hello and welcome to this special edition of Almanac North I'm Aaron Brown host of tonight's core conversation on mining I'm an author columnist and college instructor in Hibbing I live in the woods north of the western Wasabi Iron Range and Drive by two mines every day on my way to work core conversations is a quarterly look at some of the big issues in our region an effort to dig a little deeper and educate viewers on these issues tonight our focus is on mining and specifically what the future might look like for both Ferris and non-ferrous mining in northern Minnesota whether you support mining or against mining or sit somewhere in the middle tonight's broadcast will offer you something to think about we will begin with iron mining the iron industry has seen constant Evolution over the past Century from nearly pure hematite ore to Modern taconite pellets mining companies are always on the lookout for what is next to keep them competitive on the World Market producer Megan McGarvey and videographer Thomas Soderberg spent time at two iron mines recently they learned about new value-added product Innovations and what this could mean for the future of mining in Minnesota thank you foreign we are the starting point to the steel making process without our Iron Range operations you wouldn't have the steel that you need for your car your washer and dryer your refrigerator things that we use in everyday life so iron is absolutely essential to how we live our lives and the iron range is the first stop on that whole process Minnesota's taconite industry is the child of necessity and invention before taconite came Rich natural iron ore discovered in three distinct ranges the Vermilion the Wasabi and the cayuna by the end of World War II Minnesota's natural high grade oars were nearly gone the mining companies and their employees faced a bleak future one of the biggest issues and it's always been a concern is just the or and is it going to run out this has been a concern for many years and that's why the industry has really Diversified Edward Wilson Davis head of the University of Minnesota's Minds experiment station was convinced the answer lay in taconite first came the pilot plants pre-tac pile attack and extaca then in 1951 Reserve developed a mine near Babbitt connected by rail to a concentrator and pelletizing plant at Silver Bay in 1952 Erie announced plans to build a plant near Aurora and rail line to taconite Harbor I think we've shown throughout those years that we can pivot and we can make it work today what we're looking for is the next attack I think we're probably embarking on a similar transition iron mining has been around since 1884 so 140 years and it's made it through a lot of difficult times and the Dr project at ketak is another example of this industry moving forward with technology and really staying ahead of the game what is Dr what is Dr great palette well VR grade is essentially a pellet that has less impurities in our case that impurity means so essentially you have to liberate the silica out and by liberating it out you increase the iron content and now that can be used in direct reduce the iron a few things that are pretty cool about our project is we're using state-of-the-art technology uh starts out with screen uh we've got fine wet screening equipment which is the highest capacity available that's based off of improvements from existing technology and one of the coolest is the high intensity grinding uh and this is uh something that uses less power to liberate the silicon and it's actually the first of its kind used in Iron ore in North America so pretty excited to see that new technology the iron mining industry is so much more than just the mines themselves although those are very key part to the industry but it really impacts other local businesses it impacts our schools across Minnesota the iron mining industry contributes money to every student in public education across the entire state so its impact is vast and and very massive and it's important that these Investments keep coming to the area and thanks to our hard-working folks here they're going to keep coming to the area and now the next Dimension is to have profitable steel solution for people and our most important customer the planet local mining companies take great pride in ensuring that we protect the environments our companies are working on decarbonization sustainability and these are all voluntary actions the companies are taking and have been taking for years and protecting the environment is key to the work that we do and that's important before during and after mining happens one thing we saw was an electric shovel there are a number of them at mintak and that's a way for the company to work toward that clean energy environment I think the future is really bright this industry has been around for nearly 140 years but it keeps on moving and advancing and growing and I think we're seeing that as we went from red ore to taconite you know now some operations are moving into Dr grade pellets so I think the future is bright and there's a lot of life left for iron mining here on the Iron Range as noted in that story iron mining has had to reinvent itself many times over the years and to continue Minnesota's mining Legacy new products and Greener mining techniques will be essential the University of Minnesota duluth's natural resources Research Institute is working on some of those potential mining Innovations of the near future here to tell us more is Rolf Weber executive director of the natural resources Research Institute welcome Rolf thanks for being here well thanks for inviting me Aaron it's fun to see that history of iron mining kind of whiz by our eyes here but we're kind of at a Crossroads some new technology coming what is the nrri working on in the near future well the playoff of the uh some of the comments that are made decarbonization and energy utilization and reduced impact is the focus of the federal government as well as our partners in the industry we're excited because we're looking at all these opportunities and our job is to look at what what could be possible in the five to ten year time frame and what are the things that are missing in our toolbox to allow that exciting future that Kristen alluded to so we're excited because when we look at the way we think about our natural resources in Minnesota they really are driving three really critical what we feel are initiatives one is ecosystem resilience understanding the world we live in understand our impacts and understand how to manage those impacts and prevent some if we can second is Forest indices of the future how do we understand those forests what they're going to be tomorrow and what those products of tomorrow might be including engineered carbon products that will have a big impact and maybe our future steel industry and of course iron and minerals of the future how do we do this with the resources we have today the resources of tomorrow and what are those technologies that are going to get us to those new products and that portfolio of value-added products that are going to bring more value to the state we were talking about direct reduced iron that's one of the products that you're working on what are some of those other products that you're developing well when we look at the uh I'm going to back up just a little bit because when we look at the iron we have we steer around a lot of iron in the state today we call it waste we call it waste positive we call it tailings we call it oxidized ore we're really trying to understand that resource so that we can create that new technology to bring those iron units to to a useful so these would be the mine dumps that we drive by on the highway yeah and some of the material we drive past when we when we are in our mining process so there's a lot of iron there it's just not what we can use an attackingite process so we're looking at what are those Technologies we can bring to bear to bring that to fruition first as part of looking at those new technologies and new products we've heard about drg that was described in the video dri which is a metallized form that can go into electric Arc furnaces electric Arc furnaces now make up over two-thirds of the steel making production here in the state in the country and we need to be conversant with that with our [ -_-_ ] in Minnesota as we go farther than dri you get into hot bricketted iron that are basically pure iron units and go directly into that or into a blast furnace for that matter but as you do that the value of that product goes up you have a broader portfolio and we're excited about working with our our partners to reduce their energy utilization reduce their water utilization and create that next portfolio of products in a world where the iron is so much higher grade than say a traditional taconite pellet uh what's it going to take for the industry to scale up to all of that new technology it's that's where we come in working on that five and ten year time frame not next week they've got that handled but the what we're trying to really deliver is what are those possibilities to demonstrate on a on a um an industrial level so we can reduce the risk so that they can invest and then we can and we're doing that not only with the industry but we're we're collaborating quite closely with the Department of energy as well as the USGS what are the resources what are the Technologies we need to take that leap and how do we do that here in the state of Minnesota do you think direct reduced iron production plant is possible in northern Minnesota absolutely uh in fact with the Department of energy project that we're running right now we're going to be building a world unique piece of equipment called a dri simulator why is that important well we can take any ore from anywhere in the world primary Minnesota but we can emulate any dri process that exists today or that could exist tomorrow and what we're trying to do is look at what how can we take these iron units create a viable product out of those that can fit into different Iron processes of the future that we don't know are there yet so building these tools to give us the flexibility and the foresight to Aid industry and give them a tool that they can use to build their plants design their plants and help them succeed and you're also researching ways to make mine waste more manageable I know that's one of the big stories in mining is how are we handling the the Water waste what are you working on there well NRI has been working on dealing with waterways in particular the sulfate issue in the state for many years now and we have four separate platforms right now that we are in Pilot stage literally putting them on trailers and and demonstrating these at water treatment facilities are on the state we have targeted three different areas of water contamination one is the zero to 200 which is a Municipal Water Treatment Plant there's their choice is to use reverse osmosis which they can't afford so we have a process that we can essentially plug in and we've been able to demonstrate in three separate places in the state being able to reduce it from the 70 to 120 participate in typical below 10 over a period of months so this is exciting and if we can go out there and demonstrate that with biological systems that demonstrate with chemical systems and ion exchange systems that's what we're all about real quick sure if as a scientist what's the most exciting thing about the iron mining industry right now the opportunity yeah the opportunity and learning to take those things we're walking away from today and turn them into opportunity very good Ralph weenberg thank you thank you for being here absolutely iron isn't the only mineral beneath our feet in northern Minnesota copper nickel and other sulfide minerals are abundant in our region as well producer Megan McGarvey and videographer Thomas Soderberg wanted to learn more about the potential of these minerals and what environmental concerns lay ahead for future excavation we're very comfortable with taconite mining or iron ore mining we've had it since 1880 we've seen the projects we understand it as a general area we you know we get mining we watch The Ore ships we know taconite came from the Iron Range we know it grows up to be steel but when it comes to copper nickel this is a whole new industry for us and to be frank people are concerned about it people have seen how copper nickel mining has been done other places they have very legit concerns and questions about how we're going to mine it what is our Legacy going to be some questions as to where do those materials go and I think we all understand where they those materials what they grow up to be as far as renewable stuff like that but people want to know how is this going to be done the big difference between the two types of mining is that if you have material remaining that has sulfide in it or contains sulfide that sulfide can react with air and water to form sulfuric acid so that is the big concern when people talk about sulfide or mining that you don't have with oxide ores if you look at the Anaconda mine the Berkeley Pit and the big thing with that one is it was done with no planning right I believe it started in the late 1800s and they just dug and they didn't care and then they let it flood and then they and that's the thing is that mining we need to build trust and it's it's hard because you're you're having to build trust for something you didn't break in the first place I think one of the things I appreciate about Minnesota when you look at where the copper nickel deposits are we have the Boundary Waters Watershed Lake Superior Watershed and Upper Mississippi river Watershed which are three watersheds that people care a lot about and I used to think oh why in the world would the universe put these metal resources next to these water resources and I'm glad they did I'm glad that's the way it is because it's forcing us to be honest about what metals we use where did they come from how were they mined who are they mined by and what is good about these resources being here is it's forcing us to the table mining companies have not always been great so I don't blame people when they go to some of these projects and they say I don't want this next to the Boundary Waters and I say I don't either this is not cool this is not how we should have been mining and we would never be okay with Berkeley pit today and it's taking those lessons from both the social and the environmental and saying well how do we do how do we keep this from happening and ultimately comes down to regulations and it comes down to holding companies accountable you know we do have other areas of the world that mine and how well those materials can get into the U.S or you know how are they competing with us we've seen that in the steel industry as far as you know not non-american steel coming into our Shores and so as a copper nickel we need to be aware of some of those competitors too and that's one area that I think you know the Biden Administration recently did the inflation reduction act which is very supportive of domestic Mining and processing and I think we need stuff like that to recognize that if it is a stamped American it was mined differently than if it was mine somewhere else because at the end of the day we do have stricter environmental standards many folks have heard of polymet many folks have heard of twin Metals at this point you know but we also have Tech Resources with a deposit that's decent and we also have talent you know in Talon Metals you know a lot of people have talked about that that's in Aitkin County which is an area that hasn't had mining before but we also just have a lot of exploration going on in the state and as we go forward you know one of the predictions is that we will need to mine as much copper in the next 25 years as we've mine in the past five thousand years and that's just a lot of copper and it needs to come from somewhere the ethical right thing to do is to evaluate that resource in Minnesota to give it a fair evaluation and say what will it take to bring those medals into the systems what you know what are the environmental things we need to consider what are the social things we need to consider we need to look at that because we know the demand for these Metals is only going to go up as we electrified our world using different resources will technology allow us to mine these new ores safely here with another viewpoint on copper nickel mining is JT Haynes Northeastern Minnesota director for the Minnesota Center for environmental advocacy welcome JT thanks for being here and congratulations on the success of your documentary hockey land when you're one of the producers hockey is one part of northern Minnesota Life mining is another what concerns do you have given that we will need a new electrical equipment for vehicles and and other things in the Green Technology Revolution what are your concerns about the mining proposals here yeah thank you thanks for having me on um so first of all you know it's great to hear these companies talk about interest in climate action you know we support that we all want climate action um you know it's it's also I want to be clear that we all want Economic Development Northeastern Minnesota that is you know respects the people on the Iron Range and also the people Downstream of the Iron Range I hope this is something we can all work on together with regard to some of the recent you know conversations around producing more copper and nickel and other metals for you know um the elect electrification process you know there is a bit of a fact issue that we have to deal with here which is of course that mining itself and especially sulfide mining is hugely impactful on the very resources that are currently under duress as a result of climate pressures and of course I'm talking about water pollution talking about loss of biodiversity and you know I'm also talking about climate pollution and greenhouse gas emissions you know as we know the industry as a whole you know is responsible for up to nine percent of global greenhouse gas emissions so you know these are all part of the context we can't just be focusing on producing more things if we only focus on producing more things or if we only take an emissions Focus where you know we are risking making the problem worse and we need to be careful to address solutions that don't in themselves make the problem worse I think a lot of people who live in northern Minnesota look at mining as a jobs issue what can you say about Economic Development outside of mining or that that would include some of these new technologies that didn't access some of these ores that they're talking about well you know we're very aware that there's an existing mining industry on the Range and there's you know 4 000 direct jobs as part of that a lot of indirect jobs and you know I we want to be clear that this is a different situation than the new proposals for sulfide mining um they're different in the sense that there are ongoing pollution issues with the attack Knight industry and we heard Ralph talk a little bit about like addressing some of those issues the sulfate issues ETC decarbonizing the steel industry those are really important things we should be continuing to promote those ideas those are existing jobs the sulfide mining industry those are new new proposals those jobs do not exist yet and it is a more destructive and more polluting industry so I think there's an opportunity here to focus on sustaining an existing industry and improving that industry as a way to come together in the region versus you know this these very divisive International sulfide mining proposals which suffer from tremendous flaws that have you know after all these years have yet to be resolved so you know we want to continue to focus on those flaws and those issues and also at the same time support better alternatives so thinking about uh your your ideas here a lot of what you're talking about is conservation you know how does conservation roll into policy for northern Minnesota that people who are you know used to the iron mining industry and the way things used to be how does conservation roll into the future well we talk about needing copper for example for wind turbines or we talk about the fact that there are metals and iPhones and I think you know some conservation Concepts we should be thinking about are you know how can we waste less how can we conserve more it's it's actually 65 percent less energy intensive to recycle copper than it is to produce a new copper it's 90 percent less greenhouse gas emissions intensive to recycle nickel than it is to produce a new nickel that's one thing another another opportunity to look at is how can we conserve more of the resources that are already in existence in other words that have already been mined and you know we're not doing a great job of recycling it in the United States even small increases in recycling as compared to like for example the EU would far out Pace the production for example of a polymet mine so what about looking at ways to have more producer responsibility across the lifespan of a product right now it's pretty cheap to pollute and it's pretty cheap to waste what if we looked at planned obsolescence and iPhones what if we looked at the right to repair what if we looked at extended warranties let's make products last longer let's make products last 25 years you know one very direct and immediate way to reduce emissions and reduce waste is to increase things like public transportation that has an immediate reduction in the need for new Metals um in a way that you know it would be super productive for this conversation about how can we increase the supply you know fundamentally this is a show about natural resources we talk about iron we talk about copper nickel and other minerals but what about water what do you think the economic future of water is from from your point of view well water is under serious stress you know the scientists tell us this is not just an emissions crisis it's certainly not just an electric vehicle crisis this is a triple planetary crisis that includes pollution and clean water it includes loss of biodiversity and then it also includes climate so when we think about water here's an example not a lot of people know this but the the water appropriation for the polymet proposal which has been as we know suspended due to Major flaws with the proposal the appropriation for that um that water permit is eight dollars per million gallons for six billion gallons a year for some of the purest cleanest water on the planet for an industry that has one of the worst records of polluting water so the question I think the question to your question is is it smart to be putting all that water at risk and not only just at risk polymet's own proposals says they will pollute that water and put it in the tailings Basin indefinitely and we're supposed to rely on future techniques to clean that up and reclaim it that have not even been determined yet there's not even a timeline for it so is it in this current triple planetary crisis is it responsible to put all that water at risk and also pollute it and and you know we're very concerned about that and I would suggest the answer is no so you're saying that to handle this crisis that you describe uh we need to not only not mine but but that it's better that we don't mind what we need to do is we need to start with less wasteful less harmful options like we need to recycle more we need to conserve more do we really need more products more than we need clean water is it more carbon intensive to produce new metals or to conserve metals that we already have and by the way we can decarbonize the steel industry on the Iron Range that's an option that's an option to support jobs that exist right now so I think there are options for us that in that we can work together on that don't just involve cracking open a new hole and creating all the consequences that that that entails your organization talks a lot about jobs available in the green economy what kind of jobs could Northern minnesotans look forward to in that in that world that your organization describes well we're not an economic development agency of course you know our our role is to look at the standards and enforce the standards in the law but in terms but we do want to be supportive of Economic Development opportunities and you know something we've been thinking a lot about lately is you know what you've been discussing in this program like how do we support the existing industry which is taking efforts to increase renewable usage Renewable Fuel usage decrease the use of energy through things like Dr pellets and electric Arc furnaces can we decarbonize the existing industry to preserve those jobs and make it more globally competitive I think that's the type of thing that maybe we could all get on board with together as an environmentalist what excites you about what's happening in the mining industry is there anything what's the good news coming out of it do you have any yes of course I do yeah there's a lot of good people in the mining industry and a lot of good people on the Range I hold them very dear and I I you know we may have disagreements on specific industrial proposals but but I think what we have in common is that people seem to appreciate the vision that you know this would be better if we were all working together right if we could if we could find some commonality between the Iron Range and Duluth you know you know support some some projects that respect people on the Range and people Downstream of the range and by the way we haven't mentioned this yet but the Fond du Lac band the reservation which sits Downstream of some of these proposals you know the scientists have said these proposals cannot meet the band's water quality standards we got to figure out something else that takes into account the people who are Downstream all right well JT Haynes thank you thank you for being here thank you so much all right in the beginning Northern Minnesota iron mines operated with few environmental regulations the first lawsuit over environmental damage was actually filed back in 1913. now this involved Wisconsin steel which operated the Hawkins mine in nashwock they actually made International Harvester tractors with that ore that mines ore washing plant was on a nearby lake where they dumped tailings from the wash Plant eventually those tailings escaped the lake flowing down a creek into Swan Lake which on one bright clear morning turned blood red creating a big problem for the cabin owners around the lake the lawsuit eventually failed because black and white photos couldn't prove that the lake had actually turned red but the lawsuit did Force the company to develop an early type of tailings basin this same technology became an industry standard and is the reason taconite tailings aren't choking out our lakes and streams today our next guest is working on technologies that could make those same tailings ponds even safer and he also knows a lot about green steel and how hydrogen could fuel that green mining Revolution Jeff Hansen is an environmental engineer by trade and one of the founders of Clearwater biologic welcome Jeff thanks for being here well Aaron thank you it's a pleasure being here yes thanks for bringing me on I think I'd like to start talking about something I think is very exciting which is the notion of hydrogen a very simple element being used in the in the production of Steel can you tell me about that and how it works well um maybe I can't tell you all about how it works but I'm very excited about it as well because hydrogen is a very powerful energy source one of the best that we have on that and it can be used to convert our iron oxide which is your hematite magnetite taconite Etc and remove the oxygen from it to make direct reduced iron you have to have something powerful that wants that oxygen therefore it can be a fundamental source of energy and reductive capacity to make reduced iron meaning really metallic iron with you know 97 or so percent iron which would make a big difference for what we have on the Range here seven to nine percent of the world's carbon emissions come from the steel making industry worldwide so that's a huge chunk of the big picture would hydrogen produce steel help reduce that number well absolutely um here on the Iron Range we take our iron oxide we ship it someplace else where it's processed it's in big blast furnaces our attack Knight pellets cannot be used in electric Arc furnaces but if they're reduced to direct reduced iron they can be and doing that with hydrogen versus coal or natural gas you would have a greatly reduced carbon footprint reduction of those seven and nine percent of carbon that comes from the steel industry and if we could be contributors in that here on the Range where we have the ore I think that would be a phenomenal contribution and a very big step in reducing greenhouse gases and help protect the environment I know we were talking earlier this week about the notion of iron air batteries and this is kind of another fascinating aspect of of what we could potentially do in northern Minnesota very briefly could you describe what those are well um first off to use renewable energy wind and solar you have to have a storage capacity well an air iron an iron air battery is one where you use iron to rust it or unrusted oxidize or reduce it to be storing energy well we happen to produce iron here but it has to be for an iron air battery it has to be an iron that can rest and unrest both ways and it has to conduct electricity after all it's a battery right so our taconite pellets don't do that dri pellets do do that so form energy has been able to develop a system where they could have storage capacity sufficient for the grid to level out those ups and downs of renewable energies from wind and solar and that could be great we could produce those materials here one of the biggest problems that we hear about in the mining debate both for iron Mining and for copper nickel mining is the problem of sulfates your company in particular has worked on mitigation efforts and it's kind of fascinating because it's it's biological the the type of uh mitigation you've you've used describe how that works well first off we know that uh sulfate in the Water by any impacted water comes from the iron sulfide the pyrite the Fool's Gold that is in very small quantities but it's in taconite and other ores and primarily when you stop mining like the Erie mining company and those mine pits fill up with water then you have the water and the oxygen in the air and it makes sulfate in the water when that sulfate goes Downstream nature takes over and it biologically converts sulfate to hydrogen sulfide that rotten egg smell that none of us like very much that is toxic a lot of things and supposedly really damages wild rice well our Avenue on that is to use Nature's Way and biomimic it by floating bioreactors with huge surface area in a Mine Pit Lake where we biologically reduce sulfate to hydrogen sulfide and then treat it um the next step of that is how to treat the hydrogen sulfide and that's where I get very excited right now because of the direction that we're going on the Iron Range as a whole because that gives us the opportunity to modify that system and deal with the sulfate issue in an extremely economical way now so direct reduced iron is actually the agent is it not to to address how to handle that waste product uh yes as a matter of fact when a few years back the mpca tried to come up with a new wild rice standard where they said well okay you're going to produce sulfate okay but that goes Downstream and nature makes hydrogen sulfide okay but if you got enough iron there it will react with the iron and mitigate the problem but is it the right kind of iron how much do you have iron oxide is in taconite does not react with hydrogen sulfide hardly at all but you take away the oxygen that iron wants to react with something it reacts with hydrogen sulfide and therefore you can take that sulfur totally out of the system at that point so when we talk about sustainability you know closed Loops of of natural production you could be actually addressing some of the waste products from mining with some of the products that are mined here absolutely and that's one thing that I get really excited about right now first off excited because I see not only the potential but that the industry here is going to Greener steel and iron reducing greenhouse gases but then the product that they need to produce to do that can help us solve the sulfate problem at the same time I think that's a big win-win Jeff Hansen uh thank you for joining us thank you Aaron all right although iron mining may be looking to reinvent itself once again with Dr grade pellets copper nickel mining operations are in their infancy in Minnesota some community members and environmentalists are worried about the impact those sulfide Rich oars may have on the environment producer Megan McGarvey and videographer Isaac quick took a trip up the North Shore to hear a Local's perspective foreign people who experience The Boundary Waters often experience like a life-changing event you know there are so few places where you can go in the world and go 15 minutes or more without hearing a human-made sound I mean imagine that standing and not hearing a single human-made sound for an extended period of time it's a dark sky Sanctuary you can see the Milky Way every night I mean that's just such a unique experience that we don't get to to experience hardly ever anywhere else in our lives but it's really life-changing for people so the ability to access that and to experience that and and have you know low barriers of Entry to do that that's a really special thing and that doesn't exist everywhere The Boundary Waters kanuria Wilderness has even special protections above and beyond other Wilderness areas in our country it's the most visited Wilderness Area in the United States which is cool it's really accessible it's easy for people to get in and out versus some Wilderness areas say in like Montana where you have to be like a mountaineer to get in you don't have to have a real specialized skill set for The Boundary Waters but the extra protections are things like you can't have anything mechanized in there that means even Wheels no Portage wheels in the Boundary Waters no sailboats that kind of thing there's also the airspace is protected so that's why you never see planes or drones flying around in the Boundary Waters only the forest service can bring in their Beaver airplanes to do maintenance or Emergency Services saw Bill is 100 dependent on The Boundary Waters that's all we do at our business here I mean we don't we don't do anything else we don't have cabins you know no Lodge nothing like that so we are 100 a Boundary Waters business and it's only through the great reputation and the good stewardship of this Wilderness that our business continues to flourish I feel very connected to the place up here and it's um really I feel very lucky and very honored to be able to continue on our family's Legacy of being small business owners up here it's a lot of work but it doesn't always feel like work and I think every day how fortunate I am to be able to make a living here and create a living for employees and to create a childhood for my kids and to be a part of this community and a part of this landscape in a responsible way and that's that's really important to me and it's why I came back foreign so there's lots of different kinds of mining right and I think there's a long and and Rich history of iron ore mining in Minnesota we're all pretty familiar with that everybody's grown up you know we've had lots of employees friends and family that live on the Iron Range and are supported by that community and that's great the immediate concern right now what everybody's talking about is sulfide mining I'm no scientist but there are certainly folks out there who are experts and so being aware of what sulfide mining is and the types of pollution that are possible from sulfide mining and how that can affect our ecosystem here and The Boundary Waters is really important there are some really dire consequences of that mining whether or not it even goes wrong right there doesn't have to be a big disaster just the natural byproducts of that kind of mining can be incredibly harmful you know on the companies that are proposing some of these mines are they are not Minnesotan they don't care about minnesotans they're not trying to hire union workers you know I mean they're truly in companies they're going to be bringing in folks from far away none of that money is going to be staying in our communities business is like ours I mean I am a third generation business owner I'm a fifth generation local to this area you know we are very invested in giving back to our communities we donate to all the youth you know t-ball leagues and that kind of thing I mean we're here for the long haul you know so small businesses like ours the Manpower Resorts that's the kind of stuff that's going to keep minnesotans employed keep us afloat and take care and be stewards of our resources in our place here huge corporations from abroad they don't care They Don't Care About Us they don't care about what the pollution looks like they can walk away from it and that's and that's that so we're really focused on what can we do here to take care of our local communities and what kind of impact can we have and that's really important as the world moves on new technology there's different kinds of mining being proposed and that's where it's really important for people to be thoughtful and discern different types of mining different types of pollution what might happen um you know and that's that's where we want to be thoughtful and careful about what we bring into the environment here in Minnesota we've got such a rich ecosystem here in The Boundary Waters so much water you know talk about resources water is a real Precious resource getting more precious by the year so being careful as minnesotans how we are stewards of that as well as taking care of the people who live here and making sure that people can make a living wage and have good jobs those are all really important parts of the conversation that we're certainly interested in it's clear that mines in water-rich northern Minnesota must strike a delicate balance to preserve those natural resources here to talk about how new minds can do that is Julie Lucas executive director of mining Minnesota which Advocates on behalf of the proposed copper nickel mines welcome Julie welcome back we saw you in the earlier segment thank you so you heard her concerns how would you address those concerns for one I would just say thank you for sharing them and just the fact that we're even having this discussion tonight is part of the reason why we should be happy these oars are located here the fact that these oars are located in Minnesota allows us the opportunity to have people Express concerns and to be able to have you know folks actually share those concerns in public forums and share them with the government officials who do the regulations who do the actual regulating and environmental review and to have conversations like this that the public can participate in and learn and hear a oppose losing thoughts that itself is is a gift to us when it comes to our resources and one that I don't think we should just blow off because it's not common throughout the world so when we look at these or resources um setting aside some of the environmental concerns for now I think one of the things that's interesting and potentially uh problematic is you know when we talk about iron ore we've always sent iron ore out east you know so to speak to Cleveland or Pittsburgh and while the companies haven't always gotten along well with the locals generally speaking it was an understood supply chain you know in the American industry a lot of these new minds looking at the ownership of Mines like polymet or twin metals are international mining companies and while they are established well-established mining companies they're not well known here and they have kind of a checkered record around the world with things like labor or environmental practices in other parts of the world how do we learn to trust or how can we trust these kinds of foreign ownership models it's a that's a tough one because I am uncomfortable when we say foreign ownership because it's foreign investment and it's As Americans we have companies that invest outside of the U.S and so I'm I'm trying to be careful on that because I'm glad people are recognizing the resource we have here and As Americans we don't have a lot of companies within America that have done this type of mining to invest in this area so these companies are coming here and I think it's a great opportunity to bring a Minnesota flavor to what they do and to recognize just that opportunity that's how I see it so but as far as you know you talk about vertical integration kind of as you know when you're talking about iron ore going to steel and so on and so forth I would love to see that next step in our process be in America I would love to see that those ores be processed further in America and those batteries be made in America and all of that be made in America those are all going to require the exact same conversations that we're having about the minds because that next process also will require environmental review discussions of Labor things like that so I hope that is our future to have more of that made here because we're the end users we're the ones that are saying we want these products so we should be saying yes let's dig it here let's process it here let's make these products let's recycle that here all of that should be done here where we are using those looking at the four companies that were mentioned in in the piece earlier the four companies looking at a copper nickel operations in northern Minnesota one of them Talon has looked at has actually signed a agreement of sorts with the Tesla Motor Company the the automotive company so that suggests that they would use the or in electric vehicles where would the ore in these proposals go what would it be used for and what role would that have in our economy there's a wide range we we right now we talk a lot about climate change we talk a lot about electric vehicles because they're shiny but let's not forget nickel is critical to stainless steel the vast majority of nickel right now is going into stainless steel so it's going into well my my wedding ring is stainless steel but it's there it's going into a lot of products that we regularly use so it's we still need to feed that supply chain but we also have as we've previously mentioned all the transmission lines all of we talk about needing new car charging along our highways that's all going to require those Metals all those batteries in those cars all of that is going to require those metals and it's not just about America we sometimes put on our blinders and we think we're the only ones that want to move to Renewables but we have a lot of the world that needs to move to electrification to start with so those Metals worldwide aren't just going to feed Americans desire for green energy it's going to feed a World's desire in some cases just for energy to start with the the iron mining industry has been around a long time in Minnesota 140 some years how long do you see if successful the copper nickel mining industry being around that deposit is massive the Duluth complex and it's not just a Duluth complex so it's we have the Mid-Continent Rift so our continent literally tried to split itself apart this pulled itself apart and then we have the intrusions that we talk about which actually contain the copper nickel and so Tamarack the Talon deposit is not part of the Duluth complex so we've already talked for years now about the Duluth complex and how significant that size is Talon is a whole separate part that isn't part of the Duluth complex so this is not insignificant when you consider Minnesota and you look and say oh my gosh 2 billion years ago we had the iron ore deposit laid down and a billion years ago we had the Duluth complex Mid-Continent Rift and that deposit laid down to have that abutting each other is is amazing for for Minnesota to be part of this nation's past and our future with these two ore bodies it's as a lifelong Minnesotan I just think that's really cool that we get to be a part of that very good well Julie Lucas thank you for joining us thank you all right today didn't know any English at first you didn't realize what was going on yeah he told The Interpreter he was young and strong and he'd come to this country to work he had a cousin in the iron mines in Minnesota and if they'd only let him through the gate he'd get there somehow and go immediately to work that's it yeah wouldn't make any difference they figured that if he could take a chance on the United States sight unseen why the United States could certainly take a chance on him good luck go ahead yeah all he had to do was get to Minnesota Juan Corolla foreign that was an excerpt from the 1944 film an American romance not on a lot of film lists but it was filmed partly on the masabi Range in fact taking place right there in the whole rust Mine Pit near Hibbing and very exciting joining us once again for some final thoughts on the future of mining in Minnesota is JT Haynes Jeff Hansen and Julie Lucas our guests from from earlier and we wanted to end the program on just a kind of a discussion and I we talked about a lot of things today but I I just like in in a wrap up here what for each of you do you think is the greatest challenge facing Northeastern Minnesota as it relates to the mining industry uh going forward and we'll start with JT well the greatest challenge right now is preventing sulfide mind pollution and with regard to the polymer mind the greatest challenge The Proposal is can it meet standards and our position is absolutely it cannot meet standards that's the reason it's been hung up for 15 years and that's the reason it may never move forward I'm sorry to have to be the one to say that but it is proposed a pollution management scheme that has no evidence to back it up it's proposed a Upstream Dam design construction technique that is discredited and dis and been banned around the world it has no end date it has no term these are these are problems that may not ever be resolved so I think what we really need to be doing the challenge for us is to look for options that we can get behind together that will actually work okay Jeff what about you well I think you know polymath is one issue but the mining that we do have here right now is taconite Mining and we know that blast furnaces pollute a lot they're big dinosaurs and they're on their way out I hope our taconite industry is not on its way out with those blasters I get excited about the possibility of having new forms of iron that have positive environmental impacts reduced greenhouse gas emissions that help the nation go green with our Iron and Steel and if we can be a part of that while adding new good iron jobs here coconut mining I think that is extremely positive and I get very excited about it Julie what about you what are the challenges facing Northeastern Minnesota as it relates to the mining industry well I can't speak to the iron but I will say for us and copper nickel our biggest challenge will be educating folks as to how the mining industry has evolved and what we can do in the future and why it's okay to be evaluating these projects in northern Minnesota and why we can do it differently great so I want to kind of wrap on this final thought you know we've talked about a lot of things what most excites you most excites you about the future as it relates to our industry here and what might be possible for northern Minnesota and and I guess let me go the other way how about you yeah what most excites me is just the opportunity and the discussions that we're going to have as I mentioned this discussion brings us all to the table to talk about Solutions and to talk about things like recycling that we haven't historically been great at discussing I'm glad we're just we're talking about recycling because I've seen what it takes to bring that ore into a product and we need to be respecting those products and we need to keep those Metals in circulation once they're there and these discussions help us have those you know more discussions about planned obsolescence thank you for bringing that up and things like that so I'm excited that we as minnesotans can hopefully push this discussion forward for Americans to be having more Jeff what about you um first off I'd like to agree with a lot of these points about what excites but I'd like to focus in on something very specific and that with going greener on the steel and the iron in Minnesota that does allow us to deal with the issue that we've had and I've been working on for over 12 years now which is a sulfate issue and if we can solve that in the process of this respecting the Native American tribes who have been complaining about that for a long time protect their wild rice in a better way okay avoiding other Downstream problems itself it is in this process I think that's exciting uh we do need to work together on issues and not just shout about it across the fence but really work on solutions that do protects and this is applied first off to the taconite industry but sulfur in the taconite industry is it any different than the sulfur and the sulfide mining industry not really it's the same element so we learn from our experience in the one operation that may be able to help some in the other mining that we don't have yet I get excited about that Prospect JT well part of the problem with sulfide mining is it does produce sulfuric acid which leaches heavy metals into the water but anyway to answer your question the thing I'm excited about first and foremost is the beautiful place we live we have one of the greatest places in the planet we have amazing forests and biodiversity and water and resources that we all enjoy and I hear everyone talking about that that is really exciting I'm also excited that we seem to have some things in common here about things we can do to improve the industry right now which is can we you know address the sulfate issue that everyone agrees is a problem can we decarbonize the steel industry and move forward with a more sustainable more robust more competitive steel industry right here in Minnesota those things excite me especially because it's an opportunity to work together on some things and can we support some things together that brings everybody to the table we got to bring the downstream folks to the table we haven't been at the table for a while on some of these proposals and I think that's part of the reason we've seen some of these divisions we got to get everyone in there and let's work on these things together very good well thank you all uh real quick what's your favorite Iron Range food really yeah that's an easy one okay walleye uh pasties for sure Sunday Iron Range past you Festival yeah I'm doing the shout out right now that's right it is that's right so the corn Cornwall I'm from my the bronzer from Cornwall so we've got uh pasty uh literally slowly clogging through my arteries as we speak it's genetic okay thanks to our guests for sharing their time and expertise on our show tonight if you missed any part of this program you can watch it on our website wdse.org for producers Greg Grell and Megan McGarvey I'm Erin Brown good night foreign