[music] I'm Alexander Heffner, your host on The Open Mind.

I'm delighted to welcome our guest today, Emani Davis.

She is the director of The Omowale Project.

Welcome, Emani.

Thank you.

Happy to be with you.

It's lovely to be with you, too.

Can you tell me about the derivation of your project that you started in 2020?

Sure.

So it's just the newest iteration of my work.

I've been in the field of justice, for the past 31 years.

But in 2020, we launched The Omowale Project, named after my father, Jamal Omowale.

And it was really a legacy project to focus on the well-being of people who were called into the work of service.

And so we support leaders and frontline workers, who are part of the movement, social justice movements, liberation movements, and we focus on the kind of healing and sustainability needed to move important work forward.

Talk to me about your dad.

And what inspired you to start this project along his journey in the justice system.

So my father has spent, he spent a total of 25 years in prison.

During most of my life, there was incarceration before that, but for my lifetime, almost 30 years in prison.

When I was six.

Came home when I was 30.

And my father was a pivotal, part of the black liberation movement here in the United States.

He was a minister of defense to Black Panther Party.

He was an Attica brother.

And so I grew up very close to the movement space and very invested in the well-being of people who were in prison and coming home from prison and their families.

I would say that our focus on thinking about incarceration as connected to families was something that was just real for us.

I spent my entire life visiting him in a maximum security prison in Virginia.

Even though we are from New York and lived in New York.

And so much of our work was an expression of what we did or did not have access to in our relationship with him and my work really kind of followed the pattern of our life.

At 18, I started working inside of men's prisons in New York State.

Since then Ive worked in prisons and jails in New York and California.

And, mainly the focus has really been about family preservation and family reunification, wanting to keep families together even when incarceration is part of the equation.

So, you've had a journey yourself in assessing the conditions in the system that would allow for any type of healing actually within the system, before exiting the system.

You know, have things progressively gotten worse since you started observing the conditions in the system, specifically in prison and also on parole?

I think it depends on where you're talking about.

I think that I, I think it's a disservice to the men of Attica and to the men and women who have continued to do a lot of work inside, since 1971, to make conditional changes inside the prisons, to say that it's worse or that nothing has really changed.

I think there have been many positive changes in many places.

I think we still have places like Angola and Louisiana, which is still an atrocious place in which conditions are still horrific.

But even within Angola, there are, you know, men who support other men who are in hospice.

And so I think that you have to look for the glimmers of light that are everywhere, and just know that the will of the people is powerful.

And incarcerated people are a force, and their loved ones continue to be a force in community to push for things.

I would say I've seen, many positive changes and we've seen some incredible setbacks.

I think Covid had a huge impact on, family connections and on well-being of people inside and their families because it forced us to go to this remote, kind of way of not visiting, not having contact, decreasing the kind of contact we had.

And I think there's been an overreliance in many states to maintain that.

And so we are fighting all over the country to kind of make sure that we can preserve and get back full contact visiting, we think the technology has been helpful and it's allowed for all different types of communication.

But we also know that, it can be dangerous and it definitely isn't a substitute for contact visiting.

I think we've also seen some places in which you've seen much more clemency, much more, much better functioning parole boards.

But you also seen places that continue to not send people home to not order compassionate release.

So I think it really matters where you're talking about.

I think you would, as you would imagine, New York tends to be much more progressive, California does a lot of work inside.

But then you have so much of the country in which we don't even know what's happening.

And that really, doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what may be happening inside of private prisons, which is as you know, ever growing, in this country.

And those tend to be some of the worst conditions, then we really don't have access to them in the same way.

Private prisons, meaning monetized, private prisons.

I mean, to a certain extent all prisons are monetized, but, yes, private prisons owned by private corporations, not run by the state or the federal government.

The reason I asked you about that.

And it's heartening to hear that there are some silver linings.

There's some bright spots.

Is I wanted to ask you, what it means to heal.

I mean, is healing feasible?

Is it dependent upon the conditions in a facility?

When you talk about healing within, the prison system, is healing only possible once someone is, exonerated or, leaves the system?

How do you think about healing?

I actually love the way Gabor Maté, defines healing.

It's probably the best definition I've ever heard.

Which is a "return to wholeness."

And if you use that definition, then for one thing, we have to honor that healing is a lifetime process.

We never get it done, right?

We're always in process.

We're always in root.

Because with every kind of moment of feeling like you've moved through something or you've gained new acceptance of something, or you've gained some wisdom about something that you went through that was painful, you then have a new opening to see something else about yourself that may also need tending to.

And so I think Nelson Mandela would be a good person to look at to see is healing possible in prison.

I would say that healing is possible everywhere, and prison is a very difficult place to be able to manage trauma, right?

So healing and trauma are separate things, but I think they go hand in hand for the purposes of our work.

And so when we're thinking about people's ability to confront and deal with and learn from and grow from the traumas that they've experienced, I think that there are some programs and some prisons that do incredible work to help men and women confront the things that have happened to them and begin to make amends for the harm that they've caused.

And I think that tremendous healing happens in those situations.

I don't think we see enough of that kind of programing, which is why we focus on the back end.

You know, we don't feel like we're abandoning people in a process when they're inside.

But, one of the kind of difficult things and beautiful things about prison is that isolation is an opportunity for deep reflection.

And it is an opportunity for people to deepen their relationship with whatever they believe, their God or creator to be.

We see tremendous growth in terms of people finding God in prison.

That's not by accident, right?

It's that people are forced into a situation in which they have very little control over anything, and really, all they have are their selves.

And so there is an opportunity for them to begin to really deep dive and look deeply at what led them to prison.

And I think one of the things we see and we know is that, you know, people who perpetuate harm and end up in prison were first victims.

That's the reality.

And so I think our work really focuses on wanting to know what happened to people and not focusing simply on what they did in response to what happened to them.

And I think that there are many opportunities in prison and in community to help people confront those things.

What I think is missing in prison is a lack of exposure to violence and more trauma.

So it's one thing to be in a process of healing, but then to always be in an environment in which you have to be hyper vigilant is just unhealthy for the nervous system, right?

So it's just difficult for people to manage in an environment where there's so little, you know, control and so much exposure to, deprivation.

Oh, thats really insightful.

I appreciate you spending that time reflecting on the meaning of healing.

And also why achieving that in even what was intended to be a rehabilitative setting.

It's not necessarily coexisting.

Before I ask you how we might change that.

Let me ask you about healing on the outside.

For most people who were incarcerated, how should we understand the process of healing?

You know, there are obviously depictions of this in nonfiction and entertainment.

And, you know, you can get a sense, but you don't really know until you speak to someone who has that first hand knowledge about an intimate family member who went through it.

But what does healing look like on the outside?

And how should we think about it in connection with, rehabilitation or transition, into embracing your full humanity and possessing your full humanity again?

I think, I appreciate you highlighting the ways in which people would really learn what it means and what it looks like up close.

I think we approach people in prison and coming home from prison and families with deep, compassionate curiosity.

And I think the framing, the lens that we like to use is that we focus heavily on what are the strengths that people developed in prison?

What are the things that they learned how to do and where the places that they were masterful?

And I think that if you're trying to provide any care to folks who are returning from prison, you need to begin with strength, because the way community deals with them, even from a loving place, is to identify all the things they don't know.

They won't know, don't know how to do, and all the places that they'll struggle.

And I think people do that with the best intentions.

But it has people come home feeling very developed, mentally retarded in their own kind of, way of moving in the world.

And so we find that it pushes them to be less receptive to support.

And so it's really important that we begin from a place of understanding that these are adults, that these are people who have weathered incredible storms inside and in community prior to going to prison, and that they know a lot about themselves and about what they need and about what they think, and that really empowering them to begin to talk about what they are feeling and what they need is the most important thing to do is to not bombard them with what we've assessed that they should want or need, but to really listen, because one of the things that they lose inside of prison is agency, the ability to say what they need and then to count on people to offer that to them.

And so being able to retrain the brain to be able to ask for something and receive it is a really important process.

And many of the men and women that I work with use a term which says that "we move at the speed of trust."

And I think that I love that saying because I think that that's one of the most important things is to move at the pace of the person who's coming home.

And we force people back into the community and back into working environments and back into families way too quickly.

We really don't honor the fact that there really is a, my mom, we were in, I think, Chicago O'Hare airport, and after you come to security, there's a recombobulation area.

And because, you know, I'm disrobing and taking all your stuff out, feels so discombobulating.

And I remember her saying, like, we should have this for people when they come home, a recombobulation center.

Because you really do just need the time to settle back into yourself to, like, figure out what time does my body actually want to wake up, right?

And how do I think about time when somebody is not telling me what to do, and what food do I like to eat?

And how is my digestion now, right?

Like really getting to know themselves in an environment that is more liberated than the one they're used to.

And so I think care really has to be responsive.

And it's not a monolith.

Like there's not one thing that I would say people need.

Some people need to be reintroduced to safe touch, intimacy is deprived in prison, right?

You're actually penalized for having any intimate contact in prison.

And so one of the things that we see often is that the things we want to do, most hug people, love people, be physically affectionate with people that folks actually may not even know how to receive that when they come home, and may be very uncomfortable with that.

So I think we focus heavily on really listening and observing what's happening with the person, and then really trying to normalize all of the feelings and all of the overwhelm that they're feeling, and then continue to introduce them piece by piece to new ways of thinking about healing and well-being.

Massages, acupuncture, swimming, right?

We try to be very creative of just having them begin to resonate again with a body that they have control over.

And to kind of we just want them to try everything and see what feels good to them.

To what extent do the provisions in parole, conflicts with what you're describing about human care, community care, self-care.

Because there are a lot of people in the justice reform movement who are lasered in on second chance hiring and the education imperative and the economic imperative.

But what I hear you saying Emani is, not so fast.

We have to get this right on the front end of the exit.

If you want any opportunity to see the longevity and the reduction in recidivism that would come with that longevity.

We definitely feel like the way that parole is designed.

And even the way the field is designed right now actually pushes people out and into a work environment.

And being very focused on making money way too quickly.

We don't necessarily have a solution for that because mutual aid is always a contentious conversation.

But we do have some interesting pilots, kinship care programs that are giving families $500 a month to bring people home.

Like we are thinking of more and more creative ways to provide wraparound support to families.

So there's not so much pressure on them having to come home and contribute quickly.

But it's difficult because men and women come home and they do feel tremendous burden.

They want to be able to provide for their families, they want to make up for lost time.

And so we actually... And sometimes they have to - in a condition of their parole -Very often.

So.

-to pay fees.

-So the conditions of parole absolutely make it very, very difficult.

They're, often in conflict with what people need, and they're often in conflict with what they even say they want.

They want people to work.

They want people to get housing, but they also want people to program.

So many parole conditions are like they have to attend meetings also.

Which are like in the middle of the day.

And so you have no idea how people are supposed to find jobs and work full time and be able to move around and be compliant with parole.

You know, we have systems that just don't think strategically about what they're asking of people.

And they don't consider that these are human beings who are also adjusting to life, again, and trying to kind of learn, right?

Just getting to an appointment on a subway for somebody coming home is incredibly confusing.

It's confusing for a tourist.

So imagine somebody who may be from New York City, but they're coming home after 25 years, right?

And they've never had to figure out a metro card.

So there's just many things that I think parole doesn't take into account.

And, I think they don't really understand just the feeling of pressure that people feel for themselves, right?

That there's so much pressure that people put on themselves.

I also think, you know, we are developing a training now for organizations who hire formerly incarcerated and directly impacted people.

And one of the things that we suggest in the work that I do now, is we talk about the real need to have them have kind of like a, a we think of it as like, spiritual running buddy, or like, a little coach, someone who has them kind of figure out email, but also figures out, like, you know, how to set up their insurance and how to, you know, think about where they want to live and how to make a smart purchase about a sofa.

Like, there are so many things that people don't think about, you know, they just think, just get them a job, just get them compliant, just get them a home.

But you know, now you buy everything on the internet, right?

And so for people that haven't had any access to the internet, figuring out Wayfair versus Ashley Furniture, right?

Is an overwhelming thing to think about.

And so we put people in roles and they want to contribute, and we want to give them a ways to contribute.

But we also know that people need real support systems that aren't going to make them feel stupid, that aren't going to emasculate or humiliate them, but are just going to compassionately be there with them to help them navigate all of the things that come with returning home.

How much of this are you thinking about, active participation and civic life is also redeeming, restorative and healing?

You know, if you look, theres a... some states allow people to engage in civic life and vote, after being incarcerated.

Others do not.

But is this something that you're considering in a further elaboration of the healing process, in your mind, or are these things like you're saying with the job just not as much of a pressing priority?

Or do you think if, for example, every state had, the ability for, system impacted people to vote?

There would be a difference in psychology and consciousness around that agency you alluded to.

So I want to be clear.

While I think people need more time to transition and a lot more support, that's not real in a country like ours, in which everything is so expensive.

So I do think we need to be thoughtful about ways that we subsidize people and give them more time.

And we also need to make sure that we understand that people are going to come home and work and jump in and do all these things, and so they need additional peer support and also organizational support to be able to do that in a way that's meaningful and that helps them to temper their anxiety and emotions around what's happening.

I also think that it is that, of course, there are states in which they don't allow formerly incarcerated people to vote because they know very well that given how many people in this country have a felony record conviction, that it is a powerful force and would be a powerful force for change and that they would have huge impacts on legislation and policies in states.

So we 100% feel like voter registration and working hard on people's restoring the right to vote is an incredibly important part of our movement.

And we think that it is absolutely a very good process for people to be able to re-engage in community and to make differences.

We think their voices matter, that they should be included in decisions that are being made about them.

And we also think that it's an important, process to feeling like you are part of a community, to feel like you're paying taxes but can't vote is very strange.

Yeah.

It doesn't have people really feel like they really are engaged in the process of being a true citizen and being free.

And so I think, I think it's very important, regardless of how I feel about what's currently happening.

Knowing where we are.

With a new president and a new Congress, the ideal outcome is to reset to free ourselves of, partizan vitriol, the rhetoric that demonizes otherizes people.

If you were to write a blueprint for how we can incorporate healing, the practice of healing, the philosophy of healing into the justice system.

Again, whether that's in, the system as a, person in prison or person on parole or whether that's once you've, fully regained your autonomy or agency.

But what specifically would you change?

You said you're working on some pilot programs.

Do you have specific legislative or policy steps that you think ought to be enacted in this year of 2025?

I think that the concept of healing is mostly misunderstood.

And so heres how I would approach your question.

I would say that if we restored the humanity to all of the systems that interface with human beings, that that would get the job done.

So I think that there are legislations that I would like to see push this year.

I would like for New York and other states to preserve full contact visiting for people who are incarcerated.

I would like to see proximity get on some bills so that people think about where people's family members are before they sentence them, and send them out in the middle of nowhere, the federal government, the feds definitely send people everywhere.

Hawaii, Puerto Rico, everybody is basically incarcerated, you know, in mainland.

And so what we're doing to families and the cultural impacts of that are huge.

But what I would say is that in every part and every part of this system at arrest, sentencing, how people think about sentencing that if you just restored the humanities for one person looking into the eyes of another human being who was questioning, like, what do I really want for this person, right?

Like, I know that this person has caused harm because they were harmed.

And who do I want to reemerge in five years or ten years?

And do I want them to be a positive force in the lives of their children and their families?

Do I want them to learn and grow from this?

Do I want them to feel like theyre members of this society?

Can I honor that there is something that they do have to contribute, and then I want them to be able to do that at some point, that people have a right to come to Earth and contribute, right?

To serve.

I think that for me is the most simplest way to look at it, like we will not heal or repair any of ourselves.

All of the things that have been done to us.

But what we know is that when someone speaks to you with disrespect and treats you like you're less than human, then all of those wounds that you've had from a very little kid open up again.

And so I think that at any point that we are in contact with someone who is struggling, and that's the reality.

People get arrested.

It's the worst day of your life, the worst day.

And everything that happens after that.

Right?

I think we fundamentally, in this country, don't understand the impact of being separated from those that you love, from community and being locked in a place far away with people you don't know who do not care about you at all, and what that does to the mind and the body and what it does to a community.

And for me, it's like it's not about can we put a good practice in, right?

Like, yes, they should have yoga inside and yes, they should have storytelling and all these things, and they should have healthy food, right?

Like we shouldn't be relying on vendor services.

We should be using farmers to provide real farm to table for people who are incarcerated.

There are many things we could do that would help with the health and well-being of people inside.

But more than anything is we should treat people with respect because people go to prison as punishment, not for punishment.

And people who love people who are incarcerated are people who love people just like everybody else.

They're part of families, and everybody deserves to be treated with dignity and respect.

If you did that to people, the parts of people that are crippled and wounded and hurt would be repaired just by the tenderness that comes from one human being extending compassion to somebody else.

That's inspiring.

And what you're suggesting is it's a consciousness.

It's a state of mind and empathy and a cognizance and understanding of what you just described about And it doesn't cost money.

Right.

Its free.

So is it even worth asking you, you allude to this, yoga.

But in all seriousness, the idea of available educational and therapeutic tools in the system, you refer to over the last many years, being exposed to the system in different manifestations of it.

But to your mind, when I asked you from the outset, are things better or worse, like the availability of those resources.

Is that something that even with the consciousness you want to import, is that something that is readily available or not nearly enough readily available when you talk about, the idea of counseling therapy in the system.

When you talk about the idea of not just GED, but college level instruction, you know, secondary school, college level instruction, maybe even more advanced than that.

In that respect, are you finding that those tools and resources are more readily available than they have been?

Or if there were funding mechanisms in place, you would advocate for increasing those resources?

Programing in prison is critical.

Every type of programing.

There's programs that do marathon preparation in California that now went to Seattle.

Here's what I would say.

You can never have enough programs inside.

-Yeah.

-I love the programs that exist.

We have the data.

We've been doing programing inside for 30 plus years, maybe even longer.

The Quakers were doing it 100 years ago.

Like, we know that when people go in and they provide, you have a captive audience.

You have people who are so hungry to learn, to engage, to be spoken to, as someone who has something to contribute to the world.

And so it is the best, most fertile environment to impart knowledge.

And so it is sinful to have places that are not programing folks inside, not educating them, not giving them skills.

I think yes, we have seen an increase in some places Covid has decimated even the most progressive, Washington state used to be quite progressive in how much programing.

Theyve used Covid as an excuse to cut programing.

In New York, when you have, you know, like when there are work shortages, all of these things, right?

They always are looking for a reason to cut it.

But the reality is when you really look at the data, correctional officers are safer in environments where people are programing and seeing their families, places where you have more visiting and more programs, you have less incidents of harm.

People are going home and they're doing better.

So the data would suggest that programs are good, so I 100% support them.

Think we need to expand them.

They should be everywhere.

There should be no limit to what we're providing to people inside.

And that funding should be absolutely available because it is the best determinant of whether or not people are going to come home and contribute or get back in trouble.

It's the best determination we have.

Emani, thank you for sharing your story.

Thank you for your insight.

-Thank you for your profound -Thank you.

advocacy.

The ideas you shared really are cherished here by me.

And I think our viewers, too.

So thank you.

Thank you so much.

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