-All right.

Well, let's get into it, Frank.

How's it going?

-Okay.

-Yeah.

So, your wonderful book, "Push the Wall."

I finished this week.

Had a great time reading it.

-Thank you.

-You start the story, you start the book, by telling us we need to know our ending.

When you started writing this book, did you know your ending for this book as well?

-Know my what?

-Did you know your ending for this book as well?

-Um, yeah.

Yeah.

[ Laughter ] Like I said, you got to.

-Yeah.

Have you ever written a story where you knew your ending but it kind of just changed as you were writing it?

-Oh yeah.

-Yeah?

-That happens a lot.

-Yeah.

-I just say you got to know your ending.

It doesn't mean you always got to be right about it.

[ Laughter ] But you've always got to know what you're aimed at.

What you may find is that you shoot past your ending into unknown territories... -Mm-hmm.

-...that can lead you to new and wonderful places.

A story, you must always remember, is a living thing.

It's not a precious sculpture that's a replica of something that comes from a long-gone era.

It is something that is growing within your hands, and it will surprise you just as if you have a child.

That little bugger is bound to surprise you too.

And that, I'm sure, is much of the joy of parenthood.

-When you -- How did you decide which lessons would structure the book?

You've got 16 lessons, basically, right?

-Well, they were the ones that occurred to me.

-Mm.

-Much of it grew organically because one would suggest another.

And others came from conversations with the other people who worked on the book, who discussed it with me.

And the... ...in particular my partner and, you know, collaborator Silenn Thomas, who suggested many things that people would want to know about the contents of my career and of how my mind worked at what I did.

But mostly material just suggested itself.

It was like writing a story.

-This is your first time you wrote a book, a text-only book.

Is that correct?

-Oh, yeah.

I wouldn't advise it.

[ Laughter ] -Yeah.

[ Laughs ] -And besides, if you look at it, I snuck a few drawings in there.

-Yeah.

[ Laughter ] And you told me you still draw every day, right?

-Yeah.

I would hope so.

-Yeah.

[ Chuckles ] So much of the book also -- New York feels like a character in the book as well.

It's been such a huge part of your life.

You spend several chapters paying tribute to the city that basically formed you.

What did New York teach you about storytelling?

-New York... [ Chuckles ] New York has taught me a lot of profound lessons about storytelling because New York has taught me a lot of profound lessons about life.

And there is no telling of stories without life itself.

And New York was my passage from childhood into manhood.

It was where I had my greatest triumphs, my greatest failures, and some of my greatest peril and greatest despair.

And, you know, it's... You know, fell in love, got married -- You name it.

It's -- So it's a... It's a source of endless stories to me, and it always has been.

-Mm-hmm.

Have you ever thought about what kind of artist Frank Miller would be if he never moved to New York, if he stayed in Vermont or moved anywhere else?

It's interesting, because you have a chapter about when you move to L.A.

and when you entered into Hollywood, and you describe Los Angeles in such a powerful way, too.

It is its own noir city as well.

-Oh, yes.

Oh, no.

I... I could -- It's... It didn't have to be New York.

-Mm-hmm.

-There's nothing particularly, you know, particularly magical about any one place.

And Los Angeles is a wonderfully inspiring city full of mysteries and miracles that are endless.

I love both cities.

-Mm-hmm.

You said that noir travels well.

It travels globally, you know?

Can you expand upon that?

You told me backstage -- -The more what?

-Noir, like, travels well.

Noir can be universal.

-The war?

-Noir.

The -- -Oh, noir!

Yeah.

-Noir.

Yeah.

-Well, if you look at it, the noir is a... ...it's a term coined by the French to describe a... ...a kind of American fiction that was really probably initiated as much by the English as anybody else.

So noir comes from everywhere.

-Mm-hmm.

-But noir itself came into its American form in the most vivid way in Los Angeles, in the works of Raymond Chandler and Dashiell Hammett.

-Mm-hmm.

-Other authors, like Mickey Spillane, brought it to New York.

And a whole host, including Carl Hiaasen, brought Florida, unforgettably, into the mix.

-Mm-hmm.

-But the heart of noir really is in Los Angeles.

-Yeah.

Let's get to your work.

You start with "Daredevil," but then, you know, you have a wonderful chapter about how excited you were to make "Ronin," you know?

And in the chapter you describe "Ronan" as getting away from "polishing the trophies of others" and finally making something that's your own -- Frank Miller's "Ronin."

But some of your greatest work also comes from characters that belong to other people.

What would you tell a young artist or a writer or a creative or whatever choosing between the opportunity to work on somebody else's great creation and the risk of making something entirely their own?

You know, there's a lot of anxiety over, you know, ownership of work too.

But also, hopping onto an IP can also, you know, launch a career as well.

-Note here that the interviewer just tossed my book... [ Laughter ] ...the one that I've poured my heart and soul out, to the floor like it was a piece of garbage.

I just wanted to point that out to you all.

[ Laughter ] No offense taken, sir.

-My apology.

[ Laughter continues ] -I believe you asked me a question.

-Oh, yeah.

[ Laughter ] What would you say to a young artist or writer who is having anxieties over whether to choose whether to work on someone else's work or to create their own, which is a risky endeavor?

-The first thing I would say would be to at least have enough respect for the other person's work not to heave it to the floor like it was a rat fishing.

[ Laughter ] But no.

I've worked every which way in comics.

When I first came to work in comics, the only way to get work in comics was to work on the old material.

Comics were in a pretty sorry state.

The common wisdom was that they wouldn't be continuing to publish for much longer.

And the... And so the big goal was to get regular work on one of the big superhero titles and do that until you retired.

But as time went by, the idea of creating new materials just became irresistible.

And first that took form in my run in "Daredevil," where I started creating new characters for that series.

And eventually it became a passion to create my own series, basically...out of nothing.

'Cause then I felt that for me, it would be a profound change.

Because one, I would be declaring my own authorship over my material and, beyond that, that I would be switching from embroidering and embellishing upon the work of the past and investing more directly into the future of comics and showing that I believe in them having a future.

This brought -- It came forth first in my series of "Ronin" and then in my later work, such as "Martha Washington" and "Hard Boiled" and ultimately "Sin City."

And that was where I really felt I found my legs.

-Yeah.

Sticking with "Daredevil" -- You created a new character, Elektra, which was very popular.

And then you led to the death of Elektra, which, you write in your book, led to death threats.

-Be careful with that book there.

-Yeah.

This little book right here.

-You got slippery fingers.

[ Laughter ] -My butterfingers.

Yes.

-Some people out there would like a copy.

They wouldn't just toss it around like it was worthless.

-But when you killed Elektra, it led to death threats by mail.

And you even turned some of those in to the FBI... -Yeah.

Yeah.

-...which they didn't accept because there were no envelopes available -- Marvel was throwing away the envelopes, right?

-Yeah.

Yeah.

-Can you expand on how you felt about that?

It's interesting because, like, today at the Internet, you know, a lot of artists are always getting threats of death or whatever.

And that's something you experienced before the Internet.

-You know, this was all pre-Internet.

And yes, children, there was a pre-Internet.

[ Laughter ] But at the time, being somebody who worked in a really neglected field and worked at home, you know, and did his comic books, to actually have someone respond not just with a "I didn't like this story" but with "I'm coming to get you, and we'll kill you because you murdered the woman I love" was something me at the, you know, ripe old age of -- I don't know -- 24... that I reacted with just calm, measured hysteria.

[ Laughter ] And I made contact with the FBI, and they looked it over, and they... The guy, with gentle good humor, told me that... "You know," he said, "we can't really do anything if there's not an envelope."

And he said, "Besides, I wouldn't worry too much.

The ones who kill you aren't gonna give you any warning."

[ Laughter ] -It's all in the book.

Very good book.

Trust me.

[ Laughs ] Let's get to "Batman" for a little bit, right?

-Yeah, yeah.

-One of the most interesting things about it is the book is called "Push the Wall," and what's interesting is that in your chapter about "Batman," you say that it drives you crazy that "Batman" has become its own wall, its own foundation.

-[ Laughing ] Right.

-You know?

And you describe about how you don't want the Dark Knight to be preserved in amber.

-Right.

-When did you start realizing that that was kind of happening to your work, that your work was becoming a wall in and of itself?

-Well, I think you'd all agree.

I saw mounting evidence over many years... -Yeah.

-...of, you know, of... For one thing, the title Dark Knight started appearing in all kinds of comic books.

But beyond that, he became the unpleasant superhero for a long time.

-Mm.

-But it's... Yeah, I essentially... You know, I felt that I was in the business of knocking down walls, and I felt like I'd been -- that people had used my work to construct new ones.

So I had a bit of a reaction to that.

-What advice do you have for people who might be looking at yourself as a wall, like -- Or what would you do to Batman right now if you were able to revisit the character?

Would you revert him back into the Bright Knight or Rainbow Batman, I think, you know?

[ Laughter ] -[ Laughs ] I, um... I'm not in the business of giving my stories away.

[ Laughter ] -Fair enough.

Fair enough.

You radically reimagined Batman by asking what happens when this character gets older.

You're now older than the Bruce Wayne that you depicted in "Dark Knight Returns."

-I surely am.

-Yeah.

Does Batman look different to you from this side of this age?

-Did he what?

-Does Batman look different to you now that you're on the other side of this age right now?

-Oh, no.

Because he is -- Ultimately, he's a mythic character, and I'm a human being.

-Mm-hmm.

-So Batman is profoundly ageless.

And the... And so when I work on that character, I'm thinking of him as a character along the lines of Odysseus or Robin Hood or one of those characters who defied age and defied time itself.

-Mm-hmm.

-And I don't believe in heroes, especially superheroes, as being realistic constructs.

-Mm-hmm.

-We use realism to give them meaning and to imbue them with the emotional content that makes them... ...echo within us.

But none of this is meant to be a reportage or any sort of stuff that would be... ...would really be down to earth.

-Gotcha.

When you look at comics or film or any of the art being made right now, who is pushing you, who is inspiring you or making you jealous enough to think, "I wish I thought of that"?

-Oh.

[ Light laughter ] Oh, gee whiz.

[ Laughter ] What struck me most about that question -- I heard people giggle.

[ Laughs ] [ Laughter ] I mean... [ Laughs ] ...what was funny about that question?

I mean, I'm seeing a lot of really good work coming out.

But it's coming out in different places.

There are different kinds of comics that are starting to come along.

I tend not to be looking at the same sources that I used to.

-Mm-hmm.

-And I certainly am not hunting around on stuff that came from my influence.

Because I'm grateful to have had an influence on this wonderful field... -Mm-hmm.

-...but I want to hear the new voices coming out, too.

You know, to give me hints about where we can go.

-Mm-hmm.

One of my favorite things about the book is how often you talk about your influences.

You talk about the great Will Eisner so much... -Yes.

-...and also your mentor, Neal Adams... -Yes.

-...who was a taskmaster, as you describe him.

-Yes.

Yes.

-Yeah.

And you write that you ask him, "How can I ever repay you for everything that you've done for me?"

And he told you, "You just got to do it for the next kid."

-That's right.

-Is that you basically -- Is this book basically fulfilling that promise to Neal?

-That's exactly what it is.

-Yeah.

-And that's exactly its intent, and it's created new opportunities for me to speak more freely to the new people who are coming up.

One of the real joys for me is to be looking at drawings and hearing story ideas that people are working on theirselves and to give them some advice on where to go with it and maybe not being so eager to tell everybody their story ideas, because they do got to protect themselves.

-Mm-hmm.

And you yourself have inspired so much, but you talk so much about your influences.

You talk about Bill Watterson, who made the great "Calvin and Hobbes."

-Yes.

-And Bob Dylan, who was one -- both of our favorite artists, I believe, right?

-Yes.

-Would you encourage artists to kind of look outside the medium that they're working in?

-Yeah.

-Because you talk a lot about comparing cinema and comics, like they're cousins, right?

-Yeah.

They're definitely cousins.

One is not the father of the other.

And comics themselves are a, you know... ...in a way, a strange creation that came together.

Because drawings are wonderful and because, you know, words and pictures go together to make lovely stories, and any way you want to combine these things, you can end up with something terrific.

I mean, I love animation for the same reason.

-Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You talk a lot about drawing parallels to comic-book storytelling, the pairing of visuals and words, as an ancient act of humankind, right?

-Yes.

-Yeah.

One thing I want to ask you is, 'cause you've also inspired so many people, and one person you've inspired is a friend of mine, Neil Druckmann, who created the video-game series The Last of Us, which has been adapted to an HBO show.

He has a question for you, actually.

-Uh-oh.

-I'm passing that along.

He asked, "How do you select your collaborators?

What qualities do you look for when you team up with someone to adapt your work?

How do you make sure they won't abandon the spirit of your own stories?"

-Most of my collaborations have come from... ...friendships.

-Mm.

-And most of them have come from getting to know somebody and saying, "Hey, let's work together on something," and getting a kernel of an idea that I knew would be something that both of us could feed off each other on and then fleshing it out enough so I've got something to throw to the collaborator to really get them going.

-Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

There's a whole section about how much Robert Rodriguez, the film director, had to convince you to adapt "Sin City."

-Yes.

Yes.

-And you talk about how that was particularly challenging for you because you didn't want "Sin City" to be known as a movie franchise.

-Yeah.

That's right.

-Yeah.

Can you talk a little bit about how you felt as Robert was trying to, you know, court you, so to speak?

-Well, he's a very persistent fellow.

[ Laughter ] And he... And he had a very clear idea of what he wanted the movie to be.

And after I turned him down a couple of times, he just invited me to come and visit him in Texas.

And he said, "We'll just shoot two minutes.

It'll just be a test."

And it ended up being the opening of the first "Sin City" movie, which was used intact.

And what that did was it showed me how his studio worked and how his method of filming worked, how different it was from the experiences I had on other sets and on other projects that were not of my creation and seeing the independence of creativity with which he worked and having the hands-on experience of working with actors.

It put a baited hook in my mouth that stayed there for a good long time to come.

I learned that I really loved moviemaking and enjoyed every minute of it.

-Yeah.

I was telling you how much I loved seeing "directed by Frank Miller" back in 2005.

And I felt so proud of you, even though I didn't know you, to see your name up there.

-Thank you.

-One other sentence that really struck me in this book is you talk about how, you know, comics are sometimes put aside as low art, but then you don't like that label of high art and low art.

You say there's no such thing.

There's only good art and bad art.

-That's right.

Yeah.

-How would you describe bad art?

I think a lot of people know within their heart and instinct what good art might be, but what would you describe bad art?

-Well, I like to say you know it when you see it, but I'd say bad art is... Mostly bad art is something that you've got a nasty feeling you've already seen before.

-Mm-hmm.

-That you feel that the emotions behind it are not genuine.

You feel like you're being manipulated.

Or you just plain don't think it makes any damn sense.

When you get -- Or the most dreaded word of all -- You're bored.

-[ Chuckles ] -These are things that are really -- You know, that may be the ultimate test for people who do this kind of work, is that you have to do a lot of things right to do a good job making a comic book or a movie or writing a novel.

And one of them is -- one of the main ones is you got to keep it engaging and you got to keep people, most importantly, involved in the characters and in their fates.

-Okay.

I think we have some time for Q&A as well.

So not sure how we... Anyone have any questions for Mr.

Miller?

I have a lot more, too, so... Yes, sir.

[ Man speaking indistinctly ] -Mic.

-Microphone.

-Yeah.

Let's give the man a mic, please.

[ Laughter ] -Oh.

There you go.

Right here.

-Would you tell him that?

-Hi.

I just wanted to know if there's, like, one thing you learned over the years that you were surprised you've learned with your experience but now you can't see yourself not knowing it.

-Mm.

[ Laughter ] Sure.

The biggest one is... ...when you start working out your story... ...have a pretty darn clear idea in your mind how the thing's gonna end.

Know your ending.

You know, be sure of it.

Because ultimately, every scene's gonna start aiming toward that ending or aiming away from it to deceive the reader into thinking it's going somewhere else.

You've got to be aware of that ending.

Even if somewhere down the line you change it, you've got to have that as the engine in your guts making you work for it on the story.

Another thing I'd like to add to that is... ...never lie to your reader.

Never, ever lie.

You can trick your reader.

You can confuse your reader.

But never outright lie.

Because there's a bond of trust between the author and the reader or the filmmaker and the viewer that, once broken, cannot be regained.

-Thank you.

-Sure.

[ Applause ] -Testing.

Frank, so, I know you were really close with Neal Adams, and Neal Adams could be hard to work with sometimes.

He was straight in your face.

You had mentioned early in the book that he said your work was not very good.

How did you respond to that and what made you go back the very next day and the next day to take Neal's beating?

'Cause I met him several times.

He is tough to work with.

So how did you handle that?

What motivated you to keep going back?

-What else was I gonna do?

[ Laughter ] I was gonna make comic books, and I knew that I could trust his opinion.

And I knew there was no better way to learn what I needed to learn than to be told exactly what I was doing wrong.

And so I just worked my butt off, and he taught me to research everything, to learn how everything worked.

That was something he kept saying -- that more important than learning what things look like was learning how they work, that anatomy isn't just what the shape of a muscle is or where it sits, but how it works -- how it connects to the bone, how it gets larger because of what it is doing -- and that you have to have a sense of how a car door works in order to draw it opening and closing.

And so he showed me that art was... that artists were not pretty little things that dance through the... through life simply spreading fairy dust and making pretty pictures, that artists were part and parcel of humanity and were people who understand how things work and were able to convince the reader that what they did was emotionally and physically real by giving it what we call gravitas, by giving it weight and solidity and logic.

-Thank you.

-Sure thing.

[ Applause ] -Hello.

-Hello.

-Oh.

Sorry.

[ Laughter ] -And hello to you.

-He's talking to you, sir.

Now you're not gonna talk.

Okay.

Fine.

So, your readers have seen the evolution of many characters over the years and -- [ Thud, laughter ] Sorry.

-We're all dropping stuff here today.

-What we have here is the mother of an editor.

-Is it working?

So, we have seen the evolution of many characters.

Is there a character that you feel has changed you?

-A character who has changed me?

-Yeah.

In developing that character and moving them through the course of their story, has there been a character that has impacted you as a person?

-I suppose that many of them have because it's a certain amount of self-exploration that goes on in creating the characters.

But beyond that, I can't really reveal the specific names on the grounds that that may lead to self-incrimination.

[ Laughter ] -Heard.

Thank you.

-Thank you.

-Thank you, ma'am.

[ Applause ] Go ahead, sir.

-Hey, I got a question for you.

Actually, I'm a big fan of your work.

-I pray I've got an answer.

You guys are tough tonight.

-So, what is your creative process?

Do you, like, go to, like, a place where you like you, like, soothe and calm down?

-I like what?

-You know, like, you go to, like, a cabin or something in order to, like, get away from the world?

-My creative process pretty much happens in my studio where I... But I read a lot there, and I study a lot there.

But it's... I usually start with the germ of an idea, and then I gather... Let's just call it evidence.

I gather things I want to know about my subject matter, and I start -- The more I learn about a subject -- You know, say, an ancient Greek battle or whatever -- the more opportunities arise for story points and scenes and so on to bring the whole thing into more and more vivid life.

This process is absolutely joyous, because I've found that a story is always much better than you expect it to be once you really get your hands dirty.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

[ Applause ] -I'd like to give these young folks a chance to ask a question.

Go ahead, kids.

-Hi.

-Hi.

-I want to know what was your inspiration to become a cartoonist.

-That's gonna be the toughest question I get tonight.

[ Laughter ] Because I always wanted it.

Ever since I was quite young.

I mean, I... My earliest inspiration, I would say, was reading comic books.

Maybe before that, it was watching very old Superman cartoons on Saturday-morning television, ones that were made well before I was born, and just being thrilled by what I had seen in these fantasies.

There were also children's books I grew up reading.

This learned me to -- This taught me to... to love drawing and love fantasy and to seek it out and develop it myself.

I would also say growing up in the country was a great deal of help, because I already lived in a wonderland full of grasshoppers and snakes and all kinds of wonderful monsters.

[ Laughter ] -Thank you.

-Thank you.

[ Applause ] -How about you, young lady?

Real quick.

Yeah.

-I had a question.

And what has been your favorite book that you've made and why?

-Mm.

-My favorite book that I've made and why.

Well, I... That's a tough question because it's -- You're too young to understand this, but this is kind of like asking someone who's got children who their favorite child is.

[ Laughter ] But, um -- But it's... I would say that... of all the books that I've done, there's the "Sin City" series because it's such an ongoing examination of what a hero is and all the struggles between what's right and wrong that can define what a hero is.

And there's my book "300," because... ...that is the single most heroic story I've ever been lucky enough to do.

And I feel that it has the deepest meaning because it was simply a matter of 300 heroes fighting for... ...fighting to do the right thing at the cost of their own lives because it was the right thing for the world.

-Thank you.

-Thank you so much.

[ Applause ] -Go ahead, please.

-Hi, Frank.

-Hey -I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the influence of Japanese manga and culture on your comics.

-None whatsoever.

[ Laughter ] What'd he say?

All this talk about Japanese manga.

I don't even know what it is.

No.

No.

Seriously, it's been profound.

I first became aware of manga when a girlfriend of mine showed me a copy of the Japanese "Lone Wolf and Cub."

-"Lone Wolf and the Cub."

Yeah.

-And... And I saw a radically different approach to the storytelling that I'd never seen before.

Plus the wonderful, mythological quality of the samurai and the ninja in it.

This... This, led directly to my introducing my book "Ronin," which combined this Japanese approach with the very different approach of the French cartoonist Jean Giraud, known as Moebius, to create a science-fiction samurai series.

But the manga, to me, was a very... was a deep breath of fresh air to comics that was much needed, as American comics had gotten more and more congested -- and I even say constipated... [ Laughter ] ...with how complicated they got.

-All right.

-Thank you.

Well, I believe that's all the time we have for now.

[ Cheers and applause ] -Thank you.

Thank you very much.

-Thank you so much, everyone, for coming.

If you have questions, I cannot recommend this book enough.

It has a lot of answers in here, so definitely read this book.

Thank you, Mr.

Miller... -Thank you.

-...for taking the time.

You've been such a pleasure.

And thank you to the Library of Congress and all the great volunteers today.

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