- According to the Cooperative Children's Book Center's data, between 1985 and 2014, children's books by African-American authors or illustrators never surpassed 3.5% of annual publications.

Books containing African-American content never reached 6%.

Even more sparse were books about Asian Americans, Latinos or indigenous people.

in 2018, the CCBC statistics found the following percentages of books depicting characters from diverse backgrounds.

1% American Indians or First Nations.

5% Latinos and Latinas.

7% Asian/ Pacific Islanders.

10% African-Americans.

27% animal or other, and 50% white.

It's important for children to see themselves represented in books to boost their self-esteem and create a positive image of themselves.

Hello, my name is Pastor Phil Davis, the host of Courageous Conversations.

Today on the show, I have three brilliant young writers who are providing content for children of color to educate and inspire them.

Joining me today are Deborah Mortimer.

She's the author of Zorah And The Very Big Question and the owner of Leap Forward publishing company.

Amanda Chambers.

She's the author of What Jobs Can Girls Do?

and owner of Divine Legacy Publishing.

And a former professor, Dr Kimberlie Harris, author of I Love a Good Book and owner of PHraseD, a professional writing and editing company.

Welcome to the show.

Stay right there.

We'll be right back.

Well, ladies, let me say thank you for taking time out to come on Courageous Conversations and talk about the amazing work that you're doing in inspiring a generation through your gift and your craft and what you're called to do.

So I really want to jump right in because you have so much to share as it relates to what you're doing.

Deborah, I want to begin with you.

You've had a very interesting journey.

What prompted you to work in the space that you're working in right now?

- Well, I'm an attorney, and I was getting a little tired of being a traditional litigator, so I had been trying to find a way that I could marry my love of writing and education, children, and my skills as an attorney all together.

I happened to be doing some research for my sister, who was writing a book.

And in the process of doing my research, I realized that this was it.

This was it.

Publishing and especially publishing books for children really kind of married everything together.

And so I decided to take that leap forward - play on the pun, which why I called my company Leap Forward Publishing - and publish a children's book.

I was going to do a whole series and help other aspiring authors to get their voices out there, because I did see that void of children's books with characters that look like us.

- Wow, that's amazing.

And we actually met at Juneteenth, and you were out there promoting and talking to folks, which is exciting.

Let me ask you, Amanda.

This book that you wrote, What Jobs Girls Can Do?

Can you talk a little bit about that and why it was important for you to write a book specifically for young girls and to inspire them around what they have capacity and ability to do?

- Absolutely.

So it was kind of twofold for me.

One, growing up in the eighties and nineties, you didn't see a lot of representation for black women in their different jobs that they could hold.

And so that was kind of a void when I was growing up.

But I also have, well, she was six at the time, but I have an eight-year-old and she, one day we were just watching, actually, we were watching PBS Kids, and she asked me what was an occupation.

And I was like, "Oh, well, you know, "it's the same thing as a job," because we homeschool.

So I'm her mom and her teacher.

- Oh, wow.

OK. - And so I was like, "It's the same thing as a job.

"It's just, you know, a larger word for a job."

And then she looked at me and she said, "Oh.

"Well, what jobs can girls do?"

And this child is surrounded by women with amazing jobs, careers, positions, and so it occurred to me that if she was asking... ..then a lot of other little girls didn't have representation and didn't have that, that ability to just open up a book and see someone who looks like them doing a myriad of jobs.

So that was kind of what birthed it, and I asked her if she wanted to write the book with me.

And she said, "Absolutely, Mommy."

And that's how the book was born.

- That's exciting.

So you co-authored with your daughter?

- I did.

- You don't find that too much in the world, but that's exciting because she provides a child's view, right?

And what's important to them totally through a different lens than that of an adult.

So Amanda, you've done some amazing work.

Can you...

I'm sorry, Dr Kimberlie, can you talk a little bit about your work?

And I'd like to understand PHraseD and what that company is and what you accomplish with that company.

- Well, it's a pleasure again to be here with you, with these two phenomenal authors.

I have similar experiences to both of them.

It's eerie listening to our stories because it is literally the same story to a different person.

But I'm an educator and I work within the fields of curriculum and instruction.

I write, I design curriculum.

I teach gifted students, and I've done that for 17 years so far.

And it was always alarming to me the gap that existed between my male students and my female students.

Every year, no matter what form I was in, no matter what we did, no matter the interventions that we put in, there was never any hope of filling the gap.

And I started thinking and I spoke with several of my colleagues and I said, "What if we're going about this the wrong way?"

Because typically when we start running interventions in school, they're happening, you know, in first or second grade, etc.

And I said, "Well, what if we need to do this on the back end "before they even get to school?

"What if the gap that we need to fill is in educating parents "and their support environment "in what it looks like to build lifelong readers, "how to get children interested?"

And I started doing research to that end.

And lo and behold, there's research that dates back to as early as infancy, where if a parent picks a child up to read, if it's a girl, she's going to be more amenable to it, she's going to relax and cuddle into them.

A little boy is going to, you know, try to push away and get down and go play with the cars in the box.

And unfortunately, most parents would just let the boys go because there was this belief that that was what boys were supposed to do.

- Mmm.

- They didn't want to sit and be read to because that's just not in their nature.

And unfortunately, that's where the gap was starting.

It was starting way before they even got into a school, way before there was a teacher or a parent who tried to read to them, it started with the fact that they weren't being read to because that helps to build vocabulary.

It helps them to start falling in love with books and reading.

And it scared me because in that same moment when I was doing that work, I was pregnant with a boy of my own.

And I thought, you know, what if with all my experience and with everything I know, I still can't save him from this fate because there's not enough books out there that he can relate to, that look like him, that are written about the things he's interested in?

- Wow.

- So that is where PHraseD, which is my copy-editing...

I first started out trying to help other small business entrepreneurs, and then I actually segued into PHraseD Jr, which is just for my kid.

So PHraseD Jr is my kid company.

That's where the books and all my publishing will be released.

But PHraseD Jr's to help adults and those who want to get information.

I have a blog and I share tips and resources for parents.

- I love that, and you think about the fact that, you know, there's research out there that says in the African-American and minority community, by the time our children get to kindergarten, they're significantly behind others as it relates to vocabulary, articulation, being able to understand and communicate words.

So it's imperative, reading is essential, right, to the growth.

Let me come back to Deborah.

Let's talk a little bit about kind of what I read in the intro as it relates to this large gap of publishing that is representative of the minority community.

Have you experienced that as you were putting your work together?

And how have you been able to kind of navigate through realizing that there's just not a lot of representation out there for our children?

- Well, yeah, you know, it's funny because when I read those statistics as well, I was astounded by it.

I couldn't believe that animals outranked blacks, black children in children's literature.

And I have asked a few people that I know who work in traditional publishing why that is.

And I think that the sentiment was that the need wasn't there or that those kind of books wouldn't sell.

And so they just didn't publish those types of books.

I remember my first book, A Snowy Day written by Ezra Keats, that was the first book that I ever saw that had a child that represented me, and I don't think I've seen much books after that.

But for me, I know what my book...

I didn't want to go the route of traditional publishing because I thought that it might be rejected.

- Right.

- That, you know, that this is not going to sell.

So that's the beauty of independent publishing.

I have a publishing house, but that's the beauty of it is that you can create your own path, and more and more black and brown authors are starting to create their own path.

And it's beautiful, because now the statistics have gone up just a little bit to 12%.

I don't know, they haven't done the study since 2020, so maybe with the, you know, during this pandemic, unfortunately horrible pandemic, but people have been finding different ways, different passions, like myself, right?

And so therefore, we might have a lot more black and brown authors out there with a lot more black and brown books when they do their next study.

- Mm hmm.

- But I think that their need is there.

Traditional publishing houses are starting to figure that out and realize that the need is there with the flood of black and brown books by black and brown authors.

So I have seen an uptick in books being put out by traditional houses.

- Yeah.

- Hopefully, the narrative is changing, and women like the authors here on the panel, we are all doing our part to change the narrative because it is my feeling that it's not just important for children who look like us to see representation of themselves in these children's books, but I think it's very important for children everywhere to see this representation.

It's important for other children to learn, see, and appreciate people who do not look like themselves.

Because if they are presented with diverse books from a young age, then as they grow, they will grow to appreciate the diversity in the world.

- Sure.

- And then certain things like Black Lives Matter won't have to be said because it'll already be known.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

It seems that... You know, it's amazing because when you look at the gap in representation, it's not just in the African-American community, as you heard - it's in the Latino community, it's in the Asian community, it's in, you know, our Native American community.

And so I think that the publishing world has been dominated by, you know, Caucasians, and therefore they're reproducing, right, that which is representative of the historical reality in America.

Now, Amanda, can you talk a little bit about where you are as it relates to continuing to develop the work that you're doing and really building it out?

Because I think it's a series, if I'm not mistaken.

Can you talk a little bit about that and why it's important to continue that work?

- So not only is it important because I want other black children to see themselves represented in books, but also because we are a unique family.

We're homeschoolers, right?

And so typically when you think of homeschool or you see homeschoolers, you do not see black families represented.

But we are just a regular average normal black family, and we chose to homeschool my daughter for quite a few reasons.

But the series is Brooke's Homeschool Adventures, and so the books will start with me teaching her something, just like this book starts with us sitting on the couch talking about stuff, and it will...

It will follow her adventures that she learns.

She's going to learn about dinosaurs, you know, and then she's going to go off on an adventure in her head, and she's going to end up in the prehistoric era and so on and so forth.

And I want it to kind of grow with her, if you will.

This book came out when she was six, now she's eight, and then once she gets into middle grades, I want to have chapter books and stuff like that to continue her adventures, because I really, um, I really want people to know that there are educational options out there.

Now, homeschooling isn't for everyone, and it is certainly not for the faint of heart.

- I've heard that somewhere before.

- Yeah, but there are options and black people are multifaceted and that is not represented anywhere, honestly, you know, I always hear the, "Oh, you're a homeschooler?

Really?"

You know, and it's like this look of shock on their face.

And I'm like...

"Yeah."

I mean, I don't know what else to say.

- Right.

- So I really want that... that representation out there.

Also through my publishing company, Divine Legacy Publishing, I have children's authors.

We publish everything and we're actually a self-publishing company.

So what I do is I teach authors to self-publish their books and then it's a community.

You know, we have monthly author hubs.

We do events.

Before COVID, I was hosting face-to-face book fairs every year for them.

We've taken them online since COVID, but hopefully we'll be back face-to-face soon.

We would have author weekends, we do writing sprints and everything.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And I have children's authors, a lot of children's authors, and they all have representation in their books.

- That's exciting, right?

Because now you're not only doing the work that you're called to do, but now you're inspiring, educating and uplifting your community, because we really have to multiply ourselves, because if we don't, right, it dies with us.

So I like that it's Legacy.

That means something.

Now, Dr Kim, you mentioned that you are a professor.

You write curriculum.

So there's this conversation.

Let me just kind of go off the script a little bit here.

There's conversation around critical race theory.

And you know, why or why not, right?

Or should it be taught in schools?

Is it taught in schools?

And it's just, it's so overwhelming for people to really understand that critical race theory, number one, is not being taught in elementary, in educational settings.

It's a graduate level, you know, thing.

Can you talk a little bit about that if you would, and just educate our folks around, you know, why this fight is even happening?

And here's the question that I always ask.

If you don't want to teach an accurate history of America, then just say that, right?

Don't cloak it in critical race theory, and, you know, that you're teaching kids to hate themselves and feel like they're oppressors and colonizers.

But, you know, let's just talk straight about what's really going on.

Can you talk a little bit about that, if you can?

- I think you've already said a mouthful and actually this came up yesterday in another group that I'm a part of, somebody posted a meme and I'm not sure if you all are familiar with it, but it shows... ..a little black girl in, goodness... Ruby Bridges.

It shows Ruby Bridges going into her school and being attacked with stones by people surrounding her.

And the caption at the top said that people who are afraid of critical race theory are the people who were in those crowds throwing at her, saying negative things, and they don't want their grandchildren finding out that that's who they were.

- Right.

- And I think unfortunately, a lot of the issues that we have with people not wanting an accurate history taught is... On levels, they're embarrassed, they realize what they did is wrong, and instead of just owning that up and apologizing and saying, you know, "I know better now, "I'm in a different place, I have a better worldview," they'd rather for it to be shrouded.

And that doesn't help anything because one of the main things I tell my students when we teach history and social studies is, we learn these things so they don't reoccur.

We learn about the Holocaust.

We do all these things so we learn where we've erred as humanity, as people.

And so we figure out the things we need to do to keep positively moving forward and so we don't move backwards.

- Right.

- And as you mentioned, it is not something that's taught in elementary school.

So a lot of the people who are involved in this dialog, they don't even have a dog in the fight.

- Mm-hmm.

- And I actually had this conversation with one of my...former parents, at this point.

But I said to him, all elementary curriculum is available for your purview at your discretion.

- Right.

- I mean, we send this out with you.

We specifically state what is being taught, the order in which it's being taught - it's not any secret.

And why would you be afraid of history?

It's already happened.

It's not like we're fabricating or making something up that is not true.

- Yeah.

- It has happened, and we just want our children to know, here are the things you can learn from, and as Deborah mentioned earlier, it's not just important for our children to see books where our children are represented.

I'm Jamaican born and raised, and I came here on a scholarship for school, but I knew way more about America than I did about my own culture, because that's what the books are about.

There are more books about, you know, anything in America than I would have ever found about my own experience growing up in Jamaica.

And just like Amanda said, that's a part of what I'm doing.

My next series of books will be about the experience of growing up as a child in Jamaica.

- Wow, wow, that's exciting.

And you know, I just had to bring it up because it, you know, they've weaponized this idea of critical race theory, and it is shrouded under the umbrella of white supremacy.

That we have the power, we control the narrative and you're not going to teach this history that, you know, exposes.

We had, a couple of weeks ago, we had Ed Brown on who was a part of integrating a school in the South.

He's now an attorney and he's been an attorney for many years.

And he shared his experiences from teachers to administrators to, he said every time he got on the bus, there had to be a state trooper that would escort the bus from where he was picked up to the school.

Right?

And we don't think about the impact of the trauma that those folks had to go through to afford us the opportunities that we have today.

So Deb, Deborah, as you are doing the work that you're doing and creating, you know, the books that you're creating, are you being accepted in school districts?

Are you looking to be in spaces that are educational or is it more for the individual to be able to purchase and acquire the work that you're doing?

- Oh, no, that's secondary.

It's definitely a goal for me to get those books in the school.

And it's so funny because I have my book, Zorah And The Very Big Question, which has a very similar theme to Amanda's book, has a teacher's guide that Dr Kimberlie Harris designed for me.

- Oh, OK, all right!

I'm seeing the connection now, right?

- That she designed for me because it's a book that gets children critically thinking about the world and how they fit in it, and to look at different professions, but not look at them from the standpoint of, "Oh, I just want to be like a racecar driver," but why?

Why do you want to be a racecar driver?

What is it about that profession that you're attracted to?

Is it because they go fast or they're tenacious?

What is it?

And what is it that you like to do and that you're good at that makes a particular profession appealable?

So it's about getting kids critically thinking and to know ultimately that they can become anything that they want to be.

Because of course, like Amanda said, our black and brown children are not born knowing inherently that they can become anything.

But to the point that you made a little earlier, it's funny because I had a book signing one time and I had a parent come up to me and said that, "Oh, you know, I would love to get your book.

"I have a sister who teaches "in the Allentown School District."

And I said, "Hmm.

"What about, what school district is your daughter in?"

And she told me the school, I said, "Well, why not for your child?

Why not...?"

"Well, you know, this doesn't really represent her."

I said, "No, this is not a black book.

"It is a book that happens to have "black characters in it."

I said, "My child grew up reading nothing but "white characters in children's books, "and it shouldn't be that children's books "that have white characters are the standard.

"That shouldn't be."

- Right.

- So, and you know, and I said, "So this book is not only important "for the child in the Allentown School District, "but also for your child in your school district."

- That's good.

- And she thought about it and purchased two books.

So for her child and for her sister, so I thought that that was, you know, it's important to have those conversations with people of all colors and let them know that this is a book...

It's not a black book, it's not a brown book.

It's a book that happens to have these black and brown characters in it, and it's just as important for your child to read it as it is for mine.

- You know, we like to call it Courageous Conversations, right?

Because it was through that conversation that you were able to enlighten and inspire, right, and open somebody up to a different view.

And so often when we begin to talk about race, it becomes defensive.

"I'm defending my point, you're defending..." That's why America is so polarized right now, because people don't take time to sit down and have a dialog and a conversation around issues of race and justice and equity and diversity.

So Amanda, I wanted to come back to you to ask a question.

You said that you have, you're working with a number of authors.

Can you talk a little bit about that and what your work is really focused around?

- It's focused on making sure that black voices get heard.

So I'm a former college professor, I have three degrees in English, and when you have degrees in English, you either teach or you edit, it's pretty, you know, standard there.

Or you write, and I've done all of them.

I'm a former college professor.

I taught college English for years.

But one thing that I kept seeing is this blocking of black voices and authentic black voices.

They want you to whitewash it, or...

They either want you to whitewash your work or they want it to be the street lit.

- Sure.

- And we're... We're way more than that.

We're so multifaceted.

Not that street lit isn't a thing.

I'm originally from Baltimore, so... - All right.

B-More.

North Charles Street.

- But, you know, we're so multifaceted, and the just average everyday regular run-of-the-mill black voice doesn't get heard.

It has to be this extreme.

- Yeah.

- And I really detest that.

There's no other way to say it.

And so, you know, what about the breast cancer survivor?

You know, her story needs to be shared.

What about the woman who, you know, found religion or changed a religion?

What about these romance novels that, you know, when I was growing up, I used to steal my mother's romance novels.

You know, I did.

But they were never...

They never looked like me.

Do black people fall in love?

You know?

Does that happen?

- Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

- And so that is my focus to make sure that we are not silenced.

Our voices are important.

Our stories are important.

It's important for the world to see that we are multifaceted and that's my goal, to get those voices out and to get those stories out.

- And the more that I spend time with the three of you, I realize y'all are some educated, bad black sisters.

I mean, y'all are doing it, you know, from attorney, publisher, PhD.

This is something, and one of the things that we really wanted to do with our show was to change the narrative, because what the world has seen as it relates to African-American and Latino, Latinx, right, is that, you know, uneducated, not capable, not with the mental acuity or acumen to be able to accomplish and achieve.

And listen, I'm sitting here feeling like I need to bring my game up a little bit, y'all.

Y'all are doing it well.

But I'm appreciative.

Hey, listen, real quick, we got two minutes left.

Can each of you just kind of give us a quick blurb on where folks can get your information from?

I'll begin with you, Dr Harris, since I'm on your side.

Can you talk about where can we get your stuff at?

- I am exclusively on my website at this time, which is PHraseDllc.com/shop - OK. - You can get your copies of I Love A Good Book, and the one thing I always try to speak up is you can donate copies.

Thank you, Deborah, because I forgot to have my own copy with me, but I love to encourage people to donate books.

And as Deborah mentioned, one of the things I've been doing, in addition, is writing curriculum for other authors to help them to break into the school system.

- Thank you.

Deborah, you want to go next?

- Yes, you can find my book Zorah And The Very Big Question... - OK. - ...at LeapForwardBooks.com You can also purchase a teacher's guide, Dr Kimberlie Harris designed a terrific teacher's guide, on my website as well, and for the school districts, you can also purchase bulk orders of Zorah And The Very Big Question and I would be, if you're local more than happy to come in and read the book and do the curriculum with you, with the class to help children think critically about what they want to be when they grow up.

- OK, Amanda, how about yourself?

- So you can find What Jobs Can Girls Do?...

- I love it.

- ...on my website, AmandaMChambers.com, Amazon.com, Legacy Book Bar, which is based out of Baltimore, Maryland.

I'm also going to be picked up by a couple of other bookstores soon, so check my website and make sure that you know where you can find my books.

- Wow.

Well, listen, we could have went for a whole hour, but I would like to thank each of you for agreeing to be on the show.

Your work is inspiring.

It is impactful.

Thank you all very much for taking the time out to talk with us today.

I'm Pastor Phillip Davis, and on behalf of everyone here at PBS39, I'd like to say thank you for viewing.

God bless you, and keep being courageous.

We'll see you next week.