking about colorism before.

What does colorism mean to you?

- So it's something that we are definitely aware of, being exposed to it in the Indian community and just hearing how people of different generations speak about it in the Indian community.

So I think being aware of it, you pick up on how different people, different white people are treated as well.

- Yeah, cause I know for me, I get treated differently by black people and by white people.

- You're not white and you're not black.

Right.

- Yeah.

- So what part of that spectrum do you fall on like- - Color wise, I'm in the middle, I'd say, but I feel like people are gonna say that I was born in the US.

So some Indians think I'm not Indian enough because I wasn't born in India.

- Hmm, interesting.

- And then some people think that, Oh, you're still so involved with your family.

You started a business.

Oh, that's very Indian.

Like you should have like branched down and done your own thing.

So you're not American enough.

So we get it from both sides.

- So there must be something about this community that you cling to because you must see some kind of hope here and some goodness about it.

- I love Utah.

I'm say like, I feel like this is everywhere.

I would love more diversity and more than anything I'd love to not be a token.

Cause I've lived in Utah most of my life - Right.

- For about 30 years.

So I'd love to see things evolve.

- How does it evolve?

How do you think we evolve it.

- By teaching people.

By letting people know it's okay to ask questions or exposure.

People need to mix and integrate in every aspect of the community.

My favorite thing is cooking for people who appreciate good food.

- Right.

- And I want my food to be healthier and lighter.

You can eat more of it.

I love tacos.

- I love tacos too.

(laughing) - Tacos and Indian food, what are crazy fusion?

- Those are good tacos by the way.

- They are really good.

- Good go check that out.

- Yeah, so I have a question for both of you as we wrap things up here.

What can we in this area and community of Utah do to help with this issue of colorism?

Do you guys have any insights or from your own perspective on that?

- Yeah, I think a big thing is to stop using terms like whitewashed or attributing how people talk or the way they interact with society as being white and just kind of seeing it as them as a person instead of, I guess, associating it with their race.

- Or not calling you exotic.

I'm sure you've had that happen.

- Okay.

Yeah, or that would help too.

Yeah, not referring to people as exotic or asking people like what are they or stuff like that.

Yeah.

- That's great.

How about you professor Fong?

- I mean, I think Utah has this reputation of being really sort of homogenous and white.

I mean, and the more we can sort of muddy that literally I think, you know, the better, right?

Cause you know, the more diverse the state it becomes, the more you see people and interact with people who are a variety of different cultures, skin tone, what have you.

The more they'll sort of challenge whatever assumptions they have about what they prefer and what they don't, right?

- That's great.

- Humanize sort of these issues.

- That's great, so are you gonna stick around for a while?

Do you like it here?

- Yeah, this is my home now.

- Excellent.

- I mean, I, like I said, I came here when Barack Obama was elected and now I've lived through the Trump years.

Hopefully the final Trump years.

- Yeah.

(laughing) (indistinct) But yeah, this is my home.

- We're lucky to have you, thank you.

- Perfect.

All right, y'all that was a fantastic discussion.

And we'd like to thank our guest Darienne Debrule and Edmund Fong.

If you all would like to get more information about our guests and see our extended interview or listen to the podcast version of the show, please go to pbsutah.org/roots.

So, until next time we are out take care of y'all.

♪ Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

♪ - [Narrator] Roots Race & Culture is made possible in part by the contributions to PBS, Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

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