So based on your research and of course on your opinion, tell us why do African-Americans need reparations, and if we don't do that, what is the likelihood that we solve the inequality that we all live with?

>>Well, our inability to pay the unpaid debt is still with us, that the racial wealth divide where we see white families' median wealth eight times that of black families is a direct result of the systemic exclusion of assets or of subsidies that we are owed, and this continues to this day.

In addition, the sort of framework, if you will, of denying African-Americans public subsidies that other populations enjoy was taken up in different ways in more contemporary context, so you have housing discrimination, you have criminal justice bias, you have business discrimination.

All of these follow a certain path that black people were denied what they are due.

And so, there's a real cost that black people still have to pay, a real penalty.

My research shows that homes in black neighborhoods compared to areas where there are few black people in them are under priced by 23%, about 48,000 per home cumulatively.

That's about 156 billion in lost equity in black neighborhoods, and this is particularly true in Detroit where so many black people used to own homes, but could not hold onto them because of the housing crisis, and let me just bring this back to wealth.

When you have less wealth, it's harder to withstand the economic shocks that inevitably occur.

Those who had wealth could survive the housing crisis better.

Those who had wealth could survive the pandemic, can withstand environmental hurdles.

And so, that lack of wealth really predicts for lower outcomes in every other area.

So, this is an issue that has not gone away.

People say, "Oh, I didn't own any slaves."

Well, the impact of slavery, the impact of Jim Crow racism, the impact of housing discrimination is still with us, and by the way, we're not asking individuals to pay for reparations.

We're asking the federal government, state governments, local municipalities to pay and also institutions because we can't let them off the hook.

So, colleges and universities, churches.

So I'm encouraged by what's happening all across the country with these local efforts, but hopefully, they will move up to the national level.

>>Yeah, so I wanna talk about the practical end of this with you as well, the form of reparations.

So, you just threw out a number, $156 billion, that gap between what white families in America have been able to to earn through property ownership and what African-Americans have been able to do.

I mean, that's a huge number, but we throw huge numbers all of the time (laughs) out with federal spending, but what is the way, what is the way to make up that gap?

Is it through some sort of payment, or is there a more creative spectrum of things that we ought be thinking about to make that number go away?

>>Well remember, reparations is mostly about the claims people can have around systemic oppression, so there are different types of claims made.

When you're talking about slavery and unpaid labor, you're talking about a check.

When you're talking about housing discrimination, you're talking about down payment assistance and the like, and so it really depends on the claim.

My colleague, Rashaun Ray, and I put out a report not that long ago where we outline a a series of steps, including cash payments, but also including scholarships to make college free.

We also include business grants because we know that businesses were denied opportunities.

We also include other subsidies, so I think it's a range of approaches coming from multiple levels.

Again, when you're talking about housing discrimination, for instance, there was housing discrimination on the part of federal, state, and local ordinances, entities.

So, all of those institutions, all of those levels of government have some responsibility to pay, so it's gonna look different.

And that 156 billion, it was only in the case of housing devaluation, and I just wanna put this in perspective.

In just that one area, 156 billion would've financed more than 4 million black-owned businesses based upon the average amount black people used to start their firms.

It would've paid for 8 million four-year degrees based upon the average amount of a four-year public education.

It would've replaced the pipes in Flint, Michigan 3,000 times over, covered nearly all of Hurricane Katrina damage, and it's double the annual economic burden of the opioid crisis.

It's a big number.

So when you're talking about reparations which falls in anywhere in the area of three to $17 trillion based upon the model you use, you could see a dramatic shift in how black people live.

And again, I just want to emphasize this, and I say this like it keeps my teeth white, that there's nothing wrong with black people that ending racism can't solve, that when people talk about what's wrong with with black communities, they blame black people.

Thich Nhat Hanh, the Vietnamese philosopher who recently died once said that if you're growing a head of lettuce and it's not growing, you don't blame the lettuce.

You look to see if it's getting sunlight.

You look to see if the soil's enriched, if it's getting rainwater.

You don't blame the lettuce, but when it comes to black communities, we're constantly blaming the lettuce and not looking at the policies that still inflict harm and penalty on us.

So for me, reparations is about healing, is a moral debt as was mentioned, it's a fiscal one, and this one more point that this idea that we can't handle a check is ridiculous.

Just this past pandemic, you actually saw two things happen.

When Millennials had their student loans frozen, guess what happened?

We saw small bump in home ownership, and the the relief packages has actually caused an uptick in black businesses, particularly microbusinesses.

And so black people used their stimulus checks to start new businesses.

Why wouldn't they start more businesses with more money?

I mean, the evidence is pretty clear that when given a opportunity, we take it.

>>Reverend Watson, it's always good to see you, but it's especially good to see you today