♪ MUSIC REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

>>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

I SAY THIS A LOT, BUT THIS TIME IT IS REALLY TRUE, ONE OF MY FAVORITE AUTHORS OF ALL TIMES HAS JOINED US TODAY, CRAIG CHILDS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>CRAIG: I AM HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>>LORENE: WELL THEY CALL YOU THE 21ST CENTURY BARD OF THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST.

YOU ARE AN AUTHOR, EXPLORER, STORYTELLER, AND NATURALIST, YOU HAVE A NICHE OF KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED, PHYSICALLY, PERSONALLY THIS IS NOT BOOK LEARNING, THIS IS ANCIENT ROCK ART LEARNING, YOU, OF COURSE, HAVE BEEN WELL REWARDED FOR YOUR WORK.

YOU GOT THE SPIRIT OF THE WEST LITERARY ACHIEVEMENT AWARD AND THE ROWELL AWARD FOR THE ART OF ADVENTURE.

YOU GOT TWO SIGURD OLSON NATURE WRITING AWARDS AND APOCALYPTIC PLANET , ONE OF MY FAVORITES, GOT THE ORION BOOK AWARD, OH MY LORD.

YOU WRITE FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, OUTSIDE MAGAZINE, MEN'S JOURNAL , NEW YORK TIMES , I SAID THAT, LA TIMES , YOU ARE EVERYWHERE.

THEY CALL YOU "A MODERN-DAY DESERT FATHER," HOW DOES THAT FEEL?

>>CRAIG: I AM A FATHER AND I TRAVEL IN THE DESERT, SO IT MAKES SENSE TO ME.

>>LORENE: THE NEW YORK TIMES MUST HAVE NAILED IT.

BUT YOUR WRITING IS ABOUT HUMANS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO LANDSCAPE THAT YOU BRING SO MUCH TO IT.

YOU HAD SAID IN REGARD TO ONE OF YOUR EARLY BOOKS, HOUSE OF RAIN , WE WILL TALK ABOUT, THAT YOU TRAVEL THE INTERSTITIAL SPACES, THE CRACKS IN THE SIDEWALK, THE CRACKS BETWEEN WORLDS, THE CRACKS IN TIME BETWEEN PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE.

SO, QUICKLY YOUR BOOKS.

EVERY ONE OF YOUR BOOKS HAS MADE A DIFFERENCE IN MY LIFE, SO.

>>CRAIG: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: THE EARLY ONE IS THE SECRET KNOWLEDGE OF WATER , WHAT IS THIS ABOUT?

>>CRAIG: IT IS ABOUT FINDING WATER IN THE DESERT, FLASH FLOODS, WATERHOLES, SPRINGS, JUST PERSONAL INTIMATE ENCOUNTERS AND SOMETIMES DESPERATE ENCOUNTERS WHEN TRYING TO FIND WATER.

>>LORENE: YES.

ANOTHER ONE THAT I LOVE IS FINDERS KEEPERS: A TALE OF ARCHEOLOGICAL PLUNDER AND OBSESSION AND YOU DEAL WITH WHO OWNS THE PAST.

>>CRAIG: YEAH AND THAT WAS A STICKY, STICKY BOOK TO WRITE.

>>LORENE: I GUESS EVERYBODY, FINDERS KEEPERS , I MUST OWN IT NOW.

>>CRAIG: YEAH.

>>LORENE: ATLAS OF THE LOST WORLD: TRAVELS IN ICE AGE AMERICA .

SO WHAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT YOU ACTUALLY WALK WHERE EARLY MAN WAS SUPPOSED TO WALK AND YOU EVEN DID IT WITH YOUR FAMILY AT ONE POINT.

BECAUSE IF PEOPLE WERE COMING OVER THE BERING STRAIT, THEY WEREN'T LIKE A BUNCH OF DUDES, THEY WERE BRINGING THEIR FAMILIES FOR A BETTER PLACE TO LIVE.

>>CRAIG: YEAH, A BUNCH OF DUDES IS A DEAD END.

FUN, I AM SURE.

>>LORENE: VERY UNSCHOLARLY OF ME, THIS BOOK IS PHENOMENAL, HOUSE OF RAIN : TRACKING A VANISHED CIVILIZATION ACROSS THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST .

YOU WALKED, TELL ME WHAT YOU DID AND HOW SUPREME >>CRAIG: YEAH THAT WAS ABOUT A THOUSAND MILES OF WALKING FROM CHACO INTO COLORADO, FOUR CORNERS, DOWN THROUGH SOUTHERN UTAH AND ACROSS A LOT OF ARIZONA INTO THE SIERRA MADRE IN MEXICO FOLLOWING ANCIENT MIGRATION ROUTES.

>>LORENE: YEAH AND IT'S A RIVETING READ AND IT MAKES YOU REALLY RETHINK ALL OF THE POPULAR STORIES ABOUT WHERE WE CAME FROM AND HOW WE GOT HERE.

THE BEST ANIMAL STORIES I KNOW, THE ANIMAL DIALOGUES , THIS IS A FABULOUS BOOK AND VERY GOOD FOR YOUNG READERS TOO BECAUSE THERE IS NO DISNEYFICATION OF BAMBI IN YOUR WORK, THIS IS FROM YOUR OWN NATURALIST'S OBSERVATIONS.

AND THE ONE, APOCALYPTIC PLANE .

>>CRAIG: YES >>LORENE: SO THEY SAY THE WORLD WILL END IN FIRE AND ICE AND YOU SAY, "WELL LET'S JUST GO EVERYWHERE ON THE EARTH TO THE FIERIEST FIRE AND THE ICIEST ICE."

WHAT DID YOU FIND ABOUT THE APOCALYPSE AND THE APOCALYPTIC PLANET ?

>>CRAIG: YEAH THAT WAS, I WROTE THAT BOOK TO UNDERSTAND HOW IT ENDS, HOW THE WORLD ENDS, BUT ON A BIG SCALE, I'M LOOKING BACK FOUR BILLION YEARS AND GOING TO LANDSCAPES THAT ARE THERE NOW AND THAT LOOK LIKE WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE AND I GUESS MY POINT IN THE WHOLE BOOK WAS TO SAY, THE APOCALYPSE IS ALWAYS HAPPENING, IT IS ALWAYS WAITING, IT IS ALWAYS EMERGING.

IT IS NOT JUST A MOMENT, IT IS SOMETHING THAT ALMOST DRIVES THE PLANET AND THEY ARE SO BIG THAT YOU DON'T ALWAYS KNOW THAT YOU ARE INSIDE OF ONE.

I WOULD SAY THAT WE ARE IN ONE RIGHT NOW BUT YOU KNOW THESE THINGS CAN TAKE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

>>LORENE: THAT IS WHAT I WAS RELIEVED TO FIND THAT IT IS A SLOW PROCESS, IN GEOLOGICAL TIME.

IT IS NOT LIKE, OH, IT'S TUESDAY, IT MUST BE THE APOCALYPSE.

>>CRAIG: THERE ARE A LOT OF BOOMS AND POPS AND THINGS CHANGE, BUT THE WORLD DOESN'T END OR THIS IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE WHEN IT ENDS.

>>LORENE: NOW I WANT TO TALK WITH YOU AND YOU GET TO TALK NOW ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK, TRACING TIME: SEASONS OF ROCK ART IN THE COLORADO PLATEAU .

BUT THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARY BOOK BECAUSE FROM YOUR DECADES OF OBSERVATION AND EXPLORATION, YOU ARE TRYING TO TELL US THAT THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP AND THAT THIS IS A BOOK, A WORD BOOK ABOUT ROCK ART, NOT A PICTURE BOOK ABOUT ROCK ART.

AND THE PICTURES THAT YOU DO HAVE I MIGHT ADD, ARE QUILL AND INK DRAWINGS BY GARY GACKSTATTER.

>>CRAIG: YEAH.

>>LORENE: THEY ARE PHENOMENAL, THEY ARE HANDMADE JUST LIKE THE ART IS HANDMADE.

SO, TALK TO ME ABOUT, WELL GIVE US A LITTLE ABOUT WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PETROGLYPH AND PICTOGRAM AND GIVE US ROCK ART 101.

>>CRAIG: WELL JUST SIMPLY, ROCK ART IS EITHER A PETROGLYPH OR A PICTOGRAPH AND A PETROGLYPH IS PECKED, SO YOU ARE ACTUALLY BREAKING THROUGH THE ROCK SURFACE, A PICTOGRAPH IS PAINTED OR IT HAS PIGMENT IN IT.

SO REALLY DIFFERENT EXPRESSIONS BECAUSE ONE USES COLOR AND ANOTHER JUST USES NEGATIVE SPACE.

SO PETROGLYPHS, SOMEBODY USED A, USUALLY A BONE AWL WITH A HAMMER STONE AND JUST PECKING ONE LITTLE KNOCK AFTER ANOTHER AND FILLING AN IMAGE WITH A THOUSAND LITTLE PECK MARKS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

AND I LOVE WHEN YOU THINK OF THE POSITIVE, I LOVE THE RED OCHRE HANDPRINTS.

AND ONE OF MY FAVORITE PHOTOGRAPHS OF YOU IS I THINK IS IN ATLAS OF THE LOST WORLD , YOU HAVE RED OCHRE MARKS ON YOUR FACE, FABULOUS PICTURE, SORRY I DIDN'T BRING IT.

>>CRAIG: YEAH THAT'S THE COLOR.

MOST OF THE ROCK ART, MOST OF THE PICTOGRAPHS AT LEAST ARE RED, THAT OCHRE RED, BUT THEN YOU SEE YELLOW, BLUE, GREEN, SOME JUST FANTASTIC PANELS, FIREWORK COLORS.

>>LORENE: OH, MY GOSH, OH, MY GOODNESS.

SO THE PROBLEM THAT I HAD WITH ASKING YOU BECAUSE I LOVE THIS BOOK, WAS THIS IS LIKE A TOME POEM AND YET YOU COMMUNICATED THE EXPERIENCE OF ROCK ART, BUT TELEVISION IS VISUAL.

>>CRAIG: YES.

>>LORENE: AND I WOULD HAVE TO SHOW SOME PICTURES BUT, SO YOU LEARN TO UNDERSTAND THE SYMBOLS, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT QUITE UNIVERSAL BUT THEY TRANSCEND A LOT OF CULTURES.

AND YOU SAY THAT TRACING TIME IS ABOUT A WAY TO EXPERIENCING ROCK ART NOT ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS.

SO WHAT DO PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW TO EXPERIENCE ROCK ART, WE HAVE SOME PICTURES IF YOU CAN TALK ABOUT MAYBE SOME OF THE SYMBOLS IN THEIR COMMUNAL AND MULTI-CULTURAL SENSE NOT EXACTLY A CIRCLE IS ALWAYS THE SUN.

>>CRAIG: YEAH.

I THINK WE FIND IT EASY TO GO, OH, THAT SYMBOL MEANS THIS THING, BUT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A SYMBOL THAT WAS PUT ON A ROCK 2,000 YEARS AGO, YOU KNOW THOSE STORIES HAVE CHANGED A LOT SINCE THEN AND THIS IS NATIVE AMERICAN ROCK ART, UTE, DINE, PUEBLO, APACHE AND SO YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS CENTURIES, THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD AND TO SAY WHAT IT MEANS I THINK EVEN IF YOU HAVE GONE BACK TO THAT TIME AND SAID, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN, SOMEBODY WOULD HAVE GIVEN YOU AN ANSWER AND SOMEBODY ELSE WOULD HAVE GONE, NO, IT'S ACTUALLY MORE THIS.

I THINK IN A QUINTESSENTIAL SENSE IT'S ART, IT MAY BE CONVEYING A MESSAGE, IT MAY BE A MEMORIALIZATION OF SOMETHING OF A MOMENT OR MAYBE A PRAYER, BUT IT IS ART, IT'S A VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF WHATEVER THEY WERE DOING AND WHAT I TRY TO CONVEY IN THIS BOOK IS PROBABLY PRETTY SIMPLE, THAT THIS STUFF HAS MEANING.

YOU MAY NOT KNOW WHAT THE MEANING IS, BUT THAT IS NOT SO IMPORTANT, IT IS MORE THAT YOU KNOW IT IS HERE FOR A REASON.

IT IS IN THIS PLACE, YOU ARE IN A CANYON AND YOU LOOK AT THE LANDSCAPE AROUND YOU AND GO, WHY IS THAT THERE?

AND IT WAS PLACED THERE WITH GREAT EFFORT AND SPECIFICITY, THEY MEANT FOR THAT TO BE IN THAT PLACE AND I TRY TO TEASE OUT SOME MEANING HERE AND THERE TO SAY THIS MOTIF REPEATS ITSELF OVER A DISTANCE, BUT WHAT THE MOTIF IS WE CAN HINT AT IT, BUT I KIND OF LIKE KNOWING THAT WE CAN'T KNOW IT.

>>LORENE: AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DO SO BEAUTIFULLY IN TRACING TIME IS YOU HAVE MEMBERS HERE IN A HOPI AREA, THE HOPI TRIBE AND SOME OF THEM COME UP AND ACTUALLY TALK TO THE PETROGLYPH BECAUSE IT'S LIKE FAMILY, YOU KNOW.

WHEN YOU TALK TO COMMUNITY MEMBERS, ARCHEOLOGISTS AND A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO BRING A LOT TO IT BUT THEY DON'T SAY, "IT ONLY MEANS THIS," AND THAT'S TO ME THE REAL BEAUTY OF THAT.

ALSO, YOUR EMPHASIS THAT THEY REALLY SHOULD HANG OUT WITH THEM, YOU SHOULDN'T JUST WALK THROUGH AND SAY, OH YEAH.

>>CRAIG: YEAH IF YOU HAVE TIME.

>>LORENE: IF YOU HAVE TIME.

>>CRAIG: TO STOP AND REALLY SPEND TIME.

I WAS FORTUNATE IN THIS BOOK.

>>LORENE: THIS WAS YOUR PANDEMIC PROJECT, RIGHT?

YOU HAD TIME.

>>CRAIG: IT WAS, THE FIRST CHAPTER WAS THE START OF THE PANDEMIC AND WE WERE OUT IN THE BACK COUNTRY ON A TRIP AND ENCOUNTERING ROCK ART ALL OVER THE PLACE AND THEN COMING OUT TO THE CRAZINESS AND THAT IS WHEN I PITCHED THIS BOOK.

I SAID YOU KNOW IT LOOKS LIKE I WILL BE SPENDING SOME TIME HERE WITHOUT OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, SO I MIGHT AS WELL BE OUT GATHERING AND SO I SPENT A LOT OF TIME SITTING AT PANELS, ROCK ART PANELS, WATCHING SUNRISES, WATCHING FOR HOURS, DAYS, WEEKS AT THE SAME PLACE TO SEE HOW IT CHANGES IN THE LIGHT.

>>LORENE: YOU ARE PARTICULARLY FOND OF LATE AFTERNOON DECEMBER LIGHT.

>>CRAIG: YEAH, FOUR O'CLOCK.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>CRAIG: IN THE AFTERNOON IN DECEMBER.

THAT'S WHEN AND I HAVE BEEN WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING THIS IS THE GOLDEN HOUR, THIS IS IT AND IT IS RIGHT.

ON A CLEAR DAY THE SUN IS COMING IN LOWER THAN IT WOULD IN THE SUMMER AND IT JUST, THE WALLS GO VOLCANIC AND THE PETROGLYPHS JUST SPRING OUT.

>>LORENE: WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH CRAIG CHILDS ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, TRACING TIME , BUT ALSO ABOUT HOW WE CAN ENRICH OUR OWN EXPERIENCES OF OBSERVING ROCK ART AND LET THE LAYERS OF MEANING, WAYS TO BE OPEN TO THE LAYERS OF MEANING.

I HAVE A PILE OF SOME PETROGLYPHS AND PICTOGRAMS HERE, IF THERE'S ANY IN PARTICULAR THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO INTRODUCE US, NOT TO SAY THIS IS ALWAYS THE SUN OR THIS IS ALWAYS, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DUCK HEADED MEN ARE BUT I LOVE THEM, I JUST LOVE THEM.

BUT HOW THEY RELATE TO EACH OTHER, HOW ONE CULTURE WOULD DO IT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY, BUT ONE OF YOUR BOOKS IS THE SECRET KNOWLEDGE OF WATER , LIFE IN THE DESERT IS ALWAYS ABOUT WATER OR THE ABSENCE OF WATER AND DO THESE ADDRESS THE BURNING ISSUE OF LIFE IN THE DESERT, ANYWAY, IF YOU WANT, YOU CAN TALK ABOUT IT IF YOU FEEL LIKE IT.

>>CRAIG: YEAH AND I DO TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION THERE.

I THINK THAT THE ROCK ART REALLY DOES, MOST OF IT HAS TO DO WITH RAIN AND CLOUDS AND THE MORE I GOT INTO IT ESPECIALLY WITH ZUNI AND HOPI, TALKING TO HOPI ARCHEOLOGISTS, HOPI ANTHROPOLOGISTS AND CLAN PRIESTS AND THOSE ZUNI FARMERS, I JUST LEARNED MORE AND MORE ABOUT IMAGES OF RAIN AND CLOUDS AND IT MAKES SENSE THAT HERE YOU WOULD BE WHAT'S YOUR MAJOR CONVERSATION, IT IS THE SKY WITH POTENTIAL RAIN.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>CRAIG: AND SO EVEN WHEN I SEE SOMETHING LIKE THIS, I THINK THERE IS RAIN IN THAT.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>CRAIG: SOMEHOW, YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS I DON'T KNOW, IT COULD BE A WEAVING PATTERN, IT'S A PICTOGRAPH THAT A FRIEND OF MINE ACTUALLY FOUND ON HORSEBACK WHILE RUNNING CATTLE AND HE ENDED UP IN A SIDE CANYON AND FOUND THAT NOT TOO LONG AGO AND I SEE THAT AND I, YOU KNOW, IS THIS A CEREMONIAL SITE, IS IT A DEPICTION OF A BLANKET THAT SOMEBODY WOULD HAVE USED, A LOT OF POSSIBILITIES, I DON'T WANT TO COME IN AND SAY, "OH, THAT IS WHAT THIS THING IS."

>>LORENE: YES.

YOU WILL BE HAPPY TO KNOW WE ARE ABLE TO INSERT THE JPEGS, SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO HOLD THOSE UP ALL THE TIME.

>>CRAIG: GOTCHA.

YEAH, DO YOU WANT ME TO LIFT ANOTHER ONE UP?

>>LORENE: YEAH.

THESE ARE THE ONES THAT YOU HAD SENT ME.

>>CRAIG: THIS IS A SHIELD FIGURE AND YOU CAN KIND OF SEE A CAT-EARED PERSON BEHIND IT AND LEGS STICKING OUT THE BOTTOM BUT THE CIRCLE IS A SHIELD AND IT IS A CLASSIC.

AGAIN, WHAT DOES IT MEAN, CLEARLY IT MEANS SOMEBODY HOLDING A SHIELD, BUT IT COULD BE A RAIN SHIELD, IT COULD BE NOT NECESSARILY ABOUT WARFARE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF SHIELD IMAGES THAT DON'T TIE DIRECTLY TO WARFARE AND THEN THERE ARE OTHERS WHERE YOU CAN SEE SPEARS AND WEAPONS.

BUT THEN IS THIS SOME SKY SPIRIT, RAIN BRINGER OR SOMEBODY IN A STORY WHO WENT ON A MISSION CARRYING A SHIELD?

THAT'S WHY YOU CAN'T REALLY SAY WHAT IT IS, YOU CAN LOOK IN THE DIRECTION AND GO, THAT'S A SHIELD, BUT THEN HOW DOES THAT UNFOLD?

>>LORENE: YES, BUT TO BE OPEN TO ALL OF THAT.

THERE ARE LITTLE CREATURES I ASSUME IS A DEER HAS A LOT OF LEGS AND A LOT OF SPIKEY THINGS ON THEIR HEADS.

>>CRAIG: YEAH AND NEXT TO IT IS ANOTHER SHIELD THAT JUST GOT STARTED AND WAS NEVER FINISHED WHICH MAKES ME LOOK AT IT AND GO, WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THE MAKING OF THIS ONE AND THAT ONE, BECAUSE YOU WERE GOING TO MAKE ANOTHER ONE.

>>LORENE: YEAH, THERE ARE MYSTERIES ON SO MANY LEVELS.

>>CRAIG: YEAH.

>>LORENE: IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU WOULD PARTICULARLY LIKE TO TALK ABOUT?

>>CRAIG: WELL, THIS ONE IS FROM NEAR WHERE I LIVE IN SOUTHWEST COLORADO AND I'VE BEEN GOING BACK AND LOOKING AT IT IN DIFFERENT SEASONS AND I REALIZE THAT THE LINES POINT TO POINTS ON THE HORIZON WHERE THE SUN AT DIFFERENT, THIS WAS WINTER SOLSTICE AND IT SETS RIGHT AT THE CLIFF EDGE AND THE LINE POINTS TOWARD IT, SO THAT'S MOSTLY LIKELY A CALENDAR.

SO WHEN WE LOOK AT THESE THINGS, WE SAY WHAT DOES IT MEAN.

YOU MIGHT HAVE TO COME BACK OVER YEARS TO WATCH HOW THE LIGHT CHANGES AND THEN YOU LEARN THAT IT HAS SOME RELEVANCE WHICH THAT... >>LORENE: CALENDAR STONE.

>>CRAIG: YEAH, THIS IS ONE THAT I VISITED LAST SUMMER.

TWICE A YEAR THAT DAGGER OF SUNLIGHT REACHES IN AND TOUCHES THE CENTER OF THAT SPIRAL AND IT IS NEAR A SITE OF THOUSANDS OF ROOMS OF OLD PUEBLOS 800 TO 1,000 YEARS OLD AND YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING, YOU KNOW THAT THIS WAS INTENTIONAL.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>CRAIG: THERE IS NO QUESTIONS.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>CRAIG: AND WHAT DID IT MEAN?

DID IT MEAN THIS IS THE CENTER PLACE, THIS IS A PLACE TO BUILD A COMMUNITY AND LIVE OR WAS IT A CALENDAR OR...TO SAY IT WAS ONE THING AND NOT THE OTHER I THINK IT IS FALSE.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>CRAIG: I THINK SOME PEOPLE AT THE TIME WOULD HAVE SAID, THIS TELLS US WHERE THE CENTER OF OUR COMMUNITY IS AND SOMEBODY ELSE WOULD HAVE SAID, WELL, ACTUALLY I USE IT FOR FARMING.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

I KNOW THERE'S FAJADA BUTTE, IS THAT THE NAME OF THIS?

>>CRAIG: YEAH, YEAH.

>>LORENE: THAT'S NOT FAJADA BUTTE.

>>CRAIG: NO, BUT FAJADA BUTTE HAS A SPIRAL.

>>LORENE: THE SUN DAGGER.

>>CRAIG: YEAH, VERY ACCURATE SOLSTICE AND EQUINOX MARKERS.

THE LIGHT THAT COMES IN ON DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE SPIRAL OR THROUGH THE MIDDLE.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS YOU TRACE TIME THE WAY YOU DO IS TO INVITE PEOPLE TO NOT WANT TO SUPERIMPOSE A STRICT MEANING ON EVERYTHING BUT JUST TO BE THINKING ABOUT THE LIFE AND TIMES, THE WEATHER, THE CLIMATE, WHAT THEY WERE EXPERIENCING AND THEN HOW WE RESONATE WITH THAT, WITHOUT HAVING TO HAVE IT BE EXACTLY ONE THING OR THE OTHER.

I DON'T KNOW IF THERE ARE ANYMORE OF THESE, IS THAT MY DUCK HEADED PERSON?

>>CRAIG: YEAH, THIS IS A FIGURE IN THE BACK OF THE CANYON, A PICTOGRAPH IN RED AND IT'S A PERSON STANDING UNDERNEATH A DUCK.

>>LORENE: AH HA.

>>CRAIG: AND OFTEN THEY ARE, ESPECIALLY IN A CERTAIN AREA AROUND THE FOUR CORNERS, YOU GET HUMANS WITH EITHER A DUCK FOR A HEAD OR A DUCK ON THE HEAD.

AND SO I TRACKED THAT DOWN THROUGH ZUNI STORIES AND OLD ETHNOGRAPHY REPORTS, FOUND LITTLE BREAD CRUMBS OF INFORMATION SAYING THIS IS ACTUALLY A THING.

THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A SOCIETY 2,000 YEARS AGO THAT WAS RELATED TO A STORY ABOUT A PERSON AND A DUCK AND YOU KNOW WE SEE DUCKS, MAYBE A DAFFY DUCK AND THEN YOU HAVE TO KIND OF GO, OKAY, THIS IS NOT DISNEY, THIS IS SYMBOLIC FROM A DIFFERENT TIME.

>>LORENE: BUT SOMEBODY WAS TAKING IT FROM SYMBOLISM TO REAL LIVE THAT THEY WERE FLOATING IN THE RIVER THAT THE DUCK ON THEIR HEAD TRYING TO ATTRACT OF COURSE THE OTHER DUCKS, THAT JUST DOESN'T SEEM VERY LIKELY.

>>CRAIG: THIS IS MORE ASSOCIATED WITH A STORY OF SOMEBODY JOURNEYING INTO THE UNDERWORLD AND THEIR COMPANION IS A DUCK WHICH IS THE ANIMAL THAT DIVES FROM THE SURFACE DOWN BELOW AND THEN COMES BACK UP.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

AND ALL SHAMANIC ANIMALS, BE THEY SNAKES OR BATS OR DUCKS, CROSS THE LINE FROM ONE WORLD TO ANOTHER.

>>CRAIG: YEAH.

>>LORENE: IT IS VERY, VERY POWERFUL.

>>CRAIG: YEAH.

AND THIS IS IN THE BACK OF THE CANYON IN DRIPPING SPRINGS AND YOU HAVE TO WONDER IS THIS THE UNDERWORLD THAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT IN THE STORY.

>>LORENE: HMMM.

I WANT TO TALK QUICKLY ABOUT ARTIFACTS AND YOUR RELATIONSHIP TO ARTIFACTS.

I READ ONE OF YOUR EARLY STORIES ABOUT THE SEED POT.

>>CRAIG: YEAH.

>>LORENE: SO IT IS A BEAUTIFUL STORY, CAN YOU TELL US, WE ONLY HAVE A FEW MINUTES LEFT.

I WANT YOU TO DO THE NORTH ARIZONA STORY, THE SEED POT IF YOU CAN.

>>CRAIG: YES.

YEAH THIS SEED JAR I FOUND WITH A FRIEND IN THE BACK COUNTRY AND IT'S PROBABLY 900 YEARS OLD AND UNLESS SOMEBODY LEFT IT UNDER A LEDGE LONG, LONG AGO.

THE ORIGINAL USERS AND WITH MOST THINGS THAT I FIND OR EVERYTHING THAT I FIND, I LEAVE IT WHERE IT IS BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE ENOUGH HAS COME OUT, ENOUGH IS IN MUSEUMS AND COLLECTIONS.

BUT I SEE THAT AND I GO, THAT FITS IN THIS LANDSCAPE, THAT'S MORE ABOUT THIS PLACE THAN IT IS ABOUT ME TURNING IT IN AND SO WE LEFT IT THERE.

BUT THEN YEARS LATER I WENT BACK, ELEVEN YEARS LATER WE WENT BACK WITH A CREW FROM RADIO LAB BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO KNOW.

THEY SAID, HEY WOULD YOU GO BACK AND SEE IF IT IS THERE?

AND WE WENT ON A MULTIDAY TREK AND WENT BACK TO THE EXACT PLACE AND WE KNEW EXACTLY WHERE IT WAS AND A ROCKSLIDE, THE WHOLE CLIFF HAD FALLEN IN, BUT IT MUST HAVE HAPPENED RIGHT AFTER WE ORIGINALLY FOUND IT BECAUSE THE PLANTS HAD STARTED GROWING BACK UP.

SO AT FIRST IT WAS A LITTLE CONFUSING, WE WERE WALKING AROUND GOING SOMETHING HAS CHANGED AND THEN I REALIZED, OH THIS WHOLE PLACE HAS CHANGED.

>>LORENE: AN UNANTICIPATED ENDING.

>>CRAIG: YEAH SO THAT LITTLE VESSEL WAS DESTROYED, I IMAGINED OBLITERATED.

WE FOUND WHAT WE THINK WAS THE EXACT SPOT AND THE BOULDER PROTECTING IT WERE GONE.

>>LORENE: ANOTHER STORY THAT I LOVE, YOU OFTEN FIND YOURSELF IN REMOTE CANYONS, PARTICULARLY NORTHERN ARIZONA AND EVERYWHERE, BUT YOU FOUND ONE THAT HAD AN EXTINCT SMALL TRIBE, CLAN, OR CULTURE HAD LIVED THERE.

>>CRAIG: YEAH.

>>LORENE: WHAT DIDN'T YOU FIND THERE?

>>CRAIG: ARTIFACTS, POT SHARDS, THESE CLIFF DWELLINGS HAD BEEN DUG UP, BURIALS HAD BEEN TAKEN OUT, SOME HAD BEEN EXCAVATED BY ARCHEOLOGISTS, MOST HAD BEEN EXCAVATED LOOKED LIKE POT HUNTERS WHO WERE JUST DIGGING HOLES AND PULLING OUT ARTIFACTS.

AND IT WAS A VERY PARTICULAR KIND OF POTTERY, A POLYCHROME THAT I WAS STUDYING AND THEY WERE ALL GONE AND THEN I ENDED UP FINDING A VESSEL IN A PUBLIC SPACE SOMEWHERE AVOIDING SAYING WHERE IT WAS AND IT WAS THIS STYLE.

IT LOOKED LIKE A WHOLE BURIAL FROM THIS STYLE CALLED SALADO POLYCHROME OR A PARTICULAR KIND OF POLYCHROME, AND I ENDED UP TAKING THAT VESSEL AND RETURNING IT TO THAT PLACE AND TAKING IT ON A TREK IN MY PACK AND PUTTING IT BACK INTO THAT LANDSCAPE, BECAUSE I JUST SAW IT AS SO MUCH HAS BEEN TAKEN?

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>CRAIG: SO MUCH IS LEAVING THE LAND AND I HAD TO, WHEN I SAW THIS IN A DISPLAY CASE, I JUST WENT, THIS ISN'T RIGHT, THIS CAME FROM A PLACE AND IT HAD BEEN POT HUNTED AND IT WAS IN THEIR DISPLAY CASE IT WAS CLEAR THAT PARTICULAR POT HAD BEEN SPLIT IN HALF BY A SHOVEL AND THEN IT WAS PUT BACK TOGETHER WITH MASKING TAPE ON THE INSIDE.

AND SO I THOUGHT THIS A GOOD ONE TO TAKE BACK TO AT LEAST SOME KIND OF GESTURE, SOME OFFERING.

I DON'T RECOMMEND STEALING ARTIFACTS FROM ANY PLACE AND I DID AFTERWARDS, I STILL WONDER WAS THAT RIGHT THING TO DO.

>>LORENE: EXCEPT THAT PEOPLE REALLY UNDERSTAND YOU CANNOT TAKE EVERYTHING FROM A PEOPLE, YOU'RE ERASING THEIR EXISTENCE, THEY HAVE TO HAVE SOME EMBLEMATIC SOMETHING OF THEMSELVES.

>>CRAIG: YEAH AND THAT'S WHAT THESE THINGS ON THE LAND ARE THOSE ORIGINAL CLAIMS THAT THIS COMES FROM A CULTURE THAT WAS HERE AT THAT TIME AND STILL HAS LIVING MEMBERS ALL OVER NORTH AMERICA.

LET'S NOT TAKE EVERYTHING BECAUSE OTHERWISE HOW ARE THEY GOING TO FIND OUT THEIR WAY BACK, HOW ARE WE GOING TO KNOW WHERE WE ARE?

WE ALL ARE RELATING TO EACH OTHER AND TO OUR LANDSCAPE AND IF WE START STRIPPING IT THEN IT IS HARD TO HAVE THAT RELATIONSHIP.

>>LORENE: SADLY, WE HAVE COME TO THE END OF OUR TIME.

JUST ONE QUICK THING, JUST 30 SECONDS, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DEFACING, HAVE BEEN PUTTING GRAFFITI ON SOME OF THESE WONDERFUL ROCK ART SITES.

HOW DO THEY NOT KNOW THAT IT'S THEIR OWN HISTORY THEY ARE ERASING?

>>CRAIG: YEAH, I THINK IT IS THAT THEY DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW THE BIGGER CONTEXT, THAT THEY DON'T REALIZE THEIR LIVES ARE ABOUT THAT LONG AND THE LIFE OF THIS ROCK ART PANEL WILL LIVE ON FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS UNLESS YOU WRECK IT RIGHT NOW AND WHAT RIGHT DO WE HAVE IN THIS BRIEF MOMENT OF BEING ALIVE TO CHANGE SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN HERE FOR THAT LONG.

>>LORENE: WELL YOU HAVE CERTAINLY MADE MY BRIEF MOMENT OF BEING ALIVE SO WONDERFUL, I LOVE ALL OF YOUR BOOKS.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT TRACING TIME, SEASONS OF ROCK ART IN THE COLORADO PLATEAU .

OUR GUEST TODAY IS CRAIG CHILDS.

I URGE OUR AUDIENCE TO START READING YOUR BOOKS, ONCE THEY READ ONE THEY'LL READ THEM ALL.

I THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DO FOR US.

>>CRAIG: THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK, LORENE.

>>LORENE: IT'S BEEN A REAL PLEASURE, SEE YOU NEXT TRIP.

>>CRAIG: YES.

>>LORENE: AND I AM LORENE MILLS AND I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON A VERY SPECIAL EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

♪ MUSIC