Too often, the narrative on African-American women is portrayed as one of angry, uneducated, violent and incapable.

Society has painted a picture of African-American women in less than a complimentary way.

Courageous Conversations exists to educate, inform and inspire by changing the narrative and presenting my viewing audience with pictures that are antithetical to the images that have been presented in the past.

Are you courageous enough to have this conversation?

Hi, my name is Phillip Davis, the host of Courageous Conversations.

We're broadcasting from the PPL Public Media Center in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

I have some phenomenal black women with me today, Alisha Melvin Esquire, president and founder of Melvern and Associates law firm and Monsoon Real Estate Resource Group.

Rosalyn M. Brock, chief global equity officer at ABT Associates and the youngest person to ever serve as the chairperson of the NAACP.

She is now chairperson emeritus of the National Board of Directors for the NAACP.

Judge Lori Dumas.

She serves as judge on the Court of Common Pleas in Philadelphia, and she's a candidate for the Commonwealth Court of Common Pleas.

Thank you all for taking the time to join me.

Judge Dumas, I want to jump right in with you.

You're running for a state level judgeship.

Why is this historic and why do you believe now is the time for a candidate like yourself?

- Thank you and good morning.

And if not now, then when?

We live in Pennsylvania, where we have, out of three appellate courts, we have one person of color, we have one black woman, one, out of three appellate courts.

And so I am running for the Commonwealth Court and at this time there are absolutely no people of color on that bench, on the superior court level, no people of color except for the one, and on the Supreme Court, none.

So it is time for Pennsylvania to catch up and to realize that black women have a whole lot to offer and they need to experience that from courts that are extremely important to all of us.

- Thank you so much for that, Judge.

Just thinking about, you know, the 300 year history and yet even on the Supreme Court, there's no representation of people of color, now, Rosalyn, you're the youngest person to ever be the chairperson of the NAACP.

How has the rash of shootings after the George Floyd verdict impacted the work that you all do?

And I know you're now emeritus, but I'm sure you're still engaged and involved.

- Well, the more than a century long work of civil rights and justice in America continues with the NAACP, it didn't begin with the George Ford murder and it won't end.

We just have had to redouble our efforts to try to bring justice and equality in America, particularly when some in our political arena think that racism does not exist in our nation.

And so we are reaching out and are pleased with the multicultural, multi-ethnic individuals who are coming to the awakening that race matters in this country and the pendulum of justice is quickly moving backwards for many communities of color.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you for that.

And I can imagine just the plethora of challenges that you all face on many fronts across the country.

Now, Alisha, I read your bio and in your bio, it mentioned that you were born to a 17-year-old mother, but now you're a licensed attorney, owner of multiple businesses, licensed real estate broker in multiple states.

What motivated you to avoid the traps that so many people who are born into a single family, specifically in the African-American community, fall into?

What was it that inspired and motivated you to arise?

- Well, actually, just a quick correction.

I am that 17-year-old teen mom who made the decision to just become an entrepreneur at a young age and then further along in life utilize my skills as a hairstylist to put myself through law school to get a law degree.

And I can definitely look at the judge and absolutely, totally agree.

When you're talking about 96% of our industry, it's 85, 15, 15% of women of color or other ethnicities across the board and the 85% being Caucasians.

It definitely was a field that I felt that I needed to enter so that I can help and serve others.

And so there was the motivation.

- I mean, just considering the fact, I believe you're from New Jersey, the inner city, and I can imagine that there were so many around you that really fell into the trap, but you were able to avoid that.

What was the driving thing behind you being able to break out of the mold, if you say that?

- Well, I just always had a different drive.

I did not like growing up in the inner city.

I did not like being poor.

And I just set my mind to that, just as a little girl, that one day I was going to pull myself up, now I'm in Texas, by my bootstraps and kinda go get that education.

And so basically that driving force was just the desire not to be poor, the desire to want to assist in the community.

And for some reason, I don't know where something like that comes from, that power, that wanting, that need to want to help others.

I have no idea where it comes from.

But what I am thankful for is that I recognized it and I pursued it despite the obstacles.

- Thank you.

- And I didn't listen to people tell me that I couldn't.

- Thank you for that.

I mean, it can be inspirational to a young girl who may be in the same situation.

Judge Dumas, you yourself became a judge at 32 years old.

What happened with you?

What was the drive for you, you know, pursuing law and then ultimately becoming a judge?

- I think like Alisha, you know, it was something innate, you know, the desire to always help and to advocate on behalf of others.

Even as a young person, I can remember always standing up for, you know, the kids that got picked on.

Right?

So it was something that...

I just had a very negative taste for injustice, no matter what it was, even if it was over a piece of candy.

You know, and my mom and I, you know, I love her dealing.

My mom is deceased now, but she was tough.

But I you know, I would stand up to her and I didn't accept just what was.

I would always ask why and why is it like that and why can't it be different?

And so that just followed me and it just undergirded my journey to become a lawyer.

And then, you know, being in the law and seeing once again the injustices that poor people and undereducated people were receiving through the courts, I needed to do something more.

And that's what led me to the courts.

- That's amazing, being able to give back and make a positive impact on your community.

And I talked about Courageous Conversations, right?

Painting a different picture, changing a narrative of what we see in the media so often, when black women are portrayed, they're portrayed in a negative light.

And you all really give a different perspective.

Rosalyn, you've devoted your whole life to civil rights, ensuring equity and diversity for all.

What was it for you?

What motivated you to really become passionate about making a significant difference?

- I've had some really powerful mentors in my life, but as a black woman, we all know that where and when we enter, we bring not only ourselves, we bring our families and our whole communities with us.

And so I have always believed that I had a responsibility and an obligation to give back, to say thank you for those who have gone before and who've paved the road for me to be where I am today.

And I think that my trademark mantra is courage.

Let's not skip this generation.

And I believe that as black women, we have this innate, as my sisters have already stated, this innate ability to be, to do and to rise to the occasion to make a difference wherever we are, despite the odds.

We are the force of when that changes the atmosphere to any room and situation that we enter.

And I'm just so proud to be a woman of color and particularly a black woman in this day and age.

- Yes.

And so now you're doing global equity and inclusion for ABT and actually writing a plan in regards to it.

And I know you have to kind of go soon, but can you talk a little bit about why you believe that equity, inclusion, diversity, and you're doing it on a global level, which is pretty amazing, why is it important?

Why is it necessary and why is it necessary now?

- I'm really excited.

It's ABT Associates and I actually start next week.

And so we wish to kind of level up the gains and to bring the lessons learned from the length and breadth of this nation to a national stage, but also to bring the national lessons, because some of our sisters and brothers in the broader global village have done much more as it relates to women in leadership, gender equity than we have and are in the United States.

We are grappling with the issue of racial justice and racial equity, because, again, as I've stated, there are some who still believe that race doesn't matter or black lives don't matter.

And, you know, that's a misnomer.

We believe that all lives matter, but in particular black lives matter because they are the ones who are most at risk, or at risk at this time, as it relates to aggressive policing, environmental justice issues, health equity issues, economic issues.

But let's just be clear.

We can't get in a situation where we're all at the bottom of the well, fighting each other for who's last.

And so when we think about leveling the playing field, we have to understand that as we look to the future, those people who will be coming into the workforce and to the judgeship, to my judge, I wish you all the best and we'll support you, that it will be women of color, it will be new immigrants, young people and women, black women, women of color.

And look who sits in the second highest position in the office of the land, a woman of color.

And it's about time that we can get a return on our investments in the political arena.

So I'm not being political, and I want everyone to vote in midterm election.

I don't care if you're Republican or Democrat or independent, we just need you to vote and go out and vote for people who share your values, your vision and your wishes and your beliefs.

That's who we need to vote for.

And so I think that we need to be able to move the needle and make this nation what it ought to be, one nation under God, indivisible, and liberty, not just for some, but liberty really for all.

- That's wonderful, Rosalyn, thank you for that.

And it's so important, right?

From voting to representation to engaging in community to running for office, it's important that we are engaged.

Judge Dumas, I want to ask you a question really quickly in regards to your candidacy.

What is it that you want people to know about your candidacy and you as a candidate for this judgeship?

- So I think that, first of all, I need to bring Rosalyn on my team, because I need Rosalyn on my team, but I think that, you know, the last part that she talked about, and liberty for all and justice for all, and that's really what I want people to remember when they think about Judge Dumas and justice for all.

That's who I am.

That's what I believe.

That is at the fabric of my being.

And I have led a career that speaks just that.

Everyone who has ever come into my courtroom has been treated with respect and with dignity.

I expect it from others, not just myself.

And I believe that everybody deserves to have their day in court.

That's what they're there for.

They deserve justice, whatever that looks like.

And I just want people to know that for me, as a young person who came to the court, I've been there for now almost 20 years and I've grown up on the court.

So I know what I'm doing.

I have served with distinction and I want to continue to serve from a level that now impacts us, the whole state.

The decisions from this court impact the whole state at one time.

To have that type of privilege is just amazing, and I intend to do right and what is just from a court that impacts every last one of us that lives in Pennsylvania.

- Well, thank you so much.

Alisha, you mentioned that not only do you do real estate development, not only are you a licensed attorney, but you trademarked "Lawyertor".

So that's lawyer slash realtor.

You're the only one that does both.

Right?

And it's hard enough getting a law degree, but then becoming a broker in a real estate agency and doing business development, and you're also a business coach so can you give us a little bit about Lawyertor, why you did that and then about your coaching?

Like, why do you feel it's important to coach others?

- OK. Well, Lawyertor, actually, it's funny how life goes full circle.

And one of the things that was mentioned on here is about the diversity and inclusion, and what I wanted to do as I became a licensed attorney and I thought, oh, well, I'll leave here and I'll become a real estate agent.

And then I thought that I would become a real estate agent and put myself through school, through law school.

But it actually happened the opposite way around.

I had to go back to doing here to put myself through law school.

And while I was there, I just always knew I was going to go back in real estate, because I loved it.

I developed Lawyertor to because after so many people discouraging me, telling me that I couldn't be a probate real estate attorney and then own my own brokerages, I just went for it and trademarked the name "Lawyertor", which stands for lawyer and real estate broker.

I say that to say, just hold your dreams close to your heart, because people will tell you that you can't do things that are abnormal.

And I thought that you can.

And the reason that I went out to set up my own businesses, my own companies, it's exactly for that diversity, inclusion, purpose.

I am a government contractor.

I am not just a real estate broker but I own my own real estate brokerages in three states, in New York, Texas and Pennsylvania.

And I did that and I'm pending DC because DC has so much.

I'm 8a certified by the federal government and I hold national certifications as a minority woman owned business for both my law firm and my real estate brokerage.

So I coined the term Lawyertor as a brand.

And what I do with that brand is just coach others.

And so I trademarked it.

- Well, thank you.

Ros, before you go, and I know you have to transition off and go change the world, are there any thoughts that you'd like to leave with our viewers today?

- I really do.

If I can speak to the young women of all races, creeds and colors, that you have to keep the faith and don't let anybody tell you that you cannot succeed.

My sister Alisha has said it, Judge Lori has said it.

With faith in God, with faith in yourself, this society cannot present you with anything that you cannot handle and that you just need to be willing to be persistent, know your worth and keep the faith.

That's what I'd like to share.

When the going gets tough and some of the tough get going, we just need to be able to stand firm and see how things will manifest themselves if you keep your faith.

- Thank you so much.

I appreciate you taking the time out of your extremely busy schedule to be with us this morning.

I want to come back to Judge Dumas.

Can you talk to us a little bit about why it's important for people to vote in local and state elections?

And then the second part to that is how do you deal with injustice at the judicial level?

- So, you know, it's really simple about the vote, because if you don't vote, you don't count.

And I mean, I know that you've heard that before, but that is so true, right?

If you don't vote, you don't count.

Most people do not know about judges.

They don't know anything about judges until they have to stand in front of one.

And in Pennsylvania in particular, these judges, from the local judges on up through our highest appellate court, we're in for ten year terms at a time.

So all the lives that we can touch in a ten year period of time, I mean, it's a lot.

And so we should want to know who's sitting on these courts, because the decisions from these courts impact our day to day more so than any decision coming out of Washington.

We need to know our judges.

We need to know who these people are, not just their professional experience but their life experience, where they're from, what are their beliefs, what are their values?

Because even though we have to rule according to the law, in the law there's a lot of gray area.

And in that gray area, that's when you find out who that judge really is.

So that we have to vote, we have to vote or we don't count, we don't matter.

As it relates to the injustice, or you said injustice...?

- Injustice at the judicial level.

- Right.

So to believe that injustice doesn't live in our court systems is to be naive.

Our whole world is full of injustice.

And so, you know, being a judge gives me the opportunity to see it from a different perspective, because it's a little less obvious.

Right?

Because people have to tap dance around it because of, you know, of the black robe.

But it's there.

It's there every single day.

We've had judges in our jurisdiction who have received racist letters.

Our court system, in particular, there was a survey taken and there was some scathing comments as related to the injustice in our system.

And those injustices are real.

So what do we have to do?

As judges and especially judges of color, even though we have judges that are not of color that are standing with us to make sure that we are recognizing, that everybody is recognizing and embracing the problems, addressing them through meaningful training, courageous conversations, and coming up with strategies to really change the environment, not just for us as judges, but for the people who work there and the people who come there to hear their cases, because if there is injustice at the top, it's going to trickle down to every single person that comes in that court.

And that's our responsibility as judges, to make sure that that doesn't happen.

- Thank you so much for that.

Alisha, I want to circle back to you because I didn't really hear too much about why business coaching, why do you feel it's important to help other people fulfill their dreams or to coach people up in regards to their vision for their life?

- I just think that there's a point where you get in life, if you're lucky enough, and thankfully the hard work has definitely paid off, that it is your duty to give back and to share and to bring others along with you.

I'm very clear about having a good circle.

I'm very clear about surrounding myself by authentic women, women who inspire me, not where I'm the smartest person in the room.

Just this conversation alone, I'm inspired by the women that I'm honored to sit next to.

And I just say that the desire, you can't do this alone.

You want to be able to give to communities.

You want to be able to give jobs and provide jobs and opportunities for others in your community.

And that coaching just helps me develop, to help others develop.

So, like I said, I don't ever want to be the smartest one in the bunch because then I'm in a cage.

- Yeah, that's good.

You know, my father gave me some great wisdom when he was alive.

He said you should always keep three people in your life, someone over you who can pour into you and correct you, someone on your level that can sharpen the information that you're receiving, and then someone you're giving to.

He called it the trinity of giving and receiving, and it's so important that we're continually pouring in to individuals.

Ros, you're still with us.

So let me ask you a question.

How do you feel that we change the narrative that is out there in regards to black women?

What do you think is key in being able to change that narrative?

- I think that we need to be intentional about raising the image... ..that people see a black woman traditionally on the nightly news, you see the finger pointing and, you know, the waving of the hand of the sassy black woman, but to see a black woman and South Asian woman of descent be the vice president of the United States, to see women in the secretary level cabinet of this administration, we need to talk to each other up.

- Yes.

- Not tear each other down.

That's when you create the real power for black women, when we're able to salute, celebrate and really highlight and love on each other, because in a real sense, we are all in this thing together, what impacts you, my sisters, who I'm sitting with.

It really impacts me.

And so we've got to create this new army, you know, that's rising up of black women who are proud and free.

And again... - You're preaching now.

Well, no, I agree with you and thank you because, you know, hearing your perspective, seeing the work that you're doing and continuing to do, giving back and then bringing information as it relates to diversity, equity, justice, impacting the real estate and, you know, the law profession and then from the judicial perspective.

So, Judge, I'm going to give you the last word.

Can you speak to some young woman that's out there that needs to be inspired?

And then can you share how folks can get involved with your campaign as well?

- Sure.

I have to piggyback off Rosalyn, and to our young sisters, you have to first and foremost love yourself because if you love yourself, others will love you.

But also don't be afraid to tell another sister that her hair looks good or that you like her pocketbook, that you like her shoes, right?

Learn early how to support your sisters, because when we support each other, we are unstoppable, but when we don't, it weakens us, it weakens the bond and weakens the link.

It weakens our power.

And so I would say love yourself, love your sister, support her so she can support you, so that we can bring the power and that black girl magic to every situation that we come to.

Right?

And our communities will be stronger for that.

Our communities will be more powerful and we won't be looked at as disjointed.

We won't be looked at as disorganized, because when we come, we're coming with strength and power and we're coming to uplift our entire community.

And so that's my advice for our sisters.

And you've got to respect yourself because if you don't respect yourself, nobody else will.

- Tell us about your campaign.

How can we support your campaign?

- Go to the website, JudgeDumas2021.com, to find out everything you need to know.

Thank you.

- Awesome.

Well, let me say I'd like to thank you for taking the time to join me.

I know you got busy schedules.

You're changing the world.

But for joining me for this very important, Courageous Conversation, thanks again.

You know, there's many people in the Lehigh Valley doing courageous work to engage and enhance the lives of others.

And we would like to put them in the spotlight.

If you would like us to highlight the courageous work of someone in your community, let us know by going to PBS39.org/courageous.

Make sure you stick around for Counter Culture with Grover Silcox.

His show is coming up right after this program.

I'm Phillip Davis, and on behalf of everyone here at PBS39, thanks for watching.

Make sure to tune in Tuesday nights at 6.30 PM.

All right.

Take care.