- Hi everyone, Steve Adubado.

We kick off the program with a compelling and important conversation about environmental justice and related issues with Dr. Nicky Sheats, Director of the Center for Urban Environment at Kean University, affiliated with the John S. Watson Institute for Urban Policy and Research.

Dr. Sheats, great to see you.

- Good to see you.

Thank you for inviting me on to your program.

- You gotta let me also share that Kean University is one of our higher ed partners, part of our series called "Urban Matters."

You'll see the graphic come up right now.

Dr. Sheats, let me ask you this, can you define environmental justice A and B?

Why this matters so much, particularly disproportionately in urban communities?

Please.

- So let me, instead of giving you a one sentence definition, Steve, let me tell you what the three key issues are in environmental justice.

The first one is a disproportionate amount of pollution that we often find in environmental justice communities.

And when I say environmental justice communities, I mean communities of color and communities with low income.

So we often find elevated levels of pollution in these communities.

And the reason why it's so important to address this, Steve, is because it is connected to persistent, recalcitrant health disparities we find in the country that are rooted in race and income.

So that's why we need to address it.

Another issue that the grassroots environmental justice movement attempts to address is the movement tries to ensure that residents of these environmental justice communities have a say in what happens in their communities, especially when it comes to environmental issues.

And third, the movement tries to ensure that the benefits produced by improving the environment accrue in these communities just as they accrue in other communities.

- Along those lines, Dr. Sheats, describe the role of the center in this important policy discussion, debate.

It's not even a debate.

This is a critically important public policy issue, please.

- So, the Center for Urban Environment, we provide support to, I referenced Grassroots environmental justice movement.

That's a national movement.

We provide support to that movement on both a state and a national level.

When I say support, I mean on both substantive issues and in building capacity, organizational capacity of environmental justice organizations.

On the substantive side, we focus on issues that include air pollution, climate change, cumulative impacts, which means how do you address multiple sources of pollution in the neighborhood, environmental justice, legal issues.

And also, as I mentioned before, increasing the organizational capacity of EJ groups.

- Lemme also share that Dr. Sheats is a leader, not just in the state, but nationally.

He's currently a member of the White House Environmental Justice Advisory Council.

The role of that council is?

- It is to advise the Biden Administration on environmental justice issues.

- Okay, along those lines, this is what I keep thinking about.

I don't wanna be self-serving about this, but there is not a whole lot of media attention, public awareness around issues of environmental justice.

Why do you think that is?

- Well, let me start off by saying I think the amount of attention that environmental justice issues are receiving has increased.

- It has increased?

- It has increased, it has increased a lot lately.

I think traditionally why that, and I'll comment more on that in a minute.

- Sure.

- But I think traditionally why there hadn't been a lot of attention on environmental justice issues is because people think of the environment and they don't necessarily connect it to justice.

They don't necessarily connect it to civil rights issues.

And the main advocates in this space have been environmental groups who were really focused on improving the physical environment.

And then the Environmental Justice Community Movement comes alone and says, wait, we need to address issues related to race, related to income.

And we're at a point now where I think the environmental justice movement has convinced folks in the environmental movement, environmental policy makers, that environmental justice issues need to be addressed.

And now we're figuring out how to address them.

Now we're trying to develop policy to address these issues.

- Along those lines, doctor, lemme ask you this.

So I've often thought about environmental issues, environmental justice issues, broader environmental issues.

But until you see it, until you experience it, until there's a crisis with our water, until there's this gray orangey plume coming across our, wait, what is that?

What could that be?

Is it dangerous to us?

What about my children?

Let's get 'em in the house.

Translation.

Is part of the challenge here that it's not an issue that grabs the public/media's attention, mainstream media, until you see it, feel it, and it's a crisis, and then often it's too late?

- That's part of the problem.

But I would say from the environmental justice point of view, a large part of the problem also is that if you're not in environmental justice communities, you don't see it as much.

Because a lot of the pollution is confined, or at least in disproportionate amounts, in communities of color and low-income communities.

So other communities don't have to face it as much.

- So hold on.

Lemme ask you this, doc, sorry for interrupting.

- No, go ahead.

- Does that mean suburban and rural legislators who don't represent the communities you're talking about right now, have you found that statewide and also you understand nationally with Congress, other policy makers on the national level, that if it's not affecting my constituents, what do you expect me, devil's advocate, what do you expect me to do if it's not affecting my community?

That's an urban representative, or legislator's, or congress member's business.

It's not mine.

That's just not true.

- And an important point you made before, it is affecting rural communities.

Not as visibly, but yes.

I think what has happened is that, because it was a lot more visible only in communities of color and low-income communities, then folks felt they hadn't, did not need to address it.

They had a buffer.

But now we're seeing that that's not true, because now we're seeing that climate change is about to affect everybody.

So no one can hide from these issues now.

But for a long time, having disproportionate pollution in communities of color in low income communities, made it at least acceptable what was happening in other communities.

It made the system all right for other communities.

But now that's no longer happening, partly because we have the environmental justice movement that's making issues more visible in our communities.

And partly because now we have a global issue like climate change that's affecting everybody.

- Dr. Sheats, how much do you think this has to do with the challenges from a public policy point of view in terms of what government needs to do, what public policy makers from all different regions across the state and nation need to do to address issues of environmental justice disproportionately in urban communities?

How much do you think it simply has to do with race?

- I'm glad you went there.

I was gonna go there if you didn't.

- Well, is there another place to go?

I mean, tell me another place to go.

- I think it has a lot to do with race.

I personally think, some of my environmental justice colleagues may not agree with this.

I think that's a lot to do with unconscious racism.

The environmental justice movement has said for a long time that one reason why there is disproportionate pollution in Black and brown communities, and low income communities, is because the lives of people in those communities have been devalued.

And so that makes it possible then, or acceptable to larger society, to have this disproportionate pollution load in environmental justice communities.

We've been saying for a long time, with the Black Lives Movement, has been saying recently and gotten a lot of attention that the lives of Black and brown people, and low income people of all colors, has been devalued to a point where the disproportionate pollution in these communities is acceptable, and it would not be acceptable in other communities.

- Along those lines, Dr. Sheats, what would you say to those watching right now who, for whatever reason or reasons, don't think a lot about these issues, don't think of themselves as engaging in racism, institutional or otherwise.

Unconscious or conscious, or otherwise.

What would you say to folks who just say, not my issue, just not my issue, who happen not to be in urban communities, Black or brown?

White folks in suburbs, what do you say to them?

- It's two things.

It's everybody's issue, because this is a systemic issue in our country.

Race has always been, I think, maybe the hardest issue to address in our country.

And we've been trying to do it for centuries.

And we still need to keep trying to do that.

This is another manifestation of a systemic problem in our country, and it's gonna take everybody to address it.

And then when you talk about environmental issues, people need to address it because there is no wall around environmental justice communities to stop the air pollution from going to other areas.

And there's nothing that's going to prevent climate change from affecting all communities.

- So again, I happen to be in Montclair, and I'm born and raised in Newark.

Newark, just a few towns away.

So folks in Glen Ridge, little tiny town up Bloomfield Avenue, Bloomfield bordering on Newark, Belleville bordering on Newark, suburban communities.

In certain cases, more affluence than others, like Glen Ridge.

They say, not my issue.

You say, that's just now.

- That it is everybody's issue eventually, and it's happening now.

Environmental issues are gonna affect everybody.

But, you know, I think more important, Steve.

- Go ahead.

- Morally from a point of view of justice, a justice perspective, that it's everybody's issue.

We need everybody to pay attention to this issue in order to solve it.

I think they have a moral obligation to help solve this issue.

And they can't accept that lives in these other communities are being devalued.

And another practical point, I think one thing that's gonna happen, it's starting to happen now.

Since we have a grassroots environmental justice movement it's not gonna be as easy to make these communities the dumping ground for our society.

Now we have an organized movement.

These communities are standing up and saying, well, no, this is not fair.

There's no law that says all this has to go in our communities.

And if it doesn't go in these communities, then the burden, the pollution burden is gonna have to be shared by everybody too.

So it's a issue that everybody is going to have to have a piece in solving.

- And along those lines, go on the website of the center to find out more about, New Jersey actually has a landmark environmental justice law.

To find out more about it, go on the website.

Dr. Nicky Sheats is Director of the Center for Urban Environment at Kean University, affiliated with the John S. Watson Institute for Urban Policy and Research, part of our "Urban Matters" series.

Dr. Sheats, thank you so much for joining us.

We really appreciate it.

- Thank you for inviting me - You guys, stay with us.

We'll be right back.

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