> >> SINCE THE START OF HIS SECOND TERM, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS PARDONED MORE THAN 1,800 PEOPLE.

OVER THE WEEKEND, JOSH NAST, A NEW YORK ATTORNEY AND LOBBYIST WAS CHARGED FOR TRYING TO EXTORT MONEY FROM HIS CLIENT, WHO REPORTEDLY PAID TO GET CLEMENCY.

AHEAD OF THIS DEVELOPMENT, KENNETH VOGEL SPOKE TO MARTIN ABOUT THE PARDON INDUSTRY.

>> THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> LOT OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON, LEGAL AFFAIRS, MIGHT HAVE STARTED THINKING ABOUT PARDONS BECAUSE ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS PRESIDENT TRUMP DID WAS PARDON ALL THE PEOPLE CONVICTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE JANUARY 6th ATTACKS ON THE CAPITOL.

YOU'VE BEEN LOOKING AT A GROWING PARDON INDUSTRY AROUND THE ADMINISTRATION.

HOW DID YOU START?

WHAT MADE YOU THINK OF IT?

>> WE STARTED LOOKING AT THE END OF THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHEN THERE WAS THE STRUGGLE BY HIM AND HIS SUPPORTERS TO CLING TO POWER JANUARY 6th.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME THERE WAS A NETWORK OF ALLIES AROUND HIM PUSHING TO USE THE LAME DUCK PERIOD THEY KNEW WOULD BE COMING TO AN END TO POSITION CLIENTS, ALLIES AND SUPPORTERS TO GET CLEMENCY FROM TRUMP.

IT'S NOT UNCOMMON FOR A PRESIDENT AT THE END OF A TERM TO USE THE PERIOD OF TIME TO PARDON PEOPLE IN THOSE CATEGORIES BECAUSE IT'S CONTROVERSIAL DECISION, PROPER CHANNELS OR NOT.

SO THEY WAIT TO THE END OF THE TERM TO DO IT BECAUSE THEY THINK I'M ALMOST OUT OF HERE.

EVEN AS TRUMP WAS PROTESTING HE WASN'T GOING TO BE OUT OF THERE, THERE WAS MACHINERY BEHIND THE SCENES THAT HAD CREATED A PIPELINE TO GET THE PARDON APPLICATIONS TO HIS DEATH.

NOT APPLICATIONS THAT HAD GONE THROUGH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PROCESS FOR THE MOST PART, OVERWHELMINGLY BROUGHT TO HIS ATTENTION BY ALLIES AND SUPPORTERS, SOME GETTING PAID TO BRING THEM TO HIS ATTENTION.

>> ONE HIGHLIGHT IS JOSEPH SCHWARTZ, FORMER NURSING HOME EXECUTIVE WHO PAID MORE THAN A MILLION DOLLARS TO LOBBYISTS, LAWYERS, POLITICAL ACTORS SEEKING A PARDON AND GOT ONE AFTER SERVING ONLY A FEW WEEKS IN PRISON.

YOU TRIED TO REACH OUT AND HE DIDN'T ANSWER.

BUT WHAT DOES THIS CASE SAY ABOUT THE PROCESS?

>> HIS CASE WAS PARTICULARLY INTERESTING TO US BOTH BECAUSE IT WAS SORT OF A MYSTERY.

WHEN HE GOT PARDONED, IT WASN'T IMMEDIATELY CLEAR AS IT IS IN OTHER CASES THAT THIS PERSON KNEW THAT PERSON, THIS PERSON PAID THAT PERSON.

IN FACT THE PEOPLE ON RECORD FILED LOBBYIST REPORTS THAT REVEALED THEY WERE PAID BY SCHWARTZ, THEY WERE NOT TYPICAL TRUMP INSIDERS, THEY WERE RIGHT-WING CONSPIRACISTS WHO DIDN'T STRIKE US AS HAVING THAT JUICE IN TRUMP WORLD.

SO WE LOOKED AROUND, THIS GUY WENT THROUGH TRIAL AND ERROR, FIRST PAID TWO RIGHT- WING CONSPIRACISTS, NOT WORKING, GOES TO PRISON.

STARTS PAYING ANOTHER LOBBYIST WHO IS TIED TO PRO-ISRAEL AND EVANGELICAL CIRCLES.

AND PEOPLE INSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE.

INCLUDING A LAWYER WHO REPRESENTED HER FOR HER CLEMENCY IN THE FIRST TRUMP TERM.

EVEN FOR ALL OUR REPORTINGS, WE COULDN'T DRAW A DIRECT LINE FROM THIS PAYMENT TO THAT PERSON TO THE PARDON.

BUT IT OFFERED A SNAPSHOT TO LOOK AT THE INDUSTRY AND THE WAY DIFFERENT PEOPLE ARE SEEKING TO ADVANCE CLEMENCY CASES BY USING CONNECTIONS WITH TRUMP AND CRAFTING ARGUMENTS TO RESONATE WITH TRUMP.

>> IS THERE SOMETHING DIFFERENT ABOUT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM AND SECOND TERM?

>> CERTAINLY IT STARTED EARLIER AND WITH A BANG, NEARLY 1,600 PARDONS OF PEOPLE CONVICTED FOR CHARGES RELATED TO JANUARY 6th.

THEN HE QUICKLY PIVOTED TO PARDON SOME THAT WERE A CELEBRITY LINK, SOME CAUSES HE PARDONED.

TWO POLICE OFFICERS IN WASHINGTON, D. C. , HAD BEEN CONVICTED RELATED TO A CHASE THAT KILLED AN UNARMED BLACK MAN.

MOVED ON TO PARDONING ANTIABORTION PROTESTERS CONVICTED IN RELATION TO THEIR ACTIVITIES OUTSIDE OF AN ABORTION CLINIC.

THESE ARE POLITICAL CASES HE THINKS WILL APPEAL TO SOME OF THE BASE.

BUT OTHERS, TWO CONSERVATIVE, PRO-TRUMP REALITY TV STARS, TODD AND JULIE CHRISLEY.

THAT'S THE CELEBRITY FRONT.

THEN A HOST OF FRAUDSTERS, MOST INTERESTING TO US, THERE'S NOT AN OBVIOUS POLITICAL CONNECTION.

HERE'S AN ADMINISTRATION MAKING A POLITICAL STAND ON CRACKING DOWN ON FRAUD AND SIMULTANEOUSLY PARDONING FRAUDSTERS CONVICTED OF DEFRAUDING CLIENTS AND THE U. S. GOVERNMENT, MEDICARE FRAUD, TAX FRAUD, AND THESE ARE THE MOST AFFLUENT OFFENDERS WHO ARE HAVE THE CONNECTIONS THEMSELVES, HAVE GIVEN MONEY, HAVE THE RESOURCES TO HIRE SOMEONE.

I FOCUSED ON THEM BECAUSE THEY PLAY MOST TO MY SPECIALTY AND BEAT, FOLLOWING THE MONEY, LOOKING AT VARIOUS WAYS THAT MONEY INFLUENCES POLITICS.

AS YOU INTIMATED, THERE'S A NEW INDUSTRY, THE PARDON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX THEY CALL IT, THAT'S BECOME IN SOME WAYS A CRITICAL CHANNEL FOR MONEY INFLUENCING POLITICS.

>> LOBBYING HAS BEEN A PART OF POLITICS LIKE GOSH, THE 1800s, AND THE PRESIDENT'S PARDON POWER IS ABSOLUTE.

DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT TO CREATE SOME SORT OF SYSTEM TO USE THE PARDON POWER TO ADDRESS CIRCUMSTANCES THAT --WHERE PUBLIC OPINION HAD CHANGED.

BUT LOBBYING ALWAYS PART OF IT.

CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, PEOPLE WERE PARDONED THAT MANY PEOPLE NOW LOOK AT THAT, WHAT HAPPENED THERE.

IS THERE SOMETHING DISTINCT EVEN WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THOSE EARLIER ERAS?

>> YES.

YOUR QUESTION POINTS TO TWO EXTREMES OF THE PROCESS.

OBAMA WORKED THROUGH THIS SYSTEM, THE SYSTEM CREATED BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO IDENTIFY AND VET PEOPLE WHO WERE WORTHY OF CLEMENCY FOR REASONS HAVING TO DO WITH SHIFTING ENFORCEMENT OR PERCEPTION OF LAWS OR SHIFTING LAWS RELATED TO SENTENCING.

BIGGEST GROUP OF THE OBAMA PARDONS WAS NONVIOLENT DRUG OFFENSES.

THAT WERE SHIFTING IN THE WAY WE LOOKED AT THE LAWS AND ENFORCED THEM, AND LAWS THEMSELVES SHIFTED.

THIS SYSTEM WAS SET UP TO IDENTIFY BIG GROUPS OF PEOPLE AT THE DIRECTION OF THE PRESIDENT AND DETERMINE IN THE GROUPS WHO WERE MOST WORTHY AND LEAST LIKELY TO RESID VAT.

THAT'S THE PROCESS.

CLINTON MOSTLY FOLLOWED THE PROCESS BUT ALSO PARDONED SOME POLITICAL SUPPORTERS OR RELATIVES.

HE PARDONED PEOPLE WHO HAD PAID HIS RELATIVES, NOT TOO DISSIMILAR FROM TRUMP.

THE DIFFERENCE IS CLINTON MOSTLY ADHERED TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FUNNEL SYSTEM, MOST OF HIS GRANTS ISSUED THROUGH THERE.

ALMOST 91 OF TRUMP'S ARE.

>> IT'S A FEATURE, NOT A BUG?

>> THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO PUT IT.

>> THE WHITE HOUSE HAS PUSHED BACK STRONGLY THAT MONEY OR LOBBYISTS ARE PART OF THESE DECISIONS.

LEAVITT SAID ANYONE SPENDING MONEY TO LOBBY FOR PARDONS IS FOOLISHING WASTING THEIR MONEY AND THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE.

SAYING THEY HAVE A ROBUST PARDON REVIEW PROCESS AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THE FINAL DECIDER.

WE KNOW THE PRESIDENT IS THE FINAL DECIDER, AS WE SAID IT'S ABSOLUTE.

HOW DO YOU SQUARE THE REST OF THAT WITH THE PATTERNS YOU'VE UNCOVERED?

>> ANOTHER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TRADITIONAL WAY THAT CLEMENCY GRANTS ARE PROCESSED AND ANNOUNCED VERSUS HOW TRUMP IS DOING IT -- AND THE WAY NOW IS DIFFERENT FROM HIS FIRST TERM.

IN HIS FIRST TERM HE DID ANNOUNCE, EVEN IN THE SPREE OF PARDONS AND COMMUTATIONS END OF THE TERM, THE WHITE HOUSE WOULD PUT OUT STATEMENTS JUSTIFYING ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ONE.

THIS PERSON WAS SUPPORTED BY THESE PEOPLE, HERE'S WHAT THEY'VE DONE IN THE COMMUNITY.

MAKING A CASE.

NOW THEY DON'T.

THE WHITE HOUSE SAYING THIS IS THE RESULT OF A RIGOROUS PROCESS, THE PEOPLE ARE ALL DESERVING, YOU KNOW, LOBBYING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, THEY'RE ASKING US TO TAKE THEIR WORD FOR IT.

>> SOME OF THE CASES YOU'VE REPORTED ON, THERE WERE VICTIMS WHO WERE EXPECTING RESTITUTION, THE COURTS FOUND.

>> IN CASE OF SCHWARTZ, HE DID PAY HIS RESTITUTION, RARE CASE.

BUT MANY OTHERS DID NOT PAY RESTITUTION, THEY WERE SEEKING THE PARDON BECAUSE THEY WERE AWARE OF THE DEADLINES FOR ASPECTS OF THEIR SENTENCE, REPORTING TO PRISON AND ALSO THE RESTITUTION THEY WERE WANTING TO AVOID.

THAT'S WIPED AWAY, THAT'S ONE OF THE ELEMENTS OF THE SENTENCE THAT'S WIPED AWAY.

AN EXAMPLE EARLY IN THE TERM, A GUY BY THE NAME OF PAUL WALZAK.

HE GOT A PARDON.

FAMILY HAD BEEN MODERATE REPUBLICAN DONORS IN SOUTH FLORIDA IN THE TRUMPY SCENE.

BUT WE LEARNED AND REPORTED THAT HIS MOTHER HAD BEEN IN BUSINESS WITH HIM AND MADE A MILLION DOLLAR DONATION TO MAGA, INC.

WHICH ENTIRED HER TO A DINNER WITH DONORS AND PRESIDENT TRUMP WHERE SHE PLEADED HIS CASE.

HE HAD PLEADED GUILTY AND HE WAS WAITING TO REPORT AND PRESIDENT TRUMP ISSUED THE PARDON BEFORE HE HAD TO REPORT.

EXCUSED FROM OVER $4 MILLION IN RESTITUTION.

IF THE $1 MILLION GOT HER THE AUDIENCE THAT LED TO HAVING SUCCESSFUL PLEADING WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD INVESTMENT.

>> IN THIS CASE WOULD YOU SAY THERE'S A QUID PRO QUO?

IN ANY OF THE CASES IS IT CLEAR OR MAINLY BY INFERENCE?

>> GOOD QUESTION, GLAD YOU BROUGHT IT UP.

I DON'T MEAN TO SUGGEST THERE WAS A SMOKING GUN WITH A CAUSAL CONNECTION BETWEEN THE DONATION, LOBBYING AND PARDON.

IT'S ALMOST NEVER -- I HAVEN'T FOUND A CASE I COULD DEFINITIVELY PROVE THERE.

THERE'S ALWAYS PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.

WE GO OUT OF OUR WAY TO CAPTURE THE EXPLANATION FROM THE WHITE HOUSE THAT PUSHES BACK ON THAT.

PART OF THE REASON WE CAN'T DEFINITIVELY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, IT'S STILL A BLACK BOX, OPAQUE THING.

PRESIDENT IS THE ULTIMATE DECIDER AS KAROLINE LEAVITT PUT IN.

IT'S UNFETTERED POWER AND ONE OF THE MOST SWEEPING ONES OF THE PRESIDENT THAT REALLY NO ONE CAN CHECK HIM ON IT.

>> IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE REMEMBER AT THE END OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THE PRESIDENT PARDONED MEMBERS OF HIS IMMEDIATE FAMILY, HIS SON WHO HAD BEEN CONVICTED ON GUN CHARGES.

HIS SISTER FOR SOME REASON.

HE PARDONED PEOPLE WHO --IT WAS SAID ON HIS BEHALF --THEY WOULD BE TARGETED.

WHAT IS THE DISCOURSE ON PARDONS GIVEN WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED IN JUST THE FIRST YEAR OF THE SECOND TRUMP TERM.

YOU SAID CONGRESS HAS THOUGHT ABOUT TRYING TO INTERVENE BUT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE AN AVENUE TO DO SO.

IT'S A CONSTITUTION RIGHT THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS, SPECIFIC TO THAT OFFICE.

OF WHAT ARE PEOPLE SAYING ABOUT THIS?

>> THERE'S BIPARTISAN LEGISLATION, BUT THE REPUBLICAN WHO SPONSORED IT IN THE HOUSE IS REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON OF NEBRASKA, WHO HAS EMERGED AS A BIT OF A THORN IN TRUMP'S SIDE AND WILLING TO TAKE HIM ON ON AN ARRAY OF ISSUES.

NONETHELESS, THIS IS REGARDED BY SERIOUS PEOPLE WHO STUDY THIS ISSUE ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM AS PROBLEMATIC AND MAYBE AN EMERGING TREND.

THAT'S THE OBJECTIONS FROM THE PARDON EXPERTS.

I'LL SEPARATE THE TWO.

HUNTER BIDEN WAS A VIOLATION OF PROMISE NOT TO DO IT AND HE TURNED AROUND --IT ANYWAY.

HUNTER BIDEN HAD COMMITTED CRIMES, PLEADED GUILTY TO TAX AND GUN CRIMES.

>> AS HAVE SOME OF THE PEOPLE PRESIDENT TRUMP PARDONED.

>> 100%.

I WAS GOING TO SAY NOT DIRECTLY RELATED BUT HE DID PARDON HIS DAUGHTER'S FATHER-IN-LAW, CHARLES KUSHNER FOR A CRIME SOME TIME IN THE PAST.

BUT THERE WERE SEPARATE CATEGORIES.

I THINK A MORE SWEEPING SET OF OBJECTIONS BY EXPERTS TO THE HUNTER BIDEN PROBLEM THAN THE PREEMPTIVE PARDONS OF OTHER PEOPLE, POLITICAL ALLIES, ANTHONY FAUCI, IT WAS FAIR TO ASSUME TRUMP MIGHT COME AFTER THESE PEOPLE AND A PARDON WOULD PREVENT THEIR PROSECUTION, AND SOME PEOPLE OBJECTED, SOME EXPERTS SAID IT'S IMPROPER USE OF THE PARDON, SHOULD BE FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CONVICTED, SHOWN REMORSE, NOT PROACTIVELY.

>> ANY CASE STAND OUT TO YOU?

>> WOMAN WHO GOT TWO CLEMENCY GRANTS FOR TWO CRIMES IS ONE.

OTHERS, PEOPLE HAVE GONE BACK.

THERE'S A GUY, ELIHU WEINSTEIN WHO PERPETRATED A GREAT FRAUD, AFFECTED A LOT OF PEOPLE, WENT TO JAIL, GOT A COMMUTATION FROM TRUMP.

AND SHORTLY THEREAFTER PROSECUTORS ALLEGE HE WAS BACK AT ANOTHER FRAUD USING A DIFFERENT NAME, AND HE'S BACK IN JAIL.

AND SO, THE REOFFENDERS ARE THE ONES THAT I THINK REALLY PUT THIS IN THE STARKEST RELIEF AND SHOW WHY THE SYSTEM AND THE ATTEMPTS --AGAIN, UNCHECKED POWER BY THE PRESIDENT, BUT THERE WAS A SYSTEM THAT WAS SET UP TO TRY TO MAKE IT EASIER AND MORE MERITORIOUS, AND IT'S BEING IGNORED AND WHEN YOU SEE THE REOFFENDERS, IT BRINGS IT HOME.

>> NEEDLESS TO SAY, AS A DILIGENT REPORTER, YOU'VE REACHED OUT TO PEOPLE IN THESE CASES, PRINCIPALS, LAWYERS, SOME DECLINED TO COMMENT, OTHERS SAID THEY DIDN'T BENEFIT FROM THE ADMINISTRATION ACTIONS, SOME HAD NO RESPONSE.

WE HEARD FROM THE ADMINISTRATION, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE CASES?

>> IN A LOT OF CASES, THEIR ALLIES, SUPPORTERS OR LAWYERS SAYING THIS WAS JUSTIFIED BECAUSE THIS WAS AN OVERSENTENCING.

OR THERE WAS PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT, ALL THE WAYS THAT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM CAN BE UNFAIR.

I DON'T DISMISS ANY OF THOSE, THAT'S PROBABLY RIGHT IN A LOT OF CASES, BUT IT'S ALSO PROBABLY RIGHT IN A HUGE SWATH OF CASES OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE MONEY, DON'T HAVE CONNECTION, ARE WAITING IN LINE, FILING PARDON PETITION WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THROUGH THE NORMAL PROCESS AND NEVER HEAR BACK, OR GET REJECTED OUT OF HAND.

IT'S THE DISPARITY IN ABILITY TO ACCESS THIS PRESIDENTIAL PERK FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD THAT I THINK IS NOTABLE AND NOT ALWAYS TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN YOU HEAR EXPLANATIONS ABOUT WHY AN INDIVIDUAL DID WARRANT CLEMENCY.

>> KENNETH VOGEL, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.