♪♪ >> COMING UP NEXT ON ARIZONA HORIZON, A LOOK AT THE WHITE HOUSE CONTROL OF THE U.S.

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

HAW WEST-MEC PLANS TO USE 415 MILLION IN BONDS APPROVED BY VOTERS.

THERE ARE A LOT MORE SPECIES OF MAN MAMMALS THAN PROFESSIONAL BROUGHT.

THAT'S STORIES AND MORE ON ARIZONA HORIZON.

AND MADE POSSIBLE BY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THE FRIENDS OF PBS, MEMBERS OF YOUR PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION.

>> Ted: GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO ARIZONA HORIZON, I'M TED SIMONS, THE U.S.

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN TRANSFORMED UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHAT WAS AN INDEPENDENT LAW ENFORCEMENT IS NOW TAKING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, INDEPENDENCE AND IMPARTIALITY PRETTY MUCH GONE.

FOR MORE ON THIS, WE WELCOME FORMER U.S.

ATTORNEY PAUL CHARLTON.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, TED.

>> Ted: IS THAT CULTURE OF INDEPENDENCE AND IMPARTIALITY, DO YOU THINK IT'S GONE?

>> I THINK IT'S GREATLY IMPAIRED AND GREATLY DAMAGED.

TED, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THIS GOING BACK TO 1973 THE SATURDAY NIGHT MASSACRE WHERE ELLIOTT RICHARDSON REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH THE WHITE HOUSE, RICHARD NIXON TOLD HIM FIRE THE PROSECUTOR WHO WAS INVESTIGATING ME AND ELLIOTT RICHARDSON REFUSED THAT ORDER AND LOST HIS JOB AND SO DID OTHER INDIVIDUALS IN THE DEPARTMENT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO DO WHAT WAS RIGHT.

SINCE THAT PERIOD OF TIME, SINCE THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION, THERE'S BEEN A CULTURE, A BELIEF WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AN INSTITUTION SEPARATE AND APART FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, YES, THERE ARE CERTAIN POLICIES THAT YOU MIGHT SEEK TO ENFORCE, ENVIRONMENTAL CRIMES OF ONE ADMINISTRATION, GUN CRIMES IN ANOTHER ADMINISTRATION, BUT NEVER TO PURSUE WHAT NIXON HAD THEN WHICH WAS AN ENEMIES LIST OR AN OVERT LIST OF INDIVIDUALS WHO THIS PRESIDENT DOESN'T LIKE.

>> PAM BONDI, SHE RUNS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

SHE'S A DIRECTOR THERE.

SHE TELLS PEOPLE, SHE TOLD FOLKS IN THE DEPARTMENT, YOU ARE ENFORCING THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA, THE PRESIDENT'S POLICY.

I FIND THAT FASCINATING AND I FIND IT UNBELIEVABLE, IN SOME WAYS.

>> IT IS DISAPPOINTING BECAUSE WHAT IT MEANS IN EXECUTION, FOR EXAMPLE, IS THAT ERIC ADAMS, WHO IS NOW THE OUTGOING MAYOR OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK, HAD BEEN CHARGED WITH A NUMBER OF COUNTS RELATING TO PUBLIC CORRUPTION.

THERE WERE PROSECUTORS THERE, INCLUDING THE U.S.

ATTORNEY IN MANHATTAN AND THE PROSECUTORS THERE WHO WERE TOLD BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, THE PRESIDENT WANTS YOU TO DISMISS THE CHARGES AGAINST THE MAYOR, ERIC ADAMS.

THEY REFUSED THAT ORDER FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND WERE EITHER FIRED OR HAD TO RESIGN.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER PROSECUTORS WHO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE PROSECUTION OF JANUARY 6TH RIOTERS, AND THEY HAVE LOST THEIR JOB BECAUSE THEY RAISED THEIR HANDS AND SAID, I WILL DO THIS JOB BECAUSE I THINK IT IS A JUST AND CORRECT PROSECUTION.

SO, IF YOU ARE REFUSING TO DO THE BIDDING OF THE PRESIDENT OR YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING WHICH THE PRESIDENT SEES AS INCONSISTENT WITH HIS POLITICAL VIEWS, YOU LOSE YOUR JOB OR ARE COMPELLED TO RESIGN FROM YOUR JOB AND THAT IS ANATHEMA, COMPLETELY INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT WE, ALL OF US, WOULD WANT FROM A CAREER PROSECUTOR.

>> Ted: AND UNDER THE DIRECTION, AGAIN, OF PAM BONDI, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.

IT'S THE PRESIDENT TELLING HER, IT SOUNDS LIKE THE PRESIDENT TELLING HER WHAT TO DO AND SHE'S TELLING THE RANK AND FILE, DO IT.

>> THE MOST RECENT EXAMPLE WAS THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES SAID I WANT YOU TO TAKE ALL DEMOCRATS WHO ARE REFLECTED IN THE EPSTEIN FILES AND BEGIN AN INVESTIGATION OF THE DEMOCRATS.

THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS, IF THERE IS A CRIME, WE DON'T CONSIDER WHETHER YOU ARE A DEMOCRAT OR WHETHER YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN.

WE FIRST IDENTIFY THE CRIME AND THEN WE LOOK FOR THE INDIVIDUAL.

IT IS AN INCORRECT ASPECT OF THE LAW AND PROSECUTION TO SAY I'M GOING TO IDENTIFY THE INDIVIDUAL AND THEN LOOK FOR THE CRIME AND EVEN IF YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THAT THE PRESIDENT HOLDS A POLITICAL VIEWPOINT THAT IS SOMETHING YOU LIKE, THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH YOUR OWN VIEWPOINT, IT'S IMPORTANT TO BE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT HE ISN'T ALWAYS GOING TO HOLD THE OFFICE OF THE WHITE HOUSE THAT THERE WILL BE ANOTHER OCCUPANT OF THAT WHITE HOUSE SOME DAY AND IF THE CULTURE AND THE WAY WE WANT TO THINK ABOUT PROSECUTORS IS THAT THE PROSECUTORS IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE PURSE WHOEVER IT IS, THE OCCUPANT OF THE WHITE HOUSE DOESN'T LIKE, THEN WE ARE ALL OF US PUTTING OURSELVES AT RISK OF BEING PROSECUTED BY SOMEONE WHO HAS A VIEW OF THE WORLD OR POLITICS THAT ARE DIFFERENT THAN OUR OWN.

>> Ted: YEAH, YOU ORIGINALLY TALKED ABOUT FINDING FACTS TO FIT THE NARRATIVE IS WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE.

WE HAVE SEEN A NUMBER OF PEOPLE FIRED IN THE DEPARTMENT, A NUMBER OF-- LOTS OF RESIGNATION IS GOING ON.

THE INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE THAT LEAVES THE BUILDING WHEN THEY LEAVE THE BUILDING, HOW BIG A DEAL IS THAT?

>> THAT'S A BEAUTIFUL DESCRIPTION OF EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.

IT IS INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE, EMBRACING OF A CULTURE WE'RE HERE TO PURSUE JUSTICE AND NOT THE POLITICAL AND ONCE THOSE PEOPLE LEAVE AND ARE REPLACED BY PEOPLE THAT UNDERSTAND THAT THAT'S THE ETHIC BY WHICH PROSECUTORS ARE SUPPOSED TO PURSUE CASES.

REMEMBER, TED, TO STATE THE OBVIOUS, THESE ARE PEOPLE IN WHOM WE TRUST WITH THE DISCRETION TO REMOVE US FROM SOCIETY, PUT NUSS PRISON, IN SOME CASES TAKE OUR VERY LIVES WITH THE DEATH PENALTY, THEY HAVE TO HAVE AN APOLITICAL VIEW OF PROSECUTION.

IF WE THINK OR ALLOW THAT OTHER PEOPLE, INCLUDING OCCUPANTS OF THE WHITE HOUSE, CAN PURSUE US BECAUSE OF OUR POLITICAL BELIEFS THAN WE ARE PUTTING OURSELVES AT RISK OF SUFFERING A CRIMINAL PENALTY, TIME IN PRISON OR WORSE.

>> Ted: AND YET, THOSE WHO SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT AND KNOW THAT THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF WOULD SAY THIS, THAT INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE THAT I MENTIONED, THAT'S THE SWAMP, THAT'S THE DEEP STATE.

>> IT'S AN INCORRECT VIEWPOINT.

A NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS, INCLUDING THOSE PROSECUTING ERIC ADAMS WERE CONSERVATIVE, VETERANS OF THE WAR AND A FORMER LAW CLERK FROM ANTONIN SCALIA, HE HAD TO RESIGN IN THE FACE OF AN ORDER TO DISMISS THE CORRUPTION CHARGES AGAINST ERIC ADAMS.

THAT'S THE KIND OF KNOWLEDGE, THE KIND OF PERSON THAT WE ARE LOSING AND, TED, THE OTHER ASPECT IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, IT WILL TAKE A GENERATION TO REPLACE THOSE INDIVIDUALS THAT WE HAVE LOST.

>> Ted: AND I WAS GOING TO ASK ABOUT THAT.

IT SOUNDS LIKE PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT'S LITERALLY FLIPPED THE CULTURE AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

IF IT HAS, HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO FLIP IT BACK?

>> IF THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO LEAVE ARE REPLACED BY PEOPLE THAT WE CANNOT BELIEVE OR CONFIDE OR HAVE TRUST IN, THAT THEY WILL EXECUTE THEIR OBLIGATIONS TO PURSUE JUSTICE AND NOT A POLITICAL END, IT WILL TAKE A NUMBER OF YEARS, PERHAPS A WHOLE GENERATION OF PROSECUTORS TO REMOVE THOSE PEOPLE OR SEE THOSE PEOPLE LEAVE UNTIL WE CAN BRING THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE BACK TO WHERE IT OUGHT TO BE.

IT TOOK A FAIR AMOUNT OF TIME AFTER THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION TO PUT IN PLACE THE KIND OF DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, SO SINCE THE 1970'S, WE'VE REALLY HAD SOME MINOR FAILINGS IN THAT REGARD.

SOME INSIGNIFICANT FALLBACKS, BUT BY AND LARGE A DEPARTMENT THAT WE CAN HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF TRUST.

>> Ted: YET, SUPPORTERS OF THE PRESIDENT AND THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, THEY WILL SAY THAT THEY ARE DOING EXACTLY WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DID, AND THE BIDEN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DID, IN GOING AFTER DONALD TRUMP.

THEY HAVE A POINT.

>> IT'S AN UNFORTUNATE ARGUMENT BECAUSE EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE THAT IS TRUE IT DOESN'T MAKE WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY GOOD OR RIGHT, AND IT WON'T MAKE WHAT'S MAPPING IN THE FUTURE GOOD OR RIGHT IF WE CONSTANTLY FALL BACK TO WHAT SOMEBODY DID TO US IN THE PAST.

WE NEED TO HAVE A DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT'S FORWARD-LOOKING AND THAT WILL ONLY DO WHAT IS RIGHT TO SEEK THE FACTS, AN I APLAY THE LAW AND SEEK AN APPROPRIATE OUTCOME ON THAT THINKING.

IF WE'RE THINKING WE COULD DO VENGEANCE PROSECUTION BECAUSE WE WERE SOMEHOW HARMED IN THE PAST THEN WE'RE DOING ALL OF US A DISSERVICE.

>> Ted: HAVE WE EVER SEEN A JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, PRIOR EVEN TO WATERGATE, THIS ALIGNED WITH THE WHITE HOUSE?

IT'S BASICALLY HIS LAW FIRM RIGHT NOW.

>> IT HAS BECOME IN A VERY REAL WAY, A PERSONAL LAW FIRM, BUT DIFFERENT FROM A LAW FIRM IN THE SENSE THAT THEY HAVE AUTHORITY TO IMPOSE CRIMINAL PENALTIES.

>> Ted: YEAH, AND WE'VE SEEN SEEN THAT BEFORE HAVE WE?

>> WE HAVEN'T.

NIXON HAD A SECRET LIST AND NIXON DID THINGS QUIETLY, COVERTLY.

HERE, THIS IS VERY OPENLY DISCUSSED AND PAM BONDI, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL SEEMS TO BE EMBRACING THIS ASPECT OF THE EXTRAORDINARY CHANGE IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

>> Ted: LAST QUESTION.

A FORMER U.S.

ATTORNEY HERE SO YOU KNOW THE ATMOSPHERE, YOU KNOW THE CLIMATE, YOU KNOW THE MINDSET AND THE MOOD.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON WITH SOME OF THE CAREER FOLKS STICKING BY AND THEY'RE EITHER BOBBING AND WEAVING AROUND THE SLINGS AND ARROWS, IF YOU WILL, OR THEY'RE SAYING THIS IS WHAT I DO AND I'M GOING TO KEEP DOING IT UNTIL SOMEONE TELLS ME TO STOP.

WHAT IS THE MOOD, DO YOU THINK?

>> SO, I WOULD TELL YOU IS THAT PROSECUTORS, ALMOST WITHOUT EXCEPTION, AND THERE ARE SOME RARE EXCEPTIONS, ARE SELF-SELECTING PROFESSION.

YOU GO INTO THAT PROFESSION BECAUSE YOU WANT TO DO WHAT'S RIGHT AND A PROFESSION WHERE AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU CAN LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND SAY I DID THE RIGHT THING TODAY.

WHAT I HOPE IS THAT PROSECUTORS CURRENTLY THERE WILL STAY THERE.

WE NEED GOOD PEOPLE TO STAY IN PLACE AND WE NEED GOOD PEOPLE WHO WILL ATTEMPT TO INFLUENCE THEIR SUPERVISORS AND THE LEADERSHIP WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT THAT'S THE CULTURE THAT WE NEED TO EMBRACE BECAUSE IF THEY, TOO, LEAVE THEN WE ARE ALL THE MORE HARMED.

>> Ted: ALL RIGHT.

I TELL YOU WHAT, PAUL CHARLTON, FORMER U.S.

ATTORNEY.

WE ALWAYS BRING YOU ON WHEN THESE KINDS OF THINGS HAPPEN AND THIS KIND OF DIVISIVENESS IN AREAS WHERE THEY SHOULD NOT BE, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW.

I THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR INSIGHT AND AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, TED.

>> MARICOPA COUNTY VOTERS RECENTLY APPROVED $415 MILLION IN BONDS FOR THE EXPANSION OF THE WESTERN MARICOPA EDUCATION CENTER KNOWN AS WEST-MEC.

WEST-MEC IS A CAREER AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT WITH A NUMBER OF VALLEY CAMPUSES.

AS FOR THE NEWLY APPROVED FUNDS AND HOW THEY'LL BE PUT TO USE, WE ASKED WEST-MEC SUPERINTENDENT DR.

SCOTT SPER BEGUN AND MARILYN BAT MARILYNN BABYAR.

GIVE ME A BETTER VIEW OF WEST-MEC.

>> WE SERVE STUDENTS FROM OVER 130 SCHOOLS AND OUR GEOGRAPHIC FOOTPRINTS.

ALL OF OUR PROGRAMS WHICH MAY BE DIFFERENT FROM OTHER PROGRAMS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

ALL OF OUR PROGRAMS COME WITH WHAT WE CALL A HIGH VALUE CREDENTIAL AND THAT'S BEEN DETERMINED BY OUR BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY ADVISORY COUNCIL.

WHICH MEANS AT THAT STUDENTS CAN LEAVE OUR PROGRAMS AND GO THAT CAREER PATHWAY AND GO TO THE WORK THE NEXT DAY.

>> Ted: AND CAREER PROGRAMS AND THE WHOLE GAMUT?

>> WE HAVE NURSING, CNA, PHYSICAL THERAPY, COLLISION, AUTO TECH, WELDING, JUST A VARIETY OF PROGRAMS.

>> Ted: AND YOU WORK IN COOPERATION AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH BUSINESSES HOW?

HOW DOES THAT WORK?

>> SO, FOR US, WE REALLY SPEND A GREAT DEAL OF TIME LEARNING AND UNDERSTANDING WHO IS COMING TO THE VALLEY AND WHO ACTUALLY SITS IN THE VALLEY.

OUR PROGRAMS ENSURE THE PIPELINE OF THE PATHWAY THAT THEY SO CHOOSE CHOOSE.

WE UNDERSTAND WHAT BUSINESS INDUSTRY NEEDS ARE AND WHAT STUDENTS DESIRES ARE.

I CAN BUILD FACILITIES ALL DAY LONG, BUT IF I DON'T FILL THEM UP, I LOSE MONEY.

THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT GROUPS REALLY UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS AND WHERE WEST-MEC SITS IN THE ECO SYSTEM PROVIDING FOR THE WORK FORCE AND INDUSTRY.

>> Ted: AND AMAZON, GATORADE, THESE PLACES ARE PART OF IT?

>> ABSOLUTELY, AND TMC AND WE WORKED WITH SCOTT HOLMAN, AND WE WANT TO PARTNER.

HE SAYS YOU'VE GOT TO DO ONE THING FOR ME, ENGINEERS OFF THE FLOOR TO WRITE THE PROGRAM.

>> Ted: AND WHAT ARE THE BUSINESSES LOOKING FOR?

>> WELL, WE'RE THEIR PIPELINE, RIGHT?

I'M ALWAYS OUT THERE WORKING WITH THE HIGH SCHOOL COUNSELORS AND EDUCATING THEM THROUGH REALLY GOOD PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT IN THE AREA OF TSMC OR ENGINEERING, AUTO, WHATEVER THAT IS AND HELPING TO TEACH COUNSELORS HOW TO THEN TALK TO THEIR STUDENTS ABOUT THESE PROGRAMS.

>> Ted: YEAH, THIS $415 MILLION IN BOND, CONGRATULATIONS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Ted: A LITTLE SHORT, A CLOSE CALL IN THERE, BUT YOU GOT IT IN.

WHERE IS THAT MONEY GOING TO BE SPENT?

THAT'S A LOT OF EXPANSION.

LET ME GIVE YOU BACKGROUND.

EACH YEAR WE'RE PUSHING TO CLOSE TO 6,000 APPLICATIONS FOR THE PROGRAMS AND ONLY 2000 OPENINGS.

WE'LL CONTINUE TO GET MORE AND MORE KIDS APPLYING AND THE STATE DOESN'T PROVIDE TRANSPORTATION AND FUNDING FOR THAT.

IF THE STUDENTS COULD GET TO WEST-MEC WE WOULD PROBABLY SEEING THAT NUMBER EXPONENTIALLY.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE FOUR MORE CAMPUSES AND DOUBLE OUR CAPACITY TO PROBABLY OVER 6,000 STUDENTS BY THE YEAR '29.

>> Ted: ALL THE NEW MONEY AND NEW EXPANSION AND NEW OPPORTUNITY.

HOW DO YOU SEE IT?

>> IT'S SO EXCITING.

I MEET WITH FAMILIES AND STUDENTS AND COUNSELORS ALL DAY LONG, AND THEY ARE JUST EXCITED FOR THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THEIR STUDENTS TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THAT NEXT STEP, THEIR CAREER PATHWAY.

WE'RE DOING A LOT OF CAREER LITERACY IN THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS AND THE LOWER GRADES IN THE HIGH SCHOOL SO THE STUDENTS ARE READY FOR WHAT'S NEXT AND THEN THEY APPLY.

>> Ted: HAS THAT ALWAYS BEEN THE MISSION OF WEST-MEC, DOING THOSE THINGS?

>> IT HAS.

BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS IS THE CORNERSTONE OF WHO WEST-MEC IS.

>> Ted: AND THAT HAS IT CHANGED AND EVOLVED OVER THE YEARS OR IS IT PRETTY SOLID?

>> I THINK IT CONTINUES TO GROW EXPONENTIALLY.

THE QUALITY OF PRODUCT THAT WE PUT OUT THROUGH OUR PROGRAMS, SPEAK FOR ITSELF.

IF WE DIDN'T PRODUCE THE QUALITY OF STUDENTS THAT WE DO, NOBODY WOULD BE KNOCKING ON THE DOOR.

AND RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE KNOCKING ON THE DOOR, TO GET A CHANCE AT THEM.

>> Ted: YOU'RE TALKING HIGH SCHOOLERS.

WHAT ABOUT ADULTS?

>> AND WE ARE SITTING IN THE SPACE, THE LARGEST COMMUNITY COLLEGE IS HERE IN MARICOPA COUNTY.

WE TRY NOT TO COMPETE WITH THEM, BUT TRY TO MAKE SENSE FOR WEST-MEC.

>> Ted: AND LAND PURCHASES AS FAR AS THE NEW FACILITIES?

>> YES, SIR, WE'VE GOT TWO IN PROCESS WE'VE LEASED FROM THE CITY OF PEORIA.

AND COLLABORATION WITH US.

ONE IS 101, AND ONE IS IN THE AREA WHERE THE TWO THAT WE'RE WORKING ON.

>> Ted: MARILYNN WHEN THE BOND PASSED AND THE 415 # MILLION, WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST THOUGHT?

>> I WAS JUST VERY EXCITED.

IT JUST OPENS UP SO MANY DOORS FOR STUDENTS WHO WANT TO BE IN THESE PROGRAMS AND THE CLOSER WE CAN GET TO STUDENTS HIGH SCHOOLS BECAUSE DR.

SPURGEON SPOKE THERE'S NO TRANSPORTATION, THE EASIER IT IS.

WHEN WE SAY IT'S FOR ALL STUDENTS, IT'S FOR ALL STUDENTS, ESPECIALLY IF WE'RE CLOSER TO THEM.

>> Ted: ALL RIGHT.

WHAT NEXT TO WATCH QUICKLY FROM WEST-MEC.

WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR.

>> NEXT THEY THINK YOU LOOK FOR OUR NEW SOUTHEAST CAMPUS THOMAS 101, OPENED IN AUGUST OF '26 WITH NEW PROGRAMS AND WE'D LIKE THAT.

>> Ted: WOW.

DR.

SPURGEON AND MARILYNN BABYAR, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE AND WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

♪♪ ♪♪ .

>> IMENT TONIGHT ON THE NEWS HOUR, A DELAYED JOBS REPORT SHOWS STRONGER HIRING THAN EXPECTED.

THAT'S COMING UP AT 6:00 ON ARIZONA PBS.

>> A NEW STUDY BY ASU RESEARCHERS FOUND THERE ARE QUITE A BIT MORE MAMMAL SPECIES THAN PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT AND THAT OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE MAMMAL WORLD IS STILL EXPANDING AND RAPIDLY.

JOINING US NOW IS DR.

NATHAN UPHAM, AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT ASU LIFE SCIENCES.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>> NICE TO BE HERE, TED.

>> Ted: YOU BET.

THIS STUDY, WHAT EXACTLY, WAS THIS A MAMMAL COUNT?

WHAT WAS GOING ON HERE?

>> YEAH, SO WE STARTED THE INITIATIVE CALLED THE MAMMAL DIVERSITY DATA BASE SPONSORED BY THE AMERICAN SOCIETY OF MAMMALOLOGISTS, SCIENTISTS AROUND THE COUNTRY AND WE HAVE A TEAM OF PEOPLE THAT I LEAD AS PART OF THIS DATA BASE, I SHOULD ACKNOWLEDGE A COUPLE OF THEM.

CONNOR BERGEN AT UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO AND YELLA WHO RUNS A DATA BASE.

THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO HELP US CATALOG THE TOTAL DIVERSITY OF MAMMAL SPECIES THAT ARE LIVING NOW AND RECENTLY EXTINCT, AS WELL AS WHAT THOSE SPECIES ARE VIEWED AS VALID ACCORDING TO THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE.

SO, YEAH, IT IS A COUNT, BUT IT'S ALSO MUCH MORE THAN A COUNT BECAUSE IT'S TELLING THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE MEANING OF THOSE SPECIES NAMES.

>> Ted: WHICH IS A BIG DEAL, ISN'T IT?

>> YEAH, YEAH, I THINK SO.

I MEAN, I'M A LITTLE BIT BIASED, BUT AS A MAMMAL, RIGHT, YOU'RE ALSO A MAMMAL.

>> Ted: YEAH.

>> YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THIS SORT OF, LIKE SPECIAL INTEREST IN THE HERITAGE, THE GENETIC HERITAGE THAT WE ALL SHARE.

I BROUGHT A LITTLE BIT OF A PROP HERE THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY HELP ORIENT PEOPLE A LITTLE BIT.

>> Ted: GO AHEAD.

>> IN THINKING ABOUT MAMMAL DIVERSITY.

SO THIS IS A TREE OF LIFE THAT IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S A LASER CUT INTO WOOD HERE, THAT SHOWS THE 27 TAXOMIC ORDERS, ONE OF THE HIGHER LEVELS OF ORGANIZATION, THAT WE ORGANIZE BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY AND I POINTED OUT HERE WE HAVE PRIMATES HERE, SO HUMANS AS BEING IN PRIMATES, SYMBOLIZED BY A LITTLE RUNNING MAN.

>> Ted: YES.

>> AND THEN RODENTS HERE SYMBOLIZED BY A PORCUPINE AND BATS SHOWN HERE AND KIND OF INTERESTING THING, IF I FLIP THIS OVER, IS THAT THE SPECIES DIVERSITY INSIDE THOSE TAXNOMIC ORDERS HEAVILY SKEWED TO RODENTS AND BATS.

AND WE RECOGNIZE 6,800 OR SO SPECIES OF MAMMALS IN THE DATA BASE NOW AND TWO-THIRDS OF THAT DIVERSITY IS RODENTS OR BATS.

>> Ted: WHY SO MANY?

BECAUSE THEY'RE ABLE TO HIDE AND EVOLVE WITHOUT TOO MUCH PRESSURE?

IS THAT PART OF IT, MAYBE?

>> NO, IT'S A VERY INTERESTING QUESTION.

I MEAN, FIRST I'D SAY WE DON'T TOTALLY KNOW.

>> Ted: YEAH.

>> BUT SOME OF THE LEADING HYPOTHESIS INVOLVE ANYTHING OF SPECIAL ADAPTATION.

SO RODENTS HAVE TWO INCISORS ON TOP AND BOTTOM EVER GROWING THROUGHOUT THEIR LIFETIME, THEY'RE SELF-CHISELING.

THERE'S A HARD ENAAMAL ON THE OUTSIDE AND DENTIN ON THE INSIDE.

THEY CAN SHARPEN AND OPEN NUTS, DIG WITH THOSE TEETH AND WE THINK IT ALLOWS THEM TO EXPLORE A LOT OF ECOLOGICAL ENVIRONMENTS AND KIND OF BE SUCCESSFUL IN THAT REGARD AND OF COURSE, BATS, THE ONLY FLYING MAMMALS.

>> Ted: RIGHT.

>>EN YOU KNOW, DOING VERY INTERESTING THINGS.

THEY HAVE A LONG LIFE SPAN AND WE KNOW THEY'RE RESISTANT TO CERTAIN VIRUSES THAT'S BEEN IN THE NEWS MORE RECENTLY.

>> Ted: AGAIN, WHEN YOU DID THE STUDY, YOU FOUND A HECK OF A LOT MORE IN TERMS OF DIVERSITY THAN THE PREVIOUS STUDY 20-SOME ODD YEARS AGO.

WHY THE INCREASE?

>> THIS IS REALLY THE INTERESTING THING.

I'D SAY IT'S A TWO-PART REASON AND THEY'RE BOTH TOWARDS GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY THAT WE HAVE AROUND US.

FIRST IS A TECHNOLOGY OF BEING ABLE TO LOOK AT DNA SEQUENCING IN A LOT OF MORE DIFFERENT ANIMALS SO AS' GENOMIC REVOLUTION THAT WE'RE UNDERGOING AND ALSO THE INTERNATIONAL COLLABORATION WORKING IN ESPECIALLY TROPICAL COUNTRIES WITH BIOLOGISTS IN THOSE COUNTRIES NOW LEADING A LOT OF THE STUDIES.

BRAZIL AN A PRIME EXAMPLE, BUT ALSO INDONESIA AND PARTS OF AFRICA.

>> Ted: SO IT STANDS TO REASON THAT YOU CAN'T COVER THE ENTIRE WORLD.

THERE ARE PROBABLY SPECIES OUT THERE THAT ARE DOING THEIR BUSINESS AND NO ONE KNOWS THEY EXIST?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YEAH, THAT'S PART OF THE STUDY AS WELL IS THAT WE'RE BASED ON THE CURRENT RATE OF INCREASE OF RECOGNIZING SPECIES AND I SHOULD SAY THAT THERE'S ALSO, YOU KNOW, SOME SPECIES THAT WERE THOUGHT TO BE LIKE SEPARATE AND THAT ARE NOW LUMPED IN WITH OTHERS.

IT GOES BOTH DIRECTIONS.

IT'S NOT JUST A STEADY INCREASE, BUT THAT WE HAVE ABOUT 65 SPECIES PER YEAR BEING ADDED TO THE TOTAL AND THAT WOULD PUT US CLOSER TO 8,000 SPECIES JUST BY 2050.

>> Ted: SO, WITH THIS IN MIND, ALL OF THIS IN MIND.

WHAT DO WE TAKE FROM THE STUDY?

>> YEAH, SO, SPECIES NAMES ARE INTERESTING.

THEY END UP BEING KIND OF THE LANGUAGE OF BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY THAT, ESPECIALLY THE SCIENTISTS USE TO COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER THROUGH TIME AND AMONG DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AND LANGUAGES.

SO WE ALL USE THE LATINIZED NAME GENOUS AND SPECIES.

YOU'RE LITERALLY PART OF A CONVERSATION THAT CARL STARTED IN 1758 IN SWEDEN.

YOU KNOW, KIND OF LIKE THE SYSTEM AND THE INITIAL TAXONOMY.

WE'RE HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION.

>> Ted: AND WHEN YOU DO THE STUDIES YOU LEARN HOW TO ADAPT, HOW THEY GROW AND ONE RODENT CHANGES THIS ONE AND RODENT CHANGES THAT WAY AND THEY'RE STILL THE SAME.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND THAT SORT OF ENDS UP BEING REALLY IMPORTANT FOR SOCIETAL RELATIVE THINGS.

PREDATOR-PREY INTERACTION AND THOSE ARE THE SPECIES INVOLVED IN THAT POST PATHOGEN DYNAMICS.

SO THINKING ABOUT MAMMAL VIRUS INTERACTION, SOMETHING THAT WE DO A LOT IN MY LAB IS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, WHAT LEVEL OF -- YOU KNOW, WHICH SPECIES IS THE HOST IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE BIOLOGY THAT UNDERPINS THAT.

>> Ted: DOCTOR, THIS IS FASCINATING.

AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> YOU BET.

>> Ted: THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

I'M TED SIMONS, YOU HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

♪♪ ♪♪