♪ ♪ >> PULITZER PRIZE WINNING AUTHOR ALEX HAILEY ONCE SAID OF BILL TURNER, HE KNOWS MORE ABOUT BLACK LIFE AND CULTURE IN THE MOUNTAINS OF THE AMERICAN SOUTH THAN ANYBODY IN THE WORLD.

I TALK WITH WILLIAM, BILL TURNER, ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, THE HAR LAMB RENAISSANCE, STORIES OF BLACK LIFE IN APPALACHIAN COAL TOWN.

HE'LL TALK ABOUT HOW HE DECIDED TO WRITE THE BOOK MANY YEARS AFTER HE DECIDED TO WRITE IT.

THAT'S NOW ON CONNECTIONS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR CONNECTIONS TODAY.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

BILL TURNER IS A FAMILIAR FACE TO A LOT OF KENTUCKIANS.

HE HAS CLOSE ACADEMIC CONNECTIONS TO KENTUCKY STATE UNIVERSITY, THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY AND BEREA COLLEGE.

HE WAS BORN AND RAISED IN LYNCH, KENTUCKY, IN HARLAN COUNTY AND HE HAS OFTEN SAID HE DIDN'T EXPERIENCE RACISM UNTIL HE LEFT THE COAL FIELDS.

HIS NEW BOOK "THE HARLAN RENAISSANCE HAS BEEN HELD AS AN INSIGHTFUL MEMOIR THAT DEBUNKS MYTHS ABOUT MOUNTAIN PEOPLE AND HIGHLIGHTS THE COMMUNITY AND THE BLACK PEOPLE WHO ONCE RESIDED THERE.

BILL TURNER, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, RENEE.

GOOD TO SEE YOU, TOO.

>> YES, YOU ARE NOW LIVING IN TEXAS, BUT YOU KNOW, KENTUCKY WILL ALWAYS LAY CLAIM TO YOU.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

YEAH MY WIFE AND I MOVED TO TEXAS ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO, AFTER I LIVE ABOUTERRIA COLLEGE AND WE DID SO BECAUSE OUR FOUR GRANDCHILDREN LIVE IN THE HOUSTON AREA WITH OUR ADULT SONS.

AND THEIR WIVES AND IF THEY WERE LIVING IN TASS MANIA, WE-- TASMANIA, WE WOULD HAVE MOVED THERE.

WE WANTED TO SPEND TIME WITH OUR GRANDCHILDREN, WATCH THEM GROW UP, WHICH THE YOUNGEST WAS FOUR WHEN WE GOT THERE AND HE IS 14 NOW.

THE OLDEST ONE WAS 10 AND SHE IS 21.

>> Renee: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR KIDS AND YOUR GRAND KIDS AND YOU KNOW, YOUR PARENTS, YOUR FATHER.

HE WORKED IN THE COAL MINES.

WOULD HE EVER HAVE THOUGHT, NOT THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TURNED OUT LIKE YOU DID BUT WOULD YOU HAVE CHILDREN THAT WOULD GO TO ELITE HBCUs AND OTHER UNIVERSITIES IN THIS COUNTRY AND BE THE DREAM OF HIM AND OTHER ANCESTORS?

MOST DEFINITELY I THINK MY FATHER LIKE MANY OF THE FATHERS IN OUR TOWN, IN SOME ACADEMIC RENDERINGS, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED A WORKING PES ACT.

HE WAS A COAL MINER.

MY GRANDMOTHER ON BOTH SIDES, MY GRANDMOTHERS WERE SHARE CROPPERS AND MY MOTHER WENT TO THE TEND GRADE WITH SHE MARRIED DAD WHEN SHE WAS 16 YEARS OLD IN 1938, SO NEITHER OF MY PARENTS GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL.

BUT THROUGH THE GRACE OF GOD AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HELP MEADE, ALEX HAILEY SAID IF YOU SEE A FROG SITTING ON A BOWL, SOMEBODY PICKED IT UP AND PUT IT THERE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE HELPED ME IN MANY WAYS AND IT WAS-- IT CAUGHT ME BEST A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN OUR OLDEST SISTER, PEGGY, GOD REST HER SOUL, WE HAD BROUGHT HER REMAINS BACK TO HARLAN COUNTY TO INTER HER ASHES AT THE FOOT OF OUR PARENTS.

SO MY CHILDREN WERE THERE, MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS CHILDREN WERE THERE, SO THAT SECOND GENERATION, I WAS LOOKING AROUND, THERE WERE 18 OR 20 OF THEM THERE I HAVE THREE NIECES THAT GRADUATED FROM HAMPTON, MY DAUGHTER WENT TO SMELLMAN, SOMEONE WENT TO M.I.T., MOOREHOUSE.

ONE NEPHEW HAS AN UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE FROM STANFORD AND MASTER'S DEGREE, MBA FROM COLUMBIA AND WE HAVE PEOPLE WITH DOCTORAL POST DOCS AT DUKE, SO YEAH, I THINK DAD WOULD HAVE SAID, I THINK HE WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE IT BUT CONSEEM TOO SURPRISED.

HE JUST LACKED CREDENTIALS BUT HE READ A LOT.

>> Renee: AND THE OPPORTUNITY.

>> HE DID NOT HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY, THAT'S RIGHT.

AND AS I HEARD HIM SAY SEVERAL TIMES IN MATERIALS OF THE OPPORTUNITIES HE DID NOT GET BECAUSE OF THE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST BLACK COAL MINERS, HE WOULD SAY I WOULD BE A BOSS IF I WAS WHITE.

BECAUSE UNTIL MY FATHER AND SOME OTHER MEN IN THE EARLY 70s SUED THE COMPANY, THE UNITED STATES STEEL, UNTIL THEY SUED THEM, THEY WERE NOT PROMOTED TO FOREMAN LEVELS.

I THINK HE WOULD BE VERY HAPPY, AS WILL PARENTS WOULD BE.

YOU KNOW A GUY HERE IN TOWN, P.G.

PEOPLES, WE GRADUATED COLLEGE AT U.K.

HERE AND SO P.G.

IS FROM A FAMILY OF 10 JUST LIKE ME AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE I KNOW WHO DON'T LIVE IN EASTERN KENTUCKY ANYMORE BECAUSE MINING DECLINED, YOU KNOW, BUT LOUISVILLE, LEXINGTON, JUST LIKE I HEARD HARRY SAY ONE TIME THAT PEOPLE FROM EASTERN KENTUCKY CAME AND TOOK OVER CENTRAL KENTUCKY AND NEVER FIRED A SHOT THAT WAS HIS, THAT THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME OUT OF HAZARD, WHO HAVE COME OUT OF PRESTONSBURG.

OUT OF PIKEVILLE.

BLACKS AND WHITES OUT OF THAT AREA, I THINK, CAME WITH A CERTAIN VALUE SYSTEM, A CERTAIN RESILIENCY THAT SAYS I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS WORLD BUT THERE IS NOBODY IN THIS WORLD THAT CAN CONVINCE ME THAT I CAN'T DO WHAT ANYBODY CAN DO.

>> Renee: INTERESTING BECAUSE THIS ISN'T YOUR FIRST BOOK, THE HARLAN RENAISSANCE ABOUT BLACKS IN APPALACHIA AND ALEX HAILEY WHO I MENTIONED AND YOU EVOKED AGAIN, WE REMEMBER HIM FROM ROOTS IF NO ONE ELSE CAN REMEMBER THAT, BUT YOU SAY-- YOU QUOTE HIM IN THE BOOK SAYING BILL, NOBODY CAN WRITE THE RIGHT BOOK ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE IN APPALACHIA COAL TOWNS EXCEPT YOU.

NOBODY WILL.

YOU'VE GOT TO WANT TO WRITE IT AND KNOW JUST HOW TO WRITE IT YOU EVEN ADMIT THE FIRST STAB WAS STATISTICS, ET CETERA.

BUT THIS IS HEART AND SOWM RIGHT HERE.

>> QUITE A DIFFERENCE AND IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME BECAUSE I STARTED ON THE BOOK YOU ARE HOLDING 30 YEARS AGO PROBABLY.

JUST TONS AND TONS OF NOTES LYING AROUND, INTERVIEWED A LOT OF PEOPLE, AND SO IT'S KIND OF WHAT MY FRIEND POET CHARLIE ROWELL WOULD SAY, IT'S A MIXTURE OF A LOT OF THINGS.

SOME IS HISTORY BECAUSE I WANT MY BOOK HOPEFULLY, LET'S PRETENT THAT HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS IN THE UNITED STATES WOULD NOT BE FULLY EDUCATED IF THEY DID NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE MASS MIGRATION OF BLACK PEOPLE OUT OF THE AMERICAN EAST COAST ALONG THE ATLANTIC COTE R COAST AND THEY MOVED INTO NEW YORK CITY IN THE 19 20S.

IT WAS CALLED THE HARLEM RENAISSANCE.

AND THAT WAS THE VERY EPITOME, THE VERY SUMMIT OF BLACK LIFE AND CULTURE JUST BEFORE THE ADD CONVENIENT OF THE GREAT DEPRESSION: SIMILARLY THAT SCHOOL STUDENTS IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY AT LEAST WILL BECOME FAMILIAR WITH HARLAN, KENTUCKY, BECAUSE IT REPRESENTED THE EPITOME OF THE MIGRATION OF BLACKS OUT OF ALABAMA.

THE HEART OF DIXIE, BIRMINGHAM, HUNTSVILLE, SCOTTSBORO, JASPER, ALABAMA, THEY ALL CAME RIGHT THROUGH THE CUMBERLAND GAP IN THE SAME PERIOD PEOPLE WERE GOING INTO HARLEM, THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS WERE COMING INTO HARLAN COUNTY.

>> Renee: FOR WHAT REASON?

>> BECAUSE THE COAL MINING COMPANIES, PARTICULARLY THE UNITED STATES STEEL, WHICH WAS AT THAT TIME, AT THE TURN OF THE 20th CENTURY, WAS THE LARGEST COMPANY IN THE WORLD U.S. STEEL OWNED BY JP MORGAN ANDREW CARNEGIE, AMERICA'S PREMIER INDUSTRIALISTS AND WE WERE ON THE EDGE OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR AND COAL WAS THE ELEMENT THAT DROVE THE PRODUCTION OF IRON AND STEEL STEEL, UNITED STATES STEEL SO THESE BLACK WORKERS AND THEIR WHITE COMPATRIOTS WHO WERE BROUGHT OVER FROM ELLIS ISLAND INTO THE ALLEGANY OF PENNSYLVANIA OVER TO WEST VIRGINIA AND THEN INTO KENTUCKY.

SO IT WAS ALL A PART OF A MASS MIGRATION OF PEOPLE THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO AMERICAN HISTORY.

AND I SAW THIS WONDERFUL GRAPHIC IN TODAY'S LEXINGTON HERALD BY-- I THOUGHT IT WAS PIP.

>> Renee: JOEL?

>> I IT WAS A GUY NAMED BEN IT AND IT SHOWED AN OPEN BOOK WITH NO WRITING ON THE BOOK AND THE CAPTION SAID CRITICAL RACE THEORY PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO KNOW SOME OF THE DYNAMICS OF AMERICAN HISTORY I THINK MY BOOK HELPS TO FILL THAT PAGE PARTICULARLY ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE IN THE APPALACHIAN SOUTH AND SOUTHERN WEST VIRGINIA, EASTERN KENTUCKY, EAST TENNESSEE AND SOUTHWEST VIRGINIA.

: >> Renee: AND HAVE YOU SAID IN THE COAL MINES EVERYBODY WAS BLACK: >> YEAH EVERYBODY WAS BLACK.

AND IN THAT TIME, IT WASN'T-- THERE WERE ALL KIND OF DIVERSITY, THAT IN PERRY COUNTY, LETCHER COUNTY AND NOSE SOUTHEASTERN COUNTIES, THERE WAS FAIRLY GOOD AMOUNT OF DIVERSITY, AFRICAN-AMERICAN FOLK FOR MANY DECK EIGHTS.

>> IT DISAPPOINTS SOME PEOPLE WHEN I SAY IT, AND I'M SORRY I HAVE TO SOMETIMES USE THE WORD BLACK AND WHITE GRAPHICALLY BECAUSE ALL THE SENSIBILITIES THESE DAYS ABOUT PEOPLE NOT HEARING CERTAIN PHRASES BUT I DON'T MIND SAYING IT RIGHT NOW AND THAT IS WHEN I CAME TO THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY, I WAS 20 YEARS OLD IN 1966, ROUGHLY 50 YEARS AGO.

I WILL BE 76 MY NEXT BIRTHDAY AND WHEN I GOT TO HAGAN HALL DOWN HERE ON ROSE STREET, RIGHT DOWN THE STREET FROM HERE I IMMEDIATELY RAN DOWN THE HALLWAY, A PHONE I PUT A QUARTER IN MADE A COLLECT CALL TO MY MOM AND SAID I HAVE FOREVER SEEN THIS MANY WHITE PEOPLE IN MY LIFE.

>> Renee: WOW.

>> I HAD BROKEN UP IN LYNCH KENTUCKY THERE WERE ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE AND HERE IT WAS JUST PEOPLE FROM LOUISVILLE AND LEXINGTON AND BUT I DIDN'T SEE, HAD NEVER BEEN IN A PLACE WHERE THERE WERE ONLY THREE AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THE DORM.

I WAS GOING, WHERE ARE THE BLACK PEOPLE AROUND HERE?

I REMEMBER I RAN OUT THAT AFTERNOON,.

>> Renee: DID YOU CALL P.G.

>> HE WAS IN ANOTHER DORM AND WE ALL LEFT AND WENT DOWN TO CONSOLIDATED BAPTIST CHURCH TO SEE SOME BLACK PEOPLE BECAUSE WE WERE MAN, WHERE ARE WE?

SO THAT WHEN I WAS BORN IN HARLAN COUNTY AND GROWING UP IN THE 50s, THERE WERE 38 DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES.

38.

THAT'S LIKE CHICAGO ALMOST.

AND SO THERE WERE PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER EASTERN EUROPE.

PEOPLE FROM SPAIN, FAMILY LIVED ACROSS THE STREET FROM MY GRANDMOTHER NAMED COMACHI AND THEIR FAMILY CAME OUT OF NORTHERN MEXICO IN THE 50s TO WORK IN THE COAL MINE.

SO I HAD TO GET TO LEXINGTON TO GO OH THIS IS WHERE AMERICA REALLY LOOKS.

BUT FACT OF THE MATTER IS, NOW, 356 YEARS LATER, I LIVE IN WHAT IS CONSIDERED THE MOST RACIALLY AND ETHNIC DIVERSE SPOT ON THE EARTH IS HOUSTON TEXAS.

THE VERY DIVERSE CITY.

SO WHEN I TELL PEOPLE, I GREW UP IN HARLAN COUNTY, KENTUCKY.

IT WAS JUST LIKE THIS WHEN I WAS GROWING UP.

>> Renee: THEY SAY WHAT?

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.

>> I ALWAYS USED TO HEAR WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

THERE ARE NO BLACK PEOPLE IN HARLAN COUNTY.

>> Renee: AND THE BLACK PEOPLE THAT WERE FROM EASTERN KENTUCKY, HARLAN COUNTY, YOU CALL SUPERIOR.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE CARTER G. WOODSONS, F.E.

WALLER SMITHS, A NAME PEOPLE MAY NOT KNOW.

>> WHEN YOU CONSIDER THIS BROAD PLACE THAT IS CALLED APPALACHIA BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WHICH STRETCHES ROUGHLY FROM BIRMINGHAM TO POUGHKEEPSIE.

>> Renee: 14 STATES.

>> THERE ARE CERTAIN PARTS OF THE APPALACHIN REGION OUT OF WHICH CAME SOME OF THE MOST ICONIC NAMES IN AMERICAN HISTORY, BOOKER T. WASHINGTON WAS FROM WEST VIRGINIA.

THERE IS A CERTAIN PREACHER IN DALLAS THAT HAS A CHURCH CALLED THE POTTER HOUSE AND T.D.

JAKES I REMEMBER WHEN HE HAD A CHURCH WITH A DIRT FLOOR IN SOUTH CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA ROUGHLY 35 YEARS AGO.

I WENT INTO HIS CHURCH AND T.D.

WAS RIGHT THERE.

HE HAD PEOPLE FROM SOUTHERN WEST VIRGINIA.

I MENTIONED A MOMENT AGO BEFORE WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE POET NICKI JAY VANE WAS INFLUENCED BY MOUNTAIN PEOPLE SHE KNEW AROUND EASTERN TENNESSEE, ROBERTA FLAK FROM BLACK MOUNTAIN, NORTH CAROLINA, YOU KNOW.

I THINK OF NINA SIMONE, JUST LAST WEEK I WAS IN JOHNSON CITY, TENNESSEE, AND THEY ERECTED A STATUTE OF A MAN NAMED CHARLES S. JOHNSON, BORN AND RAISED IN BRISTOL TENNESSEE, EAST TENNESSEE RIGHT DOWN THE STREET FROM WHERE TENNESSEE ERNIEFORD USED TO SING.

AND HE BECAME THE FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT OF FISKE UNIVERSITY AND THAT WAS A BIG DEAL BECAUSE ALL OF THE PRIVATE HBCUs FOR THE FIRST 30 YEARS OR SO WOULD ONLY HIRE WHITE MALES TO BE THE PRESIDENT.

SO APPALACHIA HAS BEEN A NEST IN WHICH A LOT OF EGGS HAVE HATCHED, BUT NOBODY EVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT AS WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE SPACE AND THE PSYCHOLOGY AND UPBRINGING AND SOCIALIZATION OF PEOPLE IN THAT SPACE.

>> Renee: WE KNOW THERE HAVE BEEN LOTS OF NARRATIVES ABOUT APPALACHIA, EASTERN KENTUCKY, NOT JUST HILLBILLY BY VANCE, NORMAN, JAMES STILL, A LOT OF FOLKS THAT WE READ ABOUT THAT WE HAVE SHOWS ALL ABOUT HERE ON OUR NETWORK EVERY 20 OR SO YEARS, THERE IS A NARRATIVE CREATED.

HOW DOES YOUR WORK HOPE TO FIT IN THERE AND CHANGE THE NARRATIVE AND UNDO SOME OF THE THINGS WE'VE READ PREVIOUSLY.

>> WELL, IN ALL MODESTY, MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHOM YOU JUST NAMED GOING FROM HARRIET TO MY FRIEND-- >> Renee: THE CUMBERLANDS, RIGHT?

>> LOOK AT ALL AT HILLBILLY ALLERGY, LOOK AT 90% OF THE HUMANITIES JOURNALS, BOOKS, POETRY, NAME IT.

PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU GET INTO HISTORY, EXCEPT FOR THE SCHOLARS WHO TAUGHT FOR MANY YEARS, MOST OF THEM GLOSSED OVER THE PRESENCE OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN PEOPLE.

IT'S LIKE THEY WEREN'T EVEN THERE.

AND WHAT I THINK I'VE DONE IS TO FILL THAT VOID BECAUSE THIS WAS NOT ONLY JUST AN EXERCISE FOR ME IN TERMS OF MY PROFESSIONAL INTEREST AS A SOCIOLOGY-- AS A SOCIOLOGIST BUT IT WAS VERY PERSONAL BECAUSE WHEN I WOULD HEAR ABOUT PEOPLE WHO WOULD BEGIN THEIR NOTIONS THAT THERE ARE NO BLACK PEOPLE IN APPALACHIA, MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS HOW DARE YOU IGNORE THE EXISTENCE OF MY GREAT GRANDMOTHERS, MY GRANDMOTHERS WERE BORN INTO SLAVERY IN THE 1850s IN THE HEART OF SOUTHWEST VIRGINIA AND JUST BECAUSE YOU JUST DISCOVERED THEM, YOU KNOW, DIDN'T MEAN THEY HAVEN'T BEEN THERE.

SO I TOOK IT PERSONALLY AT ONE LEVEL.

SO THIS WORK, MY WORK HAS BEEN THE INTERSECTION BETWEEN SOMETHING VERY PERSONAL AND MY PROFESSIONAL WORK SO THE FIRST PERSON, I HAVE BEEN A ONE TRICK PONY ON THIS FOR 50 YEARS NOW.

>> Renee: IT'S GOOD TO BE THAT IN THIS CASE EVEN THE TERM APPALACHIA.

BUREAUCRATS USE THAT, SCHOLARS USE THE TERM.

HAS IT ALWAYS BEEN EMBRACED, THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THESE STATES AND COUNTIES, HAVE THEY ALWAYS EMBRACED THAT TERM?

IS IT BECAUSE THERE IS MONEY ATTACHED TO THE TERM APPALACHIA NOW WE KNOW THERE ARE RESOURCES THAT CAN COME TOWARD A REGION BEING A PERSISTENTLY IN POVERTY, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

>> YOU KNOW, SOME SOME WAY, THE TAG, THE LABEL, THE BRAND IF YOU WILL APPALACHIA, HAS THE NUANCE OF CREOLE, CAJUN EVERYBODY HAS REQUIRED IN ORDER TO STAND OUT THEMSELVES, HAVE YOU TO HAVE AN OTHER TO CONTRAST YOURSELF SO THAT APPALACHIA BECAME AMERICA'S OTHER, YOU KNOW.

IN FACT MICHAEL HARRINGTON I THINK WAS HIS NAME AROUND THE TIME HARRIET CAULDER PUBLISHED NIGHT COMES TO THE CUMBERLAND.

HE PUBLISHED A BOOK CALLED THE OTHER AMERICA.

LOOKING AT THESE POOR WHITES IN THE MOUNTAINS OF THE SOUTH, LINDA BANES JOHNSON WENT TO MARTIN COUNTY IN INEZ COUNTY.

>> Renee: AND DECLARED THE WAR ON POVERTY.

>> AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY CAME UP WITH THE APPALACHIAN REGIONAL COMMISSION.

SO THAT THE VERY PHRASE APPALACHIA IS ALMOST LIKE THE SKIN A SNAKE SHEDS EVERY YEAR AND NO MATTER HOW HARD WE TRY TO TAKE IT OFF, WE ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM ANYBODY ELSE EXCEPT FOR THE UNIQUE GEOPHYSICAL SPACE.

GIVE US A BREAK.

NOW WE ARE AT THE POINT WHERE I THINK MY BOOK CONCLUDES ON THE IDEA THAT ALL OF AMERICA IS APPALACHIA ALL OF A SUDDEN BECAUSE WHAT SEPARATED APPALACHIA WAS HOW OUTSIDE ECONOMIC INTERESTS, ELITES FROM ONE PART OF THE COUNTRY CAME AND CAPTURED THE NATURAL RESOURCES IN APPALACHIA AND, YOU KNOW, THEY TOOK THE MONEY OUT AND LEFT THE POVERTY IN AND IT WENT ON DECADES AFTER DECADES SO NOW WE ARE DOWN TO A PLACE WHERE SUCH DOMINANCE FROM OUTSIDE INFLUENCES, IT HAPPENS THROUGHOUT AMERICA.

I MEAN WAL-MART JUST ISN'T THE LARGEREST EMPLOYER IN SOUTHWEST VIRGINIA AND EASTERN KENTUCKY.

WHEN WAL-MART LEAVES ANY SPACE ANY DAYS, IT DISLOCATES THE WAY COAL COMPANIES LEFT THE MOUNTAINS.

WE SEE IT HAPPENING EVERYWHERE.

ONE OF MY NEPHEWS I MENTIONED A WHILE AGO IN MOUNTAIN CITY, CALIFORNIA IN THE SILICON VALLEY AND IRONICALLY, SILICA IS WHAT GIVES COAL MINERS BLACK LUNG BUT IN THE SILICON VALLEY, IT'S DOMINATED BY A COMPANY CALLED GOOGLE, YOU KNOW, AND EVERYBODY KNOWS IT'S A VERY DIVERSE PLACE OUT THERE.

THEY HAVE ENGINEERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, BUT PEOPLE ALSO KNOW THEY'RE LOOKING AROUND NOW SAYING THESE COMPANIES HAVE A LOT OF INFLUENCE OVER US SCU BERG-- ZUCKERBERG IS ALWAYS TRYING SAY TO WE'VE GOT YOU COVERED AND SO MANY OF THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES HAVE BEGUN TO MAKE SHAKY THE VERY NOTION OF WESTERN DEMOCRACY BY THE PICTURES THEY PAINTED SIMILARLY WHEN YOU ARE IN A COAL TOWN LIKE WE WERE WHERE THE MOUNTAINS ARE SO HIGH ANYTHING COULD GO ON IN COAL TOWN SOMETIMES.

THEY WERE GATED COMMUNITIES.

THEY RAN THEM THAT WAY.

SO PHILOSOPHICALLY, AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT.

THE PROBLEM THAT RESULT WHEN ALL THESE COAL COMPANIES LEFT THE MOUNTAINS, WHEN I WAS IN HAZARD AND HARLAN THERE IS STILL THE SCOURGE OF OXYCONTIN AND METHAMPHETAMINES AND PEOPLE TRYING TO ADJUST TO JOBLESSNESS.

THAT'S ALL IT IS.

SIMILARLY, PEOPLE IN CHICAGO AND IN DETROIT AND AMERICA'S INNER CITIES ARE TRYING TO ADJUST TO JOBLESSNESS AND THE GLOBALIZATION OF THE ECONOMY WHICH LEFT A LOT OF PEOPLE BEHIND BECAUSE MY FATHER WAS ABLE TO WORK 50 YEARS WITH A THIRD GRADE EDUCATION AND RAISE THEN CHILDREN.

WELL, ALL OF MESH, IT'S HARD TO DO THAT NOWADAYS.

SO APPALACHIA HAS A LOT OF LESSONS FOR THE REST OF AMERICA HOW NOT TO LOSE YOUR HEAD, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE COMPANY LEAVES YOU.

AND WHEN LEADERS DON'T ADDRESS THE FORGOTTEN AND THOSE LEFT BEHIND AND MAKES ROOM FOR A VOICE THAT WILL PERVADE MORE DISCORD, RIGHT THAT WILL SPREAD MORE DISCORD.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO WHAT YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, CRITICAL RACE THEORY WHICH DOESN'T MEAN WHAT PEOPLE THINK IT MEANS AND IS NOT TAUGHT IN KENTUCKY PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND FEW PLACES ELSEWHERE IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, UNIVERSITIES IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

BECAUSE DO YOU TAKE HISTORICAL AND ALL YOUR WORK, YOUR BODY OF WORK HAS BEEN ABOUT PRESERVING HISTORY AND COMMUNITIES AND IDENTITY AND CULTURE AND PLACE, THE PERMANENCE OF THAT AND HOW WE LOOK AT WHO WE ARE, WHERE WE'VE COME AND WHERE TO GO, WHEN WE LOOK AT TERMS LIKE CRITICAL RACE THEORY, HOW DO YOU SEE THAT BEING DEBUNKED?

IF WERE YOU TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT WHAT IS REAL AND WHAT IS NOT, WHEN IT COMES TO OUR NATION'S IDENTITY AND OUR NEED TO KNOW EACH OTHER AND OUR BACKGROUNDS, HOW WOULD YOU DEBUNK THE WHOLE, WHAT YOU MIGHT PERCEIVE AS THE FALSIFIED TRUTH AROUND CRITICAL RACE THEORY?

>> WELL, I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS A PROFESSOR HERE AT U.K. AND WHEN PEOPLE WOULD COME INTO MY OFFICE, I HAD THIS 8 X 10 OF MALCOLM X ON MY DESK.

MY COLLEAGUES WOULD LOOK AT IT.

THEY WOULDN'T SAY A WORD.

IT WAS THEIR PROBLEM NOT MINE.

IT WAS BRILLIANT.

MALCOLM X ONCE SAID OF ALL OF THE SUBJECTS IN THE SCHOOL CURRICULUM, HISTORY REWARDS OUR STUDIES THE MOST.

BECAUSE EVERY POLL SIGNIFICANTS, EVEN POLITICIANS WHO ARE NOT SURE WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, ALWAYS RELY ON HISTORICAL PRECEDENTS BECAUSE THAT BECOMES A COMPASS POINT.

IF YOU CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT HAPPENED HERE, PART OF THE BOOK, MAYBE NOBODY WILL EVER SAY WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE BLACK PEOPLE OF HARLAN COUNTY, SOMEBODY MIGHT HOLD UP MY BOOK AND SAY THIS GUY WROTE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED SO ONCE WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PEOPLE OF LAR LAN-- HARLAN COUNTY, THE EVOLUTION OF THAT PLATES AND BY HARLAN NOT JUST REFERRING TO THE COUNTY BUT ALSO A 100-MILE RADIUS THAT EXTENDS INTO WEST VATUCKEY BECAUSE IT TAKES IN BEST VIRGINIA AND KENTUCKY.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE PLACES, POLITICS, EDUCATION, RELIGION IN THOSE PLACES, NAMELY THE HUMAN ENDEAVOR.

WHEN YOU FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED AND YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THEN YOU GET A PRETTY GOOD GRASP ON WHY IT HAPPENED THAT WAY.

WHY DID IT HAPPEN THAT WAY SO WE DON'T FIND OURSELVES IN THE PLACE OF REPEATING THE OLD THINGS, IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED OR ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT HAPPENED, YOU ARE SUBJECT TO REPEAT IT AND NOT MANY OF US WHO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY THINGS HAPPENED GOING ALL THE WAY BACK TO 1619, WHEN WE GO BACK THERE AND SAY HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED AND BRING IT FORWARD, WELL, THEN YOU CAN SAY WHERE WE ARE IN 2021 IN THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T SURPRISE ME BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THEN.

I KNOW WHY IT HAPPENED THEN AND NOW I SEE WHY CERTAIN FORCES ARE ATTEMPTING TO SAY IF WE DON'T DO THIS BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE SEE HISTORY AND WHAT HAPPENS PARTICULARLY IN POLITICS AS A ZERO SUM GAME AND THEY'RE SAYING IF WE, THIS PARTY THIS GROUP, IF BEE CONCEDE THIS, THAT MEANS THEY'RE GOING TO GAIN AND IF EVERY TIME THEY GAIN WE LOSE, AND YOU GO IT INTO THE ZERO SUM GAME, IT IS WHY YOU HAVE SUCH SPLIT POLITICS AS WE HAVE IN AMERICA NOWADAYS AND WE SEE IT WITH THE MOST RECENT ELECTIONS JUST YESTERDAY, THE GUBERNATORIAL ELECTIONS CERTAINLY THE ONES COMING UP.

SO ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T THINK RACE IS A CRITICAL MATTER IN AMERICA IS DEEP INTO SELF DENIAL.

AS THEY SAY, DENIAL IS NOT JUST A RIVER IN EGYPT.

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE, TOO MANY PEOPLE AND I THINK IT'S CRITICAL IN OUR SCHOOL CHILDREN, IF WE DON'T TEACH THEM CERTAIN THINGS, MY GRANDCHILDREN, WHO RELATIVE TIVOLI-- RELATIVELY 14 IRVE.

WHEN THEY'RE 50, IF WE DON'T STOP KIDDING OURSELVES ABOUT THE HISTORY, IT WILL BE THE SAME WAY THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW WITH THOSE WHO ARE IN DENIAL ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.

SO IT'S ALL INTERCONNECTED AND I AM AN INDUSTRIAL STRENGTH OPTIMIST BECAUSE I THINK THAT ULTIMATELY DESPITE THIS PLACE WE ARE AT RIGHT NOW, I BELIEVE WE WILL EMERGE AS A COUNTRY AND STILL BE ABLE TO SAY WE ARE A BIKE ONLIGHT TO THE WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO DEMOCRACY BUT WE ARE IN THE SHADOWS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THE REST OF THE WORLD IS LOOKING AT AMERICA RIGHT NOW AS THOUGH WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE THEY DOING OVER THERE?

THEY TOLD US THEY WERE THE STANDARD BEARER FOR DEMOCRACY AND SOMEHOW WE HAVE SEEN THINGS CHANGE SO MUCH IN THE LAST 10 YEARS IN TERMS OF THE WAY WE SEEM TO BE HEADED BUT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE IN OUR CULTURE WHO DO NOT WISH TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFT THAT HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE.

IT'S NOT COMING.

IT HAS TAKEN PLACE.

>> Renee: THE BABIES BORN NOW, HALF OF THEM ARE OF MINORITY PERSUASION.

IT'S THE BROWNING OF AMERICA.

>> WHEN YOU TALK-- I LIVE IN TEXAS AND THAT'S WHY TEXAS IS AHEAD OF THE GAME ON GOING BACKWARDS BECAUSE TEXAS MANY POLITICIANS IN TEXAS WAIT A MINUTE, DON'T YOU SEE WHERE THIS IS GOING?

AND RATHER THAN COMING TOGETHER IN SOCIAL SPACE AND CANOPY WHERE WE CAN SAY OKAY, HERE ARE THE POLITICS, HOW DO WE YOU KNOW, HOW DO WE DO THIS, THERE ARE MANY WHO WOULD RATHER NOT BE DIPLOMATIC AND SIT DOWN AND TALK BUT REGARDS GET US FURTHER AND FURTHER APART.

>> Renee: THIS IS THE WISDOM OF A Dr. WILLIAM BILL TURNER ALL OF US HAVE COME TO KNOW FROM THE MANY YEARS HE WAS IN KENTUCKY WHETHER IT WAS K STATE OR U.K. OR BEREA, WE THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR WORK.

THE HARLAN RENAISSANCE.

WE HOPE YOU'LL PICK THAT UP AND WE HOPE WILL YOU JOIN US AGAIN NEXT WEEK.

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