Covid-19 has hit the minority community unusually hard.

According to statistics, African-Americans and Hispanics are two to four times more likely to go to the hospital and die from Covid-19.

Along with the direct health effects, there is the mental distress that impacts communities of color at an alarming rate.

Today on Courageous Conversations, we will discuss the emotional impact and some solutions on how to deal with the effects of Covid-19.

Joining me today on the show are Michele Townsend, LCSW.

She's the founder of Empowered Living LLC, located in East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania.

She's also a doctoral candidate.

Ca Misha V Stewart.

She has a master's in education.

She's also an LCSW, and she's a mental-health professional for the Newark school system.

Pastor Sai'kia Moore, MS, ABD.

She's a doctoral candidate at Eastern University, and she practices family-based services in Philadelphia.

Listen, don't go anywhere.

We'll be right back with Courageous Conversations.

So, Sai'kia, better known as Kiki to me, welcome to the show.

- Thank you.

- We have a long history.

We were doctoral students together at Eastern University, and I was always impressed with your knowledge of the field that you work in.

You work with families.

- Yes.

- So, as a clinician, what have you experienced working with families of color, coming through Covid?

- There's been a downdrop of experiences.

You have those families, the black and brown communities, you have those families who, in the beginning of Covid, it was just, you know, I don't really believe it, it's happening.

You know?

So they weren't really kind of complying to or adhering to what was necessary to stay safe.

And then you hear about all of the passings.

So then that creates a pensive state for these families.

And then, on top of that, it's what do I do?

Do I go to work?

Is it safe for me to leave the house when I have children?

And then your job is on the line.

So I've had a lot of families talk about, y'know, employment loss, and I can't stay safe because my job is on the line, and if I don't have a job, I don't have insurance.

So it's like that cycle of you have to do one to obtain the other, and then if you don't you get sick and then maybe you're the next person on the news.

What I've experienced, counselling a lot of the families, is that it puts them in a very pensive state where they just don't know what to do, which created a heightening for our field.

- Mm.

Yeah.

I would imagine that, as a pastor, it was very difficult.

You're a pastor, as well, so you understand that now we're dealing with not only the mental and emotional but the spiritual impact.

- Absolutely.

- We have some other guests.

We happen to have Michele Townsend, who is just an amazing therapist.

Michele, you work a lot with families in your counseling, doing marriage and family therapy.

What has been your experience in regards to what families in our community have been going through, through Covid?

- Similar to what Kiki said, there has been an increase in anxiety when I diagnose individuals.

Before, it used to be more of a balance of depression and anxiety, but anxiety definitely has been on the rise.

There is a constant fear of what will be next and then also a constant fear of, is this my new normal and am I able to handle it?

And there's also been an increase on thoughts of death, not necessarily of themselves but of loved ones and how do they handle that, how do they remain safe, how do they connect with individuals that have the Covid diagnosis?

And how do they maintain their own sense of who they are pre-Covid, right?

So it's things like we have now a divider similar to BC and AD, we have pre-Covid and now we have in Covid.

And the line that divides the two is so thick in terms of how they responded to common events that they now need assistance, which is why they come to therapy, for ways of developing new coping strategies for some of the challenges that they're facing.

- Wow.

Well, that's amazing, I think.

You talk about that pre-Covid and then in Covid.

But then there will be the reality of post-Covid, if there ever be such a thing, right?

And so the new normal becomes consistent and we continue to have to adapt to this new reality.

Now, Ca Misha, you work in the school district, and I want to ask you kind of a dual question.

Do you believe that the system and the long legacy of racism has an impact on how our community is affected?

And how is it affecting the children on the day-to-day in regards to their education?

- Absolutely.

You know, what we have recognized in the season of this pandemic is just a reopening of the wound of systemic racism.

Right?

And we think about racism in the intersectionality of our brown and black children, and just from a granular lens, we're seeing how it's really creating these disparities in their academic spaces, they're creating these disparities in their communities on limited resources.

And so what we find with our young people is that their coping skills, even with a lot of protective factors, safe spaces in schools, loving families, sometimes their resilience is not enough to buffer what they've experienced in this particular season.

You know, just as Michele and Pastor Kiki mentioned, anxiety is at an all-time high, depression is at an all-time high.

Introduction or just an expanse of substance use is also at an all-time high.

Children are really just experimenting with a lot of things because they're just overwhelmed and they don't have the coping skills, they don't have the emotional language to communicate what their needs are, and they're just trying to self-medicate just to return to some level of functionality.

- Mm.

Wow.

And I think that you speak to some very real issues.

We were just talking to someone from the state of Pennsylvania, and he stated that he was listening to someone from the Department of Education who said 84% of children are failing and not doing well in school.

And based on this whole idea of not being sure whether we're going to school, is Covid going to be there, having to wear the mask all day, there's all of these variables that are playing into this new reality that I think our children are having to deal with.

Now, let me ask another question on the side of being therapists, because you still have to show up in your brown skin.

Right?

And just a couple of weeks ago, I interviewed Dr Yolanda Ragland, who wrote a couple of books on navigating the triple pandemic.

So there was the pandemic that was the pandemic, but they were medical professionals, and they were still having to deal with racism in the hospitals and with their patients and from their institution.

So as a brown therapist, as a black female therapist, how are you faring, having to navigate through all of the challenges that are presented to you?

- There's definitely a GPS system.

I'll say it that way.

Just being a female of color prior to the pandemic, there's always that... You're not necessarily under the umbrella, but it's right behind you or it's right beside you or it's right in front of you and you have to walk through it and/or past it.

So I think now, with the pandemic coming on, like the other guests were saying, the beginning and now we're in it, and who knows if we'll make it to post, it's been very difficult, I want to say, because just being in the field of being a clinician, you're met with a variety or a diverse group of patients.

You don't necessarily always get brown or black or African-American, but you get other minorities, Hispanic, Asian.

It's very diverse.

And you're not always accepted.

So that's the struggle.

You're not accepted.

You're coming in as this helpmeet.

I don't know about other clinicians, but I like to present myself as someone who is just human.

I know what I know, but let's just talk about it.

That approach.

So I'm not coming as this machine or this, you know, person who knows everything, like I have a book of answers - Right, right.

- I'm coming in because I know that your situation might not be the same as another patient of mine.

But not being accepted because of the color of my skin or your assumption of what I might be.

Yeah.

It's amazing because we've talked to medical doctors.

We had a medical doctor on the show and he said, "Listen, I went in to a guy who was having a heart attack," or having a cardiac... And he was like, "I don't wanna deal with you."

- Like, "Go get me a doctor."

- Exactly.

The guy's like, "I am the doctor."

Right?

So racism can be so baked into someone's DNA and they don't even realize it until a moment comes up.

It's almost like, "I would rather suffer physical harm "and be sick than allow a black or brown doctor "to work on me."

So I get that and I can imagine the anxiety that comes along with that sometimes so even we, in our skin, have to navigate through those doors and I think having these Courageous Conversations maybe gives our non-African American, non-minority brothers and sisters an opportunity to get a peek into our reality.

That's why I call it Courageous Conversations cos you gotta be courageous to really bear your heart and bear your soul to be able to say, "This is an issue that I have."

It doesn't make you a bad person, it just gives you a picture to be able to see through my lens.

- Exactly.

- Now, now, Michele, you work with families, specifically, and individuals, but can you share a little bit about how marriages have been affected, how, you know, husband and wives have been affected during this time of Covid, the isolation and all the other things that go along with it?

Definitely.

May I answer the question that you posed earlier?

Yeah, sure.

We just talking.

We in the living room, so whatever you wanna say is fine.

Because when you said that, it hit me really to a point because we're in a age where you can Google, you can search up.

Privacy is almost zero.

And when I started my practice I didn't have a picture up and the internet wasn't as widely used as much as it is now to search out but individuals can type in your name, see your profile, see all the information about you, which is public and I'm OK, what they see is what they get.

But what I'm seeing now in terms of racism, I'm finding that individuals that I treat...

Some individuals that I treat that are Caucasian, they tend to go into this world when they start to talk and there's a moment when I know they forget who they're talking to and what the person looks like that they're talking to.

They'll use terms of "those people" and then they'll be full in conversation and then halt because they're now like, "Oh..." Yeah, they catch themselves.

"She's..." - Cos I'm like, "Bring it."

- Right, right.

You know, sometimes I have to remember that I'm a therapist in that situation but there are therapists that struggle with individuals who have freedom of tongue when they are talking in the disguise of therapy and they let go of their hate and their racism and all things but we are in an interesting situation that we have to maintain order within ourselves.

We are their therapist, we're there to help them through this challenge.

It is a challenge that they're experiencing but we are also human and we feel that pain when you're talking about individuals that we share the same skin color with, same culture, same heritage with.

So I just wanted to add that piece on there that there are individuals that do come to therapy and just go for it and just let loose on how they feel about people of color.

So I just wanted to say that part.

Thank you, thank you for your honesty and that transparency is important because you're giving, again, for those who may never have a conversation with someone who looks like you or me, to be able to give a picture into the lived experience, I think is so important.

But to the other question, how have marriages and relationships been affected during Covid-19?

I'm seeing more of a strain on marriages.

And, interestingly enough, I was sharing before we started, in conversation, that pre-Covid I had more referrals for marital assistance and help.

Post-Covid, those referrals have gone down and the referrals that are coming in, they are struggling with issues of infidelity.

I'm seeing a great rise in that.

And that goes to the fear factor in what several of my clients have in common is that they don't know what tomorrow holds, "So let me live out my bucket list."

Wow.

Wow.

And they are doing all types of destructive behaviors to their family because they are not sure how long they're gonna live.

So the commitment level has decreased and I think they - call it YOLO.

- You only live once.

You know, living your best life, I don't know what it stands for.

- You only live once!

- Yeah, you only live once.

- You're close, you were close.

- Yeah.

And they're really exercising that without caution.

Yeah, wow.

And without realizing the consequences it's having on their family unit.

Well, that's very heavy, when you think about that and , you know, I'm sure many families have had to deal with that, that uncertainty about tomorrow, like, "Wait a minute, I gotta live out whatever it is "I need to live out now."

Wow, that's amazing.

When you are working with the children at the school are you seeing commonalities or patterns that you think may be connected to Covid-19?

What are you experiencing as you're dealing with the children?

So, I definitely see that, just as Michele mentioned, and it's kind of to share off of what they mentioned before is, just as a clinician I have to constantly process the work that I'm doing with my young people and also with my families, right?

So the work that I do with my young people is not just in isolation with them.

I find that I'm providing these kind of supportive sessions with my teachers, I'm having a lot more family counseling sessions that the families themselves are being impacted and just as an African American clinician with two black kids that I'm raising at home, that my anxiety level has heightened, right?

We're in just this perfect storm of a pandemic between Covid, between mental health and also just this civil unrest that is going on and substance abuse as well, is that we find that we can easily be triggered and we just have to kind of gauge ourselves.

And so what I'm finding with my students and their families is that these issues are truly multilayered.

I find even more, interestingly enough, we have a population of about... We have about 1,700 students in our campus and of that 1,700 students about 36-40% are of Latin background and of that percentage we have about a majority of them that are monolingual, so they're only Spanish speaking.

We may have some that have dialects.

And the impact of the pandemic for students who are newly residents within the country, students that may be undocumented, has caused so much abuse.

You have sex trafficking that's going on, students that have been torn from their homes, are not able to return, they're separated from families.

We definitely know that depression, as I think we all have mentioned, is definitely more rampant.

Suicidal ideations and attempts have gone up about 20, 30%.

You're seeing about 50% more in children, and this is females, and this is between the ages of 12 and 17, so we're seeing a lot more students that are openly expressing their suicidality, this hopelessness, depression.

And then often times we find that, you know, depression we think about, you know, we understand as clinicians as this kind of like persistent sadness most of the time or all of the time, but as a mood disorder, one of the components is irritability and so our students are oftentimes on edge and so when you're coupling that irritability with anxiety, this fear of the unknown, this instability, this economic instability, you know, concern for the health of your family, your grief and loss, our students are constantly are on raw, right?

They're one edge at all times.

And it's difficult because you're just kind of trying to be as proactive as possible but in a community where students are constantly exposed to trauma, they're dealing with post secondary trauma, you know, you're really trying to address a lot of these layered issues as well, like I mentioned before, the intersectionality of things that happen with children of color, children of color in urban areas.

So we find that we are really trying to expand the supports that we typically give.

It's not just so much individual work, we're trying to really do some group work with those students that are appropriate and also doing some after-hours work with our family, really doing some collaborative efforts with our community partners as well.

That's amazing, when you think about what the children are living through right now, you know, we had our challenges in the '80s and in the '90s but this is something that we've never seen before.

It's been over 100 years, I guess they would say, since a generation had to live through this type of pandemic and there have been significant losses.

So, you serve as a pastor as well, you know, not only a clinician but a pastor, so can you talk a little bit about grief and what has it been like as a spiritual leader as well to help families navigate through the grief of loss and to have to deal with that?

Well both have been definitely a challenge, I want to say.

But just, like, speaking on the spiritual side, you find that...

So, when the pandemic hit, it was more so, you know, what am I going to do?

Am I going to listen?

Do I believe that this is real, or is this just made up?

Sure.

And then once the death tolls started to heighten, you know, it hit home for a lot of people.

Yeah.

And it happened in our community like crazy.

It did.

- In churches too.

- It did.

Because in that faith thing that says it's not going to happen yet.

Exactly.

So, for me personally, I lost about 15 people.

- Oh, my gosh, really?

- To Covid.

Yeah, yeah.

So, those individuals who, like you just said, you know, it's not going to touch me, God got me, I'm going to walk by faith and not by sight.

You know, no weapon formed against me shall prosper We can do it all, right?

Know all the songs.

Those individuals, I find that they would come into the church, leaning more on God, you know, wanting to, you know, increase their faith.

But what my experience has been in doing that is, yes, we do lean on God, but God created these other things on purpose.

He created these doctors, he created... You know, he had a person design a mask one day long ago.

Knowing what was coming down the path, right?

Absolutely.

So it's been a challenge in that it is difficult for them to let go and embrace the other side of it.

So, being someone that's smack in the middle of it, you know, a pastor and a clinician, and I'm trying to navigate both worlds.

- Right?

- Yeah It's been different in dealing with their grief because, one, the Christians, they don't want to let go of their faith, but that's not what we're saying.

The clinician is not saying let go of your faith.

What we are saying is, be wise while you continue to walk in your faith.

Absolutely.

So that's is what it's been for me.

You know, we had a terminology that I used quite often with our congregation.

I said we are going to have faith but we are going to use wisdom.

And I think that is where a lot of people got lost, they were all faith but not utilizing the wisdom that God gives us to be able to navigate very difficult spaces.

And it was hard as a pastor.

You know, we had people who... You know, no-one who was a member of our congregation died, but we had family members of members who passed away from Covid, and having to not be in the hospital room when your mother or father or sister or brother is passing away, and then to know that the last face they were going to see would be that of a nurse, it has long-lasting effects on a person's psyche and their emotionality.

Let me come to you, Michele.

How did you counsel or help people navigate through those moments of grief?

I have in my practice, I see a few nurses, and walking them through that, through the process, was very traumatic because we look at... We all, as clinicians, have trauma as well, so you have the individual that is experiencing the trauma and then we can also have secondary trauma from that trauma.

And you're walking them through the journey and hearing the nurses saying that they've become experts at using FaceTime or other types of social media so that the individual can have a last look at their family members.

I also had nurses that worked in medical facilities out here at the beginning of the pandemic when they were not issuing enough protective layers, or garments for them.

And a couple of them left their jobs because they said they also, they have a job to keep, but they also have a family to maintain.

And then counseling them through that piece of, do I keep my job and help those that are in need or do I take care of my family?

And so, many people...

It seems like an easy decision, but when you are in a helping world and this is your life, it can be a challenging one.

Of course family is first, but you also remember that you are a light in whatever institute you are in and you don't want... You give them something more than someone without Christ can give them.

And they have that.

And they said, so, it is like, where do I go?

But they chose the path that they did.

Some stayed and some left.

But they deal with that issue of how do I handle this, seeing someone pass away, when knowing that there could have been preventive measures taken that they may not have had to have gone this way, go this way?

Thank you.

Ca Misha, I assume you have had some students who have lost family members.

Can you talk a little bit about how you have helped - or teachers - how you have helped them to navigate through the moments of grief that they've had to deal with?

You know, we've lost several members of our district, we have had los within our own school, between adults and also children.

And the biggest part is giving them a safe space to just feel.

Sometimes it is difficult and we want to just put a Band-Aid on it, to say it is going to be OK, those comforting phrases that become the norm.

But it is definitely acknowledging that this is a traumatic experience.

Any time you have a loss, it is a traumatic experience, whether a person has been ill for several years or whether it was unexpected.

But definitely validating our young people, giving them space and reminding the adults in the building that they may need space and what that grief will look like, always being accessible and available, that's one thing that we definitely pride ourselves in.

We have an amazing school leader that is very in tune to meeting the social and emotional needs of our young people and creating a variety of spaces in our building.

We are doing groups and those groups are catering to our English language learners, those groups are also being cognizant of our students from different ethnic backgrounds, because how people discuss and how they identify with and how they process through grief may look very different depending on what your cultural background is.

It's about spiritualizing things.

So some of our students that are comfortable, you know, spend a lot of time in their particular bibles or their particular religious books, you know, we try to find some correlations of those members in those books that have experienced that.

How Samuel's mother was dealing with post-partum or dealing with infertility and the depression that comes with that.

You get Judas dealing with the depression that he had of betraying Jesus and the suicidality that he dealt with.

And the plethora of other members and various religious experiences that have dealt with that.

So we want to make sure that we find things that are relevant for them, providing them a safe space, and sometimes that does not operate between 8am and 3pm in our school day.

Absolutely.

I've been available for parents that had had to make crisis calls at 11 o'clock at night, and if I'm not available or a team isn't available, our community contacts.

It's always someone that's available and accessible because mental health does not have a schedule.

I can't be depressed at 12 and then my anxiety kicks in at two.

Your medication may be scheduled that way, but how I am, you know, manifesting these symptoms aren't the same.

Well, thank you.

That is so true.

This is a 24-hour day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.

People have needs and they need support.

Kiki, in 60 seconds, just if you could encourage a family who may have been walking through something.

As we come to a close, you have the last word of the day.

I would say...

I would say that... ..allow yourself to hear whatever it is that you need to hear, so that you can be directed in the way you should go.

I would say, be open and be generous and continue to be the light, like it was just said.

Just continue to be a light for someone else and then that will be returned to you.

That's good.

Thank you, thank you for that.

So many people have had to struggle through this pandemic and it has had an impact that many of us will not forget.

The loss of family members, the loss of friends.

The loss of our old normal, right?

We are all readjusting and our faith becomes so important to us in times like this.

Whatever your particular belief is, you have to know that there is a power that is greater than you that sustains you through many of the things that you had to walk through.

So I would like to thank all of my guests today who took the time out of their super-busy schedules to come in and to share with us today.

Thank you for all of your expertise, all of your feedback.

And so on behalf of everything here at PBS39, I'm Pastor Phillip Davis and I'd like to thank all of you for taking the time to join us today.

And I say this week in and week out - keep being courageous, keep having courageous conversations.

All right, we'll see you next week.