>> Laura: WELCOME, ALICIA.

>> Guzman: THANK YOU.

>> Laura: THANKS FOR BEING HERE, AND CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR RECENT NATIONAL AWARD.

>> Guzman: THANK YOU.

>> Laura: I'M SURE THAT MOST PEOPLE IN OUR AUDIENCE ARE FAMILIAR WITH YOUR WORK.

BUT WOULD YOU JUST DESCRIBE YOUR BEAT FOR US?

>> Guzman: SURE.

FOR THE LAST YEAR AT SEARCHLIGHT NEW MEXICO, I'VE BEEN COVERING NUCLEAR ISSUES.

FOR ME, WHAT THAT INCLUDES IS EVERYTHING FROM URANIUM MINING TO THE PRODUCTION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS, TO THE STORAGE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS, TO THE STORAGE OF WASTE FROM THE PRODUCTION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

SO, IT'S REALLY THE FULL CYCLE CRADLE TO GRAVE.

>> Laura: YEAH, I'M SUCH A HUGE FAN OF YOUR WORK AND WHAT YOU DO.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

I'M SUPER EXCITED THAT YOU'RE HERE TODAY.

>> Guzman: THANK YOU.

>> Laura: I'D LIKE TO TALK BRIEFLY ABOUT BURIED SECRETS, POISONED BODIES WHICH PUBLISHED IN DECEMBER, IS THE STORY YOU WON THE MOLLY AWARD FOR.

WHAT STARTED YOU ON THE PATH TO REPORTING THAT PARTICULAR STORY?

>> Guzman: THAT STORY, I MEAN THAT STORY REALLY DROVE ME CRAZY.

AND THE REASON WHY WAS BECAUSE I HEARD FROM A SOURCE THAT THERE WAS A WOMAN FROM TRUCHAS, WHERE I'M FROM, WHERE I'M BORN AND RAISED, THAT HAD THE MOST PLUTONIUM IN HER BODY FROM THE TRINITY DETONATION IN 1945.

AND OF COURSE WHEN I HEARD THAT I THOUGHT IF THAT PERSON IS FROM TRUCHAS, I MUST KNOW THEM OR I MUST KNOW THEIR FAMILY, OR WE'RE RELATED, OR WE'RE NEIGHBORS.

THERE'S SO FEW PEOPLE IN TRUCHAS.

AND SO IT REALLY PUT ME ON THIS PATH TO SEARCH FOR HER, AND TO ULTIMATELY FIND HER AND HER FAMILY AND LO AND BEHOLD, YES, I DID KNOW HER FAMILY.

AND WE WERE NEIGHBORS.

I'VE KNOWN THEM SINCE I WAS A CHILD.

SO IT WAS JUST A REALLY OFF-HAND TIP FROM A SOURCE IN AN AIRPLANE COMING BACK FROM D.C., AND THEN I HEARD IT AGAIN THAT SAME TIP FROM A DIFFERENT SOURCE DOWN BY THE TRINITY SITE BY WHITE SANDS.

AND SO I THOUGHT, OKAY, WELL I'VE HEARD IT TWICE, AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT PUT ME ON THIS PATH AND I THINK IT TOOK ME SIX MONTHS ULTIMATELY TO FIGURE OUT WHO SHE WAS AND WHAT HER STORY WAS.

AND HOW HER STORY WAS.

AND HOW HER STORY HAD REALLY BEEN PAPERED OVER, I THINK, IN MANY WAYS.

>> Laura: SO THAT STORY IS ALSO ABOUT ILLEGAL AUTOPSIES.

WHO PERFORMED THEM ON WHO AND WHY?

>> Guzman: BASICALLY, THE REASON THAT WE KNEW SHE HAD PLUTONIUM IN HER BODY BECAUSE SHE HAD BEEN ONE OF ABOUT 2,000 PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN ILLEGALLY AUTOPSIED AS PART OF A STUDY CALLED THE HUMAN TISSUE ANALYSIS PROGRAM.

AND THERE WERE SEVERAL HUNDRED PEOPLE HERE IN NEW MEXICO WHO WERE SUBJECT TO THAT STUDY, BUT IT REALLY BEGAN IN THE LATE 1950s WHEN SCIENTISTS AT LOS ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY WERE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW PLUTONIUM IMPACTED THE BODY.

AND SO IN LOS ALAMOS, A PERSON DIED FROM PLUTONIUM EXPOSURE.

EXTREME PLUTONIUM EXPOSURE, AND HE WAS THE FIRST IN THIS STUDY.

SO THEY AUTOPSIED HIS BODY WITHOUT THE INFORMED CONSENT FROM NEXT OF KIN.

AND THAT WAS IN 1959.

AND THAT BEGAN THIS PROGRAM IN CONJUNCTION BETWEEN LOS ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY AND LOS ALAMOS MEDICAL CENTER.

SO THEY KIND OF -- THE CHIEF OF STAFF WOULD COLLABORATE WITH LOS ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY.

AND IF SOMEBODY DIED AT THE MEDICAL CENTER, AND THERE COULD BE SOME NEED FOR AN AUTOPSY, THEN THEY WOULD PERFORM IT AND BASICALLY LOOK AT AND TAKE OUT SEVERAL DIFFERENT ORGANS.

INCLUDING LIVER, LUNGS, SPLEEN.

IN SOME CASES VERTEBRAE AND BONE.

IN MEN, GONADS.

SO IT WAS A HORRIFIC, HORRIFIC STUDY.

IT TOOK PLACE FOR ABOUT 35 YEARS.

AND IT WAS LITIGATED, SO WE DO KNOW THAT AT LEAST THERE WAS SOME SMALL MEASURE OF JUSTICE.

I SAY THAT IN A WAY THAT I KNOW IT'S REALLY NOT JUSTICE AT ALL.

BUT IT WAS SETTLED BACK IN 2010 AFTER MORE THAN TEN YEARS OF LITIGATION.

>> Laura: SO, THERE WAS THIS LAWSUIT AND SETTLEMENT.

WAS THERE ANY KIND OF APOLOGY, ADMISSION OF HOW INCREDIBLY WRONG THAT IS?

LIKE A HEALING PROCESS, ANYTHING LIKE THAT?

>> Guzman: I DON'T THINK THAT THERE REALLY WAS A HEALING PROCESS, TO BE QUITE HONEST.

THERE WERE PROBABLY TEN PEOPLE LISTED ON THE LAWSUIT.

YOU KNOW, FROM THE STORY THAT I WROTE, WHAT I CAME TO FIND OUT THIS IS WOMAN HAD BEEN ILLEGALLY AUTOPSIED.

SHE HAD THE MOST PLUTONIUM IN HER BODY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON AUTOPSIED IN THIS STUDY WHO WAS NOT A WORKER.

AND HER FAMILY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE LAWSUIT.

THEY WERE NEVER CONTACTED, OR IF THEY WERE, THEY SEND OUT LETTERS AND MAKE NEWSPAPER ANNOUNCEMENTS, BUT THEY NEVER GOT ANY OF THAT.

SO THEY DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL I CAME TO THEM AND SAID, HEY, I BELIEVE -- I'M 90% SURE THIS WOMAN IS YOUR GRANDMOTHER, BUT WITH YOUR HELP I'D LIKE TO PROVE IT.

THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

SO, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE EVEN WHO DID KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THERE WAS ANY MEASURE OF RESOLUTION.

SPECIFICALLY IN THIS CASE, THERE WAS NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT IT UNTIL SIX MONTHS AGO, REALLY.

SHE DIED IN 1972.

>> Laura: AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPORTING ON THIS.

I FEEL LIKE WHEN I FIRST MOVED TO NEW MEXICO, ALMOST 30 YEARS AGO, THE MAINSTREAM NEWSPAPERS DID COVER THE LABS TO SOME EXTENT.

YOU WOULD SEE NEWS ABOUT THE LABS.

NOT SO MUCH ANYMORE.

YOU'RE BASICALLY THE ONLY REPORTER WHO COVERS LOS ALAMOS WITH CONSISTENCY AND SORT OF INVESTIGATIVE CHOPS.

>> Guzman: IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU NOTE THAT BECAUSE LAST SUMMER THERE WAS THIS GROUP OF ATOMIC REPORTERS THAT GOT TOGETHER, AND THERE ARE VERY FEW ACROSS THE U.S. AND WE NOTED THAT IN OUR GROUP, BUT I THINK PART OF IT IS THAT ONCE THE COLD WAR ENDED, YOU KNOW, IN THE LATE '80s, AND ONCE PIT PRODUCTION LARGELY ENDED AT ROCKY FLATS IN COLORADO, I THINK THE WATCHDOGS SLOWLY DISAPPEARED INTO THE MIST.

AND NOW FAST FORWARD, WE'RE PRODUCING PLUTONIUM PITS AT LOS ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY AT AN INDUSTRIAL SCALE IN A THAT'S NEVER BEEN DONE IN LOS ALAMOS.

YES, IT'S BEEN DONE IN ROCKY FLATS, BUT THIS IS A REAL FEAT.

SO, I THINK THAT THE QUIETUDE PERHAPS IN THE JOURNALISM COMMUNITY WAS A RESULT OF, YOU KNOW, RELATIVE QUIETUDE IN TERMS OF PIT PRODUCTION.

THEY MADE A FEW HERE AND THERE.

MAYBE 30 OVER A 30-YEAR PERIOD.

BUT NOW THE GOAL IS TO MAKE 30 IN ONE YEAR AT LOS ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY.

SO, IT'S KIND OF NOW PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO WAKE UP THAT THE COLD WAR -- YOU KNOW THE FIRST COLD WAR ENDED, WE'RE ENTERING INTO A SECOND COLD WAR.

AND THIS ONE POTENTIALLY COULD BE MORE DANGEROUS.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT I'M STARTING TO THINK ABOUT NOW IS, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE -- WE'RE BARRELLING INTO A NEW COLD WAR AND WE HAVE NOT RECKONED WITH THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE LAST ONE.

AND SO EVEN THOUGH I'M LOOKING FORWARD AND INTO THE FUTURE ABOUT WHAT POTENTIAL STORIES I COULD WRITE ABOUT PIT PRODUCTION, ET CETERA.

AND PLUTONIUM PITS, BY THE WAY, ARE THE CORES THAT DETONATE EVERY NUCLEAR WEAPON.

BUT I'M ALSO THINKING ABOUT THE PAST.

ALL THE THINGS WE HAVEN'T DEALT WITH FROM THE PAST.

INCLUDING THESE STORIES ABOUT THIS WOMAN FROM TRUCHAS.

>> Laura: ARE THERE PARTICULAR CHALLENGES THAT ARE UNIQUE TO YOUR BEAT AND WORKING WITH THE LAB?

>> Guzman: YEAH, I MEAN -- YOU KNOW, I THINK LOS ALAMOS IS A PLACE BUILT ON SECRETS AND SECRECY.

SO THERE'S THIS -- YOU KNOW LIKE IN EVERY BEAT THERE'S A FEAR OF RETALIATION.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK TO SOURCES, BUT THIS IS BEAT HAS THE ADDED LAYER THAT IF YOU WORK AT THE LAB, YOU VERY LIKELY HAVE A Q CLEARANCE WHICH IS A HIGH SECURITY FEDERAL CLEARANCE.

AND SO YOU ARE BEHOLDEN IN MANY WAYS IN A WAY THAT'S EVEN MORE CHALLENGING THAN, SAY, BEING A WHISTLEBLOWER AT A PRIVATE ENTITY, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

SO I THINK -- THERE'S THE SECRECY ASPECT.

THEN THERE'S THE ASPECT OF TRYING TO GET RECORDS FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

AND SO THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT AFFORDS US TO BE ABLE TO GET RECORDS, BUT WHEN YOU PUT IN AN FOIA FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, YOU KNOW, I'VE HEARD PEOPLE WAIT NINE, TEN YEARS TO GET THOSE RECORDS BACK.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I COULD BE A HUNDRED AND STILL WAITING FOR A FOIA.

SO I THINK THAT'S ANOTHER CHALLENGE.

YOU KNOW, THOSE TWO ASPECTS ARE VERY MUCH CHALLENGES, BUT THERE IS A RICH RECORD HISTORICALLY.

AND SO I ALWAYS LOOK TO WHAT THAT RECORD IS, HISTORICALLY, TO HELP ME FIGURE OUT HOW TO REPORT ON WHAT, YOU KNOW, AN ISSUE THAT MAY BE TAKING PLACE IN THE PRESENT.

SO, A LOT OF MY WORK DOES INTEGRATE PAST RECORDS THAT ARE ALREADY AVAILABLE.

I JUST REALLY HAVE TO DIG FOR THEM AND FIND THE RIGHT ARCHIVE FOR THEM.

>> Laura: YEAH.

SO SOME OF THE REPORTING THAT HAS BEEN DONE, OR THAT DOES SHOW UP IN THE MAINSTREAM NEWSPAPERS, TENDS TO FOCUS ON WHEN LIKE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ISSUES LIKE A SAFETY REPORT, OR YOU KNOW CERTAINLY THERE'S THE OCCASIONAL POLLUTION STORY, VERY RARELY LABOR ISSUES.

AND ALMOST NEVER MORAL IMPLICATIONS OF BUILDING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

WHY DO YOU THINK WE SKIRT THAT ISSUE?

>> Guzman: YOU KNOW, IT IS -- AND I THINK ABOUT THIS TOO, IT IS SO HARD FOR PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT IT.

BECAUSE EVEN WITH OUR CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION, ON THE ONE HAND THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR RADIATION EXPOSURE COMPENSATION ACT FOR THE FOLKS WHO WERE THE FIRST VICTIMS OF THE TRINITY SITE DETONATION, AND FOR URANIUM MINERS POST 1971, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY'RE PRO MAKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS NOW BECAUSE OF THE JOBS.

AND I THINK PEOPLE ALWAYS GET CAUGHT UP IN THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS, QUESTION OF THE WHOLE THING, AND I HEAR ALL THE TIME FOLKS TELL ME IF THE LAB WEREN'T AROUND, YOU KNOW, ESPANOLA, THE SURROUNDING COMMUNITIES WOULDN'T EXIST.

THEY WOULD BE LIKE TUMBLEWEEDS, TOTALLY ROLLING INTO THE HORIZON.

I THINK THE ECONOMIC ARGUMENT HOLDS A LOT OF SWAY IN ECLIPSING THE MORAL ARGUMENT IS LARGELY WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO.

AND WHEN I TALK TO SOURCES THEY'LL SAY SOMETHING LIKE YES, IT'S BEEN A REALLY GOOD JOB FOR ME, BUT MY TIO UP IN CORDOVA AND MY COUSIN OVER THERE, BOTH OF THEM GOT CANCER AND DIED.

SO PEOPLE WILL, IN THE SAME BREATH, TALK ABOUT THE GOOD JOBS AND ALSO ENVIRONMENTAL AND HEALTH HARMS.

AND THAT'S BECOME, I THINK, BAKED INTO THE CULTURE AROUND THE LAB IS THAT YOU ACCEPT THE TRADEOFFS.

AND THAT TO ME IS ALSO PART OF THIS MORAL ARGUMENT AROUND THIS ISSUE IS THAT THERE IS A TRADEOFF AND YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT.

AND THAT IT REALLY CENTERS AROUND AN ISSUE OF CONSENT.

AND THE LAB ARRIVED, YOU KNOW, THROUGH EMINENT DOMAIN.

THE COMMUNITIES SURROUNDING DID NOT CONSENT.

AND NOW EVER SINCE THERE'S BEEN THIS RETROACTIVE ATTEMPT TO GET PEOPLE TO CONSENT THROUGH GOOD JOBS, AND WHAT IT'S LEFT US WITH IS THIS NEBULOUS, MORAL MURKINESS THAT WE CAN'T QUITE -- THE PEOPLE ARE TOO AFRAID TO REALLY NAVIGATE, IN A WAY.

SO, WHEN I WRITE ABOUT IT, I AM -- I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I'M PRIVILEGED TO BE ABLE TO SAY THE THINGS THAT OTHER PEOPLE CAN'T SAY BECAUSE MAYBE SOME PEOPLE DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE THE POWER OR THE VOICE TO DO THAT.

SO, I JUST -- I'M HONORED AND HUMBLED TO DO THAT TOO.

AND SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, IT'S EVEN HARD FOR ME.

>> Laura: YEAH.

LAST YEAR, WE HAD MYRRIAH GOMEZ ON THE SHOW TO TALK ABOUT HER BOOK AND NUCLEAR COLONIALISM.

HOW DO YOU FEEL -- OR DID LOS ALAMOS SET THE STAGE FOR NEW MEXICO TO KEEP -- >> Guzman: I THINK SO.

I THINK PART OF THE ARGUMENT IS THIS KIND OF HISTORY OF EXTRACTION.

AND I THINK THAT'S BUILT INTO ALL AREAS OF COLONIALISM.

AND I THINK ABOUT LIKE THE GREAT LATIN AMERICAN JOURNALIST EDUARDO GALEANO WHO TALKED ABOUT KIND OF EXTRACTION IN LATIN AMERICA AND HOW THAT MADE, YOU KNOW, CORPORATE CONGLOMERATES WEALTHY ELSEWHERE.

AND THAT TO ME IS KIND OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, NEW MEXICO HAS BEEN LAND RICH, CASH POOR.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF OUR RESOURCES ARE TO BE EXTRACTED.

WE HAVE OIL AND GAS.

WE URANIUM.

WE HAVE LABOR.

YOU KNOW THAT IS A RESOURCE TO BE EXTRACTED AS WELL.

I THINK THAT IN THE LATE CAPITALIST MODEL THAT WE'RE IN, YES, THIS IS AN EXTENSION OF COLONIZATION BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT OUR STATE WILL CONTINUE TO BE POOR, EVEN THOUGH WE CONTINUE TO BE -- TO MAKE MONEY.

OR TO PROVIDE THE LABOR, THE RESOURCES FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO, YOU KNOW, REAP FROM THE ARMS RACE, RIGHT?

SO I THINK THAT, YES, THIS IS AN EXTENSION OF COLONIZATION.

IT IS NUCLEAR COLONIALISM.

AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE, YOU KNOW, THROUGHOUT THE ARMS RACE.

AND AGAIN, WE'RE IN ANOTHER ARMS RACE.

>> Laura: SO WITHOUT SCOOPING YOURSELF, WHAT CAN WE LOOK FORWARD TO READING FROM YOU IN THE COMING MONTHS OR YEAR?

>> Guzman: SO, I'M GOING TO -- YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN REALLY FOCUSED ON LOS ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY FOR THE LAST YEAR, ON AND OFF.

I'M GOING TO START PANNING AROUND THE STATE.

YOU KNOW, HOPING TO DO SOME MORE URANIUM COVERAGE, URANIUM MINING COVERAGE BECAUSE AS YOU MAY KNOW WE'RE NOT REALLY TAKING URANIUM FROM RUSSIA ANYMORE.

THAT KIND OF PUTS PRESSURE ON US.

I'M GOING TO REALLY THINK THROUGH THAT ISSUE.

AND THEN -- I'M TRYING TO THINK.

AND I'LL PROBABLY COME BACK TO LOS ALAMOS AND DO SOME COVERAGE.

YOU KNOW, I KEEP COMING BACK TO PLUTONIUM, SO I THINK I'LL ALWAYS COME BACK AS LONG AS WE'RE PRODUCING PLUTONIUM PITS.

THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE SOMETHING TO WRITE ABOUT.

>> Laura: WELL, AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK.

THANKS FOR BEING ON THE SHOW.

>> Guzman: THANK YOU.