The problem with systemic racism is that it is all around us.

We're born into it.

It's deeply embedded in our culture and our communities, including our schools, the justice system, the government and hospitals.

It is so pervasive that people often don't even notice how policies, institutions and systems disproportionately favor some while disadvantaging others.

People often mistakenly believe that simply being not racist is enough to eliminate racial discrimination.

The problem with this perspective is that white people are often unaware of their own unconscious biases.

People often don't fully understand the institutional and structural issues that uphold white supremacy and contribute to racist behaviors, attitudes and policies.

Hi, my name is Pastor Phillip Davis, and welcome to Courageous Conversations.

Joining me on the show today is Selam Debs.

She's an anti-racism course creator and an anti-racism and oppression educator.

Listen, stay right there.

We'll be right back with Courageous Conversations.

Well, Selam, welcome to the show.

We're so glad that you could join us all the way from Canada.

But, you know, we're blessed to be able to do this by Zoom.

I'm so excited to be able to have this conversation.

Welcome.

- Thank you, Phillip, thank you so much for inviting me on.

I'm happy to be here.

- It's an honor.

So, we only have a short period of time, but I really want to dig in and talk a little bit.

You seem to be an expert in all things anti-racism and unconscious bias.

Tell us about this journey.

How and when did you get started with your work?

- Yes, well, I just want to start first, like, just acknowledging that for me, I live and work on the traditional territory of the Neutral, Anishinaabe and Haudenosaunee peoples and that I'm situated on the Haldimand Tract, the land promised to Six Nations.

You know, really a big part of the work that I do is helping us uncover and look at how systems of racism, of oppression have impacted both black and indigenous and racialized people here on stolen land in Canada.

And even in America, it's stolen land and also across the globe.

So for me, growing up, I think anti-racism has always been embodied.

I think if we think about what the definition of anti-racism is, is that it's a process of actively identifying and opposing racism.

So the goal is really to challenge systems, policies, behaviors, belief systems.

And I think as a young person, I've always done this in some capacity, whether it be through organizing or speaking out or doing talks at schools and in different organizations.

And really, when I think about where this is rooted is in my journey as being an Ethiopian Canadian.

So my parents coming to Canada in the 1980s, leaving Ethiopia due to civil unrest, and, you know, watching my parents have to survive, particularly my mom.

I grew up with a single mother in Toronto in the disinvested communities that we grew up in, where we experienced racism, where we experience a lack of access.

I had to be in contact with different systems due to experiencing abuse at a young age and having to be in relationship with the welfare system, and I've had some experience with policing and brutality.

And so I think all of that really shaped who I am today and the reason why I built the anti-racism course, and raising a 16-year-old boy and a son who is black and having to face those systems too, that it's always been ingrained in me.

And now I think there's just a global recognition for this work, but I think we've all been doing it in some capacity.

- Yeah, yeah.

Thank you for that.

You know, and so often as Americans, we think that racism is just really prevalent here.

Some of us think that.

But we understand it to be a national problem that has many and much of its roots in colonialism.

Can you talk a little bit about that and how this is a global issue and not just a regional issue or national issue?

- Yeah.

Well, I think it's important for us to understand that black and brown people are the global majority, right?

We are called minorities, but we're not.

And the reality is every black and brown country across the globe has been colonized due to the kind of white European agenda of colonialism, which was power and privilege and capitalism.

And what we hear in history books, maybe in school, they might be calling it explorers or conquerors, but the reality is white Europeans have colonized, subjugated, exploited, extracted every black and brown country across the globe.

And so the same is true for Canada, and a lot of folks don't understand that this is... Canada and the US have almost the exact same history in relationship to indigenous people being colonized in Canada and also black people being enslaved for 250 years here in Canada and also segregation and civil unrest and so forth.

- Right, right.

You talked about some of your experiences, you know, coming from Ethiopia with your family.

Can you share maybe what those experiences were like?

Because I think a lot of times people are disconnected from the actual experience.

So can you talk a little bit about what you've experienced as a black female in Canada?

- Yeah, I think it's important to understand that, you know, racism shows up in many different ways.

A lot of folks think that racism is just I don't like you or I hate black people or I'm racist towards black people, but it's actually the ways in which systems operate.

And when my family, my parents came to Canada in the 1980s, I grew up with my single mother in disinvested communities where we didn't have access to adequate health care, we didn't have access to healthy grocery stores, we lived in communities that were at the peripheral.

So these were, like, the projects, where black and brown people were really not seen in the rest of the city.

We were kind of pushed away and our communities were surveilled by policing and we lived in cockroach infested apartments like many parts of the world.

And we didn't experience racism in relationship to many white folks because we didn't see a lot of white folks.

We were around mostly black and brown people.

But then my mother moved us from the disinvested communities of Toronto and moved us to Kitchener-Waterloo, which is a predominantly very white community, suburban community.

And we lived in disinvested communities there, and I experienced a different type of racism, overt racism, but maybe the kind that you would see in, like, Texas.

- Wow.

- That type of racism where you were called the N-word on a daily basis, where you were excluded from having access to many different qualities of life.

And so, yeah, that definitely happened here.

- So your journey has really shaped and framed your lens as it relates to anti-racism, and you've actually stepped up and began challenging systems of oppression and white supremacy with the work that you do, which is so exciting, because so often people hide behind that pain, even that trauma manifests in other ways in our behavior and the things that we do, but you've really stepped to the forefront and begun to challenge those systems.

And your anti-racism curriculum seems to take a look into anti-racism.

So, for some of my viewers, right, because we have a diverse viewing audience who may not be African-American, what does it mean really to be anti-racist?

- Well, I think there's a difference between being not racist and being anti-racist, like you spoke about, Pastor Phillip, which is the realization that to be not racist is this idea that we are all one.

There's a colorblindness kind of perspective.

Maybe you're not overtly, you know, perpetuating harm.

But to be anti-racist is to actively really examine, reflect on and dismantle systems that are perpetuating harm, perpetuating racism.

And I think it's important for folks to start to understand that the reality is that no matter who you are, no matter how kind you are, no matter how caring you are, no matter how intelligent or progressive or liberal you are, that we've all been socialized in an inherently racist society.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

Can you talk about what that socialized means?

Because I think it's important to highlight those nuances that are important.

- Well, what it means is that from a very young age, that the moment that we come into the world, that we receive messaging, we receive messaging from the stories that we watch, the books that we read, the teachers that we see, who is considered a leader and who is not, the beauty standards.

All of those things are constantly... We're receiving those messages on a daily basis unconsciously.

And that messaging, what it tells us is this, that whiteness is a supreme standard to which everything is measured by and that anything divorced of that is really considered inferior.

And so that messaging is deeply grooved into the way that we see the world.

Even for us as black people, that is a sort of internalized racism that we have to uncover.

- Yeah, I mean, colorism comes out of that, where we judge one another based on the hue of our skin and the level of melanin that is in our skin, when melanin is very valuable.

People are trying to buy melanin now, right?

But understanding that perspective is so critically important because, you know, I have a lot of white friends and when we're having discussions, like, you know, I'm not racist, you're my friend.

We're cool.

And I'm like, Yeah, but what you don't understand is that the messaging that has been embedded into you as a man, as a woman, literally gives you a lens to see me differently.

And by purpose, by the folks who have created it.

But you don't understand the impact that it's had on you.

So we've had a lot of great discussions around race and around how we view one another.

Here's a perfect example.

January 6th happened here in the United States, and some people are calling it the insurrection.

But I asked a white friend of mine.

I said, What would have happened if those folks that rushed the Capitol were black?

How would you answer that, Selam?

- Well, we know what would happen.

We know that black people, those people wouldn't be alive today or they would be incarcerated.

We know the fact that unconscious bias or implicit bias is the recognition that when police officers or when white people see black bodies, they see them as inherently criminal, as inherently predators, as bodies that need to be civilized, need to be really oppressed.

And that's due to the history of colonialism, of enslavement, of segregation, all of these ways in which that white European colonial agenda has played out.

And I think it's important for us to understand, like what you were saying, Pastor Phillip, around the importance of differentiating between what being anti-racist is.

Being anti-racist is different than diversity and inclusion, which is what a lot of people are talking about, because the idea of diversity is the idea that we, as black people, are different than the status quo, than the norm.

And when we say diverse, diverse from what?

Diverse from the white standard.

And when we're saying inclusive, what are we asking black people to be included into?

Are we asking black people to be included into inherently racist systems that haven't changed, that don't have new policies, that are not showing representation?

That's why it's important for us to build an anti-racist lens.

- Yeah, it's amazing, because they just had a thing here in America in regards to voting rights.

And it's amazing that 100 years after the amendments that granted voting rights and then after the 1964/65 voting rights, you know, a bill here in America, we're still voting to get rights to vote in America.

So what I understand is that there are systems and structures that play a part in racism that have been built to oppress people.

How do you, as someone teaching anti-racism, approach those systems and structures to try to dismantle white supremacy?

- Yeah, well, I think what we have to start to understand is that if we are not having these difficult conversations and revealing them, that we are not going to be able to create the change.

A lot of organizations and systems want to maintain the status quo by perpetuating this idea of colorblindness... - "I don't see color."

I get that all the time.

Yeah, "I don't see color."

- Well, the idea that if we talk about race, aren't we creating more harm when the reality is white people are a race and the ability to not have to talk about race is a privilege, to not have to address it is a privilege?

And so systems need to begin to look at the ways in which white supremacy is showing up in their spaces due to lack of access, due to lack of representation, having uncomfortable conversations and really creating actionable policies that are in relationship to those conversations.

- Yeah, we like to call it Courageous Conversations!

You know, the interesting thing is the governor of Florida is passing a bill, or I guess he's trying to get a bill passed, that prohibits anyone from making white folks feel uncomfortable.

Governor DeSantis.

And you know, where does that impetus, where does that type of mind-set come from?

- Well, it comes from the fact that, you know, equity and revolution or freedom or equality can feel like oppression to those who benefit from a racist society.

- OK. - Right?

So if I say to you, we are going to change systems in such a way that creates equity for everyone, for white people who have had that unearned advantage, who have benefited from a racist society, they're like, I don't want to lose that, I don't want to lose what has been my platform and my foundation.

- Mm.

That's very powerful, because there's a whole conversation around critical race theory, right?

And the individuals who have introduced it as, you know, making white folks feel bad about being white and indoctrinating children to hate their skin has nothing to do with critical race theory, but they've been able to message it in such a way and weaponize it in such a way that they're denying the need to teach an accurate history of America.

And so I asked my friend, we were having a dialog, I said, Listen, what is it that you think people don't want their kids to know as it relates to the appropriate history in America?

But again, that goes back to systems and structure and power that really significantly gives an advantage to others.

And when you begin to consider the atrocities that were done to black and brown folks, you know, Native Americans, those that were here, indigenous people that were here before Columbus arrived, it challenges these falsely held beliefs.

And so when you're taking folks through your curriculum, what is the hopes when you come to the end of spending time or they're gaining information from your curriculum?

- Well, what I try to help folks understand is that that discomfort, that desire to not want to know is really an oppression in of itself.

The realization is that white supremacy steals the humanity of white people as well, and the recognition that when you are not coming face-to-face with this history in a way we can't really, truly heal, we can't actually create spaces that are safer, that are braver, that are equitable, and the course and the curriculum and the learning really helps folks move through this unlearning process.

It's the recognition that maybe you didn't know, maybe you weren't aware, but taking accountability and starting to re-educate yourself, beginning to understand the true history of the country that you live in and starting to actually see black, indigenous and racialized people as human beings and starting to recondition that thinking is a big part of that unlearning and relearning process.

- That's great.

That's great.

I mean, when you think about the need to dehumanize someone, to treat them as cattle, to cut off body parts, to lynch them and hang them, to rape their mothers and sisters, impregnate them and then sell their children, if you see yourself as a good, Christian human being, how can you justify doing that to another human?

So there has to be a level of dehumanization of the individuals that you're dealing with, because if you make them less than human, then you're not doing anything wrong.

Can you talk a little bit about that mentality and where that cognitive dissonance comes from, this disconnection between what I believe and what I'm actually doing to hurt someone?

- Absolutely.

And that is the history of Canada and the US and many other parts of the world, was that white European agenda.

In order to be able to justify the dehumanization, the degrading, the subjugation, the exploitation, the raping, the torture of black bodies and many indigenous bodies, as well, was that you had to create this lie that black people were inferior, that black people could experience more pain, that black people, you know, weren't human beings and so therefore could be treated like cattle.

And really, the bigger agenda, of course, was capitalism and power over and free labor and so forth.

But we have to realize that that thinking is showing up today, in every single day, in our work meetings, in going on the bus, in interacting with the health care system, that doctors don't believe black people when we say that we are in pain.

- That's empirical research.

That's data.

Yeah, absolutely.

- 100%.

And that children, for example, are adultified, they're not seen as children and therefore experience police brutality or have severe reparations or repercussions in school.

And we have to understand that that thinking, that mind-set is deeply showing up in every single day life today.

And until we uncover that, reveal it, unlearn it, relearn and start to rebuild and create new structures that actually tangibly change our systems, we will continuously perpetuate that.

- Yeah, this idea of discomfort is really, really important, I think.

So how do you...?

Well, it's a two part question.

Do you do your work with corporations, schools, businesses?

And how do you confront and unearth, I'll say, without making folks feel guilty for being white?

- Yeah!

Well, I think, you know, the way that I operate is that I work with organizations, I work with institutions, I work with individuals, I work with businesses, companies, churches and I help them examine the idea of them even feeling, first of all, the natural response to understanding the history of white supremacy, colonialism, genocide, enslavement is a feeling of feeling bad, that there should be a feeling of not feeling good about that.

And I think what I hope white folks understand is that it's not OK to stay in that place.

It's OK to use that feeling of, Wow, this is my ancestry, or this is my history, or this is how I've perpetuated harm, and then move that into action as opposed to this idea of being fragile.

This idea of feeling like, Poor me, and, look, I must be a bad person, because what that is is just white centering.

And it takes the conversation away from what we really need to be doing, which is the liberation, the freedom, the safety, the dignity of black, indigenous and racialized people.

And we can't do that if we're worried about keeping white people comfortable.

We're past that.

We're at the stage where we need to look at how can we begin to change hearts and minds and how can we begin to move forward in action?

- Yeah.

You said something earlier that struck a chord with me in regards to the images that have been placed before us, and religion has played a very big part of that.

As a pastor, you know, I pastor millennials, young people, old people, as well.

And there is a stark difference even from my baby boomer generation to my millennial generation.

My millennial generation is, you know, how come there was at some point this understanding that Jesus was white, right?

And this discussion around, you know, Northern Africa, Middle Eastern skin complexion.

Why was it so important for them to change the view of Jesus, who is God in the Christian standpoint?

Why was it so important to change that image?

Can you talk a little bit about that?

You'll be helping me as a pastor, too.

- Yeah, and I work with a lot of churches in helping them understand that.

They'll come to me and say, Look, we want to do the work of building an anti-racist church.

But the reality is, you know, you got to take down your pictures of your white Jesus first, before we can talk.

And a lot will not.

Our churches or congregations are not willing to look at that because the reality is when we understand that whiteness has been considered the supreme standard to which everything has been measured by, that includes the idea of God, the idea of Jesus, the idea of prophets.

And you know, I think there's a deep connection to this idea of control and power over and superiority.

And when we think that Jesus himself was a white man, it reaffirms and reinforces this idea that whiteness is superior, when the reality is black and brown people are the majority, Jesus was a brown, black man, the idea that many of these faiths actually grew out of black and brown cultures.

But the agenda of colonialism and power over was the whitewashing, the extracting, the exploiting and the turning it into something completely different.

- So true.

When you think about it, no real religion was ever developed in Europe, right?

It's true.

I mean, check history, right?

All of the religions came out of Africa and the Middle East, right?

And they were taken over in some ways and Europeanized, because the scripture clearly says about Jesus in the Book of Revelation that he had feet like brass and hair like lamb's wool.

I don't know too many white folks who have hair like lamb's wool and feet like brass, but it is contradictory for them to honor, and even the pictures in the Vatican, if you go down to the lower levels, the pictures of the Madonna and Jesus are black.

But somehow they've been hijacked, and in this information generation, I call them, you know, they're confronting historically held truths with information that that disintegrates arguments, because the documents are right before you, which is really exciting for me, because there's an evolution, even as it relates to religion and responds to the Diaspora and black folks all across the world, not just these United States.

So, we're coming to a close.

Can you just kind of give me some last thoughts about what you would like to communicate to our viewing audience about anti-racist work?

- Yeah, I think what is important for folks to walk away with is the realization that this is an ongoing, embodied journey.

This isn't just about learning new information.

We've talked a lot about many things, but this really is about understanding that none of us are free if some of us are not free.

And that realization is coming back to our humanity.

People are scared to talk about anti-racism because they think like we've talked about that it's a shaming or it's making you feel guilty or putting you down.

But actually, it's calling you to your humanity and calling you to your best, truest self so that we can move forward in a way that ensures that everyone has dignity and has safety and feels a sense of belonging.

- That's amazing.

I saw a video the other day, and a young lady was talking about the whole Monopoly board and how black folks have been disenfranchised for 400 years, which represented every time around the Monopoly board.

And at the end, she said, It's a good thing that black and brown folks are asking for equal rights and not revenge.

And I think the fear for many white people is that if black folks ever get in power that we would do the same thing to them, in the words of a great orator, that we would do the same things to them that was done with us.

But that's never been the history of black folks.

It's never been.

We've never been classified as a violent people, except for in the news media today.

Selam, I want to thank you for just shedding your wonderful light on the issues of anti-racism but also all of the issues that we were able to discuss today.

Thank you so much.

On behalf of everyone here at PBS39, I'd like to thank our viewing audience for tuning in.

May God bless you.

May you keep being courageous and having Courageous Conversations.

We'll see you soon.