- Covid-19 has devastated the world.

Businesses are closed, many schools are closed.

Parents are home schooling their children while attempting to work at the same time.

Over 500,000 people in America have died from this deadly disease.

Many thought there was no hope in sight.

Recently, multiple vaccines have been developed and are being delivered to millions of people.

However, the community that has been hit the hardest is slow to want the vaccine and, in many cases, do not trust the drug companies who are trying to vaccinate them.

As of February 16th, 55 million vaccines have been delivered to Americans.

The African-American community has received only 5% of the vaccines that have been administered, due to mistrust and a lack of access to the vaccines.

Should Black folks trust this vaccine?

I'm Philip Davis.

Welcome to Courageous Conversations.

We are broadcasting from the PPL Public Media Center in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

Joining us to talk about the efficacy of the vaccines are Nishea Clark.

She is the president and founder of NBC Consulting, LLC, recently hired by St. Luke's to assist in bridging health care disparities, Covid-19 uptake, specifically helping to provide a different point of view for our Black and Brown individuals struggling with the vaccination decision.

Dr. Tecile Andolino, M.D., is the region's only pediatric nephrologist and cares for kids with diseases of the kidney.

Dr. Andolino is a graduate at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey.

She completed her internship and residency training at Indiana University School of Medicine, Riley Children's Hospital in Indianapolis, Indiana, where she stayed an additional year to serve as a chief resident doctor.

Dr. Andolino completed her fellowship in pediatric nephrology at the Eichen School of Medicine of Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York, currently serving at St. Luke's in pediatric nephrology.

I really want to jump right in, and I want to come to you, Dr. T, and then, to you, A.J..

So, Dr. T, do you trust the vaccine, and should African-Americans and people in the minority community be taking the vaccine?

- So, I will say that initially I was nervous myself, You wonder how safe it's going to be, what's going to happen, what do things look like?

But, as the data from the initial trial started to come out, it helped to field and alleviate some of those fears, myself included being a Black female, and then, having family members who were affected by Covid.

My mom is a nurse in New York City.

She was infected in the first wave.

She was hospitalized.

And that was probably one of the most terrifying times of my entire life, because we didn't have data at that time.

- What was that like for you, Dr. T.?

I mean, just to really help people understand the devastation.

- So, I would say that being a doctor in health care and understanding how the system works, you feel like you are able to better navigate this sometimes a little bit more than someone else who may not have any experience within the health care system.

And, even for me, that was challenging, to be able to get information about how my mom was doing, to be able to check in, to be, like, at one point, I wanted to actually...

I said to my husband, if it was possible for me to just go and take care of my mom myself, I would have.

I would gown up, I would use my own PPE and take care of my mom until she was able to get home.

And, unbeknownst to my mom, she exposed my brother and my sister, and my father.

- Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And our community has been hit so hard.

The minority African-American community, the statistics all show that we're suffering greatly, many a times because of our vocation, sometimes because of economics, right, and the places that we live.

So, very interesting.

And we're praying, of course, for your mother now.

Nishea, what about yourself as a consultant?

Do you think that we should be taking the vaccine?

And do you trust it at this point?

- So, for me, the term "trust" is actually a double-edged sword.

I wouldn't necessarily say that I 100% trust all aspects of the vaccine, per se.

But what I do trust is what the motivations were for developing it.

The science and the scientists behind it, including an African-American scientist who's one of the lead researchers on the vaccine.

And I also, when I look at it, I think about what are the risks versus the benefits?

And for me right now, the benefits far outweigh the risks.

And I have also taken the vaccine, and I raised my hand quite quickly to do so because I want to get back to living.

And the only way to do that, I strongly believe, is for the majority of us to get vaccinated.

- And how do we know, Nishea, and I'll start with you here, how do we know that this is not another experiment like Tuskegee, or many of the other historical abuses that have happened to African-Americans in the medical community?

- I get that question a lot, and I describe it this way.

During Tuskegee, during many of the other issues in our history, when the medical community, well, quite frankly, white America has abused Black and Brown America.

It was a story of two boats.

There was the boat that white America existed on, the boat that we were on.

They were experimenting on us.

None of them were affected.

They weren't involved.

They were not injured by the situation.

They were looking for answers to questions that were going to affect them.

But they used our bodies to get those answers.

In this case, we're on the same boat.

There is no separate vaccine for us versus them.

There is no difference in what we get versus what they get.

- Sure.

- And, quite frankly, it is not really about humanitarianism.

It is selfishness and capitalism.

And those two things I trust.

Because in this case, if we go down, the boat sinks.

We are, in many cases, the front line workers.

We are the individuals that are checking out their groceries, taking care of white America's children, wiping their brow in the hospital.

And so, having us vaccinated is actually critical to the entire ship staying afloat.

And so, that's what I trust.

And that's why, in this case, I'm not too worried about whether it's benevolent or not.

I actually feel better that it's not.

- Yeah, that's actually a very good point.

So, you know, one of the articles I was reading says that African-Americans do actually trust their local doctors, right?

But the further it goes out from our localities, our trust many a times goes down.

Dr. T, what's happening now is I just heard about the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, and that it has some significant efficacy as it is going through its testing process, and it's very close to being released.

What are your thoughts about another vaccine, and how do you think that that will impact our America, as it relates to vaccinations, and really getting control of Covid?

- So, distribution right now has been one of the major issues with regards to getting vaccines out to the community, out to the population at large.

You see that the president himself has talked about how many doses they hope to have out to dole out to the states, but then, every individual state themselves have to kind of figure out how they're parceling this out.

And that rollout has been different.

So, even if you were to compare our state here in Pennsylvania to New York or New Jersey, they're at different tiers in comparison to us, and there are some supply issues.

So, the more vaccines that are on the shelves that can be administered with appropriate efficacy and data that shows that they are doing the same or better than what we have with Pfizer and Moderna, that is all I care about.

We want there to be enough on the market to be able to have enough available to administer to the people who want it, so that everybody can get it.

- So, let me get to the question that a lot of our folks are asking in the community.

We already know that there's not two separate vaccines.

Thank you, Nishea, for informing us on that.

But Dr. T, let me ask you, will it cause infertility?

If you have heart disease, will it accelerate your heart disease?

Because for us, many a times, because we weren't as involved in the trials, many a times, we think that we don't know the full effect and extent of what a vaccine like this can do.

Can you kind of give us some clarity on that, as well?

It's not going to cause me to grow a third eye in my forehead or something like that?

- So, I have had my vaccine, and you can see here on the screen, I do not have a third eye.

I don't have any extra limbs or appendages.

So, that's one.

When we talk about infertility, when we talk about folks who have severe comorbidities or additional medical conditions, and you look at the efficacy of the vaccines, for example, the folks who have, let's just take like Moderna, for example, the folks that had severe disease, or even the communities of color who were vaccinated in the trials, their efficacy was above what we were seeing, like, for the general group of 94%.

It was 97.5% for communities, for people of color.

And there were 100% efficacy with regards to protection from Covid-19 and folks who had severe disease.

So, if we're talking about the folks who have heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, that kind of stuff.

When we talk about it separately with regards to infertility, this vaccine is based on MRNA.

Our body has MRNA.

We use that to code and read information and proteins in our system.

And MRNA is highly unstable.

It gets read, and then, it disappears.

This stuff doesn't attach to our DNA.

It literally goes off into the ether after it gets spread by our cells.

And so, the same thing is true for this vaccine.

It's not sticking around to then attach to your DNA and be a microchip for you to begin scan for this new movie that's coming out, you know, in a couple of years.

It has... Because, you know, when we watch sci fi things and we tend to think that that's going to happen, you know, that that dystopian universe is possible.

And with the type of vaccine that we have, that is not the case.

And we haven't actually seen any infertility.

Actually, we've had folks who have gotten pregnant after being in the vaccine trial.

So, I would say that, as a woman of childbearing age and four kids at home, I'm not concerned that this has affected my chances of having a fifth kid.

I'm not planning on having a fifth kid.

But in case my husband is watching.

- OK!

Well, thank you, Dr. T. Nishea, and it may sound redundant, but I think our folks just need to hear this over and over again.

The FDA approved this vaccine really quickly, though.

Do you think that is dangerous?

And, Nishea, as a consultant who works with medical and pharmaceutical companies all the time, do you think we're safe here?

And can you reassure people out there from your perspective, your professional perspective, on the level of safety?

- I do.

I do think that it's safe, and I am not concerned on that level for a couple of different reasons.

Like you mentioned, I have worked for pharmaceutical companies for over 20 years now, including consulting with Pfizer.

And I can tell you that there are plenty of lawyers in the building, and they certainly do not want to jeopardize their bottom line and put themselves and the company... - For economics, yeah.

- Right, one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world at risk.

One lawsuit with someone suddenly being able to prove that they have become infertile, or that there's some other major issue, those are the things that can take down a company, so there's a lot of precautions that go into place.

In terms of the FDA, I can tell you, having worked on a lot of launch products, much of that time is honestly the paperwork.

It is the waiting for the meeting where you're able to present your findings.

And so, that often can take two, five, six, eight months just to wait, even if you have all of your data situated.

And then, it's just getting all the paperwork done.

And frankly, during clinical trials, a very large portion of the time is spent actually getting people into the trial.

Sometimes it takes years to get the numbers of individuals required into a clinical trial just to do the work.

In this case, they were able to enroll patients very quickly because of how dire the situation was.

And quite frankly, because so many people raised their hand to say, yes, I'm willing to participate in a clinical trial in the hopes of ending this pandemic.

So, I don't worry about the speed.

And also, lastly, money talks and money makes things happen.

In a typical clinical trial, there might be one or two scientists working on something in a lab independently for years.

In this case, resources were thrown at this endeavor such that it was able to move faster.

The work was being able to move faster.

And, I have to once again, re-emphasize that one of the lead scientists was a Black woman named Dr. Corbett, - That's right.

- Let's speak her name and, in our communities, recall and remember that a Black female doctor, Dr. Corbett, was one of the lead scientists here.

- That's wonderful.

You know, I don't agree with everything that the last and past administration did.

Matter of fact, there's a whole lot that I disagree with.

But there was Operation Warp Speed that helped to accelerate this process.

So, we give credit where credit is due to all of my viewers.

You know, one of the challenges is, you know, questions that can affect our community is, hey, if you've already had, Dr. T., if you've already had Covid-19, do you really need to take the vaccine?

Is it still necessary?

Can you actually get reinfected?

- Yes, yes, and yes.

We should absolutely still consider getting the vaccine.

We don't know how long your antibodies, your natural immunity from the infection lasts for.

And so, with testing, there is some evidence to suggest that we may have some short-term immunity.

But, in terms of long-term longevity, years of immunity, that's not necessarily what we're seeing yet.

We don't have that data to be able to support that.

It's not like you get the chicken pox, and maybe you'll get shingles, but for the most part, you can be around anybody with chicken pox and be OK. And so, there is a risk for infection.

And so, what I have been recommending to my patients is that, if you have gotten Covid and you're maybe in that first 90 days, as data suggests, you could potentially wait it out, if you want to allow other folks to get in line, if it's your loved one or somebody else ahead of you.

But really, I wouldn't squander that opportunity to get the vaccine if the opportunity presents itself, even if you were within that 90 days of your initial infection.

Protection is protection.

- And that's so smart.

I mean, so often, because we don't have the information, we don't really participate at the level.

And then, we put ourselves in jeopardy again, thinking, well, you know, I got it.

And I deal with a lot of millennials at my church, and I'm telling you, they don't see Covid as an issue.

They don't wear a mask.

They don't social distance.

They want to hug you, shake your hand.

I'm like, hey, wait a minute.

You know, I'm an old man.

I'm 55-plus, you know, so thank you for that, just so folks can understand that.

So, Nishea, you're a consultant, right?

Why did St. Luke's hire you to work on this program, and why did St. Luke's reach out to you?

Now, let me just kind of give credit where credit is due, in working with yourself and some folks over at St. Luke's, our church, Greater Shiloh Church, located in Easton, has become a vaccination station.

So, if any of our viewers are out there and, you know, you fit into the categories of those that need to be vaccinated, you can go right to our website, www.GreaterShilohChurchPA.com, and you can register.

St. Luke's has set aside up to 500 vaccines for our community right there on the south side of Easton.

And so, you know, we are happy to be able to partner with St. Luke's, and Nishea, you've been just a great advocate in helping us.

So, back to the question, why did... That wasn't like a shameless plug, but we really want to get folks vaccinated.

So, can you talk about your own experience and why St. Luke's reached out to you to bring you into this market?

- Well, I was introduced to St. Luke's via another position that works there and, inside St. Luke's, there is a kind of an advocacy group of Black health care providers, physicians, nurses, lab techs, etc.

And so, they had started wanting to do some initiatives.

And St. Luke's said, "Well, who have you been talking to?

"How can we help?"

We think that it's important not just for you, Black and Brown physicians, to lead this charge, but for us and senior leadership to demonstrate to our hospital community and to our greater community how important, quite frankly, how urgent it is for us to get vaccinated, for our front line workers and, in this case, are predominantly Black and Brown frontline workers, to be vaccinated, for our unique fears and concerns to be addressed.

Because it's true, we do have very different needs.

We have historical pain that resides within us, that creates different kinds of fears than the general population.

And those have to be addressed.

They have to be acknowledged and they have to be processed in order for us to feel comfortable to move forward.

And it's my hope and my goal to help address these concerns and fears, and to get more Black and Brown people vaccinated, because it's a matter of social justice.

We deserve it.

We need it.

We should get it.

- That's amazing.

You know, I read a recent report that talked about some of the greatest gaps as it relates to vaccines versus population.

Some of the greatest gaps are seen in Delaware, 6% of vaccines received versus 24% of infections within our community.

In Louisiana, 13% of vaccines received versus 34%.

In Maine, 1% versus 6%.

In Mississippi, 17% versus 38%.

And right here in Pennsylvania, 3% of vaccines to minorities versus 14% that have been infected.

And so, we understand that this is a very serious problem.

Is there an issue of access to the vaccines for the African-American and minority communities?

Because it may not just be that folks, you know, don't want the vaccine, it's that they can't get the vaccine, and it's not in their community.

Nishea, let me come to you, since I know you're working directly with St. Luke's.

- Access is a...

Enormous issue, especially in our community, there's so many different gaps, there are, quite frankly, health care deserts where people live in communities where just getting to a hospital or getting to a medical center requires two busses and a taxi, etc.

And it's harder to get there.

Where in a world where there's been so much reliance on telehealth and telemedicine, but there's still a digital divide in our community.

So, not everyone has access to a high-speed Internet connection and a laptop computer where they can sit down and have a conversation like we're having right now safely what their physician, or to talk about their needs.

There's education gaps in terms of people's understanding, the belief that is quite pervasive, that there are two different vaccines, one for us and one for them.

So, all of those really compound the issues with access.

And if we can't have the conversation with our HCPs, if we can't, quite frankly, even get online, because so many of these vaccines, you have to go online, register, be computer literate, quite frankly, very computer savvy in order to even get online to register for your vaccine.

So, the challenges are enormous, but they're not insurmountable.

So, it just requires time and additional effort, and really, the desire to assist our communities to make sure that they get vaccinated.

-Well, that's amazing.

And let me give a second shout out to St. Luke's.

This morning, they arranged transportation.

We have a senior citizens home as part of our congregation, and they arrange transportation from our building to the site, got the shots, and then, they're taking the folks back.

But I think it's going to take that kind of intentional mobilization and focus to really be able to mitigate some of some of the problems that are currently existing and reach that population that's not being vaccinated.

So, to you, Dr. T, and we're running a little bit out of time, why do you think it's important, if you could just kind of give me your summation?

Why do you think it's important for folks in our community to receive the vaccine?

- Sometimes we have to actually think about ourselves and the things that we love, and the things we hold dear.

So, sometimes we put ourselves last on the list.

But it's our it's our mammas, it's our pops, it's our grandmas, our aunties, our uncles.

It's the fact that we can actually have our kids go to school so that we're not struggling to have to school them at home.

It's all the things that we were previously used to that got ripped away from us during this pandemic and this infection.

And for all the souls that we have lost so far, it is for all of those reasons that we need to be thinking about protecting ourselves and being able to take a step forward towards our futures and rebuilding.

- Wow, thank you for that.

And I'm going to come to you, Nishea, as well.

You know, one of the reasons that we started Courageous Conversations, it all started in this space after the George Floyd murder that, you know, was televised all over the world, essentially.

And it speaks to issues of systemic racism, structural racism, white supremacy, and things of that nature.

And many a times, our community is suffering because of the historic oppression that has happened.

Nishea, as an African-American president of a company who is working in a space that is really trying to help heal our community, you give us your parting thoughts, your thoughts on why you believe that it's critically important for our community.

- Because we deserve it.

- Yeah.

- Because we have built this country, we sustain this country, and we are the future of this country.

However, between the systemic racism and injustice, that is still is pervasive within this country and, quite frankly, our own fears.

There are times when we prevent ourselves from having that which we deserve.

So, in this case, I would just... You know, plead with your viewership to understand that this is what you deserve.

When you see white America fighting each other to get in line to get something, when they are willing to take their place away from you, do not let that happen.

This is one of those rare opportunities where we can move up in line because we are the building blocks of this country.

So, as Dr. Andolino said, do it in honor of our families, do it in honor of our friends and families that are no longer here because of this horrific pandemic.

- Wow, thank you.

- And protect yourself.

- Well, thank you both.

Dr. T., Nishea, thank you both for joining us on this Courageous Conversation.

You know, there are many people in the Lehigh Valley doing courageous work to engage and enhance the lives of others.

And we would like to put them in the spotlight.

If you would like us to highlight the courageous work of someone in your community, let us know by going to PBS39.org/Courageous.

Make sure you stick around for Counter Culture with one of my favorite people, Grover Silcox.

His show is coming up right after this program.

I'm Phillip Davis, on behalf of everyone here at PBS 39, thanks for watching.