>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, MARCH OF 2020 - THAT'S WHEN COVID-19 SWEPT INTO OUR STATE.

WE LOOK BACK AT THE DAMAGE THE PANDEMIC HAS WREAKED ON OUR SOCIETY AND PUBLIC HEALTH INFRASTRUCTURE FOUR YEARS SINCE THE FIRST DIAGNOSIS.

>> Bird: THEY'VE NEVER BEEN ADEQUATELY RESOURCED, THEY'VE NEVER BEEN ADEQUATELY STAFFED, AND AS A RESULT OF COVID, WE'VE HAD MANY PROFESSIONALS, IN FACT, RETIRE AND LEAVE.

>> Lou: AND, AN UPDATE FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. AS A RIO GRANDE WATER RIGHTS CASE REACHES AMERICA'S HIGHEST COURT.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

>> Lou: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO.

THE WATERS OF THE RIO GRANDE TOUCHED GROUND ON OUR NATION'S CAPITAL THIS WEEK.

WEDNESDAY, SUPREME COURT JUSTICES HEARD ARGUMENTS FROM ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING NEW MEXICO, TEXAS AND COLORADO AS THE THREE STATES PRESENTED A PLAN THAT WOULD RESOLVE A DECADE-OLD WATER RIGHTS CASE.

IN LESS THAN 20 MINUTES, I'LL CHECK IN WITH SOURCE NEW MEXICO REPORTER DANIELLE PROKOP FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. TO ASK HOW THE HIGH COURT'S DECISION WILL IMPACT HOW WE SHARE WATER FROM THE LOWER RIO GRANDE FOR YEARS TO COME.

A NEW STUDY FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO REPORTS EIGHT OUT OF TEN SURVEYED OIL AND GAS WORKERS KNOW SOMEONE WHO'S HAD AN ACCIDENT ON THE JOB, AND MORE THAN A QUARTER HAVE KNOWN SOMEONE WHO DIED WORKING.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY'S SHOW, CORRESPONDENT ELIZABETH MILLER SITS DOWN WITH DR. GABRIEL SANCHEZ, A STUDY AUTHOR AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AT UNM'S CENTER FOR SOCIAL POLICY, TO ASK HOW THE SECTOR'S WORKERS MIGHT FIND NEW JOBS IN A CLEAN ENERGY FUTURE.

BUT WE'LL SPEND MUCH OF TONIGHT'S SHOW LOOKING BACK ON THE FOUR YEARS SINCE THE FIRST COVID-19 DIAGNOSIS IN NEW MEXICO.

THAT WAS ON MARCH 11TH, 2020.

PUBLIC DEFENDER JENNIFER BURRILL WAS ONE OF THE FIRST NEW MEXICANS TO RAISE HER HAND PUBLICLY AND SAY THAT SHE'D TESTED POSITIVE FOR WHAT WE USED TO CALL THE NOVEL CORONAVIRUS.

THE STATE SAW MORE THAN 140,000 CASES BY THE END OF THAT YEAR.

JUMP AHEAD TO 2024 AND THAT NUMBER HAS EXPLODED TO MORE THAN 720,000, ACCORDING TO THE MOST RECENT FIGURES FROM THE NEW MEXICO DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH.

IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS, THE DISEASE HAS KILLED MORE THAN 9,000 NEW MEXICANS AND MORE THAN 1.1-MILLION AMERICANS NATIONALLY, ACCORDING TO THE CDC.

THE NUMBERS ARE STAGGERING.

FORTUNATELY, CONFIRMED CASES ARE DOWN NATIONWIDE, BUT PEOPLE ARE STILL GETTING COVID.

JUST LAST WEEK, MORE THAN 60 NEW MEXICANS WERE ADMITTED TO A HOSPITAL WITH THE ILLNESS.

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR SITS DOWN WITH JENNIFER BURRILL AND MICHAEL BIRD, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION, TO TAKE STOCK OF OUR STATE AND COUNTRY'S HANDLING OF THE PANDEMIC AND WHERE WE ARE NOW.

>> Jeff: JEN BURRILL AND MICHAEL BIRD, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME ON NEW MEXICO In FOCUS THIS WEEK.

LOU JUST LAYED OUT SOME OF THE NUMBERS, DATES AND BROAD STROKES OF THE COVID PANDEMIC WHICH HIT OUR STATE IN MARCH OF 2020.

HE ALSO REMINDED US THAT JEN WAS ONE OF, IF NOT THE FIRST PEOPLE TO RAISE HER HAND PUBLICLY AND SAY SHE'D TESTED POSITIVE FOR THE VIRUS.

SHE ACTUAL DID THAT IN AN INTERVIEW WITH ME AT THE SANTA FE REPORTER, AND SHE LISTED SEVERAL CONCERNS ABOUT THE INTEGRITY AND STRENGTH OF OUR HEALTH SYSTEMS EVEN BACK THEN.

HOW SHE COULDN'T GET TESTED, EVEN, FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS SICK.

JEN, WE'LL GET TO SOME OF THE PARTICULARS OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM WHERE YOU WORK IN A BIT, BUT BROADLY SPEAKING, WHEN YOU THINK BACK FOUR YEARS AGO, HOW HAS OUR SOCIETY HANDLED ALL OF THIS IN TERMS OF HOW WE TREAT ONE ANOTHER?

>> Burrill: NOT WELL.

NOT WELL AT ALL.

YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT IT NOW, WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH PEOPLE WITH LONG COVID, WE'RE NOT RECOGNIZING THE THREAT THAT THAT IS TO OUR WORKFORCE, WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH IT SPREADING ANYMORE BECAUSE WE'RE SAYING THERE'S A VACCINE, SO WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL.

AND WE'VE SEEN, AND OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN SPEAK MORE TO THIS, BUT THE MORE TIMES THAT PEOPLE HAVE COVID, EVEN IF THEY DON'T HAVE EXTREME SYMPTOMS, THE HARDER IT IS ON THEIR BODY AND THE LIKELIHOOD THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE LONG COVID.

SO WE'RE NOT TAKING ANY OF THAT SERIOUSLY.

WE ALSO SAW DURING THE PANDEMIC THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED, WE DIDN'T REALLY CARE ABOUT THEM.

THEY WEREN'T BEING TESTED FOR A LONG TIME, AS YOU'RE AWARE.

THEY WEREN'T RECEIVING TREATMENT.

THEY WEREN'T GETTING MASKS.

THEY WEREN'T BEING ISOLATED.

NONE OF THAT WAS HAPPENING.

SO WE JUST GAVE A PUBLIC FACING FRONT IN TERMS OF OUR CARING ABOUT IT, BUT WE REALLY HAVEN'T EVEN DELVED BACK TO LOOK AT WHAT WE COULD DO BETTER NEXT TIME.

>> Jeff: MICHAEL, IF YOU HAD TO GIVE US A GRADE AS A SPECIES FOR HOW WE DEALT WITH AND HANDLED ALL OF THIS, WHAT WOULD THAT BE?

>> Bird: WELL, CLEARLY IT WOULD BE AN F. YOU KNOW, IN THIS COUNTRY, IT WOULD BE AN F. GLOBALLY, I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN SOME COUNTRIES THAT RESPONDED IN A MORE AFFIRMATIVE POSITIVE WAY AND MANAGED IT MUCH BETTER THAN WE DID HERE.

I THINK THE SAD PART ABOUT ALL OF THIS IS THAT WE ALREADY, AND I'LL JUST REFERENCE -- I'M NOT SELLING HER BOOK, BUT LAURIE GARRETT'S BOOK, WHICH WAS WRITTEN IN 2000, 'THE TRAIL OF TRUST AND THE COMING PLAGUE,' AT THAT POINT IN TIME SHE WAS ALREADY WRITING ABOUT THE RISK THAT WAS ALREADY OUT THERE AND THE POTENTIAL THIS HAD.

SO FAST FORWARD AND IT PLAYED OUT IN MANY WAYS JUST EXACTLY AS SHE SAID IT WOULD.

SO IT'S NOT LIKE WE DIDN'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, NATIONAL AUTHORS AND OTHER PEOPLE INVOLVED AND ENGAGED IN PUBLIC HEALTH, YOU KNOW, RAISING FLAGS AND TRYING TO START CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE RISKS, BUT WE JUST FAILED TO LISTEN.

>> Jeff: LET'S STAY ON THAT FOR JUST A MINUTE, AND I WANT TO STAY WITH YOU FOR JUST A MOMENT, TOO.

I'VE TALKED TO A LOT OF PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS WHO SORT OF GIVE ME THIS PICTURE THAT WE DID HAVE A CHANCE, BOTH BEFORE THE VIRUS ARRIVED AND AFTER IT ARRIVED, TO REALLY KIND OF TAKE A CHUNK OUT OF THE DEVASTATION THAT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO WREAK, RIGHT, BUT AS A RESULT OF US NOT HAVING A NATIONAL STRATEGY, THE SITUATION THAT WE'VE GOT NOW IS THAT COVID IS ENDEMIC.

IS THAT AN ACCURATE ANALYSIS?

AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, THAT THIS VIRUS IS NOW ENDEMIC TO OUR SOCIETY, FROM A PUBLIC HEALTH PERSPECTIVE?

>> Bird: WELL, I THINK THAT WE CLEARLY WILL BE DEALING WITH THE EPIDEMIC AND THE RAMIFICATIONS ACROSS ALL OF OUR SOCIETY, BE IT THE ECONOMICS, BE IT PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEMS, BE IT MEDICAL CARE.

ALL OF OUR MAJOR INSTITUTIONS HAVE BEEN IMPACTED AND CONTINUE TO BE IMPACTED BY COVID, AND SO THIS IS GOING TO BE -- THIS IS REALLY GOING TO BE A LONG-TERM -- THERE NEEDS TO BE A LONG-TERM COMMITMENT, AND IT'S GOING TO BE, I THINK, A LONG-TERM RECOVERY.

>> Jeff: AND IN TERMS OF IT BEING ENDEMIC, IT ALSO JUST MEANS THAT THE VIRUS IS HERE AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO CATCH IT AND GET SICK, RIGHT?

>> Bird: YES, YES.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

I WANT TO TALK SOME ABOUT HOW THIS PANDEMIC HAS IMPACTED SOME OF OUR TANGIBLE AND CONCRETE SYSTEMS.

JEN, YOU'RE A PUBLIC DEFENDER.

OF COURSE THAT MEANS THAT YOU WORK IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, AND I'D LIKE TO GIVE YOU A FEW MOMENTS TO TALK ABOUT THE WAYS THAT SYSTEM CHANGED RAPIDLY AND MASSIVELY, LIKE IN THE MOMENT IN 2020, AND WHAT SOME OF THE RIPPLES HAVE BEEN SINCE THEN.

>> Burrill: YES.

SO WHEN I TESTED POSITIVE, I HAD JUST BEEN AT A MEETING ON HOW TO ADDRESS IT WITH THE JUDGES, LAW ENFORCEMENT, ALL OF THAT, AND WE HAD ALL BEEN CRAMMED INTO A ROOM, AND THEN I GET HOME AND FIND OUT I'M POSITIVE, RIGHT.

BECAUSE YOU COULDN'T NOT GO TO WORK, RIGHT, IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW.

>> Jeff: LATER ON WE CAME TO CALL THOSE SUPER SPREADERS, RIGHT?

>> Burrill: RIGHT, YEAH.

SO, YOU KNOW, THRILLED ABOUT THAT.

BUT ON THE 23rd OF MARCH, THEY SHUT DOWN THE COURTHOUSES BECAUSE OF THAT, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.

SO IF WE HAVE A LAWYER COMING IN AND THEN THEY HAVE CONTACT WITH AN INMATE THAT GOES BACK TO THE JAIL, I MEAN, YOU CAN JUST KIND OF DO THE CHAIN OF EVENTS.

SO THEY TRIED TO START IMPLEMENTING VIDEO COURT SO AT LEAST SOME OF THE HEARINGS COULD CONTINUE.

THERE WAS EVEN EARLY ON -- ONE OF MY CASES WAS ONE OF THE FIRST ONES IN THE FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT WHERE THERE WAS EVIDENCE PRESENTED BY WITNESSES BY VIDEO, WHICH WE OBJECTED TO BECAUSE WE HAVE THE RIGHT OF CONFRONTATION AND TO BE ABLE TO SEE WHO IS THE ROOM WITH THEM, TO SEE HOW THEY'RE TESTIFYING.

IT WAS A VERY STRANGE SITUATION, BECAUSE ONE OF THE WITNESSES WAS DEAF, AND SO THE SYSTEM THEY WERE USING AT THE TIME, WHOEVER SPOKE WAS THE LARGE SCREEN.

AND SO IF SOMEBODY COUGHED, THEY WERE THE LARGE SCREEN AND THE TRANSLATOR COULDN'T SEE WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND WITNESS COULDN'T SEE THE TRANSLATOR, BECAUSE ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY WERE LIKE A ONE-INCH SQUARE.

AND SO THOSE KIND OF DYNAMICS WERE KIND OF FLESHED OUT.

THEY MOVED TO A MORE STABLE SYSTEM.

BUT IT TOOK A WHILE FOR THE JUDGES TO LEARN HOW TO USE IT.

WE'RE STILL SEEING, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE INDIGENT AND DON'T REALLY HAVE ACCESS TO TECHNOLOGY TRYING TO ACCESS THESE SYSTEMS, AND WE STILL HAVE JUDGES WHO ARE SAYING, WELL, IF YOU'RE NOT ON, WE'RE ISSUING A BENCH WARRANT, WHEN IT MAY JUST BE A TECHNOLOGY ISSUE.

AND SO WE'RE SEEING A LOT MORE PEOPLE ARRESTED BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE COURT WHEN BEFORE THEY COULD WALK IN THE FRONT DOOR.

NOW THEY HAVE TO HAVE ACCESS TO ELECTRICITY TO CHARGE THEIR DEVICE, THEY HAVE TO ACTUALLY HAVE A DEVICE, AND THEY HAVE TO HAVE SERVICE.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE A CARD THAT THEY RUN MINUTES ON, BUT IF COURT LASTS TWO HOURS, THEIR MINUTES RUN OUT AND THEN THEY'RE ISSUED A BENCH WARRANT BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T THERE WHEN THEIR CASE WAS CALLED.

AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF REALLY PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN FLESHED OUT IN TERMS OF HOW IT'S IMPACTING PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING THROUGH THE SYSTEM.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOW DOING CIVIL JURY TRIALS BY VIDEO IN TERMS OF THE JURY SELECTION, WHICH I THINK IS VERY SUSPECT, AND I'M HOPING THAT IT DOESN'T MOVE INTO THE CRIMINAL SYSTEM, BECAUSE TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO PAY ATTENDS IN COURT IS HARD ENOUGH WHEN THEY'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THEIR DOG OR JUST GETTING UP AND GOING TO THE BATHROOM.

AND PART OF THE JURY SYSTEM IS THAT THEY'RE THERE TO TAKE IN EVERY PIECE OF EVIDENCE AND TO JUDGE THE CREDIBILITY OF THE WITNESSES, AND THAT'S REALLY HARD TO DO WHEN THEY'RE ON A ONE-INCH LITTLE PICTURE ON YOUR COMPUTER SCREEN.

AND SO I THINK IT'S KIND OF GOING IN THE WRONG WAY.

PRIVATE ATTORNEYS ARE VERY HAPPY WITH NOT HAVING TO TRAVEL AS MUCH.

WE'RE A VERY RURAL STATE, SO THEY TAKE CASES IN A LOT OF JURISDICTIONS.

AND SO IF IT'S JUST GOING TO BE A FIVE-MINUTE HEARING AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO DRIVE SIX HOURS, THEY'RE VERY HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

SO THERE ARE SOME BENEFITS, BUT THERE'S ALSO SOME DRAWBACKS IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR CLIENT, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T REALLY TALK TO THEM WHEN THEY'RE IN JAIL, APPEARING IN A ROOM OF 30 PEOPLE, AND YOU'RE NOT THERE NEXT TO THEM TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE.

THOSE KIND OF ISSUES ARE STILL BEING DEALT WITH.

>> Jeff: MICHAEL, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER SORT OF TANGIBLE OR CONCRETE SYSTEMS THAT HAVE BEEN IMPACTED BY ALL OF THIS, AND HOW HAS THAT PLAYED OUT?

>> Bird: WELL, IF I MIGHT, I'D LIKE TO SORT OF SHARE A QUOTE WITH YOU FROM AN ARTICLE, JUST BRIEFLY, TITLED 'HOW AMERICA LOST THE COVID WAR,' BECAUSE THIS PROVIDES A CONTEXT.

AND I'LL QUOTE IT: "IT IS BEST TO THINK OF COVID AS A WAR, THE MOST EXPANSIVE GLOBAL STRUGGLE SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

THE U.S.

FOUGHT THE COVID WAR WITHOUT AN ARMY OR A BATTLE PLAN.

WE MET A 21st CENTURY GLOBAL EMERGENCY WITH STRUCTURES FUNDAMENTALLY DESIGNED FOR 19th CENTURY PROBLEMS, AND IT SHOWED.

OUR SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE WAS UNSURPASSED.

THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AND ORGANIZATIONS MADE HEARTRENDING LIFESAVING EFFORTS.

AMERICANS SPENT MORE PUBLIC MONEY ON THE CRISIS THAN ANYONE.

YET THE U.S.

SUFFERED MANY MORE CASUALTIES THAN ANY OTHER AFFLUENT COUNTRY, DESPITE HAVING THE BEST ACCESS TO REMARKABLE VACCINES."

I'M SHARING THAT BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE NATIONAL CONTEXT AND GLOBAL CONTEXT AS IT RELATES TO, I THINK, HOW IT'S IMPACTED, YOU KNOW, THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM.

TO THIS DAY, WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT, FIRST OF ALL, PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEMS HAVE NEVER BEEN, BE THEY NATIONAL PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEMS, BE THEY STATE GOVERNMENT, BE THEY COUNTY OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THEY'VE NEVER BEEN ADEQUATELY RESOURCED, THEY'VE NEVER BEEN ADEQUATELY STAFFED, AND AS A RESULT OF COVID, WE'VE HAD MANY PROFESSIONALS, IN FACT, RETIRE AND LEAVE THOSE POSITIONS.

SO WE HAVE A STRUCTURE THAT HAS BEEN DEPLETED, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE EXPECTING AND HOPING WILL DEAL WITH ANY OTHER COMPLICATIONS THAT ARE AS A RESULT OF COVID.

AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER THREATS OUT THERE IN TERMS OF OTHER POTENTIAL INFECTIOUS DISEASES.

>> Jeff: IT SORT OF FEELS LIKE -- AND JEN, I'LL LET YOU PROCEED IN JUST A SECOND, BUT IT SORT OF FEELS LIKE, AT LEAST WHERE THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM IS CONCERNED, THAT WHEN COVID HIT, IT WAS LIKE PLACING A 50-POUND DUMBBELL ON A BALSAM WOOD STRUCTURE.

YES?

>> Bird: YES, EXACTLY.

AND I THINK THE OTHER PART OF THIS IS THAT FOR THOSE COMMUNITIES, POORER COMMUNITIES, COMMUNITIES OF COLOR IN NEW MEXICO, HISPANIC, LATINO, MEXICAN AND AMERICAN INDIAN, THOSE COMMUNITIES AND RURAL COMMUNITIES, PARTICULARLY BEING AT EVEN HIGHER RISK, THE STRUCTURES THAT WOULD SUPPORT THEM IN RESPONDING TO COVID AND GETTING WHAT THEY NEEDED IN TERMS OF EDUCATION, TREATMENT AND VACCINES, AND EVERYTHING ELSE, THOSE SYSTEMS IN SOME CASES NEVER EXISTED AND/OR WERE SEVERELY CHALLENGED.

>> Jeff: JEN, YOU HAD A THOUGHT.

>> Burrill: I WAS JUST GOING TO JUMP IN ON WHAT HE WAS SAYING IN TERMS OF DEPLETING THE RESOURCES, BECAUSE WE DO A LOT OF CASES OF COMPETENCY, AND SO AN ORDER FOR AN EVALUATION IS USUALLY DONE.

IN THE FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT, THERE'S ONLY ONE EVALUATOR WHO WILL DO THEM ANYMORE, ONE, FOR THREE COUNTIES, AND SHE WILL NOT GO INTO THE JAILS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, COVID, RIGHT, AND WHAT'S NOT BEING ADDRESSED.

SHE'S CONCERNED ABOUT HER HEALTH ISSUES, WHICH I DON'T BLAME HER.

BUT WE'RE SEEING IT DEGRADE EVEN FURTHER.

HOW DO WE GET A VALID EVALUATION IF THEY'RE NOT THERE WITH THEM, NOT PERFORMING THE TESTING IN PERSON.

AND SO THE REALITY IS THAT WE'RE NOT WILLING TO INVEST IN THOSE POSITIONS, SO NOBODY NEW IS WILLING TO COME IN AND TAKE THOSE KIND OF RISKS.

AND EVERYBODY ELSE HAS EITHER RETIRED OR SAID, I'M ONLY GOING TO DO THIS WITH SEVERE LIMITATIONS.

>> Jeff: WE'VE GOT A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT AND WE WOULD BE REMISS IN HAVING THIS CONVERSATION WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT THE WHO.

WE'VE SCRATCHED AT THIS A LITTLE BIT FROM BOTH OF YOUR PERSPECTIVES IN TERMS OF WHICH COMMUNITIES AND POPULATIONS BORE THIS THE WORST, BUT WHO DID BEAR THIS THE WORST, MICHAEL, AND WHY?

>> Bird: WELL, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, IT'S ALWAYS THE POOR AND THE MARGINALIZED AND COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

I MEAN, IT'S POVERTY THAT UNDERLIES MUCH OF THIS.

FOR NATIVE COMMUNITIES, I THINK CLEARLY IF YOU LOOK AT THE FUNDING OF THE INDIAN HEALTH SERVICE, WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN ADEQUATE, 50 PERCENT AT THE LEVEL OF NEED, YOU LOOK AT RESERVATIONS HERE IN NEW MEXICO WHO FINALLY THERE'S BEING SOME ATTENTION FOCUSED ON INFRASTRUCTURE AND INTERNET CONNECTIVITY, WATER SYSTEMS, BUT, YOU KNOW, FOREVER, PARTICULARLY IN RURAL RESERVATION AREAS AND RURAL NEW MEXICO COMMUNITIES, THEY'VE NOT HAD ACCESS TO RUNNING WATER, THEY'VE NOT HAD ACCESS TO ELECTRICITY, NO INTERNET CONNECTIVITY.

SO, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY LEFT OUT THERE, HUNG OUT TO DRY.

AND THERE'S BEEN NO REAL COMMITMENT IN SPITE OF ALL OF THE TREATIES AND THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS THAT PRESIDENTS HAVE ISSUED TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES OF POVERTY AND NEGLECT, NOT THAT MUCH HAS TAKEN -- NOT THAT MUCH HAS BEEN DONE TO ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES.

SO YOU HAVE THOSE POPULATIONS WHO ARE AT GREATER RISK, ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AND CONTINUE TO BE.

I MEAN, I LOVE NEW MEXICO, AND WE TALK ABOUT BEING MULTICULTURAL AND EVERYBODY'S KUMBAYA, BUT THERE'S STILL SOME VERY REAL ISSUES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ADDRESSED, CONVENIENTLY, FOR WHATEVER REASONS, AND I REALLY THINK -- I THINK, YOU KNOW, IF WE REALLY BELIEVE IN THE VALUE OF HUMAN BEINGS, IF WE REALLY BELIEVE IN A RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY THAT SAYS, I AM MY BROTHER'S KEEPER, THEN WE NEED TO ACT ON THAT.

AND I HEAR A LOT OF RHETORIC, BUT I SEE A LOT LESS ACTION.

>> Jeff: JEN, I'VE GOT ABOUT 30 SECONDS FOR YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON WHAT MICHAEL SAID.

DOES SOME OF THIS FEEL INTENTIONAL?

>> Burrill: I THINK IT DOES.

I THINK IT'S ALSO BASED ON, YOU KNOW, JUST MAKING SURE THE ECONOMY'S FORWARD AND FORGETTING ABOUT THE HUMANITY OF THE PEOPLE.

WE HAD A PERSON IN OUR OFFICE -- WE HAVE SEVERAL TRIBAL MEMBERS FROM OUR OFFICE, AND WHEN THEY WERE LOCKED DOWN, THEY DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE INTERNET.

THAT'S THE FIRST THING THEY GOT THEM BEFORE THEY GOT THEM RUNNING WATER.

RUNNING WATER WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, HELPED PROTECT THEM FROM VIRUSES MORE THAN THE INTERNET.

BUT WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THEY COULD WORK BEFORE THEY COULD BE HEALTHY.

>> Jeff: THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE'VE GOT FOR THIS SEGMENT.

I REALLY APPRECIATE BOTH OF YOU HELPING US TO TAKE STOCK OF THESE LAST FOUR YEARS.

WE'LL MEET BACK HERE IN A BIT TO TALK ABOUT LONG COVID AND SOME OF THE OTHER LASTING IMPACTS THIS PANDEMIC HAS HAD ON OUR STATE.

>> Dr. Sanchez: ESSENTIALLY WE WANT TO KNOW A FEW THINGS.

ONE IS, WHAT ARE THE WORKING CONDITIONS WITHIN THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS SEGMENT OF THE WORKFORCE, AND ALSO THINKING BIGGER PICTURE AS WE'RE GOING TO TRANSITION AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS.

YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE QUESTIONS WE WANTED TO FIND OUT ARE, ARE THESE WORKERS INTERESTED IN TRANSITIONING TO CLEAN ENERGY JOBS OR OTHER INDUSTRIES, WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE IN TERMS OF THEIR WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT TRAINING NEEDS.

A LOT OF REALLY IN-DEPTH INSIGHTS TO TRY TO INFORM WORKFORCE SOLUTIONS ON SOME OF THE PLANS MOVING FORWARDS.

>> Lou: THAT INTERVIEW WITH DR. GABRIEL SANCHEZ WILL AIR IN LESS THAN TEN MINUTES.

A DECADE-LONG, THREE-STATE LEGAL BATTLE OVER WATER RIGHTS COULD CONCLUDE THIS SUMMER AS THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HEARD ARGUMENTS THIS WEEK FROM ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING NEW MEXICO, COLORADO AND TEXAS.

THE STATES PRESENTED A PLAN THAT WOULD SPLIT THE RIO GRANDE'S WATER BELOW THE ELEPHANT BUTTE RESERVOIR.

NEW MEXICO WOULD RECEIVE 57 PERCENT, AND THE OTHER 43 PERCENT WOULD GO TO TEXAS.

THE PLAN WAS ANNOUNCED IN LATE 2022, BUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PUSHED BACK THE FOLLOWING YEAR.

FEDERAL OFFICIALS SAY THE PROPOSED SOLUTION WOULD VIOLATE THE 1938 RIO GRANDE COMPACT, AN 86-YEAR-OLD AGREEMENT THAT FIRST SPLIT RIGHTS TO RIO GRANDE WATER BETWEEN THE THREE STATES.

IT'S A COMPLEX CASE AND ONE THAT SOURCE NEW MEXICO'S DANIELLE PROKOP HAS BEEN UNTANGLING FOR THE PAST FEW YEARS.

DANIELLE JOINS ME VIRTUALLY FROM OUR NATION'S CAPITOL TO BREAK DOWN HOW THE SUPREME COURT COULD WRITE THE LAST CHAPTER IN THIS WATER RIGHTS SAGA.

HI, DANIELLE.

FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T BEEN FOLLOWING THE CASE CLOSELY, CAN YOU BREAK DOWN EXACTLY WHAT THIS CASE IS ABOUT?

>> Prokop: ABSOLUTELY.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

SO THE CASE HAS EVOLVED OVER ITS TEN-YEAR RUN IN THE SUPREME COURT.

ORIGINALLY TEXAS TOOK NEW MEXICO TO COURT OVER GROUNDWATER PUMPING BELOW ELEPHANT BUTTE RESERVOIR SAYING THAT WHEN GROUNDWATER IS PUMPED, IT IS TAKEN OUT OF THE RIVER EVEN THOUGH IT'S OWED TO TEXAS.

SO THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL CASE.

IT THEN CHANGED A LITTLE BIT AS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT JOINED IT IN 2018.

THEY JOINED AS A PARTY, AS AN INTERVENER, UNANIMOUSLY GRANTED BY THE SUPREME COURT, AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE END UP TODAY, WHERE NOW THE STATES ARE ON THE SAME SIDE PROPOSING A DEAL TO END THE DISPUTE OVER RIO GRANDE WATER BETWEEN TEXAS AND NEW MEXICO, BUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS OBJECTING TO THAT DEAL.

THOSE WERE THE ORAL ARGUMENTS THAT WE HEARD YESTERDAY, WEDNESDAY, IN THE SUPREME COURT.

>> Lou: OKAY, ABOUT THOSE ORAL ARGUMENT, I KNOW THAT YOU WERE IN THE COURTROOM.

WHAT EXACTLY WERE THOSE SPECIFIC ARGUMENTS, BOTH FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE COALITION OF STATES?

>> Prokop: ABSOLUTELY.

SO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WENT FIRST AND WE HEARD FROM ASSISTANT SOLICITOR GENERAL FREDERICK LIU WHO PRESENTED THE CASE.

HE ARGUED THAT THE DEAL SHOULD BE REJECTED BECAUSE IT PROPOSES SOMETHING THAT IS OBJECTIONABLE TO THE COMPACT AND TO THE OPERATION OF THE RIO GRANDE PROJECT.

THAT'S THAT NETWORK OF FEDERAL DAMS, CANALS, DRAINS, DITCHES, ALL FROM SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO EXTENDING INTO TEXAS.

IT'S WHAT ALLOWS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO DELIVER WATER TO TWO REGIONAL IRRIGATION DISTRICTS, ONE IN NEW MEXICO, ONE IN TEXAS, AND TO MEXICO UNDER THE 1906 TREATY.

AND SO HE ARGUES THAT THE DEAL IS IMPOSING OBLIGATIONS ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT THEY DON'T AGREE TO, AND THAT IT CANNOT BE SETTLED WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT AS A PARTY ADMITTED TO THE CASE.

NOW, TEXAS AND NEW MEXICO HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT ARGUMENT.

THEY SAY THAT THE COMPACT IS -- OR THEY SAY THAT THE DEAL IS OKAY UNDER THE COMPACT.

THEY FURTHER SAY THAT THE PROJECT IS SUBJECT TO THE APPROPRIATION.

SO I KNOW THOSE ARE SOME COMPLICATED WORDS, BUT IT BASICALLY MEANS THAT THE AMOUNT OF WATER THAT IS DESIGNATED TO NEW MEXICO, THE PROJECT HAS TO USE THAT AMOUNT IN THEIR CALCULATIONS, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

AND THEN FINALLY, THAT ANY DISPUTES THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS WITH THE OPERATION OF THE RIO GRANDE PROJECT IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO CAN BE ADMINISTERED THROUGH FEDERAL LAWS, WHETHER THAT'S RECLAMATION LAW, OR THROUGH THE STATE ADJUDICATION PROCESS.

THAT'S THE WAY THAT WE DETERMINE WHAT ORDER WATER RIGHTS ARE IN.

>> Lou: OKAY, THANKS FOR THAT.

NOW, IS THERE ANY SENSE FROM HOW THE JUSTICES QUESTIONED THE PARTIES DURING THOSE ORAL ARGUMENTS AS TO HOW THEY MIGHT BE LEANING?

I KNOW JUSTICE GORSUCH, IN PARTICULAR, SEEMED TO HAVE SHIFTED HIS STANCE FROM EARLIER.

>> Prokop: YEAH.

SO WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS ADMITTED AS A PARTY IN 2018, IT WAS A UNANIMOUS DECISION FROM THE FEDERAL COURT WHICH OVERRODE THE SPECIAL MASTER IN THE CASE.

THAT'S THE JUDGE APPOINTED TO OVERSEE THE CASE AS IT MOVES THROUGH A TRIAL-LIKE PERIOD.

SO THEY OVERRODE THE FORMER SPECIAL MASTER AND ADMITTED THE UNITED STATES AS A PARTY.

AND SPECIFICALLY, THEY TALKED ABOUT HOW THE HISTORY OF THE RIO GRANDE PROJECT AND THE RIO GRANDE COMPACT, THAT'S THE LEGAL AGREEMENT THAT SPLITS THE RIVER BETWEEN STATES, ARE INEXTRICABLY INTERTWINED AND NOTING THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S ARGUMENTS OFTEN MIRRORED TEXAS, AND THEY WERE LOOKING AT THE TIME FOR THE SAME SORTS OF RELIEF FROM THE COURT AS TEXAS WAS.

AND SO WHEN FREDERICK LIU WAS TELLING THE COURT YESTERDAY THAT, AS A PARTY, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAD A SAY IN WHETHER OR NOT THIS COULD BE SETTLED, JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH WAS REALLY PUSHING BACK ON THAT.

HE SAID, I'VE GOT TO SAY, YOU'RE MAKING ME REGRET THAT DECISION.

THAT'S A DIRECT QUOTE FROM HIM.

AND SO THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE SKEPTICAL OF THAT, THE OTHER JUSTICES WHO WERE SKEPTICAL OF THAT, INCLUDED CLARENCE THOMAS AND A LITTLE BIT OF CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS.

TWO JUSTICES WERE QUIET AND DIDN'T ASK ANY QUESTIONS.

THAT WAS JUSTICE AMY CONEY BARRETT AND JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH.

BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE, THERE WERE ALSO A LOT OF TOUGH QUESTIONS FOR THE STATES AND THEIR ROLE IN THE DEAL.

JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN AND JUSTICE SONIA SOTOMAYOR HAD SOME REALLY TOUGH QUESTIONS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ROLE OF THE PROJECT LOOKS LIKE UNDER THE ESSENTIALLY NEW COMPACT.

AND THE JUSTICES ARE TRYING TO WEIGH SEVERAL QUESTIONS.

THIS IDEA OF STATE SOVEREIGNTY ON WATER DISPUTES, AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S OPERATION OF A TREATY AND RECLAMATION PROJECT.

THEY HAVE TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE DEAL IMPERMISSIBLY DISPOSES OF THE CLAIMS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND WHETHER OR NOT IT REALLY IMPOSES THESE OBLIGATIONS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SAYS IT DOES.

SO WE'RE GOING TO BE WAITING FOR THAT DECISION THROUGH JUNE, BUT THERE WAS DEFINITELY SOME -- THERE WAS SOME INDICATION OF HOW A FEW OF THE JUSTICES MAY VOTE, BUT IT REALLY LEAVES IT UP IN THE AIR.

>> Lou: UNDERSTOOD.

DANIELLE PROKOP FROM SOURCE NEW MEXICO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. >> Prokop: TAKE CARE.

>> Lou: YOU CAN READ DANIELLE'S REPORTING FROM THE SUPREME COURT AT SOURCENM.COM.

OIL AND GAS ACCOUNTS FOR EIGHT PERCENT OF THE STATE'S WORKFORCE, AND PRODUCTION IN THE PERMIAN BASIN HAS BROUGHT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN REVENUE TO NEW MEXICO.

WAGES ARE RELATIVELY HIGH AND THE POPULATION OF THE SURROUNDING AREA IN SOUTHEAST NEW MEXICO IS BOOMING, AND YET A MAJORITY OF OIL AND GAS WORKERS SURVEYED IN A NEW REPORT FROM UNM'S CENTER FOR SOCIAL POLICY SAY THEY DON'T WANT THEIR CHILDREN TO WORK IN THE INDUSTRY.

THE RECENTLY PUBLISHED "SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO OIL AND GAS WORKFORCE STUDY" HIGHLIGHTS TWELVE-HOUR WORKDAYS AND DANGEROUS CONDITIONS.

ONE OF THE STUDY'S AUTHORS, DR. GABRIEL SANCHEZ, JOINS CORRESPONDENT ELIZABETH MILLER IN OUR STUDIO TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HE FOUND AND WHY THE STUDY FOCUSED ON HISPANIC AND LATINO WORKERS.

>> Elizabeth: SO TELL US A BIT ABOUT THE STUDY.

WHO ARE THESE OIL AND GAS WORKERS, AND WHAT SORT OF CONDITIONS DID YOU FIND THAT THEY WERE WORKING IN?

>> Dr. Sanchez: YEAH, SO THIS STUDY WAS ESSENTIALLY A FOLLOW-UP TO A LOT OF WORK WE'VE DONE TALKING TO MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY ABOUT THE TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY, BUT WE NOTICED LIKE A BIG MISSING LINK TO THAT RESEARCH.

SPECIFICALLY, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OIL AND GAS WORKERS.

SO THIS STUDY LASER-FOCUSED NOT ONLY ON OIL AND GAS WORKERS, BUT LATINO OIL AND GAS WORKERS IN THE PERMIAN BASIN, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY THE HOTBED FOR OIL COUNTRY IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

AND ESSENTIALLY, WE WANTED TO KNOW A FEW THINGS.

ONE IS, WHAT ARE THE WORKING CONDITIONS WITHIN THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY, SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS SEGMENT OF THE WORKFORCE.

AND ALSO THINKING BIGGER PICTURE.

AS WE'RE GOING TO TRANSITION AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE QUESTIONS WE WANTED TO FIND OUT ARE, ARE THESE WORKERS INTERESTED IN TRANSITIONING TO CLEAN ENERGY JOBS OR OTHER INDUSTRIES?

WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE IN TERMS OF THEIR WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT TRAINING NEEDS?

AND IF WE WANT TO PUT THOSE WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT TRAINING NEEDS IN PLAY, SHOULD THAT BE IN ENGLISH, SHOULD THAT BE IN SPANISH, CAN IT BE DONE VIRTUALLY?

A LOT OF REALLY IN-DEPTH INSIGHTS TO TRY TO INFORM WORKFORCE SOLUTIONS ON SOME OF THE PLANS MOVING FORWARD.

>> Elizabeth: GOT IT.

AND YOU SAID THE STUDY FOCUSED ON THE LATINO WORKFORCE.

WHY WAS THAT?

>> Dr. Sanchez: THAT'S RIGHT, YEAH.

AND THIS IS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT GOT ME REALLY INTERESTED IN TAKING ON THIS PROJECT.

I WAS NOT AWARE THAT THE WORKFORCE IS HEAVILY LATINO.

ROUGHLY 40 PERCENT OF ALL OIL AND GAS WORKERS IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO ARE LATINO, A LOT OF THEM IMMIGRANT.

I THINK A LOT OF US, WE HEAR OIL AND GAS WORKERS, THE ASSUMPTION I OFTEN MADE IS, THESE FOLKS MUST BE FROM TEXAS.

I DIDN'T REALIZE A LOT OF THESE FOLKS ARE LATINO AND THEY'RE FROM HERE, FROM THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO, AND WANT TO STAY HERE.

>> Elizabeth: AND WHAT KIND OF CONDITIONS WERE THEY REPORTING FROM THE FIELD?

>> Dr. Sanchez: PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT FOR US TO THINK ABOUT, NOT ONLY FOR ADDRESSING THESE ISSUES NOW, BUT ALSO MAKING SURE AS WE TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, WE DON'T CARRY A LOT OF THIS WITH US, IS THE DANGEROUS NATURE OF THE JOBS.

YOU KNOW, WE ASKED IN QUALITATIVE INTERVIEWS AND IN SURVEYS FROM THE OIL AND GAS WORKFORCE DIRECTLY, HAVE YOU, YOURSELF, WITNESSED AN ACCIDENT?

HAVE YOU BEEN UNFORTUNATELY SOMEBODY WHO'S BEEN HARMED BY AN ACCIDENT?

OVERWHELMINGLY 80 PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE WE SPOKE WITH SAID THEY, THEMSELVES, HAVE WITNESSED AN ACCIDENT ON THE JOB.

20 PERCENT HAVE HAD A SERIOUS ACCIDENT THEMSELVES ON THE JOB.

AND PROBABLY THE BIGGEST TAKE-HOME MESSAGE IS, WHEN WE ASKED FOLKS AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT HAPPENED -- UNFORTUNATELY, WE LEARNED THERE'S A LOT OF CASUALTIES AND VERY SERIOUS INJURIES ON THE JOB.

BUT THE TAKE-HOME MESSAGE WAS, OVERWHELMINGLY WORKERS SAID THESE CAN BE PREVENTED.

WE CAN DO LESS OF THIS IF WE DID BETTER TRAINING AND PUT BETTER OVERALL SAFETY STANDARDS INTO THE WORKFORCE.

SO I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG TAKE-HOME MESSAGES.

OBVIOUSLY WE WANT TO ADDRESS THIS NOW, BUT LET'S NOT REPEAT THE SAME DYNAMIC AS WE TRANSITION TO OTHER INDUSTRIES THAT ARE GOING TO REPLACE FOSSIL FUELS.

>> Elizabeth: I SEE.

THAT'S A REALLY GREAT POINT.

THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY HAS A REPUTATION FOR CREATING HIGH-PAYING JOBS, BUT WHAT DID YOUR RESEARCH FIND?

>> Dr. Sanchez: YEAH.

AND I MEAN, A LOT OF WHAT WE TRY TO DO IN THIS STYLE OF RESEARCH IS ADDRESS, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES MYTHS, SOMETIMES THERE'S A LOT OF FACT BASED ON WHAT WE HEAR ABOUT THIS WORKFORCE.

BUT LIKE A LOT OF NEW MEXICANS, I ALWAYS PERCEIVED THAT MOST OF THIS WORKFORCE MAKES SIX FIGURES.

AND THERE'S SOME TRUTH TO THAT.

A LOT OF THE MEMBERS OF THE WORKFORCE WE TALKED TO GET PAID VERY, VERY WELL, BUT TWO INSIGHTS FROM THIS IS, MOST FOLKS THAT ARE GENERATING HIGH SALARIES WORK A LOT OF OVERTIME.

IN FACT, I THINK THE AVERAGE NUMBER OF WORK HOURS PER DAY WAS 12 HOURS IN THE FOLKS THAT WE TALKED WITH, THAT SPECIFICALLY WORK IN THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY.

SO A LOT OF THEM DO MAKE A LOT OF HIGH-PAYING JOBS, BUT IT COMES WITH TRADE-OFFS, AND A LOT OF THAT IS VERY, VERY LONG WORK DAYS, WHICH IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF WHAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, POTENTIAL INJURIES, THAT'S PROBABLY NOT THE GREATEST RECIPE FOR SUCCESS IN PREVENTING ON-THE-JOB INJURIES AND ACCIDENTS OF THAT NATURE.

WE ALSO LEARNED THAT A LARGE SEGMENT, I THINK 20 PERCENT OF THE FOLKS WE TALKED TO, MAKE $20,000 OR LESS.

AND A LOT OF THOSE FOLKS, RIGHT, ARE MAYBE IN SPILLOVER INDUSTRIES THAT SUPPORT THE OIL AND GAS INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT AREN'T DIRECTLY IN THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY THEMSELVES.

SO WE WANTED TO TAKE A PRETTY COMPREHENSIVE LOOK AT THIS AND FIGURE OUT NOT JUST THE FOLKS THAT ARE MAKING REALLY GOOD INCOMES, BUT WHAT ABOUT EVERYBODY ELSE?

DO THEY STILL HAVE TO WORK OVERTIME JUST TO BARELY GET BY?

AND I THINK THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT I, MYSELF, LEARNED IN ADDITION TO FOLKS THAT TOOK A LOOK AT THE REPORT.

>> Elizabeth: GOT IT.

BUT THEY'RE REALLY MAKING SOME OF THESE COMPROMISES, LIKE WORKING LONG HOURS, INCREASING RISK OF INJURY, TAKING TIME AWAY FROM FAMILY, TAKING TIME AWAY FROM OPPORTUNITY TO TRAIN FOR OTHER JOBS EVEN, PERHAPS.

>> Dr. Sanchez: THAT'S RIGHT.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, A LARGE SEGMENT DON'T HAVE A LOT OF THE TYPICAL BENEFIT INFRASTRUCTURE MANY OF US TAKE FOR GRANTED.

SO A LOT OF IT IS THE TRADE-OFFS.

YOU MIGHT HAVE A PRETTY GOOD INCOME, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE A LOT OF THE OTHER SAFETY PROTOCOLS IN PLACE, AND A LOT OF THAT ARE THINGS LIKE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE.

WE KNOW THIS INDUSTRY IN PARTICULAR, WE'VE ALL WITNESSED IT, GOES UP AND DOWN, RIGHT, AND SOME OF THOSE DOWN PERIODS, IF THE WORKFORCE DOESN'T HAVE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, OR AT LEAST UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE THAT GETS THEM CLOSE TO WHAT THEY MAKE IN TERMS OF INCOME, RIGHT, THAT'S A LOOPHOLE THAT I THINK PARTLY THIS STUDY CAN HELP INFORM TRYING TO ADDRESS WITH POLICY DOWN THE LINE.

>> Elizabeth: GOT IT.

SO WHAT POLICY DECISIONS COULD BE MADE IN THE SHORT-TERM TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE POOR WORKING CONDITIONS AND POOR PAY FOR THIS WORKFORCE?

>> Dr. Sanchez: I'LL SAY THAT A BIG CHUNK OF THIS RESEARCH, YOU KNOW, WITH OUR PARTNERSHIP WITH SOMOS UN PUEBLO UNIDOS, WHO IS WHO COMMISSIONED THE STUDY, THEY'RE VERY, VERY EFFECTIVE AT EDUCATING THE STATE LEGISLATURE, IDENTIFYING WHAT NEEDS TO BE PUT IN PLACE, AND THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL IN THIS LEGISLATIVE SESSION WITH A COUPLE OF VICTORIES THAT I THINK ARE AT LEAST PARTLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO WHAT WE FOUND IN THIS STUDY.

ONE OF THEM IS, I KNOW THAT THERE'S $5 MILLION INVESTED IN ADULT WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT TRAINING, AND SPECIFICALLY FOR HARD TO REACH WORKERS LIKE WHO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW IN THE PERMIAN BASIN, HEAVILY SPANISH SPEAKERS, ETC.

AND ONE OF THE MAIN FINDINGS WE FOUND IN OUR STUDY IS A LOT OF THE RESOURCES THAT ARE AVAILABLE FOR RETRAINING FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ARE NOT AVAILABLE TO A LARGE SEGMENT IN THE IMMIGRANT WORKFORCE, WHICH UNFORTUNATELY IN OUR STATE, RIGHT, COMPRISES A LARGE SEGMENT OF FOLKS.

THIS $5 MILLION FROM THE STATE SPECIFICALLY IS FLEXIBLE TO BE ABLE TO REACH MIXED STATUS FAMILIES, AND I THINK THAT DIRECTLY ADDRESSES ONE ASPECT OF OUR REPORT THAT SAYS, WE NEED TO FIND WAYS TO FILL SOME GAPS IN FEDERAL FUNDING, AND I THINK THIS DOES JUST THAT.

SO I THINK THAT'S A PRETTY IMPORTANT WIN.

AND THEN WE ALSO LEARNED IN THE STUDY THAT A LARGE SEGMENT OF THE WORKFORCE IS POSITIVELY VERY INTERESTED IN GETTING RETRAINING, BUT THEY NOTED TO US, LOOK, I WORK A LOT OF HOURS, IF I'M GOING TO DO ANY KIND OF WORKFORCE TRAINING, THAT'S TAKING TIME AWAY.

I NEED TO BE ABLE TO BE PAID FOR THAT, OR HAVE SOME TYPE OF SUBSIDY OR SOME BENEFIT FINANCIALLY TO TAKE OFF TIME FROM WORK.

I KNOW THERE WAS A PILOT PROGRAM THAT WAS FUNDED IN THE STATE LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

I THINK IT PUTS A MILLION DOLLARS IN PLAY FOR LOW INCOME WORKERS THAT ARE CURRENTLY GOING THROUGH ANY TYPE OF WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT TRAINING, AND IT PAYS THEM A MONTHLY STIPEND TO OFFSET SOME OF THE MISSED HOURS FROM WORK.

>> Elizabeth: AND YOUR STUDY LOOKED SPECIFICALLY AT WOMEN WORKING IN OIL AND GAS AND WORKING IN INDUSTRIES THAT ARE SORT OF ASSOCIATED AND BENEFIT OFF THE SIDE OF OIL AND GAS.

WHAT DID YOU FIND WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THEIR OPTIONS AND THEIR LIMITATIONS?

>> Dr. Sanchez: YEAH, I THINK WE OFTEN THINK, YOU KNOW, TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY.

OUR TEAM AT UNM, WE'RE A JUST TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY OVERALL RESEARCH TEAM, REALLY THINKING ABOUT THIS COMPREHENSIVELY.

WE OFTEN THINK OIL AND GAS WORKERS, THEY'RE GOING TO BE DISPLACED.

BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE SPILLOVER ECONOMIES, RIGHT.

WE THINK ABOUT THE PERMIAN BASIN, SAN JUAN, THESE AREAS, RIGHT, THEY HAVE A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE, RESTAURANTS, ALL THOSE OTHER BUSINESSES THAT FEED OFF THE WORKFORCE THAT'S THERE TO WORK IN FOSSIL FUELS.

SO WE WANTED TO FIND OUT, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WOMEN IN THESE AREAS, WHAT ARE THEY THINKING ABOUT BEING ABLE TO BE RETRAINED, WHAT ARE THEIR THOUGHTS ABOUT WHAT THE FUTURE LOOKS LIKE.

AND VERY SIMILAR TO THE OIL AND GAS WORKER THEMSELVES, VERY INTERESTED IN GETTING TRAINED TO DO OTHER JOBS.

THEY RECOGNIZE THE FUTURE IS COMING AND THEY WANT TO BE A PART OF THAT FUTURE.

BUT MAYBE ONE OF THE BIGGEST TAKE-HOME MESSAGES IS, IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT A REALITY, A LARGE SEGMENT OF THESE WOMEN ARE GOING TO NEED CHILD CARE, EITHER PROVIDED DIRECTLY BY HOWEVER THEY'RE GOING TO GET TRAINED, OR INDIRECTLY BY BEING ABLE TO LOOK FOR AFFORDABLE, BUT HIGH QUALITY EARLY CHILDHOOD.

THAT'S AN AREA WE'VE BEEN DOING A LOT OF WORK IN IN THIS SPACE FOR SOME TIME.

THAT'S NOT A NEW FINDING.

BUT I THINK WHAT WAS NEW IN THIS STUDY IS, WE SPECIFICALLY TALKED TO A LOT OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO, FOLKS THAT ACTUALLY PROVIDE THIS LEVEL OF SERVICE, RIGHT, BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE TRAINING, WHETHER IT'S IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE CLASSES, GED, ETC.

AND THOSE FOLKS TOLD US DIRECTLY THEY RECOGNIZE THEY NEED MORE FUNDING TO MEET THE CURRENT DEMAND, AS WELL AS IT'S GOING TO GROW OVER TIME AS MORE OF THESE FOLKS LOOK TO FIND EMPLOYMENT IN OTHER INDUSTRIES.

>> Elizabeth: GOT IT.

AND THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO RECENTLY ARRIVED IN THE AREA.

THE POPULATION THERE IS GROWING.

THEY SEEM TO WANT TO SETTLE DOWN AND ESTABLISH SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO, SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO AS HOME.

BUT WHAT DO YOU HEAR ABOUT WHETHER THEY WANT THEIR CHILDREN TO WORK IN THIS INDUSTRY?

AND WHAT OPTIONS ARE AVAILABLE TO THEM, OR WHAT ALTERNATIVES ARE AVAILABLE?

>> Dr. Sanchez: YEAH, A COUPLE OF REALLY IMPORTANT INSIGHTS FROM THE WORK THAT YOU NOTED ON IS A LARGE SEGMENT, LIKE OVERWHELMINGLY -- I THINK WE ONLY TALKED TO ONE PERSON ACROSS ALL THE SURVEYS AND FOCUS GROUPS WHO SAID THEY WEREN'T INTERESTED IN STAYING IN THE PERMIAN BASIN LONGTERM.

SO THESE FOLKS HAVE RAISED FAMILIES HERE, THEY WANT TO SEE THEIR KIDS GROW UP IN THE SAME REGION THAT THEY'VE SPENT A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF TIME IN.

BUT WHEN WE ASKED THEM, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO THOSE JOB PROSPECTS LOOK LIKE FOR YOUR CHILDREN, A LOT OF THEM SAID, LOOK, WE KNOW THAT THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY PAYS A GOOD LIVING, BUT WE WOULD LOVE OUR KIDS TO HAVE OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE NOT AS DANGEROUS AND DON'T HAVE THE BOOM AND BUST RHYTHM TO IT THAT WE ALL KNOW THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY DOES.

SO THEY'RE LOOKING TO US TO FIGURE OUT, WHAT ARE THE JOB INFRASTRUCTURE PLANS LOOKING LIKE IN THE STATE WHERE THERE'LL BE GOOD PAYING JOBS THAT WILL BE HERE IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO SO THAT OUR KIDS DON'T HAVE TO LEAVE THE REGION.

AND IN FACT, PART OF THIS STUDY ACTUALLY SURVEYED A LOT OF YOUNG ADULTS, SPECIFICALLY IN THESE COUNTIES, THAT ARE 18 TO 25 YEARS OLD, AND WE ASKED THEM, WHAT DO YOUR PROSPECTS LOOK LIKE.

OVERWHELMINGLY, THEY WANT TO STAY IN THE REGION, BUT THEY REALIZE JOBS ARE LIMITED AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GET TRAINED IN SOME OF THE JOBS OF THE FUTURE TO BE ABLE TO STAY IN THE SAME PLACES THAT THEY GREW UP AND THEY WANT TO RAISE THEIR KIDS IN.

>> Elizabeth: AND I KNOW THAT THERE'S AN AMBITION TO SEEK CLEAN ENERGY JOBS, BECOME OF SOME OF THOSE CAREERS THAT PEOPLE TRANSITION INTO, BUT IS THERE A GEOGRAPHIC MISMATCH BETWEEN WHERE THE FOSSIL FUEL JOBS ARE NOW AND WHERE CLEAN ENERGY JOBS WILL BE IN THE FUTURE?

>> Dr. Sanchez: YEAH.

I MEAN, WE'VE DONE QUITE A BIT OF RESEARCH IN THIS SPACE, LOOKING AT WHAT'S GOING ON IN OTHER STATES, LOOKING AT SURVEYS OF THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY OVERALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY TRYING TO ANSWER SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS.

IN ESSENCE, RIGHT, IF WE'RE BUILDING OUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE, HOW DO WE DO IT RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THAT NATIVE NEW MEXICANS HAVE ACCESS TO THE JOBS OF THE FUTURE.

AND A COUPLE OF THINGS TO NOTE FROM THE BODY OF WORK THAT WE CONDUCTED.

ONE IS, UNFORTUNATELY WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE OIL AND GAS WORKFORCE, IT'S NOT THE MOST DIVERSE.

IN FACT, IT'S ONE OF THE LEAST DIVERSE OF ANY LABOR SECTORS IN THE COUNTRY.

IT TENDS TO BE OLDER, A LITTLE BIT MORE WHITE THAN THE AVERAGE WORKFORCE, AND NOT VERY FEMALE IN TERMS OF THE OVERALL WORKFORCE DYNAMICS IN TERMS OF GENDER.

SO IF WE WANT THE JOBS OF THE FUTURE TO LOOK LIKE NEW MEXICO, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PUT ACTION STEPS IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE IT LOOKS LIKE THE STATE, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS MUCH MORE DIVERSE ACROSS ALL THESE DIMENSIONS THAN WHEN WE LOOK AT THE NATIONAL WORKFORCE FOR CLEAN ENERGY JOBS.

THE UPSIDE IS, WHEN WE LOOK SPECIFICALLY TO NEW MEXICO, WHAT DOES THE CLEAN ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE LOOK LIKE, WHERE WILL THESE JOBS BE PLACED, MOST OF IT IS GOING TO BE IN RURAL AREAS OF THE STATE.

WHEN WE ASKED, HOWEVER, THE VOTING POPULATION IN SURVEYS, WHAT IS YOUR PERCEPTION ABOUT HOW THINGS ARE GOING TO LOOK, THEIR PERCEPTION IS ALL THE JOBS ARE GOING TO BE IN SANTA FE AND ALBUQUERQUE.

SO A LOT OF IT, I THINK, IS DISPELLING MYTHS THAT THERE WILL BE A LOT OF RELATIVELY HIGH-PAYING JOBS AVAILABLE TO FOLKS IN RURAL AREAS OF THE STATE, BUT AGAIN, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GET ADVANCED TRAINING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY TRAINED UP FOR SOME OF THESE JOBS.

GOOD NEWS IS, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PH.D.s IN ENGINEER OR BIOCHEMISTRY.

A LOT OF THESE JOBS, IN FACT, PAY BETTER AT THE LOWER LEVELS OF EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT THAN SIMILAR JOBS IN OTHER INDUSTRIES WITH THAT LEVEL OF EDUCATION.

BUT YOU DO NEED TO HAVE SOME BASIC CREDENTIALS, YOU DO NEED TO HAVE SOME BASIC TRAINING TO BE ABLE TO BE AVAILABLE AND ELIGIBLE FOR SOME OF THESE JOBS OF THE FUTURE.

>> Elizabeth: GOT IT.

SO OPPORTUNITIES TO QUICKLY TRANSITION IF WE CAN SORT OF SMOOTH THE PATH THERE A LITTLE BIT?

>> Dr. Sanchez: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Elizabeth: BIG PICTURE, WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THE WORKFORCE IN THIS INDUSTRY AND THE CHALLENGES THAT THEY FACE?

>> Dr. Sanchez: I THINK WE ALL KNOW THAT THE STATE'S ECONOMY IS LARGELY DRIVEN BY THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY, RIGHT.

THAT'S JUST WHAT IT IS.

BUT I DON'T THINK A LOT OF US LOOK DEEPER INTO FIGURING OUT, LIKE, WHO ARE THESE WORKERS, WHAT'S THEIR FUTURE GOING TO LOOK LIKE, RIGHT, AS THESE JOBS -- AND THEY'RE ACUTELY AWARE OF THIS.

THEY WOULD TELL US DIRECTLY, WE KNOW THESE JOBS ARE GOING AWAY, IT'S SCARY, WE WANT TO BE AT LEAST A FORWARD THINKER IN TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR FAMILIES ARE TAKEN CARE OF WHEN ALL THIS TRANSITION HAPPENS.

BUT I THINK MAKING SURE THAT THAT WORKFORCE, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT STATEMENT WE ALL MAKE, A JUST TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY, IN ESSENCE WHAT THAT MEANS IS, WE ALL KNOW FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS WE'RE MOVING IN THIS DIRECTION AND THOSE ARE GOOD THINGS FOR THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO IN TERMS OF OUR ENVIRONMENT AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT GOES ALONG WITH THAT, BUT WE DON'T WANT TO LEAVE ANYBODY OUT IN THAT TRANSITION AND LEAVE THEM BEHIND, AND I THINK THE OIL AND GAS WORKFORCE ARE PROBABLY FRONT AND CENTER OF WHO MIGHT BE MOST DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED IN A BAD WAY FROM A VERY POSITIVE TRANSITION.

SO I THINK A LOT OF OUR TEAM'S RESEARCH IS REALLY AIMED AT MAKING SURE THAT THOSE WORKERS' VOICES ARE INCLUDED IN THE POLICY DISCUSSIONS THAT ARE MOVING FORWARD, BECAUSE THEY WILL TELL US IN THEIR OWN WORDS, THEY DON'T FEEL THAT EITHER THE STATE POLICYMAKERS OR THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY ACTIVELY ASK FOR THEIR OPINIONS.

AND HOPEFULLY THESE TYPE OF REPORTS THAT DIRECTLY GET THEIR OPINIONS AND THEIR VOICES ON THESE SUBJECTS, RIGHT, GIVE THEM A LITTLE BIT MORE CONFIDENCE THAT THEY'RE NOT BEING LEFT OUT OF THESE DISCUSSIONS.

>> Elizabeth: THAT'S GREAT.

AND YES, HEARING FROM THEM AND THEN TAKING THAT RIGHT TO THE ROUNDHOUSE AS YOU'VE DONE, THAT'S GREAT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING ON AND TALKING TO US TODAY ABOUT SOME OF YOUR RESEARCH.

>> Dr. Sanchez: GREATLY APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE RESEARCH, AND HOPEFULLY, AGAIN, IT INFORMS SOME OF THE WIDER SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION ABOUT SOME OF THE NUANCES ASSOCIATED WITH THE TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY.

>> Elizabeth: ABSOLUTELY.

THANK YOU.

>>Lou: THANKS AGAIN TO ELIZABETH MILLER AND DR. GABRIEL SANCHEZ FOR THAT DISCUSSION.

NEW MEXICO RANKS IN THE TOP 10 STATES WITH THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF ADULTS WITH LONG COVID.

ABOUT 36 PERCENT OF NEW MEXICANS WHO'VE CONTRACTED THE DISEASE HAVE REPORTED SYMPTOMS LONGER THAN THREE MONTHS AFTER THEIR DIAGNOSIS, WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE REPORTING DIFFERENT LONGTERM IMPACTS ON THEIR HEALTH.

IN PART TWO OF HIS DISCUSSION WITH FORMER AMERICAN PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT MICHAEL BIRD, AND ONE OF FIRST NEW MEXICO PATIENTS WITH COVID, JENNIFER BURRILL, JEFF ASKS JENNIFER ABOUT HER BOUT WITH LONG COVID AND THE TOLL IT'S TAKEN.

>> Jeff: THANKS, LOU.

JUST LIKE WITH THE FIRST PART OF OUR CONVERSATION, THERE'S A LOT TO GET TO, AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S TIME, SO LET'S GET STRAIGHT TO IT.

JEN, I KNOW YOU'VE STRUGGLED FOR PARTS OF THE LAST FOUR YEARS ON AND OFF WITH YOUR HEALTH, PROBABLY WITH WHAT WE KNOW AS LONG COVID.

WHAT HAS THAT BEEN LIKE FOR YOU?

WHAT HAVE YOUR SYMPTOMS BEEN?

>> Burrill: WELL, THE SYMPTOMS ARE FRUSTRATING, BECAUSE AT LEAST MY PROVIDERS ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH HOW TO DEAL WITH LONG COVID, OR IF THERE IS A SOLUTION, WHICH I THINK WE CAN PROBABLY TALK ABOUT MORE.

MINE STARTED PRETTY SEVERELY WITH TRANSIENT PAIN, WHICH EVERYBODY THINKS IS MADE UP BECAUSE IT MOVES.

YOU'RE LIKE, IT HURTS IN YOUR LEGS AND THEN IT'LL MOVE.

BUT WHEN WE LEARNED THAT IT WAS MORE OF A BLOOD DISEASE AND THAT IT WOULD FLOW THROUGH YOUR BODY AND EFFECT DIFFERENT PARTS AT DIFFERENT TIMES, THEN THAT MADE A LITTLE MORE SENSE.

MY ISSUE IS THAT WHEN I ADDRESSED MY PROVIDERS WITH THOSE ISSUES AND SOME PAIN I WAS HAVING IN MY HEAD, PRETTY SEVERELY, SPECIFIC PAIN, YOU KNOW, THERE WASN'T A SOLUTION OTHER THAN GIVING ME OPIOIDS, WHICH I REFUSED TO DO, BECAUSE I WORK IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE OF EVERY INCOME LEVEL GET TRAPPED INTO ADDICTION FROM THAT, AND I WAS NOT WILLING TO DO THAT.

I WAS VERY THANKFUL THAT -- I WASN'T ABLE TO SLEEP FROM THE PAIN, AND SO YOU GET A LITTLE CRAZY AND YOU DON'T HEAL, RIGHT, YOUR BODY DOESN'T HAVE A CHANCE TO HEAL.

AND SO I TOOK SOME CBD OIL AT NIGHT.

IT DIDN'T FIX THE PAIN, BUT IT TOOK THE EDGE OFF ENOUGH I COULD START TO SLEEP.

BUT THAT IS A CONTINUING EFFORT.

IT GETS A LITTLE BETTER, BUT I STILL HAVE A LOT OF LUNG ISSUES IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, I USED TO HIKE QUITE A BIT, NORTHERN NEW MEXICO IS GREAT, AND NOW I CAN ONLY DO A COUPLE OF MILES AND THEN I'M OUT, I'M EXHAUSTED AND I'M WINDED AND I CAN'T DO IT.

AND IT'S EVEN SHOWN UP WHEN I'M IN TRIAL.

IF YOU'RE SPEAKING FOR AN HOUR, SOMETIMES YOU LOSE YOUR BREATH.

IT REMINDED ME OF WHEN I WAS PREGNANT AND THE BABY WOULD SIT ON YOUR LUNGS, AND YOU'D BE LIKE, JUST LET ME CATCH MY BREATH FOR A MINUTE.

AND SO IT HAS EFFECTED EVERYDAY LIFE.

RIGHT NOW, THE DOCTORS I'M SEEING, AT LEAST, JUST DON'T HAVE A CURE.

>> Jeff: I KNOW WAY TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE SIMILAR STORIES.

MICHAEL, LET'S GO TO YOU FOR A MOMENT.

LONG COVID IS NOT SUPER WELL UNDERSTOOD AT THIS POINT, BUT THERE IS CERTAINLY MOUNTING EVIDENCE THAT DESPITE WHAT DENIERS SAY IS A REAL THING.

WE JUST HEARD JEN DESCRIBE HER EXPERIENCE.

WHAT IS LONG COVID?

WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT IT?

WHAT DON'T WE KNOW ABOUT IT, SORT OF FROM A MEDICAL PERSPECTIVE?

>> Bird: WELL, I'M NOT REALLY QUALIFIED TO SPEAK ABOUT IT FROM A MEDICAL PERSPECTIVE.

FIRST OF ALL, LET ME JUST STATE THAT.

I THINK THAT YOUR EXPERIENCE IS SO WIDESPREAD THAT I THINK THE RESEARCH THAT THEY'RE BEGINNING TO DO IS BEGINNING TO EXPLORE, YOU KNOW, WHAT EXACTLY THE IMPLICATIONS ARE FOR INDIVIDUALS AND ALL OF OUR BODY SYSTEMS, HEART, LUNG, EVERYTHING ELSE.

SO I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF RESEARCH THAT HAS BEEN STARTED, BUT I THINK IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN WHAT'S GOING TO BE THE RESULT OF THAT AND WHAT SORT OF TREATMENT OPTIONS WILL BE AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE.

>> Jeff: JEN, IT'S MY SENSE THAT THERE HASN'T BEEN LIKE A REALLY SERIOUS PUSH TO UNDERSTAND THIS BETTER.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

AND IF SO, LIKE WHY AREN'T WE TRYING HARDER TO UNDERSTAND THIS?

>> Burrill: YEAH.

AND YOU KNOW, I GOT COVID BEFORE THERE WERE VACCINES, AND SO I DON'T KNOW IF MY EXPERIENCE IS DIFFERENT THAN PEOPLE WHO GOT IT AFTER THE VACCINES.

BUT IT'S BEEN FOUR YEARS, RIGHT, AND OUR LOCAL PRACTITIONERS HERE IN NEW MEXICO JUST ARE TRYING TO TREAT IT LIKE SOMETHING BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, RIGHT.

SO THEY'RE TREATING SYMPTOMS, NOT THE UNDERLYING ISSUES, RIGHT.

AND SO IF YOU'RE HAVING HEART PALPITATIONS, WHICH I GET SOMETIMES FROM TRANSITIONING -- IF YOU STAND UP TOO QUICKLY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOUR HEART WILL INCREASE QUITE A BIT, AND THEN IT'LL LEVEL OUT AFTER A WHILE.

BUT IT CAN CAUSE YOU TO FEEL DIZZY OR FAINT.

AND THEN THEY'RE LIKE, OH, LET'S CHECK YOUR BLOOD PRESSURE, AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG.

AND LET'S DO THIS.

SO THEY'RE JUST LOOKING AT THE SYMPTOM KIND OF ISSUES THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TREATED BEFORE COVID, AND SO THERE HASN'T BEEN REALLY ANY INTEGRATION INTO HOW THE COVID VIRUS IS IMPACTING THOSE THINGS.

AND SO I THINK UNTIL WE HAVE MORE NATIONAL DATA ON THAT, THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY TRAINING FOR OUR LOCAL PROVIDERS.

AND YOU KNOW, WE'RE A VERY RURAL STATE.

IN SANTA FE, THERE'S ONLY TWO HOSPITALS, AND THEY ARE SHORT STAFFED.

THEY ALWAYS ARE WITH PROVIDERS.

I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE FROM LAW SCHOOL, HIS WIFE CAME OUT HERE AND WAS A TRAVELING NURSE, AND BECAUSE THEY'RE SO SHORT STAFFED, SHE WAS OUT HERE FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS.

WE JUST DON'T HAVE ANY OF THE MEDICAL PERSONNEL HERE TO REALLY DEAL WITH THE NEED OR THE VOLUME OF ISSUES, SO THEY'RE JUST GOING TO BE TRIAGING AND NOT REALLY ADJUSTING THE LONG-TERM ISSUES.

>> Jeff: SORT OF EXPOSING SOME OF THE PROBLEMS THAT A LOT OF US HAVE ALREADY KNOWN ABOUT FOR A LONG TIME.

MICHAEL, PAST LONG COVID, WHAT DO YOU FEEL LIKE HAVE BEEN SOME OF THE OTHER LONG-TERM AND LASTING IMPACTS ON THE STATE AND ITS PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEMS FROM THE PANDEMIC?

>> Bird: WELL, I THINK AS YOU REFERENCED, THAT MANY OF THE PROVIDERS THAT HAVE BEEN IN OUR SYSTEMS ARE RETIRING.

MANY OF THEM ARE BURNED OUT.

MANY OF THEM ARE LOOKING AT OTHER SORT OF CAREER OPPORTUNITIES.

AND, I MEAN, IT REALLY GOES BACK TO OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM AS IT EXISTS, AND AS IT EXISTED PRIOR TO COVID.

WE REALLY HAVE NOT -- WE DON'T REALLY HAVE, IN MY OPINION, WE DON'T REALLY HAVE A HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IN THIS COUNTRY.

WHAT WE DO HAVE IS REALLY AN INSURANCE INDUSTRY.

AND MORE AND MORE PHYSICIANS AND THE ACTUAL PROVIDERS, NURSES AND THE PEOPLE WHO SEE PATIENTS AND ARE PROVIDING THE CARE, MANY OF THEM ARE TOTALLY FRUSTRATED WITH THE SYSTEM BECAUSE IT IS NOT FOCUSED ON PATIENT CARE.

IT'S BECOME A FINANCIAL SYSTEM, NOT A SYSTEM OF MEETING NEEDS OF PATIENTS.

AND SO I THINK UNTIL WE REALLY STEP BACK AND FOCUS ON WHAT THE PRIORITY NEEDS TO BE, IN TERMS OF FOCUSING ON PATIENTS, FOCUSING ON PUBLIC HEALTH AND COMMUNITY HEALTH -- WE REALLY NEED TO, I THINK, REALLY NEED TO STEP BACK AND FOCUS ON WHAT REALLY IS IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF CREATING HEALTH IN A COMMUNITY.

AND IT'S NOT NECESSARILY MORE HOSPITALS, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE INSURANCE SYSTEM AS IT EXISTS, WHICH I CLEARLY HAVE ISSUES WITH MYSELF, AND RESOURCING.

I MEAN, AGAIN, I'M GOING TO GO BACK TO RESOURCING THOSE PROVIDERS AND THOSE SYSTEMS THAT ARE ACTUALLY PROVIDING CARE IN A MANNER THAT MEETS THE COMMUNITY'S NEEDS.

AND IT HAS TO BE ALL ABOUT COMMUNITY, BECAUSE AS INDIVIDUALS, YOU KNOW, INDIVIDUALS CAN GET WHAT THEY NEED, BUT WE NEED COMMUNITY HEALTH, AND PUBLIC HEALTH IS REALLY ABOUT COMMUNITY HEALTH.

>> Burrill: AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS, IF I CAN JUMP IN THERE, I KNOW WHEN PEOPLE ARE TESTING POSITIVE FOR COVID, THEIR PROVIDERS WON'T LET THEM COME IN THE OFFICE.

SO THEY'RE LIKE, WELL, WHEN THAT'S OVER, THEN YOU CAN COME SEE ME, WHICH IS REALLY FRUSTRATING, BECAUSE HOW DO YOU ADDRESS THE MEDICAL CARE?

YOU'RE NOT.

AND FOR THE PEOPLE THAT ENDED UP IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM, WHICH IS WHAT THE GOVERNOR WAS FOCUSED ON, HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM, MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE NOT INSURED.

SO THE STATE PAID A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY.

I THINK IT BEGS THE QUESTION, WOULD WE HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF FINANCIALLY DOING UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE HERE IN NEW MEXICO?

BECAUSE WE'RE ALREADY SPENDING TONS OF MONEY TO TREAT PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT INSURED.

SO YOU'RE JUST SHIFTING MONEY FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER.

AND WITH THE UNIVERSAL CARE, THEN YOU COULD GET PEOPLE BASIC EVERYDAY KIND OF CARE THAT MIGHT PREVENT THE LARGER ISSUES, WHERE YOU'RE SPENDING TONS OF MONEY IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM.

IF YOU CAN GET THEM A FLU SHOT OR THOSE KIND OF ISSUES EARLY ON THAT ARE PREVENTIVE, THEN YOU WOULD ACTUALLY SAVE A TON OF MONEY IN THE LONG RUN.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO RETURN TO THE THEME OF COMMUNITY.

I WAS REALLY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, AND ASK KIND OF A BROADER QUESTION.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE ALL, EVERYONE WHO LIVES ON THIS PLANET, IN THIS COUNTRY, IN THIS STATE, BEAR SORT OF A COLLECTIVE SCAR AS A RESULT OF HAVING LIVED THROUGH THIS.

AND, OF COURSE, WE'RE NOT FINISHED LIVING THROUGH THIS.

AND I MEAN THAT SORT OF FROM AN EMOTIONAL STANDPOINT, MAYBE EVEN A SPIRITUAL STANDPOINT, A SOCIETAL STANDPOINT.

MICHAEL, I'LL START WITH YOU.

I'M INTERESTED, DOES THAT RESONATE WITH YOU?

>> Bird: YES, IT DOES.

I THINK THAT WE REALLY -- I MEAN, IT'S LIKE A WOUND.

YOU KNOW, MANY INDIVIDUALS IN OUR SOCIETY WERE WOUNDED, HAVE BEEN WOUNDED BY THIS, AND THE WOUND, THE INJURY, IS COVID.

THE INJURY IS OUR SYSTEMS THAT DIDN'T MEET THE NEEDS OF OUR COMMUNITIES.

YOU KNOW, THE MEDICAL SYSTEM, THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM, THE SOCIAL SYSTEM, THE HOUSING SYSTEM, THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM, THE CRIMINAL SYSTEM, ALL OF THESE SYSTEMS ARE ALL PART AND PARCEL OF WHAT CREATES A HEALTHY COMMUNITY.

AND IN MY MIND, WE REALLY HAVEN'T INVESTED IN THOSE INSTITUTIONS AND REALLY FOCUSED ON MEETING THE NEEDS OF OUR COMMUNITY MEMBERS.

AND WE HAD PROBLEMS BEFORE.

A LOT OF THESE ISSUES HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

BUT WHAT COVID DID WAS JUST EXACERBATE ALL OF THESE ISSUES, AND SO WE'RE LEFT -- IT'S LIKE A HOUSE BEING TORN APART.

SO IT'S GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME AND EFFORT TO REBUILD THE HOUSE, REBUILD AND CREATE SYSTEMS THAT BEST MEET THE NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS STATE AND IN THE COUNTRY.

AND UNTIL WE REALLY -- MAYBE IT'S SORT OF A COME-TO-JESUS MOMENT.

WE REALLY NEED TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, WHY DID IT HAPPEN, HOW DID IT HAPPEN, AND WHAT CAN WE DO TO ENSURE THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> Jeff: JEN, ARE WE DOING ENOUGH TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION, TO UNDERSTAND THAT SCAR OR WOUND THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT?

>> Burrill: NO, AND I THINK YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT IN TERMS OF THE WOUNDS, BUT I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE SOME GENERATIONAL TRAUMA.

WE HAVE A WHOLE GENERATION OF CHILDREN WHO WATCHED THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS DIE IN THEIR HOME WITH NO ABILITY TO TRY TO STOP IT, AND NO CONTROL OVER WHAT HAPPENED NEXT.

WE ALSO HAVE CHILDREN WHO WENT THROUGH SEVERAL YEARS, SOMETIMES THREE YEARS, IN ISOLATION.

THEY'RE DOING ZOOM SCHOOL OR VIDEO SCHOOL FROM THEIR BEDROOMS.

SO THEY LOST ALL THAT SOCIALIZATION, THEY LOST A LOT OF PERSPECTIVE ON THE WORLD, AND A LOT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA FROM IT.

AND SO I THINK WE IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEMS ARE NOT DEALING WITH THAT PROPERLY.

WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH IT IN THE CHILDREN WHO ARE GOING TO BE OUR LEADERS PRETTY SOON, WHICH IS CONCERNING.

AND WE'RE DEFINITELY NOT DEALING WITH IT IN OUR GENERATION, EITHER.

WE'RE JUST TOLD TO GET BACK TO WORK, IT'S OVER.

AND IT'S NOT REALLY OVER, YOU KNOW.

IT'S NOT, RIGHT.

WE STILL HAVE COURT SYSTEMS THAT SHUT DOWN IF SOMEBODY SAYS, HEY, I'VE GOT COVID.

BUT WE JUST GOT SOME GUIDANCE THE OTHER DAY THAT YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO ISOLATE IF YOU TEST POSITIVE FOR COVID.

SO I'M NOT SURE THAT IT'S NOT GOING TO REAR ITS UGLY HEAD AGAIN.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO ASK -- WE'VE SPENT A BUNCH OF TIME AT THE TABLE HERE THIS WEEK TALKING ABOUT THE ASPECTS OF AMERICAN LIFE AND OUR SYSTEMS THAT GOT EXPOSED, OR RE-EXPOSED AS A RESULT OF THIS.

I WANT TO STICK WITH YOU FOR A MOMENT, JEN.

WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED FROM THIS?

>> Burrill: THERE'S SO MUCH, RIGHT.

I THINK WE HAVE LEARNED A LOT OF WHAT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING TODAY, THAT WE REALLY ARE NOT FOCUSED ON HUMANITY.

WE ARE REALLY FOCUSED ON PROFIT.

AND EVEN THE COURT SYSTEM, THAT'S NOT KIND OF A PROFIT BASED SYSTEM, IS JUST MOVING THINGS ALONG AND NOT REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE OUTCOMES OR THE JUSTICE, IN TERMS OF THE RESULT.

AND SO I THINK THAT HIGHLIGHTED THE FACT THAT WE HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM PROTECTING THE INDIVIDUAL, WHICH IS WHAT OUR CONSTITUTION IS ABOUT.

IT'S NOT ABOUT PROTECTING THE GOVERNMENT, IT'S ABOUT PROTECTING THE INDIVIDUAL.

AND WE HAVE MOVED SO FAR AWAY FROM THAT IN TERMS OF PROTECTING, YOU KNOW, THE FINANCIAL DOLLAR AND JUST THE PRODUCTIVITY OF IT ALL.

WE SAW A SHIFT IN THE SUPREME COURT SEVERAL YEARS BEFORE COVID THAT WAS FOCUSED ON JUDICIAL ECONOMY, NOT ON THE RIGHTS OF THE INDIVIDUAL, AND I THINK THAT HAS JUST EXACERBATED THROUGH THIS, THAT WE'RE JUST GOING TO MAKE SURE WE'RE STILL CHECKING THE BOXES, THAT WE'VE DONE EVERYTHING WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO AND FORGOT ABOUT THE REAL PURPOSE.

>> Jeff: MICHAEL, I WAS GOING TO END THE SEGMENT WITH A QUESTION SORT OF ALONG THE LINES OF, ARE WE READY FOR WHATEVER 2.0 OF THIS IS.

I THINK WE HAVE WRESTLED THAT QUESTION TO THE GROUND.

WE ARE NOT READY FOR WHATEVER 2.0 IS.

INSTEAD, I'D LIKE TO END BY LETTING YOU BOTH WEIGH IN ON THESE LAST COUPLE OF MINUTES WITH THIS.

WE CAN SPEND FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER ABOUT THE WAY THIS HAS CHANGED OUR POLITICS.

I AM REALLY INTERESTED IN THE WAY THESE FOUR YEARS HAVE CHANGED THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT TRUTH.

HOW HAS THE COVID EXPERIENCE CHANGED THE WAY WE THINK AND TALK ABOUT TRUTH IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> Bird: OH, BOY, AN EASY ONE, RIGHT, THE TRUTH.

>> Jeff: THE FINAL EXAM.

>> Bird: TRUTH.

I THINK WE NEED TO REDEFINE WHAT IT IS, BECAUSE IT'S BECOME SOME SORT OF AN ABSTRACT CONCEPT THAT PEOPLE ARE DEFINING IN A VARIETY OF WAYS.

AND I DON'T -- THE QUOTE THAT COMES TO MIND, AND I'LL PROBABLY END UP IN TROUBLE, BUT THE QUOTE THAT COMES TO MIND IS A QUOTE FROM THE LAKOTA INDIANS BACK IN THE 1800s.

THEY COINED THE PHASE, 'WHITE MAN SPEAKS WITH FORKED TONGUE.'

AND NOT THAT THE WHITE MAN IS THE ONLY ONE THAT SPEAKS WITH A FORKED TONGUE, BUT I THINK THAT, IN FACT, REFLECTED SOMETHING THAT WAS REAL THEN, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS STILL VERY REAL TODAY, THAT TRUTH, WHICH WE TALK ABOUT A LOT.

BUT WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN, AND HOW DOES IT PLAY OUT?

BECAUSE IT'S AN ABSTRACT TERM.

PEOPLE ARE INTERPRETING TRUTH IN ALL KINDS OF WAYS.

>> Jeff: MICHAEL, THAT'S GOOD TROUBLE, IS WHAT I'VE HEARD THAT CALLED.

IF THAT'S GOING TO GET YOU IN TROUBLE, IT'S THE GOOD KIND.

JEN, I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE FINAL WORD ON THAT.

HOW DO YOU THINK THIS HAS IMPACTED THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT WHAT'S REAL AND WHAT'S NOT?

>> Burrill: I THINK IT MAKES US MUCH MORE SKEPTICAL.

AND I THINK SCIENCE HAS ALWAYS BEEN FOCUSED ON THE TRUTH, BUT THE TRUTH CAN CHANGE AS WE LEARN MORE INFORMATION.

AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE WANT OUR LEADERS TO COME OUT AND GIVE THEM A DEFINITIVE ANSWER, AND THAT'S JUST NOT THE WAY SCIENCE WORKS.

SO THEY WERE TRYING TO PROVIDE US WITH THE INFORMATION THAT THEY HAD AT THE TIME, AND AS THEY'VE CONTINUED TO LEARN MORE, IT CHANGES, RIGHT.

AND SO NOW THESE GENERAL PEOPLE THINK, NOT REALLY UNDERSTANDING HOW SCIENCE WORKS, THINK THAT THEY WERE LIED TO ALONG THE WAY, WHICH MAKES THEM DISTRUSTFUL OF ANYTHING THAT'S GOING TO COME OUT OF LONG-TERM RESEARCH, AND I THINK THAT'S CONCERNING.

AND I THINK THAT WILL SPREAD.

I DON'T THINK IT'S JUST GOING TO BE CONTAINED TO SCIENCE.

I THINK IT MAKES A DISTRUST OF INSTITUTIONS AND SYSTEMS, BECAUSE WE DON'T BELIEVE THEM AND WE KNOW THEY HARM PEOPLE.

>> Jeff: I CAN'T THANK YOU ALL ENOUGH FOR THE CONVERSATION TODAY, DIFFICULT AS IT WAS.

I HOPE THAT YOU'LL BOTH COME BACK SOMETIME SO THAT WE CAN CONTINUE IT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Burrill: THANKS, JEFF.

>> Bird: THANKS FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.

>> Lou: THANKS AGAIN TO JENNIFER BURRILL AND MICHAEL BIRD FOR THAT CONVERSATION.

IF YOU THINK YOU'RE EXHIBITING ANY LONG COVID SYMPTOMS, FROM FATIGUE TO BRAIN FOG, PLEASE CONSIDER VISITING YOUR PRIMARY CARE DOCTOR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY THE VIEWERS LIKE YOU.