♪♪ >> VACCINES HAVE BEEN STIRRING DEBATE - AND CONTROVERSY - EVER SINCE AN ENGLISH COUNTRY DOCTOR NAMED EDWARD JENNER SCRAPED PUS FROM A MILKMAID'S COWPOX BLISTER INTO THE ARM OF HIS GARDENER'S 8-YEAR-OLD SON - AND THAT OCCURRED IN 1796.

IN THE LATE I'M JON SCHWANTES, ON THIS EDITION OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS, WE'LL LOOK AT HOW THAT CONFLICT IS PLAYING OUT IN THE HOOSIER STATE.

DON'T GO AWAY, INDIANA LAWMAKERS FROM THE STATEHOUSE, TO YOUR HOUSE.

FOR BETTER OR WORSE, IT QUICKLY INVOLVED OR MUTATED INTO A PITCHED BATTLE BETWEEN STATES, BETWEEN POLITICAL PARTIES, BETWEEN ECONOMIC SECTORS, BETWEEN BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT, AND BETWEEN FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL'S ROLE IN SOCIETY.

JOINING ME TO MAKE SENSE OF IT ALL ARE REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE MATT LAYMAN OF BYRNE.

RYAN HATFIELD, AN EVANSVILLE DEMOCRAT.

KEVIN BRINEGAR, PRESIDENT AND CROW OF THE INDIANA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, AND BRIAN TABOR, PRESIDENT OF THE INDIANA HOSPITAL ASSOCIATION.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE FOR THIS IMPORTANT DISCUSSION.

I WONDER IF WE COULD START WITH SOMETHING I OBSERVED LAST WEEK WHEN I WAS DOING CLOSE TO 100 INDIVIDUAL INTERVIEWS WITH MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AS PART OF A PROJECT WITH IPBS.

THE FIRST QUESTION WAS WHAT'S ON THE MINDS OF FOLKS IN YOUR DISTRICT?

AND THE VAST MAJORITY SAID COVID.

IT WAS THE ANSWERS TO THE SECOND OR FOLLOW-UP QUESTION THAT I FOUND REALLY REVEALING, HALF THE PEOPLE SAID, YEAH, THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT WILL THEY GET SICK?

HOW DO THEY STAY OUT OF THE HOSPITAL, WHERE CAN THEY GET TEST KITS?

HOW CAN THEY GET TESTED.

HOW ARE THEY GOING TO TAKE CARE OF CHILDCARE.

MY CONSTITUENTS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT AN ASSAUL ON PERSONAL LIBERTY, ENCROACHMENT ON PERSONAL LIBERTY.

CLEARLY SPELLED OUT THE DICHOTOMY.

WE'LL START, MATT, WITH YOU, GIVE ME HOW YOU VIEW COVID GENERALLY, PERSONALLY AND THROUGH THE EYES OF, IN THIS CASE, YOUR CONSTITUENTS, WHEN WE GET TO THE ASSOCIATION PRESIDENTS, WE'LL SUBSTITUTE MEMBERS FOR CONSTITUENTS.

MATT LEHMAN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US ON TODAY.

SORRY, I WOULD SAY FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, AND I COME FROM A VERY RURAL AREA IN NORTHEAST INDIANA.

AND IT BEGAN LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, WE JUST DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE FUTURE HELD, WE WENT THROUGH THE PROCESS OF WE SHUT DOWN, DID THE MASKING, THE VACCINE CAME ALONG AND I'M VACCINATED, I THINK IT IS A GOOD THING TO DO, WE SAW PEOPLE GETTING VACCINATED.

THEN WE IN THE LAST PROBABLY YEAR, AT LEAST LAST SIX OR EIGHT MONTHS, MY DISTRICT HAS BEEN, QUOTE, BACK TO NORMAL.

THIS REALLY HAS NOT BEEN AN ISSUE WHEN I GO TO TOWN MEETINGS, SEE PEOPLE AT THE GROCERY STORE, CHURCH.

TAX CUT THING, HOW IS THAT GOING TO AFFECT ME?

WHY DOES MY KID STILL HAVE TO WEAR A MASK AT SCHOOL?

COVID WEAVES INTO ALL THIS, IN IDEA THAT'S AT THE TOP OF THE PEOPLE'S LIST, IN MY DISTRICT, IT IS STARTING TO MOVE DOWN J RYAN, FOLKS IN EVANSVILLE.

>> YES.

SURE, YOU KNOW, COVID-19 STARTED OUT, I THINK, AS MATT DESCRIBED, AS VERY WORRISOME, WE SAW NUMBERS SPIKE IN HOSPITAL BEDS BE A CONCERN.

AND THEN I THINK WE STARTED TO SEE SOME RELIEF AS PEOPLE GOT VACCINATED.

NOW THAT WE'VE KIND OF HIT THAT NUMBER OF VACCINATIONS, WE'RE STARTING TO SEE IT TAIL OFF, AND NUMBERS STARTING TO COME BACK UP.

I REPRESENT TWO MAJOR HOSPITALS.

I CAN TELL YOU THAT WHILE THE GROCERY STORES ARE FILLED BACK UP, AND THERE ARE FOLKS WEARING MASKS, AND DOING THE RIGHT THINGS, AND IN SOME WAYS, LIFE HAS GOTTEN BACK TO NORMAL.

FOLKS WHO WORK IN THOSE HOSPITALS CAN TELL YOU LIFE HAS NOT GOTTEN BACK TO NORMAL.

NUMBERS CONTINUE TO INCREASE, BEDS ARE STILL A CONCERN.

AND THEY'RE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR WELL-BEING AND THEIR HEALTH.

AND I'LL ADD, PRIMARILY AROUND THEIR CHILDREN.

AND THOSE WHO CAN GET VACCINATED, OR CHILDREN UNDER 5 WHO CANNOT GET VACCINATED WHO ARE GOING TO SCHOOL, AND AROUND LARGE NUMBER OF OTHER KIDS, EVERY SINGLE DAY, WHAT WE KNOW BY THE NUMBERS, MOST OF WHOM ARE NOT VACCINATED, AND IT'S A CONCERN.

THEN ONCE THOSE KIDS ARE SENT HOME, WHETHER THEY'RE SICK OR SOMEONE ELSE IN THE CLASSROOM IS SICK, THAT INVOLVES EMPLOYMENT PROBLEMS, CHILDCARE PROBLEMS, AND IT REALLY IS DISRUPTING NOT ONLY OUR CHILDREN'S DAILY LIVES, BUT THEIR PARENTS WHO ARE UNABLE TO GET TO WORK BECAUSE OF CHILDCARE ISSUES.

AND SO IT'S STILL A STRAIN IN EVANSVILLE.

I THINK THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

>> LET'S CONTINUE AROUND.

KEVIN BRINEGAR.

>> WELL, WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS EMPLOYERS ARE STRUGGLING WITH THE UPTICK IN THE CASES.

THEY HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT WITH COVID, OR QUARANTINED.

ONE MEMBER THAT'S GOT RETAIL STORES ALL AROUND THE STATE, AND IS HAVING TO REDUCE HOURS, AND IN SOME CASES CLOSE STORES FOR PERIODS OF TIME BECAUSE THEY JUST DON'T HAVE THE STAFF.

SO, YES, WE'RE TRYING TO FUNCTION IN MANY WAYS AS FORM, BUT THERE IS THIS DARK CLOUD OF COVID, PARTICULARLY WITH THE UPSPIKE IN THE -- THE UPTICK IN THE OMICRON VARIANT.

IN OUR SHOP, HERE AT THE CHAMBER, I'VE GOT 10% OF MY EMPLOYEES OUT WITH COVID, ONE OF THEM VERY SEVERELY.

AND WE'RE HAVING TO ADJUST AND MAKE DO WITH FEWER PEOPLE, AND NOT HAVE ACCESS TO SOME OF THE EXPERTISE THAT WE NORMALLY HAVE.

AND SO IT IS -- BRIAN CAN TALK ABOUT THE HOSPITALS, BUT WE KNOW THEY'RE STRETCHED TO THE MAX.

AND IT IS WITH MANY OF THOSE ARE WITH PEOPLE THAT AREN'T IN THEIR WORKPLACE.

AND SO IT'S CONTRIBUTING TO SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUES, AND QUITE FRANKLY CONTRIBUTING TO THE INFLATION THAT WE'RE SEEING.

>> BRIAN TABOR, INDIANA HOSPITAL ASSOCIATION.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK -- I UNDERSTAND THE DESIRE OF THE CONSTITUENTS THAT REPRESENTATIVE LEHMAN TALKED ABOUT I SHARE THE DESIRE TO RETURN TO NORMALCY VERY MUCH SO FOR MY KIDS, AND SCHOOL, AND EVERYTHING.

THEY WANT TO PURSUE THEIR ATHLETICS.

AS REPRESENT HATFIELD SAID, IF YOU LOOK WITHIN THE FOUR WALLS OF OUR HOSPITALS ACROSS THE STATE, THEY ARE IN AN EMERGENCY STATE.

IT IS AT A CRISIS LEVEL IN TERMS OF OUR STAFFING, THE NUMBER OF PATIENTS THAT WE'RE TREATING, WHERE WE DON'T HAVE A NORMAL BED.

WAYS VISITING SOME HOSPITALS JUST LAST WEEK UP IN NORTHERN INDIANA, AND WE'RE TREATING PATIENTS IN HALLWAYS, HUNDREDS OF PATIENTS ACROSS THE STATE ARE WAITING FOR A BED IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM.

AND WE'RE JUST NOT ABLE TO CARE FOR PATIENTS IN THE WAY THAT WE WANT.

THAT'S NOT JUST PATIENTS WITH COVID, IT'S AFFECTING PATIENTS THAT NEED CARE FOR ALL KINDS OF CONDITIONS.

AND SO WE'RE JUST NOT THERE YET.

THE SYSTEM IS UNDER EXTREME STRAIN RIGHT NOW.

AND I HOPE THAT IT WILL BE RELIEVED SOON, AS THIS MAYBE NEXT WAVE KIND OF SUBSIDES.

BUT RIGHT NOW THINGS ARE VERY PRECARIOUS.

>> BRIAN, JUST TO FOLLOW UP, THIS WEEK DID BRING YET ANOTHER RECORD IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF PATIENTS ADMITTED TO INDIANA'S HOSPITALS WITH COVID, IS THAT CORRECT?

SEEMS EVERY WEEK -- BY THE TIME PEOPLE WATCH THIS FOR THE EIGHTH TIME, I'M SURE PEOPLE WATCH IT TEN TIMES, MAYBE UP ANOTHER RECORD NEXT WEEK, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING?

>> WE SET A RECORD LAST WEEK FOR THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF PATIENTS WITH COVID IN THE HOSPITAL.

WHAT'S REALLY CONCERNING, WE ALSO HAVE REACHED A RECORD FOR THE TOTAL NUMBER OF PATIENTS.

WE'RE ALSO SEEING THAT RAPID PANDEMIC, HOOSIER'S HEALTH HAS DECLINED FOR VARIOUS REASONS, MAYBE CARE WAS PUT OFF, BECAUSE SOMETHING HAD TO BE RESCHEDULED, OR FOLKS WERE AFRAID TO INTERACT WITH THE SYSTEM.

WE'RE SEEING IN OUR EMERGENCY ROOMS, A LOT OF INSTANCES OF BEHAVIORAL HEALTH PROBLEMS, I THINK.

SO IT'S NOT JUST COVID, BUT COVID IS CLEARLY TAKING UP ALL THE CAPACITY THAT'S BUILT INTO THE SYSTEM.

SO WE DON'T JUST HAVE A CRISIS OF COVID PATIENTS RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE A CRISIS OF TOTAL PATIENTS.

AND COVID IS A HUGE DRIVER OF THAT.

AND IS REALLY TAKING UP ALL THAT CAPACITY.

>> WE'VE SEEN THE LANDSCAPE ON THIS ISSUE.

SO LET'S DIVE IN TO WHAT THE LAWMAKERS IN OUR STATEHOUSE ARE HOPING TO DO ABOUT IT.

AND THAT TAKES US BACK TO MATT LEHMAN.

THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY FOR REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE, YOUR CAUCUS, MATT LEHMAN, YOU ARE THE FLOOR MAJORITY FLOOR LEADER.

SO YOU YOU ARE IN LOCK STEP WITH THAT GROUP CERTAINLY, IS YOUR BILLS, HOUSE BILL 1001, AND THAT NUMBER BEARS SIGNIFICANCE, THAT MEANS IT'S THE TOP PRIORITY, IF ANYONE DOUBTED, TO END THE GOVERNOR'S EMERGENCY HEALTH ORDER, AND TRY TO RETURN IN THE WORKPLACE, WHICH IS YOUR BILL DEALS ALSO WITH AS QUICKLY AND AS SEAMLESSLY AS POSSIBLE.

TELL US WHAT LURKS BEHIND 1001, YOUR MOTIVATION AND WHAT YOU HOPE TO ACCOMPLISH.

>> 1001, THE GENESIS, REALLY COMES OUT OF ANNOUNCEMENTS IN SEPTEMBER BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE A MANDATE ON ALL BUSINESSES.

THEN FOLLOWED BY CMS, ALL HEALTHCARE, ET CETERA.

THE RESPONSE TO THAT WAS -- IS WE WOULD BEGIN TO GET -- I BEGAN TO GET A LOT OF CALLS FROM PEOPLE WHO SAID I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS.

AND THE LONG-TERM EMPLOYEE, AND MY EMPLOYER IS TELLING ME THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE DISMISSED IF I DON'T GET THE VACCINATION, I'M YOUNG, I'VE TALKED TO MY OB/GYN WHO SAID BE CAUTIOUS, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS MIGHT DO.

AND SO I THINK WHAT -- THEY BEGAN TO LOOK TO SAY IS THERE ANYTHING THAT PROTECTS US?

WE HAVE FEDERAL GUIDELINES THAT DO THAT.

WE SAID WE NEED TO PROBABLY STEP UP AND HAVE -- THIS SENDS A MESSAGE THAT WE ARE GOING TO DEFEND -- THERE IS A PLACE BETWEEN WHERE THE EMPLOYER -- IT IS THEIR BUSINESS, THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

AS YOU MENTIONED IN THE BEGINNING, JON, THERE WAS EXTREMES ON THIS.

THERE WERE AMENDMENTS TO SIMPLY BAN ALL MANDATES.

THAT'S NOT WHERE YOU WANT TO GO WITH THIS.

AT THE SAME TIME, THERE HAS TO BE SOME EMPLOYEE RIGHTS, AND SO THIS WAS TRYING TO FIND THAT NARROW SPACE OF DOING THAT.

AND WHAT THIS DOES NOT DO, AND WHERE THE DEBATE, IF YOU FOLLOW THE 14 HOURS OF DEBATE BACK IN NOVEMBER AND DECEMBER, BECAME -- IS THE VACCINE EFFECTIVE?

IS THE VACCINE SAFE?

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE VACCINE.

THIS HAS TO DO WITH WORKERS SAYING, LOOK, I'VE HAD 13 MONTHS TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT I WANT TO GET THE VACCINE.

AND I'VE CHOSEN NOT TO.

AND I WANT TO TAKE WHAT I THINK IS MY RIGHT, WHICH IS MY -- EITHER MY RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL EXEMPTION, MY IMMUNITY EXEMPTION, WE'RE SEEING IMMUNITY NUMBERS, DOCTORS SAY NATURAL IMMUNITY IS IN SOME CASES BETTER THAN THE VACCINE.

THEN WE PUT IN THE PIECES THAT -- TESTING, WHICH IS WHAT THE INDIVIDUAL OSHA MANDATE, NOW STRUCK DOWN BY THE COURTS.

WE'RE TRYING TO THREAD THAT NEEDLE YOU MIGHT SAY OF PROTECTION FOR THE EMPLOYEE.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS IS.

THE STATE OF EMERGENCY PIECE WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE SIMPLE.

THAT IS IT WOULD JUST SAY, LOOK, THERE IS THESE PARTS AROUND MEDICAID, I THINK RYAN BROUGHT UP VACCINES ON YOUNGER CHILDREN, IF A PARENT WANTS TO DO THAT, WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.

WE HAVE PEOPLE NOW WHO ARE ON MEDICAID, AND WE'RE CAPTURING FUNDS, WE WANT TO CONTINUE THAT, AND THAT WAS THE ONLY THING KEEPING US IN THAT STATE OF EMERGENCY SO THAT PART OF THAT BILL IS TO BRING THAT TO AN END.

AND THEN MOVE FORWARD.

>> WE SHOULD POINT OUT, THERE IS A SENATE BILL THAT WOULD DO THE LATTER HALF OF WHAT YOU TALKED ABOUT, ENDING THE -- WE'LL SEE ON THE OTHER SIDE WHICH SURVIVES AND WHICH FALLS BY THE WAYSIDE.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CONCEPT AND THE PROPOSAL THAT MATT LEHMAN JUST DESCRIBED, RYAN HATFIELD.

THE VOTE THIS WEEK WAS 58-37, I BELIEVE IT PASSED.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE BILL?

>> WELL, WE JUST HEARD THE THREE PRIMARY REASONS FOR THE BILL.

AND I'LL WORK BACKWARDS.

THE THIRD REASON PROVIDED WAS THAT THE EMERGENCY ORDERS THAT THE LOITER WANTED MORE INPUT ON THE EMERGENCY ORDERS.

THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN ATTACK ON THIS GOVERNOR IS OUTSTANDING, TO ME, IT'S REALLY CONCERNING THAT THEY HAVE SUCH LITTLE FAITH IN THIS GOVERNOR.

PERHAPS WE NEED TO ADDRESS THAT.

IF THERE ARE SO MANY HOUSE REPUBLICANS THAT HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S ABILITY TO GOVERN, PERHAPS WE NEED TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION.

THE SECOND REASON PROVIDED WAS THAT EMPLOYERS, AND WE NEEDED TO SAVE THESE JOBS.

WE HAVE THE -- THE ORGANIZATION THAT REPRESENTS THE LARGEST NUMBER OF JOBS IN THE STATE, IN THE INDIANA CHAMBER, OPPOSING THIS LEGISLATION, SAYING IT IS A BAD IDEA.

AND THEN FIRST, THE OUTSET OF THE BILL WAS ABOUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S MANDATES.

WELL, WE GOT A RULING ON THAT THIS WEEK.

AND THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED THOSE MANDATES IN LARGE PART, ALL THE OSHA REGULATIONS ARE NOW GONE, DUE TO THE SUPREME COURT RULING.

SO I'M GLAD TO HEAR THAT IF THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THE BILL WE NOW CAN WITH DRAW THE BILL, AND I EXPECT THE LEADER WILL PROBABLY WITH DRAW IT NOW THAT THE SUPREME COURT HAS RULED THAT THOSE MANDATES ARE NO LONGER IN EFFECT.

I THINK THAT FOR ALL THREE REASONS HOOSIERS DESERVE BETTER, AND THE BILL IS NOT THE RIGHT STEP TO PROTECT US.

>> I GUESS THE SUPREME COURT, THOUGH, THEY SAID ANY BUSINESS OVER 100 PEOPLE, WHICH IS WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S RULE APPLIED TO, WOULDN'T BE FORCED TO OFFER MANDATES.

THE DISTINCTION HERE IS ABOUT THE PREROGATIVE OF EMPLOYERS, WHETHER THEY WOULD BE BARRED, THE FLIP SIDE, I GUESS WOULD BE BARRED FROM OFFERING THE TESTING.

KEVIN BRINEGAR, YOU'RE NOT -- YOUR ORGANIZATION IS NOT ACCUSTOMED TO BEING AT ODDS WITH REPUBLICANS IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

EXPLAIN.

TO YOUR MEMBERS WHO MIGHT HAVE MISSED A CHAPTER AND SCRATCHING THEIR HEADS, WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

>> OUR FUNDAMENTAL POSITION IS THAT EMPLOYERS ARE IN THE BEST POSITION TO DETERMINE WHAT IS THE BEST VACCINATION POLICY FOR THEIR EMPLOYEES, THEIR CUSTOMERS, AND THEIR PATIENTS.

AND SO WE DON'T WANT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TELLING US WE MUST MANDATE, AND WE DON'T WANT THE STATE TELLING US THAT THE EMPLOYERS ARE PROHIBITED FROM HAVING VACCINATION REQUIREMENTS.

NOW WE'RE GRATEFUL TO REPRESENTATIVE LEHMAN THAT HIS BILL DIDN'T GO THAT FAR AND THAT AMENDMENTS THAT WOULD HAVE TAKEN IT THAT FAR WERE NOT ADOPTED.

WE FEEL THIS BILL REALLY DISCOURAGES, AND MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR EMPLOYERS TO HAVE VACCINATION MANDATES.

THE FEDERAL OSHA RULE WHICH HAS BEEN HALTED SAID THAT THE EMPLOYEES WHO REFUSE TO GET VACCINATED WOULD HAVE TO BE SUBJECT TO TESTING ONE EVERY WEEK, AND THAT WOULD NOT BE AT THE EXPENSE OF THE EMPLOYER.

THIS BILL SAYS THAT THOSE EMPLOYERS WHO CLAIM AN EXEMPTION, EMPLOYEES, EXCUSE ME, THAT CLAIM AN EXEMPTION HAVE TO BE OFFERED TESTING AT NO EXPENSE TO THEM, WHICH IMPLIES AT THE EMPLOYER'S EXPENSE.

>> AMENDED TO PROVIDE A MECHANISM FOR SEEKING REFUNDS, REIMBURSEMENT.

>> THAT WAS WHAT I TOUCHED ON NOW, THE AMENDMENT WAS ADDED TO ALLOW THE EMPLOYERS TO BE REIMBURSED.

BUT IT WAS CAPPED OFF AT $50.

AND FOR MOST OF THE TESTS THAT ARE OUT THERE, THAT IS JUST A PARTIAL REIMBURSEMENT.

NOT -- PLUS YOU'VE GOT TO GO THROUGH ALL THE RIGAMAROLE OF GATHERING THE DATA, FILING IT, AND WAITING FOR DWD TO REIMBURSE YOU.

>> I THINK I QUOTED THIS WEEK, EXPENSES AS MUCH AS $6 MILLION.

SO WE'RE NOT TALKING POCKET CHANGE.

>> I HAVEN'T USED THAT NUMBER.

BUT I DID HAVE ONE MEMBER THAT DID SOME BACK OF THE ENVELOPE CALCULATIONS AND SAID THAT WITHIN SIX MONTHS IT WOULD COST THEM $1.2 MILLION FOR A COMPANY THAT HAS 700 EMPLOYEES OF WHICH A LITTLE LESS THAN HALF ARE NOT VACCINATED.

THE OTHER THING IS THAT THE -- REPRESENTATIVE LEHMAN REFERENCED FEDERAL EXEMPTIONS, AND PROCEDURES, AND OUR PREFERENCE WOULD HAVE BEEN THAT IF YOU WANT TO PUT AN INDIANA STAKE IN THE GROUND THAT WE REFERENCE -- OUR STATUTE, TITLE 7 OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT, RATHER THAN CREATE OUR OWN SET OF EXEMPTIONS AND NOW EMPLOYERS HAVE TO FOLLOW TWO DIFFERENT SETS OF RULES.

THE OTHER IRONY IN ALL THIS IS THAT THE HUMAN CRY THAT REPRESENTATIVE LEHMAN AND HIS CAUCUS MEMBERS HEARD PREDOMINANTLY CAME FROM HEALTHCARE WORKERS.

AND MANY IN ONE PARTICULAR HEALTH SYSTEM THAT WAS DOING BLANKET DENIALS OF RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS, WHICH IS A QUESTIONABLE PRACTICE, AND MY UNDERSTANDING IS SOME OF THOSE EMPLOYEES ARE PURSUING LITIGATION UNDER TITLE 7.

BUT NOW WE'VE GOT THE SUPREME COURT HAS APPROVED THE CMS RULE.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE HEALTHCARE WORKERS WERE DRIVING THE IMPETUS FOR THIS BILL IN MANY RESPECTS, NOW THEY'RE STILL GOING TO BE SUBJECT TO VACCINATIONS BECAUSE OF THE DECISION ON THE CMS.

>> KEVIN, LET'S GO TO BRIAN TABOR, SINCE HE DEALS WITH HEALTHCARE WORKERS.

AGAIN, YOUR EMPLOYEES FALL INTO A DIFFERENT CATEGORY BECAUSE THE SAME DAY THE SUPREME COURT SAID NO TO THE PART OF THE BROAD BIDEN ADMINISTRATION MANDATE THEY SAID, SURE, THE PART THAT APPLIES TO RECIPIENTS OF MEDICAID AND MEDICARE DOLLARS, THAT'S OKAY.

SO YOUR ORGANIZATIONS ARE IN A BIT OF A PICKLE, THEY'RE GOING TO BE IN KEEPING WITH SOME FEDERAL GUIDANCE AND MAYBE AT ODDS WITH THE STATE.

BUT FEDERAL SUPERSEDES, IS THAT CORRECT, BRIAN?

>> WE THINK IT MIGHT.

BUT WE ARE CONCERNED WITH SOME OF THE PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS, IF WE HAVE CONFLICT BETWEEN A STATE LAW AND WHAT THE FEDERAL RULE FROM THE GOVERNMENT'S HEALTHCARE AGENCY, CMS, WHAT THAT RULE SAYS, AS YOU SAID, UPHELD BY THE SUPREME COURT.

I WANT TO GO BACK AND SAY, THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME HEALTH SYSTEMS THAT TOOK A MORE NARROW APPROACH TO THE EXEMPTION.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT ANY HEALTH SYSTEM OR ANY HOSPITAL WAS USING -- WAS REJECTING EXEMPTION REQUESTS IN A BLANKET FORMAT.

I THINK -- WHAT FEDERAL LAW ALLOWS IS FOR KIND OF A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS.

AND THAT SORT OF CASE-BY-CASE BASIS WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED UNDER THE STATE LEGISLATION.

AND WE THINK THAT IS IS IMPORTANT TO RETAIN THAT ABILITY.

SO FUNDAMENTALLY, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE SUPPORT THE CHAMBER, THE CHAMBER'S HAD GREAT LEADERSHIP.

FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF BUSINESSES AND PRIVATE ENTITIES BEING ABLE TO SET THEIR OWN POLICIES TO PROTECT WORKERS.

I DO WORRY ABOUT THE MESSAGING AND WHAT IT SENDS.

WE DON'T WANT TO DISCOURAGE BUSINESSES, WE NEED MORE VACCINATION TO EMERGE FROM THIS, AND WE DON'T WANT TWO SETS OF EXEMPTIONS.

FOR US, THERE IS AN ADDITIONAL PRACTICAL ELEMENT.

IF WE ARE OUT OF COMPLIANCE WITH WHAT HAS NOW BEEN UPHELD BY THE SUPREME COURT, BECAUSE OF A STATE LAW, WE COULD BE AT RISK OF LOSING ALL MEDICAID AND MEDICARE FUNDING, WHICH FOR MOST HOSPITALS IS THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEIR FUNDING, THAT IS A SCARY PROSPECT.

I'M NOT AN ATTORNEY, I KNOW THERE IS ONE ON THE PANEL.

I DO THINK SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT ULTIMATELY THAT RULE -- THE FEDERAL RULE WOULD TRUMP A STATE LAW, BUT WE ARE CRYING OUT FOR CERTAINTY.

THE PANDEMIC HAS HAD SO MANY UPS AND DOWNS, TWISTS AND TURNS, EVEN WITH VACCINATION POLICY, WE JUST WANT TO PROCEED AND ASK THAT WE NOT HAVE SOMETHING IN STATE LAW THAT OPENS US UP TO MORE LITIGATION, OR MORE CONFUSION.

>> MATT, EVEN THOUGH YOUR BILL PASSED OUT OF THE HOUSE OVERWHELMINGLY, AND IN FACT 55 OTHER CO-SPONSORS, OR CO-AUTHORS BESIDES YOU, THAT DOESN'T MEAN NECESSARILY IT IS GOING TO BECOME LAW, SENATORS SEEM TO HAVE RESERVATIONS, THE GOVERNOR HAS NOT RULED OUT A VETO EVEN.

HE'S WORRIED ABOUT THE IMPACT ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

THIS IS AN AT WILL STATE, HOOSIERS PRIDE THEMSELVES ON NOT HAVING A LOT OF HANDCUFFS ON EMPLOYERS.

HOW DO YOU ANSWER THE CONCERN THIS WOULD BE AFFECT OUR KIND OF STATE LARGE EMPLOYERS WANT TO MOVE TO?

>> JON, I THINK -- WITH THE SENATE, BASED ON SOME OF THE SUPREME COURT RULES.

BUT I THINK THAT -- TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT ON THAT KIND OF DEVELOPMENT.

TWO THINGS I WANT TO BRING OUT.

ONE IS I THINK THE COMMENT WAS MADE THAT WE'RE DISCOURAGING THE VACCINE.

I THINK IF WE'RE HINGING OUR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ON IT -- A VACCINE OR NOT, PEOPLE LOOKING FOR JOBS AREN'T NECESSARILY LOOKING FOR WHERE I CAN GET IT OR NOT.

WE'RE 13 MONTHS INTO THE VACCINE, IF IT HAS TAKEN YOU 13 MONTHS TO DECIDE, I THINK YOU'VE ALREADY MADE THAT DECISION.

RIGHT NOW I THINK WHAT I'M LOOKING AT, FROM AN ECONOMIC STANDPOINT IS WE HAVE EMPLOYMENT ISSUES PRIOR TO THIS.

I HAD -- YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LIMITATIONS -- I HAD A LOCAL RESTAURANT, IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PEOPLE BEING OUT ON COVID.

IT IS JUST THERE IS NOT A WORKFORCE OUT THERE.

AND SO I GUESS THE -- THIS ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT WORKFORCE, THIS BALANCE BETWEEN -- WE HEARD TESTIMONY 19 # 0 NURSES ON 1003, MAYBE 1900 NURSES SHORT, AND WE SEE HEALTHCARE SYSTEMS FIRING NURSES.

TRYING TO PAL FROM A PURE ECONOMIC STANDPOINT, HOW ARE WE LETTING PEOPLE OFF, FIRING PEOPLE OVER A STANDARD, OF THE EMPLOYER, WHILE COMING DOWN HERE AND SAYING NOW WE'RE SHORT OF STAFF.

THAT'S WHY I'M TRYING TO FIND THAT BALANCE OF SAYING FROM A PURE ECONOMIC STANDPOINT, WHY ARE YOU BAILING YOUR STAFF.

>> BRIAN, IS THIS ECONOMIC, OR IS THAT MISSING THE MARK?

>> I THINK YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE TESTIMONY WE HEARD ON THIS BILL FROM A DOCTOR WHO SAID HOSPITALS AND BUSINESS HAD ALREADY MADE THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS OF LETTING THOSE FOLKS GO, WHO REFUSE TO GET.

I THINK THAT IS WHERE THE CHAMBER AND THE HOSPITAL ASSOCIATION ARE COMING IN.

THESE BUSINESSES ARE IN THE BEST POSITION TO DECIDE WHAT THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS IS FOR THEM.

THEY'VE MADE THOSE DECISIONS, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT VERY MANY EMPLOYERS HERE, THIS BILL IS NAMELY AIMED AT THE HOSPITAL ASSOCIATION.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE.

THEY'RE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE.

AND I HOPE THAT AT LEAST THOSE PORTIONS OF IT WILL COME OUT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH ALL OF YOU FOR SHARING YOUR INSIGHTS, IT IS GOOD TO HAVE A RATIONALE TIME NOW FOR OUR WEEKLY CONVERSATION WITH INDIANA LAWMAKERS NEWS ANALYST ED FEIGENBAUM.

WHAT STOOD OUT TO YOU ABOUT THE ROUNDTABLE?

>> WELL, THE ROUNDTABLE WAS QUITE INFORM ACTIVE, I THINK A LOT MORE INFORMATIVE AND ACCURATE THAN A LOT OF THE DEBATE THAT WE SAW ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE DURING THE THIRD READING DEBATE.

ONE THING THAT STRUCK ME FROM THE DEBATE ON THE FLOOR, A LOT OF MISINFORMATION BOTH ABOUT THE VACCINES, THE VACCINATION POLICIES, THE EFFICACY OF THINGS AND THE SUPREME COURT RULING, I THINK THAT EVERYBODY'S MINDS WERE MADE UP GOING INTO THAT DEBATE SO IT REALLY DIDN'T MATTER IN TERMS OF THE VOTE.

BUT I THINK IN TERMS OF HOW THE PUBLIC VIEWED THINGS, IT WAS A LITTLE BIT SKETCHY AT TIMES.

I THINK WHAT ALSO STRUCK ME ABOUT THAT DEBATE WAS THE AMENDMENTS THAT DIDN'T GET OFFERED.

I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF DISCUSSION WITHIN THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS ABOUT JUST WHAT WAS GOING TO BE OKAY TO BRING TO THE FLOOR, AND SOME OF THE AMENDMENTS DEALT WITH UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION, CRIMINALIZATION, WITH EXTENSION OF THE NO VACCINE MANDATES, THAT WERE NOT OFFERED WERE INDICATIVE OF HOW SPLIT CAUCUS WAS ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES.

>> IF THE CAUCUS IS SPLIT, CERTAINLY THE REPUBLICANS AND THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AS A WHOLE WERE SPLIT.

WE MENTIONED THIS MAY HAVE TOUGHER GOING IN THE SENATE.

HOW DOES THIS END UP?

>> I THINK THAT THAT CAME ACROSS IN THE ROUNDTABLE.

AND THE SENATE'S ALREADY PASSED THE FIRST HALF OF THE BILL.

AND THERE WERE TWO DIFFERENT AMENDMENTS IN THE HOUSE THAT WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING.

ONE SAID LET'S JUST DUMP THE AMENDMENTS THAT WOULD STOP THE EMERGENCY.

AND THEN THE OTHER SAID LET'S KEEP THE EMERGENCY PROVISIONS LIKE THE SENATE DID AND DUMP EVERYTHING ELSE THAT DEALT WITH THE VACCINE MANDATE.

I THINK THE SENATE IS GOING TO BE A LOT MORE TEMPERED AND TEMPERATE ABOUT THIS.

I THINK THIS IS GOING TO END UP BEING A LOT LESS BROAD THAN THE HOUSE VERSION WHEN ALL THINGS ARE SAID AND DONE AND THE GOVERNOR ENTERS THE DEBATE.

>> IF THIS VERSION SHOWED UP ON THE GOVERNOR'S DESK, WOULD HE VETO IT?

>> I'M NOT SURE THAT HE WOULD VETO IT.

I KNOW THAT HE WOULDN'T BE VERY HAPPY ABOUT IT.

IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT HE WOULD ALLOW TO BECOME LAW WITHOUT A SIGNATURE UNDERSTANDING THAT A VETO COULD BE OVERRIDDEN WITH JUST THE SIMPLE MAJORITY.

HE ALSO HAS TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE GRASSROOTS, THE PEOPLE OF INDIANA WHO DO STAND STRONG FOR INDIVIDUAL LIBERTIES AND DON'T LIKE MANDATES IN GENERAL.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME THE OPTICS ARE A LITTLE BIT DIFFICULT.

WE SAW THIS DEBATE HAPPEN DURING A WEEK WITH SOME RECORDS THAT WERE SET FOR HOSPITALIZATION NUMBERS, AND SOME NEAR RECORDS FOR TOTAL NUMBERS OF CASES, IT IS JUST A REAL TOUGH ISSUE TO DEBATE WHEN YOU'VE GOT THAT GOING ON IN REALITY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

ED, THANKS AS ALWAYS FOR YOUR INSIGHT.

MUCH APPRECIATED.

>> WHO SHOULD HAVE THE BIGGEST SAY IN WHAT HOOSIER SCHOOL CHILDREN ARE TAUGHT, PARENTS, TEACHERS, SCHOOL BOARDS OR THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON THE NEXT INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

YOU CAN ACCESS LIVE STREAM COVERAGE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON THE INTERNET AS WELL.

AND REMEMBER, YOU CAN GET OUR SHOW ON DEMAND FROM XFINITY.

WELL, THAT CONCLUDES ANOTHER EDITION OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

ON BEHALF OF WFYI, I THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, I INVITE YOU TO VISIT WFYI.ORG FOR MORE.