The school to prison pipeline is not just a term used to describe the educational system.

It's a reality that impacts millions of children.

Our school systems are built on a flawed funding system that determines the quality of children's education by the zip code they live in.

This is the result of years of systemic racism and white supremacy.

Poor and minority children are left to struggle with less than adequate schools and facilities, while those who live in suburbs are given greater opportunity because of the quality of their education.

Some school districts are striving to close the achievement gap by adopting an anti-racist philosophy and hiring individuals who can work on issues of diversity, equity and community engagement to increase the opportunities to people in marginalized communities.

Hi, I'm Pastor Phillip Davis, the host of Courageous Conversations.

Joining me today are Phoebe Harris, the school board director of the Allentown School District, and Dr Lucretia Brown, PhD.

She's the deputy superintendent, serves in the area of equity, accountability and school improvement for the Allentown School District.

She provides strategic leadership for all equity initiatives within the Allentown School District to maximize equitable educational opportunities, employment practices and community engagement.

Sit tight.

We'll be right back.

Well, thank you both for taking the time to join me to have this very courageous conversation.

Any time you start talking about race, diversity, equity, you know, community engagement, you know, it makes people uncomfortable.

But that's why we call it a courageous conversation.

So we're really grateful for you both taking the time out to join us today.

I want to start with you, Phoebe.

Why did you run for the Allentown School Board and why was it important for you to have a voice?

- Why did I run?

First off, I'm a mom.

My son, when we move here, he was in eighth grade.

He has an IEP, so he had special considerations and then also, 2016, my beloved father, Bishop Huey Harris Sr passed away and I went through a year of mourning and I did more because I was a daddy's girl.

And then 2017 came and everybody lost their mind.

We just lost our minds.

And I said, "OK, what can I do to honor my father?"

Education was so important to him.

He was on the board.

He was asked to be on the Cecil College Board.

But we have 13 kids in our family.

Eight girls, five boys.

My parents were married 65 years before my father passed away .

- That's a gift.

- Right.

And they were from the Jim Crow south, 1929, 1933.

So they grew up in that era and migrated to California when my father was nine.

And... ..education was the most important thing.

The thing at my house was education, the great equalizer.

They can't take it from you.

They can't beat it out of you.

- Right.

Right.

That's good.

And so your move was to really help to engage the community of Allentown, but also to bring equity to the Allentown school district.

- I noticed in Pennsylvania we do things by districts and that's not cool to me.

And I'm from Maryland, we do things by county.

So county money is split between all the students.

So, you know, and I found out that it wasn't, I was trying to figure out why my son wasn't getting the same education he got in Maryland that he was receiving here.

And that was a big disparity.

And I was like, "This is crazy."

So, yeah, I ran.

I was a mom on a mission.

- That's good.

Run, mom, run.

- Yes.

- Well, Doc, you came to the district about six years ago.

Can you talk a little about a little bit about your role and what you found when you arrived in Allentown?

- Sure.

So, coming into the district in September, 2015, was really prompted by a consent decree that was rooted in the Junior Doe case that had occurred a few years prior to my coming into the district, in one of our elementary schools.

So the job advertisement was for Title Nine compliance, come in and help the district move through this consent decree.

And I was a little disenchanted with the Commonwealth at that time with regards to equity.

I had come from Maryland, also, spent some time there, and I thought, "This is great, I'll get Title Nine experience "and I'll move on."

And the funny story is, my first day, HR met me in the parking lot and I thought, "Man, this is weird, he got my "parking spot", like, "I can find the number", and the director of HR said, "You're going to spend the day "with the superintendent", which at that time was Dr Mayo.

And I said, why?

And he said, "Well, he wants to talk about equity".

And I thought, "Oh, man, he's not going to want to hear "what I have to say".

So I went in and, just the back story, my family is from educators and in the church.

And so when I started in this work, my aunt always said, "You know, you serve somebody higher than anybody "at that table, so I always do what's fair, what's just".

So I went and I was like, "I'm just going to tell them "you don't have it, sir.

You don't have a policy.

"You don't have a budget.

You don't have the position".

Little old me.

And he just stared at me and I stared back and he said, "Well, we're going to work".

So every week I would go in there with different plans and strategies and ultimately the board got involved and decided to prioritize equity.

And I was invited to a board retreat.

I presented there.

And then we moved into a leadership shift.

And that's when new board members were coming in, a new administration at that time.

But I would have to give kudos to the board for maintaining the prioritization, as Miss Harris said, her coming in and other board members coming in remained steadfast to the prioritization of equity and did so through the superintendent at that time, which gave space and pathway for real work to be advanced in the district.

- That's exciting.

So how important is board support for, you know, equity, inclusion, diversity, community engagement?

Why is that important?

Because I can see a position like yours starting, but without that support in the board getting behind you, it can be a problem.

- We govern and we make policy.

So, in order for us to move forward, especially with, you know, making sure that equity is district-wide, not on one, school to school, here or there.

No, district wide.

We have to make sure that we make policies, that make sure that protocols are followed, that you just don't do it in one school and you don't do in the other.

No, it's district-wide.

- Yeah, that's like equal education for everyone.

- Correct.

- It's interesting, because when you think about... - It's not just equal education, it's equity.

- OK, I got that.

- Both and.

- Both and.

I was thinking about it, actually did a little research, and I pulled up a report that showed the disparity in what districts spend on their children based on the demographics of where they live, their zip code, essentially.

And as I said in the intro, the zip code can determine the quality of education.

Can you talk a little bit about why that funding is the way it is?

I know it has its history and its root in the systemic racism of America.

Keeping black folks out of specific communities, not extending mortgages to black folks.

So therefore, the tax base is not in place.

But why is it still existing, you know, now?

- Because those practices still exist.

So they may not have those historical names of redlining or things of that nature, but the practice and the system still exists until we have folks in in municipal government and state government and federal government dismantle those systems of privilege and status quo.

And so a lot of the work that we were trying to do or trying to do in the Allentown school system is dismantle systems of privilege.

So when you talk about being equitable and equal, you want to make sure that equality means resources and supports for those who need it.

There was an initiative where I was able to help our team identify those schools that are in the most impoverished neighborhoods by zip code, but doing it for benefit.

So that's where we load up front load resources, funding staff, all that those administrators and teachers need to really level the playing field because we can't really change laws and things of that nature.

But we can try to support and give high dosage tutoring, high dosage resources and supports to help those students and families.

- It seems that we're so far behind the eight ball.

The numbers that I showed, that I researched, showed the Saucon Valley was spending about $21,000 per student.

In Allentown school district, was around $12,000.

I mean, just the disparity in that level of investment means facilities, means instructors, means quality of education.

There's so many things that surround that and it impacts the future trajectory of our kids, because as you said, education is the great equalizer and it's so important.

Has there been pushback from the systems of power to accept the work of equity and inclusion and diversity within the school district?

What have you experienced from a board perspective?

And then I'd like to hear, Doc, as well.

- I think it's pushback from the board level.

Because once Dr Brown presents something, and she's very thorough, she's very thorough.

- That's good, kudos.

- it makes sense.

So we have no choice but to do it because failure is not an option for us.

So, you know, that's there.

As far as what, you know, as far as the budget goes and as far as getting the money from the state and from the federal government, we now have a representative, Susan Wild, who is making sure that we get that money.

I have to give it to her.

You know, and she's making sure because she's on the education committee, she's making sure that we get that money.

Senator Brown, he is the finance appropriation.

And the school district went along with the lawsuit.

I didn't like that.

And I don't because I know for a fact that he's given us more than we should be, more than what other people are getting.

We're getting 400% more than other school districts because he knows Allentown needs that.

Hehe has people who are part of our school district, are part of Allentown.

He understands what we need.

And he has always fought for that.

And I thank him for that completely.

Senator Brown, thank you very much for looking out for Allentown.

- Sure.

Because the district needs it.

- And then also Peter Swire and Mike Schlossberg, they look out for us, too.

And the representative part of it, because they know, they live here.

Peter is my neighbor.

His daughter goes to the school district, going through, you know, they go through public school.

So does Mike's children.

They go to public school and they are invested.

They got a horse in this race.

They got a nickel in this dime.

- Skin in the game.

- Skin in the game.

- So this is what's needed.

And so they do those things for us.

And I appreciate them for doing that.

- Wonderful.

Doctor, can you talk a little bit about some of the programs that you've been able to bring to the Allentown School District to help level the playing field and help engage our community, as well as inspire our children to go beyond high school, because the dropout rates are just horrific when you think about what's happening, but it looks like things are moving in the right direction.

- Can you talk a little about what you have done so far?

- Sure.

Any of the programs, I have to go back to the board's vision and how they set forth the priorities of increase and improve access to college and career.

So in that vein, partnerships sit within the Equity, Accountability and School Improvement Division.

We have a partnership with the century fund where we developed a six strand initiative, if you will, inclusive of six partners, United Way, Communities and Schools, Workforce Board, the local Headstart providers.

And it's a cradle to career or college program.

- That's amazing.

- It was funded to the tune of $6 million over the course of three years.

And early college is a part of that as well.

And what we did, based on the vision of our board, we identified students to participate in early college and career.

But what we did was we made the criteria more objective and more inclusive.

So rather than focusing on parent recommendation, because then you assume that parents understand this system that we're trying to navigate.

And I have a PhD and I often struggle with my own kids' system, so you can imagine, you know, other parents.

We remove the whole teacher recommendation piece, not remove it, but not make it the primary, because, again, we've not gotten to that individual part of change that we'll need to take this work over the finish line.

When you talk about implicit and explicit bias, we started very broad purpose, purposely, so that if there was resistance, it wouldn't be something that could stop the work.

Because now folks are obligated to move objectively rather than subjectively.

We expanded our offerings for pre-K, so we've increased our pre-K classrooms in partnership with the local child Headstart program.

And that's important as the board set forth in our strategic framework for exposure to early childhood education.

Grade three reading is always a priority, but you have to address grade three reading from birth and earlier.

When you get to grade three, it's a little bit too late.

That starts remediation.

So we have those programs.

We have a priority of STEM.

We partner with The Da Vinci Center, where they're providing us support and professional development for our teachers, particularly in the third and fourth grades, because we know that fourth grade is a testing grade for science.

So, again, front loading and high dosage resources and supports.

We also partnered with the National Educational Equity Lab, most recently to again expand college offerings, but this time, not just with our local colleges.

Howard University.

- OK.

Some HBCU.

- Yes.

Yale.

University of Connecticut.

So those out of region resources that give our kids the exposure and access that they need to compete on the world stage.

- That's so exciting.

It seems like it's very inclusive from I think you said from crib to career.

What an exciting thought, in that it seems like it could be a national model to really address these issues of disparity that are national issues.

So, from the board's perspective, how do you see the progress and what do you what are your hopes for the future of the district?

- Well, I thank goodness we're Century funded.

And I was in the original meeting with Dr Parker and the Century fund board members when they talked about what their vision was for Allentown.

And Lee Butz.

Oh, my God.

When he explained it to me, I cried because it was like, we want to make sure we fund this so that from cradle to career, career or college, we're going to make sure those are our children in Allentown are set to succeed.

Are set to succeed.

That means we get hope.

We get help.

I always explain to people, you know, the American dream.

We as black and Hispanic people, we don't get the American dream from get go.

We do not.

We get the American hope.

We get the American hope.

Where the American dream is, because, you know, you start you start with the education and if you decide to go to college or career, you're set.

Where upon... We face problems in education, systemic racism is real, it's very real.

So then we got to overcome that, then we got to go, we've got to reach those goals and be able to, you know, finally be able to get the dream.

But first we have the hope.

So with that hope, we can get the dream.

So when Century fund came to us, I was like, "It's hope.

It's hope towards the dream."

- And they brought dollars.

- They bought dollars, millions of dollars.

- That's a game changer, because a lot of times you can have vision, but without resource.

- They invested.

- Does the Allentown schools, because this is a problem across the nation, Does the Allentown school district staff and administration reflect the population that it's serving?

- It does not.

- What are some of the steps that you're taking to try to bring some equity to that?

- Again, starting with incremental change.

Really working with our HR department to understand diverse recruitment.

Because you will continue to get the same sort of inputs if you only advertise and seek folks in the same area.

So if we post on the regular Pennsylvania places, it has become standard now, knock on wood, that we advertise in diverse places, a loss for Latin and Hispanic candidates, AASA, National Association of Black Educators.

Any of those places where we typically didn't seek out candidates.

And then we have an HR system where I can actually ask for reports and I can see the number of minority candidates.

So again, making things objective and removing subjectivity so that people's bias can't play in.

So if I get the report and I'm like, we only had two minority applicants, perhaps we need to repost.

I'm starting there, working with our teams to learn to objectify or make objective interview criteria.

Because this, and I call it central PA, and people argue with that.

But you know what I'm talking about.

This central PA corridor was allowed to exist uninterrupted.

It's not like Philly, it's not like Pittsburgh.

- It's a great terminology.

- Uninterrupted.

And so their systems of status quo were allowed to live long, long beyond when we were diversifying Philly and integrating Pittsburgh.

And so now we're starting to have these conversations and see diverse candidates that are qualified.

Because it's one thing to bring in diverse candidates that you know aren't qualified.

Now we're starting to see it and now we've got to get the practices standardized at the different levels of leadership as we seek to move the district forward.

And hopefully one day we will see better representation.

But right now, we're trying to put some standardized practices in place to help people experience that mind shift that they need.

- Yeah, that's so important.

You know, when I was working with a school district in Easton, and, you know, we were talking about diversifying their populations, and so we had a conversation.

I said, well, where are you looking for students?

Millersville, Kutztown?

I said, well, the problem is you're not fishing where the fish are biting.

They didn't understand what I was saying.

And I brought up the terminology.

I said, are you looking HBCUs?

HR and Superintendent.

What's a HBCU?

I said, it's a historically black college and university, and so myself and about five or six individuals got funded by the state.

We went, we started at Delaware State, drove through, stopped at Morgan, you know, went down to University Circle down in Georgia and we brought back 148 applications of qualified students who were graduating.

And out of that 148, zero got hired.

So what we understood is the problem is deeply systemic.

And the system had permeated this idea that you can do whatever you want on the outside, but if you don't begin to challenge the system, you'll bring those applications in.

They'll end up in 513.

And so we understand.

And so when you talk about being intentional, about incremental change and putting in practices that will bring about sustainable change, critically important, critically important.

How is the board supporting those ideas of diversifying staff, diversifying teachers, administrators, as well as the contracts that are happening in Allentown?

- We're definitely supporting that, especially through the HR system, and Dr Brown can talk about more about that than I do because it's her baby.

Well, we just follow her.

- Yeah, I love that.

It's not the tail wagging the dog.

So often that's the case.

But it sounds like there is a level of autonomy and, not autonomy, but a level of authority to really bring sustainable change.

And then a new superintendent was just hired after we lost who I thought was an amazing superintendent.

But you all were able to go out and find an African-American male to come in to Allentown.

Talk a little bit about that and why it's important to have the best representation.

From the Superintendent, perspective and how that support will help.

- That would be me.

That was a board decision.

And we searched.

We searched.

And we made sure we got the best of the best of the best of the applicants.

And the man has two degrees, two doctorate degree, one in law.

That's what we need.

Because who's going to be able to go to the state and to the federal government to get what our students need?

- Absolutely.

- He is.

And he's my age.

So he's my peer.

- He's a little bit older than me.

- Young man.

- But he he's my peer, so he understands what it took for us in the 80s.

For us in the 80s, who grew up and that were educated in the 80s, what it took for us to get our education.

- Right.

Right.

Absolutely.

- And to make sure that we got it and received it and got all the things that we needed.

So he understands what our students are facing.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- People don't realize what our students are facing.

So he understands what black men and Hispanic men are facing.

- And if I could just add to that from a research perspective, when you have applicant pools that are majority, female and minority, the research says you're more likely to be more fair and just in how you critique their backgrounds.

And so I would argue and share that that along with the governance body, the applicant pool, based on their priority and preference with the search committee, was far more diverse than it has been.

And so that's part of the key to leveling the playing field, making sure that you're recruiting applicants and you have a very diverse pool.

- Yeah, yeah.

I think it makes a difference, too, to see someone at the helm who looks like the students.

And I understand that.

I think there's a trickle down that comes along with that, because for so long, historically, what we've seen with 80% to 85% of even the teaching pool being white females, so our black and brown children are seeing a picture of themselves.

And in many districts, there's more African-American janitors than there are teachers and administrators and security.

So what we see is, we are, and nothing wrong with being a janitor.

It pays well, security.

But the idea is that we become what we see.

And we don't aspire to those higher levels of achievement.

So, I'm sorry.

- No, I was fine.

- But, you know, he's not going to be there for our black and Hispanic students, but also for our white students as well, because one of the things that falls through the cracks is gifted and talented.

Who is going to make sure that their programs continue?

Who's going to make sure that our early college continues?

So those are things he's bringing.

He's bringing a wealth of information to us.

- Absolutely.

- And see your point about students seeing themselves in leadership.

The same holds true for adults, because many of us as minority leaders don't always see ourselves in the superintendent chair.

And so it's always great when you see a minority candidate.

And now, and because, I just do this and I'm always an advocate for fairness and justice, hopefully we'll begin to see African-American women and LatinX Hispanic women in the same position because that gives us hope as leaders and aspirational goals as we sit in these positions.

- Wow.

It's so exciting.

I mean, we could talk all day about the things that you all are doing and how you're impacting the lives of individuals.

And when I opened up, I said the school to prison pipeline is not just a terminology.

It is connected to lives and generations.

And you all are doing tremendous and wonderful work.

I want to give you kind of the last word.

When you think about Allentown School District, what are your hopes, your visions and your dreams for a more fair and equitable school district?

- I would say that that the work, the true work, the true chance, transformation and organizational change of equity continues to be anchored in the district in principal and result, because we get the vernacular and we can talk about it.

But when it comes to looking at student outcomes, their access and their opportunity, is it really there and are we really committed to it in principle?

- Wow, wow.

And so just to continue on with it, your tenure there with the district, you've been there six years and the work that you're doing is just tremendous work.

Have you considered a long term commitment to the district?

- I am committed to the district as long as there's board support and as long as equity is prioritized in principal and results.

- Yes, that's good, because so often we end up losing talented, gifted, passionate individuals because the support is not there.

And they don't prioritize the things that you're trying to accomplish.

And it sounds to me like you've got a good relationship with the board and you're giving you the freedom to really impact and do significant work, long lasting, sustainable work in the Allentown school district.

I'd like to thank you both for taking the time to come and have this conversation.

You know, it's so important that we can highlight the work of individuals like yourself, not only in Allentown, but in the whole Lehigh Valley, because what it does, it helps to change the narrative.

It helps to inform our viewing audience that there is work that is going on and that the need for that work continues to be real.

And we're talking about changing lives and changing generations and changing futures.

And the work that you all are doing is just so tremendous.

I hope the best for you all.

I hope the best for the Allentown School District.

And when you're done in Allentown, bleed over in the east, we need some help.

But the national model, I feel like it's a national model that's being developed that can help marginalized students from all over the United States.

So thank you both for your great work.

Thank you for the work you're doing in the community.

And make sure you come back and give us an update not long from now.

So, yeah, absolutely.

So on behalf of everyone here at PBS39, I'm Pastor Phillip Davis.

I'd like to thank you for tuning in to Courageous Conversations.

Keep being courageous.

And we'll see you next week.