PRESIDENT BUSH: THEN THE ARMIES OF COMPASSION HIT AFRICA, WELL FUNDED, AND HOPE CAME.

>> THE SAME PERCENTAGE OF AMERICANS TECHNICALLY BELOW THE POVERTY LINE IT MEANS POVERTY AFTER 50 YEARS AND $20 TRILLION HAS NOT BECOME MORE ESCAPABLE BUT MORE BEARABLE.

THAT'S NOT AMERICAN.

[CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE NATIONAL C >> I'M MICHAEL GERSON.

AMY: I'M AMY HOLMES.

MICHAEL: A SPECIAL EDITION OF "IN PRINCIPLE."

WE'RE @OF THE BELTWAY TO TALK ABOUT LEADING THROUGH COMPASSION.

AMY: REPUBLICANS ONCE EMBRACED COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVISM UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND FOR A TIME IT HELPED SHAPE OUR NATIONAL DEBATE AND GUIDED AMERICAN EFFORTS TO HELP THE POOR AND NEEDY AROUND THE WORLD.

BUT HOW DO POLITICAL LEADERS TODAY LIFT PEOPLE UP AND OFFER HOPE?

IF HELPING OTHERS DOESN'T MEAN IN YOUR OWN COMMUNITIES OR YOUR OWN COUNTRY, SHOULD ORDINARY AMERICANS CARE?

MICHAEL: LATER WE'LL HAVE ARTHUR BROOKS, WHO HAS BEEN ASKING HIMSELF THOSE QUESTIONS AS THE LEADER OF AN INFLUENTIAL THINK TANK THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE.

BUT FIRST, COMMITMENT TO OTHERS WAS TOP OF MIND FOR ANOTHER PERSON, MY FORMER BOSS, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, WHO SAT WITH US SHORTLY AFTER THE DEATH OF HIS MOTHER, FORMER FIRST LADY BARBARA BUSH.

MR. PRESIDENT, THANK YOU FOR WELCOMING US AND OUR DEEPEST SYMPATHIES FOR YOUR LOSS.

PRESIDENT BUSH: MICHAEL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

YOU GOT TO KNOW MOTHER.

YOU GOT TO NOT ONLY KNOW MOTHER PERSONALLY.

YOU GOT TO KNOW MOTHER THROUGH ME.

MIKE AND I WORKED SIDE BY SIDE AT THE WHITE HOUSE FOR YEARS.

AND I APPRECIATE YOUR SYMPATHY AND I'M VERY APPRECIATIVE OF THE OUTPOURING OF SYMPATHIES PARTICULARLY FOR MY DAD, YOU KNOW, AT AGE 93.

HE IS GOING TO MISS MOTHER.

AFTER ALL, THEY WERE MARRIED FOR 73 YEARS.

BUT THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

AMY: MOST OF THEIR LIVES.

PRESIDENT BUSH: I'M COMFORTABLE WITH HER PASSING BECAUSE SHE WAS COMFORTABLE WITH HER PASSING.

SHE TOLD ME POINT BLANK I DO NOT FEAR DEATH.

I KNOW THERE IS A LOVING GOD.

AND YOU KNOW, I TOLD MY DAUGHTERS, OUR DAUGHTERS AND MY BROTHER SAYS, WOW, WHAT A BEAUTIFUL, BEAUTIFUL LESSON.

AMY: MR. PRESIDENT, DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO SAY GOOD-BYE TO YOUR MOM?

PRESIDENT BUSH: I DID, YEAH.

LAURA AND I WENT OVER THERE AND SAW HER AT THE HOSPITAL.

SHE WAS DOING PRETTY WELL.

SLIGHTLY FEISTY STILL, WHICH IS A GOOD SIGN.

AND SO SHE AND I USED TO KIND OF NEEDLE EACH OTHER IN A FRIENDLY WAY.

AND I WAS KIND OF TEASING HER AND SHE WAS TEASING ME.

THEN THE DOCTOR WALKED IN.

THE DOCTOR WALKED INTO THIS HOSPITAL ROOM AND MOTHER SAID, DO YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY GEORGE W. IS THE WAY HE IS, DOCTOR?

AND THE DOCTOR KIND OF -- DIDN'T HAVE ANY CHOICE.

AND MOTHER SAID, BECAUSE I DRANK AND SMOKED WHEN I WAS PREGNANT WITH HIM.

[LAUGHTER] SO I KNEW SHE WAS FEELING PRETTY GOOD.

THEN A WEEK LATER SHE WENT DOWNHILL.

SHE CHOSE NO -- DIDN'T WANT ANY LIFE SUSTAINING CARE.

SHE WAS READY TO MOVE.

I TOLD HER HOW MUCH I LOVED HER.

MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS DID THE SAME THING.

SHE WAS BY DAD'S SIDE.

INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, HE SAT THERE FOR FOUR OR FIVE HOURS, I'M TOLD, AND A PREACHER CAME IN AND READ THE BIBLE AND MY BROTHER NEIL READ MOM'S MEMOIRS .

IT WAS A SWEET SCENE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

MICHAEL: VERY SWEET.

PRESIDENT BUSH: SHE HAD A VERY FORTUNATE LIFE AND A VERY FORTUNATE END IN MANY WAYS.

MICHAEL: IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE IT BUT IT'S 15 YEARS AGO THAT THE INITIATIVE WAS BORN.

I REMEMBER THE POLICY MEETING IN THE OVAL OFFICE WHEN THAT WAS APPROVED.

WHAT POINT DID YOU MAKE THE DECISION WE HAVE TO DO THIS?

PRESIDENT BUSH: AS YOU KNOW, MICHAEL, ONE OF THE PRINCIPLES I CAMPAIGNED ON WAS ALL HUMAN LIFE IS PRECIOUS.

IN THE POLITICAL DEBATE OF COURSE THAT GENERALLY MEANS ABORTION.

BUT FOR US, IT WAS A BROADER PRINCIPLE.

AS YOU KNOW, AS WELL, TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN MUCH IS REQUIRED WAS A CENTRAL TENET OF OUR ADMINISTRATION.

THERE IS AN OBLIGATION.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, IN MY FIRST INAUGURAL YOU WROTE, WE MUST BE CITIZENS, NOT SPECTATORS.

THAT IS THE SPIRIT OF THAT.

ANYWAY, SO CONDI CAME IN AND SAID JUST SO YOU KNOW THERE IS A PANDEMIC DESTROYING AN ENTIRE GENERATION IN AFRICA, RELATIVELY EARLY IN THE ADMINISTRATION.

AND BEING SOMEWHAT OF A SKEPTIC I SAID, PROVE IT.

MIKE WILL TELL YOU ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT THE PRESIDENCY IS IF YOU WANT SOMETHING PROVEN THEY CAN FIND THE EXPERTS WHO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT.

IN THEY COME AND, IN FACT, ERE WAS A PANDEMIC.

DECIDED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT RIGHT THEN.

E PROBLEM WAS -- NOT A PROBLEM JUST ONE OF THE ROAD BLOCKS -- THERE WERE SOME IN THE ADMINISTRATION WHO FELT WE NEEDED TO GO THROUGH THE U.N.

REMEMBER, WE SET UP THE U.N. AIDS?

MICHAEL: EXACTLY.

PRESIDENT BUSH: SO I AGREED.

BECAUSE I WAS RELATIVELY NEW TO THE JOB.

I THINK AT THIS POINT I STILL WANTED TO BE LIKED.

AMY: WHEN DID THAT STOP?

PRESIDENT BUSH: WHEN I WASN'T.

AND SO WE SET UP THIS GLOBAL FUND AND NOBODY MATCHED.

THAT'S WHEN WE DECIDED AND YOU WERE IN THAT MEETING AS WELL, THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO RELY UPON OTHER NATIONS.

WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THE LEAD AND PICK 17 AFFECTED NATIONS AND SET UP A STRATEGY.

SO IT WAS THE KNOWLEDGE THERE WAS A PANDEMIC THAT REALLY GOT THE INITIATIVE STARTED.

AMY: SO, MR. PRESIDENT, AT THE TIME, THIS WASN'T A NATURAL ISSUE FOR REPUBLICANS, CONSERVATIVES, OR EVANGELICALS.

HOW DID YOU CONVINCE THE RIGHT WING, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT TO GET ONBOARD?

PRESIDENT BUSH: IT WAS A NATURAL ISSUE FOR ME.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW.

WE JUST WENT.

IT WASN'T ONE OF THOSE THINGS WE WERE WORRIED ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT CERTAIN SEGMENTS OF OUR PARTY LIKED US OR NOT.

ALL OF US INVOLVED WITH THE EFFORT WERE CONVINCED IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

THE FOCUS WASN'T REALLY ON THE POLITICS OF IT BUT ON PUTTING A PLAN IN PLACE THAT WOULD WORK.

ONCE A PLAN WORKS AND LIVES ARE SAVED IT WOULD CAUSE OTHERS TO JOIN THE EFFORT.

SO I DON'T REMEMBER A LOT OF POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS AROUND THE ISSUE.

IF THERE WERE I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT I'D HAVE DISMISSED THEM OUT OF HAND.

MIKE, YOU MAY HAVE A BETTER TAKE ON THAT.

MICHAEL: NO, I AGREE WITH YOU.

I DON'T THINK THAT WAS THE PRESSURE.

THE PRESSURE WAS INTERNAL.

PRESIDENT BUSH: YES IT WAS.

MICHAEL: PART OF YOUR PRESSURE WAS THAT YOU WANTED TO MAKE SURE IT WOULD WORK.

YOU KNOW, WE WERE NOT JUST DOING AID.

WE WANTED TO DO A DIFFERENT KIND.

PRESIDENT BUSH: THAT'S RIGHT.

MICHAEL: AND YOU HAD A BUSINESS BACKGROUND YOU BROUGHT TO IT.

HOW DO YOU MAKE A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM --?

PRESIDENT BUSH: YOU SET CLEAR GOALS FOR STARTERS AND MAKE SURE AUTHORITY AND RESPONSIBILITY ARE ALIGNED.

THEN TAKE AN INTEREST IN THE PROGRAM.

IN OTHER WORDS, HOLD PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT BY AT LEAST PAYING ATTENTION TO THEM AT THE MINIMUM.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MADE A BIG DIFFERENCE WAS THAT WE ALSO UNDERSTOOD THE AFRICAN NATIONS NEEDED TO BE PARTNERS.

THAT WE HAD REJECTED WITH THE MILLENNIUM CHALLENGE ACCOUNT THIS NOTION THAT FOREIGN AID IS SIMPLY A NUMBER THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE DEEMED COMPASSIONATE IF YOU REACH A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF YOUR G.D.P.

IN GIVING.

WE FELT IN THIS ADMINISTRATION IT WAS A PRETTY RADICAL CHANGE, THE MILLENNIUM CHALLENGE ACCOUNT, THAT IN RETURN FOR FOREIGN AID WE EXPECT GOVERNMENTS TO GOVERN HONESTLY, THAT THE GOVERNMENTS INVEST IN THE HEALTH AND WELFARE OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN, THAT THEY ADOPT MARKET PLACE POLICIES.

AND SO THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF CHANGING HOW FOREIGN AID WAS GIVEN REALLY BEGAN WITH THE MILLENNIUM CHALLENGE AND PEPFAR WAS A CONTINUATION OF IT.

MICHAEL: WE ACTUALLY ANNOUNCED NUMERICAL GOALS IN THE STATE OF THE UNION IN 2003.

THAT WAS DIFFERENT.

IT WAS OUTPUTS NOT IMPACT.

PRESIDENT BUSH: THAT'S RIGHT.

I REMEMBER SITTING AROUND WITH JACQUES CHIRAC AND HE WAS FURIOUS ABOUT MILLENNIUM CHALLENGE ACCOUNT.

HE SAID HOW CAN YOU BE HOLDING PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT FOR CORRUPTION WHEN WE CREATED CORRUPTION?

I LOOKED AT HIM AND SAID, JACQUES, WE WERE NEVER A COLONIALIST NATION.

THE UNITED STATES DIDN'T CREATE CORRUPTION.

AMY: SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.

PRESIDENT BUSH: WE'RE GOING TO CREATE A BRIGHT FUTURE FOR PEOPLE.

SO THOSE ARE SOME OF THE GUIDING PRINCIPLES AND PEPFAR WAS A PART OF A SET OF PRINCIPLES THAT I ARTICULATED.

MIKE HELPED ME ARTICULATE THEM.

EVERYBODY IN THE ADMINISTRATION KNEW THEM.

WHEN THEY GOT THE PLAN IN PLACE AND WE FELT COMFORTABLE THE INTERNAL DEBATE WAS REALLY A FUNDING DEBATE.

WE PUT A BIG NUMBER OUT THERE AND DID NOT TELL ANYBODY IN CONGRESS.

INCLUDING YOUR OLD BOSS, BILL FRIST.

I'LL NEVER FORGET THE LOOKS OF THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHEN I GOT UP THERE AT THE STATE OF THE UNION, 15 BILLION I THINK WAS THE INITIAL NUMBER.

AND, YOU KNOW, I CALL UPON CONGRESS TO SPEND $15 BILLION TO SAVE LIVES ON THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA.

AND THERE'S LIKE --.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IT RECEIVED WIDE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

A LOT HAD TO DO WITH BILL FRIST.

JOHN KERRY WAS VERY MUCH INVOLVED.

ONCE IT STARTED GETTING MOMENTUM IT WAS THE KIND OF ISSUE THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FORGOT, YOU KNOW, THE POLITICAL BATTLES OF THE DAY.

THEY REALIZED WHAT WAS HAPPENING WAS OUR GRAND NATION WOULD BE ABLE TO SHOW ITS DEEP COMPASSION FOR PEOPLE WE MAY NEVER KNOW.

AND, YEAH, IT WAS AN AWESOME PROGRAM.

THRILLED, MICHAEL -- MICHAEL HELPED PUSH IT BIG TIME IN THERE.

SPEECHWRITERS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE KIND OF SITTING IN THE CORNER MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS BUT NOT HIM.

MICHAEL: USUALLY.

CHEWING PRESIDENT BUSH: CHEWING ON YOUR PEN.

AMY: MR. PRESIDENT, A LOT OF OUR VIEWERS MAY NOT KNOW YOU'VE GONE BACK TO AFRICA SINCE LEAVING THE OVAL OFFICE.

I WAS BORN IN AFRICA.

I WAS BORN IN ZAMBIA AND HIV/AIDS WAS RAVAGING THE POPULATION THERE.

SINCE GOING BACK AND BEING ON THE GROUND WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN WITH YOUR OWN EYES THAT HAS CHANGED SINCE YOUR PEPFAR INITIATIVE?

PRESIDENT BUSH: FIRST OF ALL, LET ME TELL YOU WHY WE GO BACK.

WE GO BACK BECAUSE WE DISCOVERED THIS WOMEN WHO HAVE THE AIDS VIRUS ARE MORE LIKELY TO GET CERVICAL CANCER AND NOTHING WAS BEING DONE.

I COULD JUST IMAGINE THE DESPONDENCEY OF, YOU KNOW, MOMS IN A VILLAGE SAYING, I LIVE, AND THEN A LESION SHOWS AND NOTHING HAPPENS.

SO WE START'D CERVICAL CANCER EFFORT.

WHAT CHANGED IS HOPE.

WHEN WE FIRST WENT, WE WENT TO THESE AIDS CLINIC WHERE THERE WAS DESPONDENCEY.

THE GIVERS WERE DESPONDENT.

THE RECEIVERS OF AID WERE DESPONDENT.

THERE WAS NO HOPE.

IT WAS LIKE, OK. HOW CAN WE MAKE THE LAST OF YOUR LIFE COMFORTABLE?

THEN THE ARMIES OF COMPASSION HIT AFRICA, WELL FUNDED, AND HOPE CAME.

AND THE OUTPOURING OF THANKS FOR AMERICA IS SIGNIFICANT.

THE SAD THING IS MOST AMERICANS DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

MICHAEL: AND THERE WAS SOME SKEPTICISM NOW ABOUT AMERICAN GLOBAL ENGAGEMENT, AND DISCUSSION.

WHAT DO WE GAIN BY THAT?

PRESIDENT BUSH: HERE'S THE THING.

THAT'S WHY I'M GLAD WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUE, BECAUSE IF AMERICA WERE TO SAY SOMEBODY ELSE'S PROBLEM AT THIS POINT, ALL THE GAINS MADE COULD LIKELY FRITTER AWAFMENT AWAY.

WE WENT TO A CLINIC IN NAMIBIA.

THERE WERE PROBABLY 80 MOTHERS SITTING AROUND, ALL WHO HAD AIDS, AND NOT ONE OF THEIR BABIES HAD AIDS.

AND SO THE TIDE IS BEGINNING TO TURN, BUT THE UNITED STATES IS INDISPENSABLE FOR NOT ONLY HELPING BUT FOR KEEPING OTHER NATIONS IN THE GAME UNTIL AFRICANS CAN BE SUSTAINING ENOUGH TO DO IT.

SO WHAT WE GAIN, MIKE, IS WE SHOULD GAIN A SENSE OF GOODNESS OF HELPING OTHERS, BUT WE ALSO GAIN A BULWARK AGAINST RADICALISM.

AND THE WAY I PUT IT IS IF YOU'RE AN ORPHAN WHO LOST HER MOM AND DAD, AND YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, WONDERING WHAT YOUR FUTURE IS ABOUT, AND THE BIG, RICH BOYS TURN THEIR BACK ON YOU, THERE IS ANOTHER GROUP WILLING TO RECRUIT YOU.

JOIN OUR FAMILY.

PEOPLE SAY, OH, MAN.

AL QAEDA THIS, AL QAEDA THAT.

LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING.

AL QAEDA WAS ACTIVE IN EAST AFRICA.

REMEMBER THE BOMBINGS?

SO IT IS IN OUR NATIONAL INTEREST TO WORRY ABOUT HOW HUMANS LIVE.

LISTEN, THE LESSON OF 9/11 WAS A HUMAN CONDITION ELSEWHERE MATTERS TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY.

AND SO TO THE EXTENT THAT WE'VE GOT PEOPLE SAYING, WELL, IT'S NONE OF OUR BUSINESS, LET OTHER PEOPLE SOLVE THE PROBLEM, THEY FORGET THE LESSON OF 9/11.

AMY: SO, MR. PRESIDENT, YOU RARELY TALK ABOUT YOUR LEGACY, YOU TEND TO DISMISS THAT KIND OF DISCUSSION, BUT MICHAEL WAS TELLING ME THAT YOU CAN'T HELP BUT NOTICE THAT PEPFAR AND YOUR HIV/AIDS INITIATIVE IN AFRICA TAKES UP QUITE A BIT OF ACREAGE AND FLOOR SPACE IN THE BUSH LIBRARY.

WHAT WAS YOUR PRIDE IN THAT?

PRESIDENT BUSH: MY LEGACY WAS MY GIRLS LOVE ME AND I DIDN'T LIE, CHEAT, OR STEAL.

BUT BECAUSE FOR PRECISELY THE QUESTION MIKE ASKED.

ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE DECIDED IS NOT TO SECOND GUESS MY SUCCESSORS BY GIVING LECTURES OR THIS OR THAT BUT THROUGH OUR ACTIONS WEI ARE SENDING MESSAGES.

ONE REASON WE TALK ABOUT PEPFAR AS MUCH AS WE DO IS IT SHOULD REMIND PEOPLE TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE.

THAT U.S.

ENGAGEMENT HELPS SAVE LIVES AND BY SAVING LIVES WE NOT ONLY MAKE THE WORLD BETTER WE MAKE OUR COUNTRY BETTER.

SO IT IS A WAY TO HIGHLIGHT PHILOSOPHY THROUGH ACTION.

AND IT IS LIKE HAVING AN IMMIGRATION CEREMONY HERE AND A NATURALIZATION CEREMONY, AND THE PICTURE OF THE DAY WAS ME STANDING NEXT TO TWO MEXICAN MARINES WHO JUST BECAME U.S. CITIZENS IN THEIR UNIFORMS.

AND SO WE'RE ACTIVISTS HERE, ACTIVISTS PROMOTING NOT ME OR MY, YOU KNOW, WHAT I DID, BUT ACTIVISTS IN PROMOTING A PHILOSOPHY, WHICH WE THINK IS BEST FOR OUR COUNTRY.

AMY: I UNDERSTAND YOUR DAUGHTER, BARBARA, HAS PICKED UP THE TORCH WITH MEDICAL MISSIONARY WORK?

PRESIDENT BUSH: OH, YEAH.

SHE'S A STAR.

AND VERY PROUD OF HER.

BY THE WAY, BECAME ACTIVE IN GLOBAL HEALTH ON ACCOUNT OF AFRICA WHEN SHE TRAVELED TO AFRICA WITH LAURA AND ME.

MICHAEL: MR. PRESIDENT, THANK YOU FOR TAKING TIME IN A DIFFICULT TIME.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

PRESIDENT BUSH: THANK YOU.

I APPRECIATE YOU SAYING THAT.

I AM -- I DON'T WANT TO SOUND CAVALIER BUT I TRULY AM AT PEACE.

AND I FEEL VERY BLESSED.

AND, PLUS, MY MOTHER, I CAN JUST HEAR HER SAYING, GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE AND DO SOMETHING GOOD.

AMY: ONE LAST QUESTION.

CAN I SQUEAK IT IN?

PRESIDENT BUSH: SURE.

AMY: WHAT ADVICE DID YOUR MOM GIVE YOU ABOUT BEING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?

PRESIDENT BUSH: LET'S SEE.

KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE BALL.

KEEP YOUR NOSE TO THE GRINDSTONE.

AND I TOLD HER THAT'S A HELL OF A POSITION TO BE IN.

AMY: A LITTLE AWKWARD.

PRESIDENT BUSH: YES.

NO.

SHE SAID, I TALKED TO HER -- THERE'S A LOT OF PSYCHOBABBLE ABOUT MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY PARENTS DURING THE PRESIDENCY AND IT'S NATURAL BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE TO ASK MANY PRESIDENTS WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE PRESIDENT WITH YOUR FATHER BEING A FORMER PRESIDENT AND MOTHER A FORMER FIRST LADY.

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THEY TOLD ME WAS, SON, I LOVE YOU AND WE'RE PROUD OF YOU.

WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ANY PARENT CAN TELL A CHILD.

AMY: ABSOLUTELY.

MICHAEL: THANK YOU, SIR.

PRESIDENT BUSH: GOOD TO BE WITH YOU ALL.

AMY: A PLEASURE.

PRESIDENT BUSH: THANK YOU.

>> IN A MINUTE ARTHUR BROOKS TALKS ABOUT PRINCIPLES THAT GUIDE HIM BUT FIRST PEPFAR'S LEGACY BY THE NUMBERS.

ACCORDING TO THE PRESIDENT'S EMERGENCY PLAN FOR AIDS RELIEF OR PEPFAR THE GLOBAL RESULTS FROM 2003 TO 2017.

2.2 MILLION BABIES BORN HIV FREE.

85.5 MILLION TESTED FOR HIV.

13.3 MILLION RECEIVED ANTIRETRO VIRAL TREATMENT.

6.4 MILLION ORPHANS AND VULNERABLE CHILDREN RECEIVED CARE AND SUPPORT.

250,000 NEW HEALTH CARE WORKERS TRAINED.

FROM PEPFAR TO NEW WAYS OF THINKING ABOUT POVERTY.

WE SIT DOWN WITH ARTHUR BROOKS.

ARTHUR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

AMY: ARTHUR, WE HAVE SPENT TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON THE WAR ON POVERTY.

AND WE STILL HAVE POVERTY AMONG US.

WHAT HAPPENED?

HOW DID WE FAIL?

MR. BROOKS: WE SPENT $20 MILLION AND THE POVERTY RATE WENT FROM 13% TO ABOUT 14%.

EVERYBODY WHO IS CRITICAL OF THESE STATISTICS WILL SAY BUT IT IS MUCH EASIER TO BE POOR BECAUSE POOR PEOPLE AREN'T AS POOR AS THEY USED TO BE.

TO BE SURE THAT IS CORRECT.

WHEN THE SAME PERCENTAGE OF AMERICANS IS TECHNICALLY BELOW THE POVERTY LINE IT MEANS THAT POVERTY AFTER 50 YEARS AND $20 TRILLION HAS NOT BECOME MORE ESCAPABLE BUT MORE BEARABLE.

THAT IS NOT AMERICAN.

MICHAEL: IS IT JUST GOVERNMENT HAS THE WRONG POLICIES?

OR YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT ENTIRELY DIFFERENTLY?

MR. BROOKS: I RUN A THINK TANK, THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT PUBLIC POLICY IS WHEN PUBLIC POLICY IS MOTT WORKING IT DOESN'T HELP TO -- NOT WORKING IT DOESN'T HELP TO THINK HARDER IN THE SAME OLD WAY.

YOU NEED TO THINK IN A NEW WAY.

YOU NEED AN EPIPHANY ABOUT HOW WE THINK INCORRECTLY ABOUT POVERTY IN AMERICA TODAY.

MY BELIEF IS WE SPENT 50 YEARS THINKING HOW CAN WE HELP PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR?

THAT IS THE WRONG QUESTION.

I'M ALL ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR.

AMY: THIS IS COUNTERINTUITIVE.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

MR. BROOKS: I BELIEVE IN A SAFETY NET AND I'M A WARRIOR FOR THE SAFETY NET.

I THINK WE NEED TO DECLARE PEACE ON THE SAFETY NET IN ALL KINDS OF MEANINGFUL WAYS.

BUT IT IS NOT ADEQUATE TO HELP POOR PEOPLE.

THE PROBLEM IS SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR ON POVERTY WE'VE GONE FROM NEEDING POOR PEOPLE TO HELPING THEM.

WE'VE GONE FROM SEEING POOR PEOPLE AS ASSETS TO OUR SOCIETY THAT WE NEED TO HAVE THEIR OAR IN THE WATER, WE NEED THEM TO WORK, CONTRIBUTES TO THE COMMUNITIES, TO BEING CHARITY ACES, LIABILITIES TO MANAGE.

THAT IS THE ULTIMATE MORAL FRUIT OF THE WAR ON POVERTY IN THIS COUNTRY IS THE CHANGE IN THE CULTURE AND THE WAY WE SEE OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN NEED.

WHEN YOU GO FROM NEEDING PEOPLE TO HELPING THEM THEY LOSE THEIR SENSE OF DIGNITY.

THIS IS A DIGNITY CRISIS NOT A POVERTY CRISIS.

AMY: LET ME BE A CONTRARIAN HERE.

A LOT OF CONSERVATIVES WOULD MAKE THE ARGUMENT POVERTY IN AMERICA DOESN'T LOOK THAT BAD.

IN FACT, IT LOOKS LIKE WEALTH IN INDIA.

WHY SHOULD THIS BE A PRIORITY?

IF POVERTY IN AMERICA MEANS HAVING CABLE, WATCHING HBO, AND HAVING A CELL PHONE AND A MICROWAVE AND ALL THESE WONDERFUL MODERN CONVENIENCES, WHY IS THIS ANYBODY'S RESPONSIBILITY?

MR. BROOKS: I THINK IT IS ACTUALLY A VICTORY THAT THE POOREST PEOPLE IN AMERICA ARE NOT POOR IN THE CONTEXT OF DEEP THIRD WORLD POVERTY BUT THAT IS SCANT COMFORT WHEN YOU BASICALLY HAVE A BIGGER AND BIGGER PORTION OF AMERICANS WHO ARE SAYING THEY DON'T FEEL DIGNITY IN THEIR LIVES.

AGAIN, WHY DO PEOPLE COME TO AMERICA?

WHY DID OUR ANCESTORS COME TO AMERICA?

YOU KNOW, THIS IS A COUNTRY WHERE WE ALL COME FROM DIFFERENT ROOTS.

I MEAN, SCRATCHING OUT POTATOES THREE GENERATIONS AGO, OUR ANCESTORS BEING BROUGHT HERE INVOLUNTARILY.

HERE IS WHAT WE ALL HAVE IN COMMON.

WE DESCEND FROM AMBITIOUS RIFF RAFF.

AND WE'RE PROUD OF IT.

IT'S -- THERE IS NO OTHER COUNTRY.

AMY: SPEAK FOR YOURSELF, ARTHUR.

MR. BROOKS: DON'T BESMIRCH THE REPUTATION OF MY ANCESTORS.

THEY WERE NOT AMBITIOUS.

BUT THERE IS NO OTHER COUNTRY THAT WE BRAG ABOUT THE FACT OUR GRANDPARENTS WERE POOR.

THAT IS AMAZING AND A GREAT THING BUT IT'S NOT ABOUT HAVING STUFF.

THAT'S ABOUT THE DIGNITY THAT COMES FROM PURPOSE AND MEANING AND EARNING YOUR SUCCESS.

AMY: WHY IS IT GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO GIVE THE WEALTHY LOVE?

OR THE POVERTY WITH A BIG HOUSE A SENSE OF DIGNITY?

WHERE DOES GOVERNMENT OR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR THAT MATTER FIT INTO THAT?

MR. BROOKS: IT IS A GOOD QUESTION AND, INDEED, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE GOVERNMENT DON'T HAVE A ROLE IN GIVING PEOPLE LOVE.

WHAT THEY HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO DO IS TO GET OUT OF THE WAY OF WHAT PEOPLE NEED.

I'M A BEHAVIORAL SOCIAL SCIENTIST AND I DO A LOT OF WORK ON HAPPINESS.

THE FOUR SOURCES OF HAPPINESS IN YOUR LIFE ARE VERY SIMPLE.

THESE ARE THE ACCOUNTS IN WHICH YOU NEED TO MAKE A DEPOSIT TODAY.

FAITH, FAMILY, FRIENDSHIPS, AND WORK.

THAT'S IT.

A LOT OF YOUR HAPPINESS IS GENETIC AND A LOT IS CIRCUMSTANTIAL.

BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO AFFECT IT THE MOST -- FAITH, FAMILY, FRIENDSHIPS, AND WORK.

MICHAEL: IS INCOME INEQUALITY GETTING WORSE AND IS IT A PROBLEM IN WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

MR. BROOKS: INCOME INEQUALITY IS SUCH A COMPLICATED PROBLEM ECONOMISTS TALK ABOUT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF BELIEFS THAT -- A LOT OF TRUTHS THAT AREN'T TRUE.

ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVED THE MOST ABOUT GEORGE W. BUSH IS PEOPLE HAVE THESE TRUTHS THAT AREN'T TRUE SO HE WOULD SAY, THIS ONE IS A TRUE FACT.

SO HERE ARE SOME TRUE FACTS.

INCOME INEQUALITY OUTSIDE OF THE TOP 1% OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION IN AMERICA HASN'T CHANGED.

CONSUMPTION INEQUALITY IN AMERICA HASN'T CHANGED.

AMY: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

MR. BROOKS: HOW MUCH PEOPLE CONSUME.

HOW MUCH STUFF THEY ACTUALLY CONSUME.

IT HASN'T CHANGED FROM 1970 UNTIL TODAY.

THE PERCENTAGE OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION LIVING ON A DOLLAR A DAY OR LESS, ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION OF COURSE, HAS DECREASED BY 4/5.

THAT GROUNDING STARVATION LEVEL POVERTY HAS DECREASED BY 80% SINCE I WAS A CHILD, SINCE WE WERE KIDS.

MICHAEL: DO CONSERVATIVES NEED SOME UPDATED VERSION OF COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVISM THAT ADDRESSES THESE ISSUES?

IT IS NOT ON THE AGENDA RIGHT NOW.

MR. BROOKS: I THINK THAT THERE IS NEVER A DAY THAT GOES BY WHEN CONSERVATIVISM SHOULDN'T BE COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVISM.

BY THE WAY, THERE IS NOT A DAY THAT GOES BY WHEN LIBERALISM SHOULDN'T BE COMPASSIONATE LIBERALISM.

THIS IS THE THING I REALLY BELIEVE IN MY HEART.

THE TENETS OF BASIC COMPASSION REQUIRE IDEAS AROUND THE MORAL CONSENSUS THAT WE NEED TO FIGHT FOR WHO IS GOING TO HELP THE PEOPLE AT THE MARGINS THE MOST BY NEEDING THEM THE MOST.

I MEAN, THAT COMPETITION OF IDEAS IS WHAT REALLY MAKES AMERICA GREAT.

AMY: ARTHUR, HOW DO WE SAVE AMERICA?

HOW DO WE MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN?

MR. BROOKS: THE GREATEST MISCONCEPTION I SEE WHEN TALKING TO MY FRIEND IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA AND THE ENTREPRENEURIAL ECONOMY IN TECH, IS THAT WE HAVE TO INCREASE THE PRODUCTIVITY OF THE TOP 5% AND 10% OF AMERICANS.

THAT IS WHAT THE BUSINESS MODEL BASICALLY IS IN MOST OF TECH AND REALLY HIGH SKILL ENTREPRENEURSHIP.

BUT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU.

I'M SUPER TAPPED OUT.

YOU KNOW, IN THE TOP 10% OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION.

THANK GOD.

I'M REALLY GRATEFUL.

BUT I CAN'T BE MADE MORE PRODUCTIVE AND I CAN'T IMAGINE BEING MADE MORE PRODUCTIVE.

AS I SEE IT AS AN ECONOMIST I LOOK AT THE PARTS OF THE ECONOMY THAT HAVE NOT BEEN MADE MORE PRODUCTIVE.

ON THE CONTRARY THE DEMOBILIZED IN THE AMERICAN ECONOMY HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND BECAUSE WE SAY THERE IS NOTHING THEY CAN'T DO.

I'M TACKING ABOUT THE BOTTOM 30% OF THE ECONOMY.

THAT IS WHERE THE OPPORTUNITY LIES.

IF WE CAN BRING EXPERTISE AND INGENUITY AND CREATIVITY AND LOVE TO BEAR IN THE WAY THAT WE UPDATE THE AMERICAN ECONOMY AND LOOK AT THAT PART, IT'S NOT JUST GOOD FOR THEM.

IT'S GOOD FOR US.

THAT'S WHERE AMERICAN PROSPERITY LIES.

IF WE'RE GOING TO MAKE THIS THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY, IT'S THE POOR WHO ARE GOING TO GET US THERE.

I THINK THAT IT'S THE POOR WHO CAN SAVE AMERICA.

AMY: IN TERMS OF GOVERNMENT'S ROLE DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE LIFTING PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY THROUGH A UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME OR DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE OFFERING A TEMPORARY SAFETY NET TO HELP PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE ON HARD TIMES?

MR. BROOKS: AS A GENERAL PRINCIPLE THE UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC YOU.

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM THAT HAS IS IT DOESN'T RECOGNIZE THE PURPOSE AND MEANING THAT COME, SANGET TIFF EDUCATION THAT COMES FROM PEOPLE'S WORK.

IT BASICALLY SAYS, ONE OF THE THINGS I REGRET THE MOST ABOUT MODERN POLICY IS THAT DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, THE ONE THING THEY CAN AGREE ON IS THAT LOW WAGE, LOW SKILL WORK IS PUNISHMENT.

AND SO DEMOCRATS WILL SAY, YOU CAN'T MAKE PEOPLE WORK FOR THEIR WELFARE.

THAT'S PUNISHMENT.

REPUBLICANS WILL SAY, SOCK IT TO THEM.

MAKE THEM WORK FOR THEIR WELFARE.

BOTH AGREE THAT LOW WAGE, SKILLED WORK IS A BAD THING.

THAT WORK IS ACTUALLY A PUNISHMENT.

WORK IS A BLESSING.

IT IS A BEAUTIFUL THING.

I HAVE DATA THAT SHOW PEOPLE WITH LOW SKILL, LOW WAGE WORK TEND TO ENJOY AND LIKE THEIR WORK AS MUCH AS PEOPLE WITH HIGH SKILL, HIGH WAGE WORK.

AND WITHOUT COLLEGE, WITH COLLEGE.

THE PERSON WHO MAKES YOUR SANDWICH TODAY GETS AS MUCH DIGNITY FROM HER WORK AS THE PERSON WHO CUTS YOUR LAWN AS THE PERSON WHO DRIVES THE BUS AS THE PERSON WHO RUNS THE THINK TANK OR HAS A SHOW ON PBS.

THIS IS A BIG DEAL.

THIS IS AN AMERICAN CONCEPT.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE ETHOS WE NEED, BUT THE CLASSISM THAT HAS CREPT INTO OUR SOCIETY WHERE WE VALUE PEOPLE WHO WENT TO HARVARD MORE THAN PEOPLE WHO DRIVE THE BUS INHERENTLY, MORALLY, THAT'S DEEPLY PROBLEMATIC.

ONCE THAT IS MORE INGRAINED, IT'S GOING TO BE HARD TO BRING AMERICAN GREATNESS IN THE SENSE OF THE SANCTIFICATION OF ORDINARY WORK, I'M NOT SURE YOU CAN GET IT BACK.

MICHAEL: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR A GREAT DISCUSSION.

AMY: WONDERFUL.

MR. BROOKS: THANK YOU.

AMY: THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FOR THIS WEEK.

DON'T FORGET TO CHECK OUT IN PRINCIPLE ONLINE.

AMY: I'M AMY HOLMES.

MICHAEL: I'M MICHAEL GERSON.

GOOD NIGHT.

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