totaled 17.5 million undergraduate students nationwide in 2020.

College enrollment rates have declined by an average of 1.67% per year since 2010.

19.5% of the student population is Hispanic or Latino, and that is an increase of 441% since 1976.

Black or African-American students have increased among the student population by 39.6% since 1976 as a percentage of the entire student population.

The white or Caucasian demographic has decreased by 34.5% since 1976.

However, since 2010, black or African-American students have decreased among the student population by 10.7%.

33% of white Americans over the age of 25 hold a bachelor's degree, compared to 19% of black African Americans and 16% of Hispanic Americans.

The landscape of education in America is very diverse.

However, there are many challenges that minority students are up against in predominantly white institutions and institutions of higher learning.

Black and African-American college graduates owe an average of $25,000 more in student loan debt than white college graduates.

Four years after graduation, 48% of black students owe an average of 12.5% more than they borrowed.

From student loan debt to recruitment and retention, minority students are struggling.

Hi, my name is Pastor Phillip Davis, the host of Courageous Conversations.

Welcome to the show!

Joining me today on the show are Baron Vanderburg.

He's the assistant director of admissions and a multicultural recruiter for Kutztown University.

Ashley Sardik.

She's a director of Residence Life and Community Standards at Cedar Crest College.

We'll be right back.

Don't go anywhere.

- Well, Ashley and Baron, welcome to the show.

- Thank you.

- I'm sure like this is school season, so you all got a lot going on, but you know, taking the time to come to the living room is kind of cool.

So thank you all for hanging out with us today.

Baron, I want to start with you, right?

You're a recruiter for Kutztown.

And you have the opportunity to go all throughout the region.

And I see you kind of on Facebook and some of the travel that you're making.

What are you seeing when it comes to the recruitment of minority students?

What are some of the things that you're observing?

- One of the greater things that I see in the recruitment of minoritized students is anxiety around a lot of different areas.

First, coming from a standpoint of, can I handle college work because of the overemphasis that has that has been placed on grit in our community?

I think that has had a psychological element to students coming into the higher education space.

If I had to work so hard through my earlier years, I can only imagine what I'm going to deal with when I get to college.

The other thing is a financial understanding of how the process of funding college works.

- Sure.

- When you tell students the cost of college, it comes as a shock a little bit.

And then when you explain that that's, you know, there's a system here in how we work and how we break it down for them, it's a little bit harder to communicate in some of our more diverse communities.

- Well, yeah, I think when you think about our communities, many times they would be first-generation students.

So even the parents may not have the necessary understanding of the landscape of financial aid and all the things that go along with that.

And as you see, when we graduate, we graduate with more student debt because the median income of our communities, right, and the net worth of our communities is significantly lower.

So when we go to school, we've got to borrow money to be able to get through school, which then hampers us on the backside.

I read a statistic the other day that said there's a significant amount of African-American students who graduate college have, you know, the good jobs but they put off buying a house, getting married, you know, starting a family simply because of student loan debt - can't afford it, right?

You know, those payments are no joke.

And it's amazing.

Fannie Mae and all those folks, they'll find you wherever you are, right?

- Immediately!

You graduate, they're like, "Hey, this is Fannie and her cousin Mae."

- Six months out.

- Right, exactly.

- Sure.

So, Ashley, so you get to deal with the students when they get to campus, right?

So you've worked at a number of institutions, mostly predominantly white institutions.

So for an African-American or a minority student coming onto the campus, what are some of the challenges that they face, maybe having to assimilate or coming into a new community that where, again, they're maybe the minority on campus?

- Yeah, I think one of the things that PWIs do a great job of is really publicizing their diversity metrics and numbers and what that looks like.

But diversity doesn't always equal inclusion and equity.

- That's true.

- And so when students come on campus, a lot of them will report that I just don't feel like I belong, and so they struggle to find that sense of belonging.

And so I think that's definitely one of the challenges.

And I think across the board students now, as Baron talked about, are really struggling with mental health.

And so knowing that sometimes there's a stigma around mental health in communities of color, students are already coming in with that background.

And so as student affairs professionals, we encourage students to go to the counseling center, this is free mental health care that you can get.

Sometimes they struggle to either take that extra step or even pull away from their academics.

So a lot of times we'll hear students say, well, I have to get my work done, or I don't have time outside of class to take care of myself.

And so sometimes there's a disconnect between like taking care of yourself helps you to academically succeed!

- Yeah, you're going to be in a better place mentally.

Well, since since you work directly with students, how has COVID affected the population of students, you know, from going hybrid to coming back to campus?

That had to be really challenging for all students.

But, you know, talking about students of color?

- Yeah.

I think for students of color, and I think all students in general, the struggle has been trying to figure out how to socially interact with people.

And so for students of color that already struggled with the sense of belonging, I think has hit them doubly more of how, you know, especially our first-year students that came in to a completely hybrid collegiate experience.

Now it's almost like they're meeting each other for the first time.

And so that has really been difficult for them to be able to navigate.

And then I think just some of the trickle downs of feelings of loneliness.

And an interesting one that we've seen at Cedar Crest is fatigue.

So students are used to a completely hybrid experience.

So they've been engaging in curricular and co-curricular experiences on their laptop.

And now they have to have the energy to go to class, right?

So now they're, you know, they're just reporting fatigue, that they literally are just tired.

So that part has been interesting.

- Well, maybe the metaverse will help that.

We'll all be virtual, right?

Is it Facebook, the metaverse?

I don't even know.

So, Baron, you get to travel and you go to inner-city schools as well as suburban schools.

What are some of the differences that you see and how does that impact your recruitment?

- There is a community condition that is plaguing some of our inner cities at this point.

The largest portion of my career has been recruiting down in the city of Philadelphia, down in the Philadelphia public charter and private schools in that area.

And now my newer recruitment has me in the areas of Pittsburgh and Baltimore and D.C. a little bit more often.

And if you watch the news one day ever in any of these cities, there are some community plagues that are affecting how our students look at education, and just how they look at the value that they have on their life.

I always say to my colleagues who don't necessarily recruit inside of the cities like I do, I can tell you the worst moments that I've had in my admissions career have been the times where I had to receive phone calls to take somebody off of my admissions roster that was murdered and will no longer be attending the university because they were gunned down to violence.

And not to call that the primary issue that plagues our communities, but that is definitely one that a lot of times goes unaddressed and sometimes doesn't get the attention that it deserves.

- Yeah.

- The other thing that can sometimes plague our communities are just some of the biases that students deal with coming up through the education systems.

And what I've learned is, these biases aren't ignored in the primary PWI district type of environments, as well as the majority-minoritized districts.

Students experience these type of biases and things of that nature all the time and the stigma that comes with that follows them through this higher education process.

I remember I was down at a school in Philadelphia and I was recruiting a class of students, and one of the young ladies pulled me to the side and said, "How come it seems like when white admission "counselors come into our buildings, "it seems like they don't actually want us there "but when we see a councilor like you, "it seems like you do?"

And I was baffled and I didn't have an answer for her.

Just so knowing that that is some of the experiences that they've had definitely contribute to their... - Yeah, I can imagine that anxiety of having to come into a new community, right?

To leave what you've known all of your life, maybe a first or second generation college student and go into a community that may not be welcoming.

There's so much internal bias, many a times implicit bias in institutions, right?

They call it systemic racism that permeates through the halls, through the admissions, through the financial aid and even to the professors.

So you have an opportunity, Ashley, as a, you know, a director of dorm or residence life to create environments that are welcoming.

What are some of the things that you've been able to do to help folks feel more comfortable, all people feel more comfortable on a college campus?

- I think as a director, I challenge myself to make sure that diversity, equity inclusion is at the top of my strategic plan and something that I'm continually thinking about.

And so for me, when it comes to hiring student staff like resident advisors, making sure that I'm actually going to identity-based student organizations to recruit staff so that our RAs look like our student body and so that students feel comfortable.

I think also sort of at this point in my career, I've also been intentional about leveraging assessment data to give students of color a voice and spaces that they may not ever step foot in.

And so it's hard for administration to ignore data, you know what I mean, that's aggregated for me to be able to say, "Well, this is how black students are feeling on campus, "or this is how Latinx students are feeling on campus.

"This is how our students of color "that are also first-generation "are feeling in the residential environment, and this is "what we need to do."

And so most recently, we created a themed housing community for students of color on campus to be able to live together in a residence hall, feel as though they have community and support.

And so that's definitely something I do.

And then I think it's important for administrators to be seen on campus, you know, in spaces where students of color are, to really fully integrate yourself into the community.

Because you never want to be in a space where you've created a separation.

It's one thing for you to be there but if students don't know that you're there, then you're not really able to support them.

And so I think sometimes support and creating a welcoming environment is easy as your presence and your hello.

- That's good.

Well, you graduated from a local school, right?

Lafayette College, the Lafayette Leopards - go Leopards.

So, so what was your experience like on the on the campus of Lafayette?

- Yeah.

You know, I had a phenomenal experience at Lafayette.

I think one of the things that helped me is my high school career was also in a predominantly-white environment as well.

And so I think the transition for me was a little bit more seamless.

But I think one of the things that I was intentional about doing was getting involved on campus.

And so that would definitely be something that I would encourage students of color to do is to get involved.

Like I feel as though student engagement really transforms your student experience.

So the moments in which you feel like you don't belong, some of that is... You know, the institution has a responsibility to help you in that but sometimes it's inserting yourself, you know what I mean?

- Engaging, right?

Because then you're able to connect with upperclassmen, lower classmen and administration.

I had a great experience with a young man that I met at church on Sunday who goes to Moravian College.

And I said, "Hey, do you know Dr.

Hunt?"

He was like, "No, I don't know who Dr. Hunt is."

And so I got Dr. Hunt on the phone and I got this young man on the phone.

He's a senior getting ready to graduate.

- Wow.

- And, you know, to connect him with an African-American leader.

I think Chris is like the vice president of diversity and inclusion at Moravian.

- Vice Provost.

- Vice Provost, thank you.

And so we made the connection now for him to be able to know that in the administration, the upper echelons of the administration, there is someone that looks like him that can help him maybe navigate through his senior year.

Now, Baron, when you think about preparation, right, of our students and coming into college, there was a local survey that said that only 4% of African-Americans and Latinos, I believe, were taking the SAT to prepare for college in the Lehigh Valley.

And there was a waterfall project that they did where they did the research.

Can you talk about that preparation and what you see with our students?

- So there are mixed feelings that exist about whether the SAT and the ACT are appropriate measures of college preparation and college readiness for students.

The advice that I would give to a student, that I would say, if you're going to pursue those exams, take them seriously.

I'll leave their value up to a point of discussion at another time.

All right.

But if you're going to engage in those test measures, do the things that will make you successful in those exams.

There are free resources all over.

- That's huge.

- That that will help bring the scores up on those exams.

There are resources that are available online, at the public libraries, local churches, all types of different environments have different test prep measures.

They even offer those programs in schools.

I remember when I was on the school board in Easton, I was a board member and had no idea that we had test prep courses offered in our school, and I was on the board.

And if I didn't know, I know a whole lot of students in the community didn't.

- A large percentage.

Yeah, yeah.

- So just taking advantage of those resources and letting those resources help you bolster your success.

- OK. A lot of times the SAT and ACT, well, post-COVID have gone into this optional phase, but a lot of times there are financial aid opportunities connected to the results of those test prep, those test exams.

- Yeah.

- So if a student is going to pursue an SAT or ACT, they should really take it seriously.

Khan Academy is one of the more popular online resources that can help students raise their points 50, 100, 150 points quite easily.

- Yeah, that's amazing.

When you think about that, just that 50, 100 points can make all the difference, right?

There's government programs out there that if you score a certain number on the SAT, you get a governors scholarship in the State of Pennsylvania.

Board of Governors Scholarship.

I mean, that's important because, again, that lowers your student debt, right?

And you're getting an education for free.

So this may be for both of you.

Dr. Hunt, I mentioned him before, did his dissertation around code switching and around assimilation and how we talk and, you know, whether we need to be proper or not, you know, in certain spaces - do you find that there's a level of anxiety, Ashley, with our students who may be coming from an urban center and here they come on campus and there is this expectation, right, and some say it has its foundation in white supremacy, that we have to speak a certain way.

We have to cut our dreadlocks.

We literally did a show on the CROWN Act before, the young man who they weren't going to let graduate because he had dreadlocks.

But do you find that there's a level of anxiety with that and being able to assimilate and fit into the culture of the college?

- Absolutely, yeah.

I've recently had a student that actually told me, she said, I feel as though my professors treat me differently because I sound different and because I'm from an inner city.

And she even put it down, she talked about colorism as well.

She said that, you know, the other students that are African-American that are of a lighter skin tone and speak more properly than me, my professors are more willing to help them.

So it's definitely something that our students are thinking about.

Yeah, absolutely.

- That's got to be extremely challenging, right?

So do you get the question, Baron, when you're out there?

How many black kids are on the campus with me, right?

- The first question.

- What's the population?

And here's this here's the follow-up question - are there any black professors, right?

We were talking the other day and someone asked me about, you know, what was it like coming up in high school?

I said, listen, I didn't have a black teacher until I was a senior.

And he was teaching a black history class and he happened to be my coach.

But my whole K through 12 experience, I had never seen a black teacher before.

Is that an anxiety?

Is it a question that they want to know what the population is?

- Yeah, I've been in admissions since 2014.

I've been doing it for a little while now and I say that... - You don't look at old, Baron.

- Oh, well, thank you.

I hope the camera doesn't have the ten pounds that they say it does.

But I can't say enough that the post-Trayvon Martin, George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, I can't say enough how important that question has become since those events, those historical events that have happened in our community.

That wasn't the first question when I first started my career.

It was academic.

It was am I going to be successful in my major?

Will I have...?

Will I be able to be on the basketball team if I come to your university?

And that question has shifted to the top where now the first question when recruiting students of color is, what's your diversity rate?

Right?

I'm very blessed to be in an environment now where my vice president, my assistant vice president and myself and our director of financial aid as well are black men in the higher education enrollment industry.

- Yeah.

- So I'm lucky and blessed to be able to, you know, give that assertion to the students, but a lot of other universities don't have that to show.

And it is a primary question.

- And there's a move, right?

In all these Fortune 500 companies now there's diversity.

I've never met so many vice presidents of diversity, equity, inclusion in my whole life, right?

But over the last year and a half, two years, I think America has come to a reckoning that there's an imbalance, right?

Administratively, there's an imbalance in pay, there's an imbalance in promotions, and so it becomes imperative.

So what about yourself as a director and what you do?

Are there others consistent at that level that look like you?

- Not always.

- OK.

I think I knew the answer.

I just wanted to put it out there.

- No, not always.

But you know, as you said, I think in the world that we are now like institutions are understanding that.

And so, yeah, if you go like on higheredjobs.com right now, I mean, there's hundreds of diversity, you know, high-level diversity, equity, inclusion jobs.

So I'm often like, are we in the wrong field?!

- Yeah.

With all your education, you might be a vice president somewhere.

I'm not saying you should leave.

They need you there, right?

And I think that's so important when we think about this movement towards bringing diversity, inclusion, equity and really having a Courageous Conversation around school districtsm around colleges, universities, cities, counties, communities where there has been an imbalance of who is serving in high-level positions.

Baron, so what advice would you give to students who are outside of the SAT, ACT stuff we talk about, would you give to students preparing or desirous...?

Because I was reading the statistics earlier and college enrollment is down.

Right, right?

- A steady decline.

- Yeah, the trajectory is going in the wrong direction and we believe in education, we believe higher education is important.

But what advice would you give to a high school student that is hoping and desirous to go to college?

- The first piece of advice I would give is to research the career that you're interested in before you research the college.

- That's good.

- I remember, and of course, these things change.

The average student changes their major three times over the course of their four years in education.

It might be four, three or four.

- Yeah, that's still something.

- At one point in my life, I wanted to be a pharmacist.

- OK. You worked at CBS, for many years.

- Many years, as a pharmacy technician.

And then I went and chose a school that doesn't have a pharmacy school, or it didn't even have a pre-pharmacy program at the time that I attended.

- Right, right.

- So knowing the career before you know the college, it will definitely be helpful in creating this process.

And then the second piece of advice would be a very, very simply put piece of advice.

But such a paramount to the process.

Ask the questions.

- Wow, - I deal with...

So I typically say to my Student Affairs colleagues that the student affairs side sees 28 to 30% of the students that the enrollment end sees because we also see the students that didn't choose our universities.

So we work with a lot of different students along this process, and you would be so surprised about how many students will send me an email to tell me what they know about our process that they didn't read anywhere or ask anybody.

They just created how they think this should work.

And then I have to be the bearer of bad news and said, Whoa, whoa, what are you talking about?

That's not how this process works.

Ask the questions that you need answered to create a level of success.

- OK, thank you.

Ashley, what about you?

So they're coming to the campus, right?

I've got accepted.

I made it through Baron's recruitment, right?

And I've I've chosen your school.

Like, what are steps to preparation for students and for parents as well?

- Yeah, I would definitely come back to the financial literacy piece.

And so really looking at your financial aid package, I think a lot of students just look at the bottom line like, what do I owe now?

And they miss the fact that, well, the aid that you received is not necessarily grant-based aid or even, you know, I owe like $5,000 to $10,000 per semester.

But what does that actually look like for me to be academically successful now that I have to work 30 to 40 hours a week to be able to pay that?

And so I think paying attention to those things, even in the recruitment process, looking for schools that have higher endowments because the higher the endowment is, the more grant-based aid that they have.

And so they think that, you know, going to these top-tier universities is out of reach when really there is pockets of money,,, - That we don't know about many times.

- Right, there for you.

- That's good.

- And then I would say, prepare to advocate for yourself.

So one of the things that makes secondary education different from higher ED is that in secondary education, your teachers, the counselors that are there, they will seek you out to make sure that you have the resources that you need.

Higher education, in student affairs, we have a plethora of resources, but you have to come to us.

- Nobody's going to tell you to get up and go to student affairs.

- Exactly.

And so I think preparing to advocate for yourself, being comfortable with asking for the things that you need.

Because I mean, all divisions of student affairs, they can meet small needs, like if there's a student that doesn't have a laptop.

Every vice president of student affairs or dean of students has a pocket of money with emergency aid to help you with those things.

- That is information that's important, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

- Those are the two pieces of advice that I would give.

- So, so talk.

Go to the office, meet with the individuals.

We had Tina Richardson, she's the CEO of Penn State, Lehigh Valley, and that was one of the things that she said.

She's like, "Look, just come to the office, ask questions."

Because if you inquire, you might find a pot of money or you might find some resources, you might find some food that somebody can feed you, right?

Absolutely, absolutely.

So, Baron, as we come to a close, there are students, right, who may have some apprehension about the whole financial commitment, right?

And about, you know, I can't afford this.

And so they would just walk away.

What would you say to a parent, a student, to encourage them?

Maybe give them an idea of what are some... We mentioned the governors scholarship before.

What are some of the opportunities for them to find resources to come to school?

- Tap every resource.

Your local Walmart.

- Walmart.com has all types of different scholarship opportunities and things of that nature.

The local fraternities and sororities, the churches, the Kiwanis Club, tap all of those individual resources and gain as much as you can.

- OK.

The other piece of advice I would give is to call the financial aid office.

And that sounds so simple, but you'd be very surprised at how many people don't do that.

And I think there's a stigma that exists that they're just trying to take our money.

But, no, that's the bursar's office that wants to take your money.

The financial aid office wants to give you... - To give you some aid.

- Yeah, they want to give you money, right?

- That's good.

- And if you if you aren't comfortable reaching out to those types of administrators, find somebody in your circle that that you can conference with.

Or is comfortable, or you are comfortable with having reach out with you.

Yeah, there are tons of resources in the communities.

Just last week, I helped a student who had a financial aid issue with his housing cost.

I was able to help him out and figure out where he can find, you know, relief for that aid.

So in your community, there's somebody, there's a teacher somewhere, there's an administrator down at City Hall or something, or just somebody who you interact with, that can give you the ease that you need to reach out to the people that you need to speak to.

- That's exciting.

So, Ashley, in one minute, give us a final thought for students and parents that are, you know, maybe sending their kids off to school.

- Yeah, I think think about what your passions are and how can you round out your classroom experience to be able to pursue all of those?

And so think about study abroad experiences, think about like, you know, internships and externships.

Think about experiential learning opportunities that can really sort of round out your educational experience, but then also prepare you to move on after college so that you can be successful.

- That's amazing.

That's amazing.

Well, thank you, Ashley, and thank you, Baron.

The information that you provided hopefully will be inspirational to a student, a parent to say, you know what?

My child, if they desire, can go to college.

There are resources.

There are people that they can connect with to give them a successful journey on their higher learning experience.

So, you know, on behalf of everyone here at PBS, I want to say God bless you.

I hope that you enjoyed your holidays.

2021 has been a challenging year but, by the grace of God, we made it, so we'll see you next week.

Enjoy your holidays and God bless.