>> WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT WOMEN, THE MASS INCARCERATION OF WOMEN AND THE FACTS THAT HAS -- EFFECTS IT HAS ON OUR COMMUNITIES.

[♪♪] >> HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME TO THE CONTRARY.

THIS WEEK, A CONVERSATION WITH PRISON REFORM ADVOCATE USAN BURTON.

SHE COMES TO HER ACTIVISM FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

A COMPELLING STORY SHE TELLS IN HER NEW BOOK "BECOMING MS. BURTON FROM PRISON TO RECOVERY TO LEADING THE FIGHT FOR INCARCERATED WOMEN."

WELCOME MS. BURTON, HOW ARE YOU?

>> I AM GOOD.

THANK YOU SO MUCH BONNIE FOR HAVING ME HERE.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN CALLED A NATIONAL TREASURE, THE REINCARNATION OF HARRIET TUBMAN.

YOU HAVE WON BAZILLIONS OF AWARDS FOR YOUR WORK.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR WORK AND WE'LL GET TO HOW YOU CAME TO IT.

>> MY WORK IS WITH FORMER INCARCERATED WOMEN.

I'M CENTERED IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY IN SOUTH LOS ANGELES.

AND IT'S TO HELP WOMEN MAKE THE TRANSITION.

IT'S TO HELP WOMEN MAKE THE TRANSITION FROM PRISONS AND JAILS BACK TO THE COMMUNITY, REUNITING THEM WITH THEIR CHILDREN, HELPING THEM ENROLL IN HIGHER EDUCATION, AND JUST GOING TO WORK AND GETTING SETTLED BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY.

>> YOU, YOURSELF WERE IN PRISON FOR A LONGTIME >> YES.

>> HOW LONG?

>> I WAS IN A REVOLVING DOOR OF INCARCERATION FOR ALMOST 20 YEARS.

AND I JUST FEEL LIKE HAD THERE BEEN SOMEONE THERE TO HELP ME MAKE THE TRANSITION FROM PRISON BACK TO THE COMMUNITY, THAT I MIGHT NOT HAVE RESID RATED I COULD HAVE CAME BACK AND GOT YOU KNOW, ACCLIMATED BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY AND NOT SUFFERED SO MANY PRISON SENTENCES FOR SO LONG.

>> TELL US ABOUT YOUR LIFE STORY.

YOU WERE RAPED THE FIRST TIME AT AGE FOUR, CORRECT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, MY LIFE PRIOR TO INCARCERATION WAS FULL OF TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES, CHILD ABUSE, MOLESTATION, VIOLENCE AND UP UNTIL THE POINT THAT MY SON WAS KILLED AND THAT JUST KIND OF SENT ME DOWN A SPIRAL OF ADDICTION AND THEN TO INCARCERATION.

>> WHERE WERE YOUR PARENTS WHEN ALL OF THIS WAS GOING ON?

>> SO, YOU KNOW, MY MOTHER AND FATHER CAME FROM TEXAS.

THEY LEFT TEXAS LOOKING FOR A BETTER LIFE.

LET ME JUST SAY THEY RAN FROM TEXAS, ESCAPING RACISM, SLAVERY, ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WAS REALLY RAMPANT IN THE SOUTH, LOOKING FOR A BETTER LIFE.

AND THEY SETTLED IN THE HOUSING PROJECTS OF EAST LOS ANGELES.

AND I DON'T THINK THEY WERE ACTUALLY ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE COMPLICATIONS OF THAT HOUSING PROJECTS.

MANY PEOPLE LEFT THE SOUTH DURING THE 40s, 50s AND 60s, LOOKING FOR A BETTER PLACE.

LOOKING FOR A DIFFERENT LIFE.

RUNNING FROM THE SOUTH.

AND THERE WAS A DIFFERENT TYPE OF AWARENESS THAT NEEDED TO BE DEVELOPED IN THE CITY.

MY MOTHER AND FATHER WERE PRESENT BUT THERE WERE JUST MANY COMPLICATIONS AND HARDSHIPS AND THAT NOT TO SAY THOSE COMPLICATIONS AND HARDSHIPS DO NOT EXIST TODAY.

THE FACE OF IT HAS JUST CHANGED.

>> PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT THE VIOLENCE YOU SUFFERED AS A CHILD AND HOW IT AFFECTED YOU AND LATER ON HOW DID YOU EVER GET PAST IT?

>> YOU KNOW, WE THINK OF VIOLENCE AND WE TALK ABOUT YOU KNOW, PHYSICAL VIOLENCE, VERBAL VIOLENCE, AND THEN THERE'S SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

YOU KNOW, I EXPERIENCED ALL OF THAT AND THEN I EXPERIENCED IT IN A STRUCTURAL CONTEXT THAT PRODUCED IT WHICH I WILL CALL INSTITUTIONAL VIOLENCE.

SO WHEN MY MOTHER AND FATHER WAS ESCAPING FROM THE SOUTH, WHAT THEY CAME IN TO WAS A SORT OF HOUSING PROJECT THAT HAD BEEN CREATED BY OUR GOVERNMENT TO CONTAIN THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE RUNNING FROM THE SOUTH.

SO I SETTLED INTO THIS VIOLENT STRUCTURE THAT HAD BEEN CONSTRUCTED YOU KNOW, TO CONTAIN PEOPLE.

AND OUT OF THAT, IT PRODUCES DIFFERENT TYPES OF BEHAVIORS.

I LEARNED DIFFERENT COPING MECHANISMS TO GET THROUGH AND GET BY.

AND MOST OF IT WAS ABOUT PUTTING UP GUARDS AND SORT OF EMOTIONAL GUARDS AROUND ME.

I WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE THESE EXPERIENCES WHERE I WOULD JUST SORT OF TURN OFF.

TURN OFF EVERYTHING AND JUST BE VOID.

BUT WHAT HAPPENED FOR ME, IS THAT I WAS ABLE TO CONNECT, I WAS ABLE TO FIND RESOURCES, FIND A TREATMENT FACILITY IN A COMMUNITY OF SANTA MONICA, WEALTHY, WHITE COMMUNITY, ABOUT THREE BLOCKS FROM THE BEACH.

AND I WAS ABLE TO ACCESS ALL THE SERVICES THAT WOULD PUT ME ON MY PATH TO HEALING AND RECOVERY.

WHAT I COULDN'T QUITE GRASP OR UNDERSTAND IS WHY THESE TYPES OF SERVICES EXISTED A FEW MILES DOWN THE 10 FREEWAY FOR SOME PEOPLE BUT THEN OVER IN MY COMMUNITY, THERE WAS NOTHING TO ACCESS LIKE THAT.

AND THAT'S WHY I SET ON A PATH TO BUILD A NEW WAY OF LIFE REENTRY PROJECT TO REPRODUCE WHAT I HAD EXPERIENCED IN SANTA MONICA.

I DID NOT HAVE THE WEALTH THAT SANTA MONICA HAD.

BUT I HAD THE HEART, THE CREATIVITY AND THE PASSION WHICH YOU KNOW, CAN MAKEUP FOR SOME OF THAT.

>> HOW DID IT END?

DID SOMEBODY HELP YOU?

>> YES.

A FRIEND OF MINE, JOE, TOLD ME ABOUT THE PLACE IN SANTA MONICA.

AND ONE OF MY BROTHERS TOLD ME IF I FIND A PLACE, HE WOULD PAY FOR IT FOR ME.

AND THAT WAS THE MAGIC MIX THE DIRECTION TO THE PLACE SOMEONE TO FINANCE IT FOR ME, AND THEN THE AGENCY THAT ACTUALLY HELPED ME.

>> WELL, I WANT TO GET BACK TO YOUR RECOVERY IN A LITTLE BIT.

FIRST, LET'S TELL OUR AUDIENCE HOW DID YOU -- WHAT DID YOU DO TO GET INTO PRISON?

HOW DID YOU GET INTO THAT CYCLE?

AND HOW DID DRUGS PLAY A ROLE IN THAT?

>> SO IN 1981, I HAD A SON.

MY SON HE ANAME WAS KK HE WAS KK.

AND HE WAS HIT BY A POLICEMAN AND KILLED.

>> IN A CAR?

>> IN A CAR.

THE POLICEMAN WAS IN A CAR AND MY SON WAS A PEDESTRIAN.

AND AFTER HIS DEATH, I BEGAN TO DRINK AND IT ESCALATED TO DRUG USE.

IT WAS DURING THE TIME OF THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR ON DRUGS.

AND DRUGS CAME INTO OUR COMMUNITY LIKE A PLAGUE.

JUST SATURATED WITH IT.

AND I MEDICATED MY GRIEF.

I MEDICATED MY DISAPPOINTMENT.

MY PAIN AND ULTIMATELY MY RAGE WITH THOSE DRUGS.

AND THEY WERE ILLEGAL.

SO I WAS INCARCERATED FOR MY, YOU KNOW, BACK STREET ANTIDEPRESSANT.

THAT WAS ILLEGAL.

>> AND WHEN YOU WENT TO PRISON SEVERAL TIMES AS YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, NEVER FOR VIOLENT CRIME?

>> I ALWAYS WENT TO PRISON FOR THE HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE OF HAVING A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE.

AND IT'S REALLY INTERESTING NOW THAT THE ADDICTION HAS MOVED TO OTHER AREAS AND OTHER PEOPLE, FOR ME, THE DRUG USE WAS A CRIME.

TODAY, THE AND OPIOID USE IS A HEALTH PROBLEM.

AND IT JUST SPEAKS TO ME ABOUT YOU KNOW, HOW WE ADDRESS WHAT FOR WHO.

>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE RACIAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN -- >> I'M TALKING ABOUT NOW THAT ADDICTION IS MOVING INTO WHITE AREAS, THEN IT BECOMES A HEALTH PROBLEM.

WHEN IT WAS IN BLACK AREAS, IT WAS A CRIMINAL PROBLEM.

AND YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST YOU KNOW, IT JUST CHANGES THE FACE.

NOTHING CHANGES.

>> HOW ABOUT THE WHOLE FEDERAL CRIMINAL CODE.

I WANTED TO GET INTO THIS LATER BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT IT NOW.

THE WHOLE SENTENCING CODE WHERE JUDGES ARE REQUIRED TO GIVE LONG MINIMUM SENTENCES FOR NONVIOLENT CRIMES, WHICH IS FILLING OUR PRIVATIZED PRISONS.

MAINLY WITH PEOPLE OF COLOR.

>> I THINK THE WHOLE MASS INCARCERATION, THE WHOLE IDEA THAT WE'RE AT A PLACE WHERE WE INCARCERATING PEOPLE IN THE MASSES AND INCARCERATING JUST CRIMINALIZING ADDICTION, CRIMINALIZING MENTAL HEALTH, CRIMINALIZING ALL ACROSS ALL THESE AREAS AND PRIMARILY BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE.

BUT THE OTHER THING THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING NOW IS THAT WOMEN ARE THE FASTEST GROWING SEGMENT OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

AND WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT WOMEN.

WE'RE NOT RESEARCHING WOMEN.

WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT THE EFFECTS OF INCARCERATION ON COMMUNITIES WHEN WOMEN ARE REMOVED.

I MEAN WOMEN HAVE RISEN SEVEN AND 800% IN THE LAST 30 YEARS.

AND YOU KNOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUNG PEOPLE.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MEN AND BOYS OF COLOR.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MEN.

BUT WE ARE NOT EVEN BEGINNING TO LOOK AND TALK ABOUT OUR RESEARCH WOMEN AND THE MASS INCARCERATION OF WOMEN.

AND I JUST FEEL LIKE THIS IS THE LAST AREA OF HOLDING OUR COMMUNITIES TOGETHER.

WHEN YOU REMOVE THE MEN HAVE BEEN REMOVED, CHILDREN HAVE BEEN INCARCERATED, AND WHEN YOU REMOVE THE WOMEN, I MEAN WHAT IS LEFT?

I FEEL LIKE IT'S THE UNRAVELING.

I DON'T KNOW -- I DON'T KNOW I FEEL IT'S THE UNRAVELING OF OUR COMMUNITIES.

I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S STRATEGIC UNRAVELING OR NOT.

BUT YOU KNOW, THAT'S SOMETHING FOR A DEEPER CONVERSATION ONE OF THOSE THINK TANKS OR DEEP RESEARCHERS.

BUT YOU KNOW, THERE'S REALLY A PROBLEM THAT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT WOMEN, THE MASS INCARCERATION OF WOMEN AND THE EFFECTS THAT HAS ON OUR COMMUNITIES.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT SOMETIMES I SAY YOU KNOW, WHY IS IT WOMEN ARE ALWAYS THE LAST ONES IN THE LINE TO RECEIVE YOU KNOW, FROM VOTING RIGHTS TO EQUAL PAY TO ALL OF THAT.

AND HERE IT IS, THIS AREA WE'RE LACKING ALSO.

SO WE HAVE TO KIND OF BEGIN TO LOOK FORWARD PUSH IT FORWARD.

AND BEGIN TO -- I'M THANKFUL THAT YOU HAD ME HERE TODAY TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK, BECOMING MS. BURTON AND PUTTING IT OUT THERE FOR PEOPLE TO BEGIN TO READ.

I GUESS IF THEY WON'T DO IT YOU HAVE TO DO IT.

>> AND YOU HAVE DONE IT.

AND I THANK YOU FOR THAT.

NOW, TELL ME, YOU CAME OUT, YOU SAID THAT IN THE BOOK, I BELIEVE, THAT YOU CAME OUT OF PRISON A WORSE PERSON.

WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU IN PRISON?

PRISON AT LEAST ON SOME LEVEL IS SUPPOSED TO BE REHABILITATION.

WAS THERE ANY OF THAT IN PRISON FOR YOU?

>> SO THE WAY I EXPERIENCED IT AND FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, PRISONS ARE CREATED IN THE UNITED STATES FOR PUNISHMENT.

AND THEY PUT PEOPLE THERE TO PUNISH THEM NOT TO -- IT WASN'T REHABILITATION.

IT WAS DEGRADING.

THERE WERE EXPERIENCES THAT WERE JUST TORTUREIOUS AND TRAUMATIC.

I REMEMBER BEING CHAINED LINE BY-LINE SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH OTHER WOMEN AND LED OUT OF THE COUNTY JAIL IN THE DARK OF THE NIGHT, PUT ON A BUS AND ROLLED DOWN THE HIGHWAY.

STRIPPED.

TOTALLY STRIPPED AND PUT IN WHAT I FELT LIKE WAS A CORAL WITH ALL THE OTHER WOMEN WHILE WE WERE ALL INSPECTED.

THAT WAS HORRIFIC AND TRAUMATIC.

>> INSPECTED FOR WHAT?

>> INSPECTED.

I DON'T KNOW.

YOU KNOW.

I WAS INSPECTED LEAVING THE COUNTY JAIL AND REINSPECTED ENTERING THE STATE PRISON.

SO I CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE REASON OF IT.

BUT I KNOW THE EFFECT IT HAD.

IT WAS DEGRADING.

IT WAS HARMFUL.

IT WAS TRAUMATIC.

SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE INSPECTING FOR.

IT TOOK ME ALL THE WAY BACK TO WHAT I HAD SEEN AND READ ABOUT DURING THE MIDDLE PASSAGE WHEN PEOPLE WOULD PUT ON BOXES AND TURNED AROUND AND THEIR TEETH LOOKED AT AND EARS LOOKED AT AND FEET LOOKED AT AND THEIR CROTCH LOOKED OUT, IT TOOK ME BACK TO THE SLAVE TRADE.

>> AND THERE WAS NOTHING YOU COULD DO ABOUT IT?

>> I DID WHAT I DID AS A LITTLE GIRL.

IN THE VIOLENCE AND THE TRAUMA.

YOU KNOW, I TURNED OFF.

I ESCAPED.

I WENT BLANK.

BECAUSE IT'S JUST TOO MUCH TO HAVE TO EMOTIONALLY FEEL WHAT IS BEING DONE TO YOU.

>> SO LET'S MOVE ON TO YOU GET OUT OF PRISON.

YOU WENT THROUGH THE PROGRAM >> YES.

>> 100 DAYS?

WHAT DID THEY DO?

>> YOU KNOW, THEY TREATED ME WITH DIGNITY AND RESPECT.

THEY SAW I NEEDED HELP AND THEY EXTENDED HELP TO ME.

THEY GUIDED ME TO THERAPY.

THEY GUIDED ME TO THE AA PROGRAM.

I'M 20 YEARS SOBER THIS YEAR.

THEY GUIDED ME TO CLOTHING AND HOUSING AND FOOD AND.

>> WORK?

ANY TRAINING FOR WORK?

>> WELL, I WORKED IN THEIR THRIFT STORE AS PART OF MY YOU KNOW, PAY OF BEING THERE.

PART OF MY RESPONSIBILITY WAS TO HAVE A DAILY CHORE.

SO MY CHORE WAS THE THRIFT STORE.

BUT I FOUND WORK WHEN I LEFT THERE.

MY BROTHER WHO PAID FOR MY FIRST MONTH, HIS GIRLFRIEND INTRODUCED ME TO A WOMAN IN OUR COMMUNITY IN THE COMMUNITY OF SOUTH LA, OLDER LADY WHO NEEDED HELP, MS. ANDREWS AND I BECAME HER LIVE-IN NURSE AND THAT ALLOWED ME TO SAVE MONEY TO EVENTUALLY CREATE A NEW WAY OF LIFE, REENTRY PROJECT >> NOW, SO A NEW WAY OF LIFE REENTRY PROJECT.

TELL ME, TELL US, ABOUT THAT AND YOU OUT OF ALL THINGS YOU HAD TO BECOME A FUND RAIDER TO START A NON--- FUNDRAISER TO START A NONPROFIT.

WHERE DID YOU GET THOSE SKILLS AND HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THE IDEA?

>> I SAVED MONEY AS A CAREGIVER TO INITIALLY GET THE HOUSE.

AND WHEN I GOT THE HOUSE, I WOULD GO DOWN TO THE BUS STATION WHERE THE WOMEN WERE GETTING OFF THE BUS COMING FROM PRISON.

AND I WOULD OFFER THEM A PLACE THERE.

AND WE CREATED -- >> DID THEY ALL TAKE YOU UP ON IT?

>> NOT EVERYBODY BUT SOME PEOPLE BEFORE LONG THERE WERE 11 OF US LIVING IN A THREE BEDROOM HOUSE AND WE PITCHED IN OUR MONEY TOGETHER AND WE PAID THE BILLS AND WE SHARED FOOD AND RESHARED RESOURCES AND CREATED THIS COMMUNITY OF WOMEN HELPING WOMEN.

WE LAUGHED TOGETHER.

WE CRIED TOGETHER.

WE WENT TO MEETINGS TOGETHER.

YOU KNOW WE ATE TOGETHER.

AND WE CREATED THIS COMMUNITY THAT ALLOWED US THE CHANCE -- FIRST IT ALLOWED US A PLACE TO BELONG.

AND NOT FEEL LIKE WE WERE A BURDEN.

NOT FEEL LIKE WE WERE UNWANTED.

AND WE BEGAN TO HEAL AND WE BEGAN TO YOU KNOW, GET JOBS.

WE BEGAN TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND EVERYBODY DID DIFFERENT THINGS.

>> SO TELL ME ABOUT THE 11 WOMEN.

WHERE ARE THEY TODAY?

>> THEY ARE THROUGHOUT THE COMMUNITY.

SOME ARE -- ONE WOMAN IS A SET DESIGNER FOR A DANCE STUDIO, TRAVELING DANCE STUDIO.

ONE IS A DRUG COUNSELOR, JUST DIFFERENT -- THEY JUST ARE IN DIFFERENT AREAS, DIFFERENT PLACES.

THROUGHOUT THE COMMUNITY.

>> AND HAVING CREATED THAT HOUSEHOLD AND THAT HEALING SPACE, HOW DID YOU TELL YOUR STORY FROM THERE ON ABOUT THERE OUT ABOUT HOW YOU CREATED NOW YOU HAVE THREE HOUSES, RIGHT?

>> FIVE.

SO WE NOW HAVE FIVE HOUSES.

AND EARLY ON THERE WAS A FOUNDATION WHO GAVE ME A VIOLENCE PREVENTION FELLOWSHIP.

WITH THE FELLOWSHIP I ACCESSED A MEMBERSHIP TO THE CENTER FOR NONPROFIT MANAGEMENT AND FOR TWO YEARS I HAD A COACH.

AND THAT COACH TAUGHT ME ALL OF THE INS AND OUTS OF NONPROFIT MANAGEMENT.

AND I THINK THAT FOR WHILE -- I WAS ABLE TO GRASP IT ALL.

I WAS ABLE TO UNDERSTAND AND PUT THE PIECES IN PLACE THAT THE ORGANIZATION WOULD GROW.

I THINK IT'S HAVING OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY TO GET GROUNDED AND GET AHOLD ON THEIR LIVES THAT THEIR LIVES CAN ACTUALLY THRIVE AND THEY CAN BECOME ASSETS TO THE COMMUNITY.

WHAT WE HAVE NOW ACROSS AMERICA IS BARRIERS TO PEOPLE'S OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR YOUR LIFE TO THRIVE.

I THINK WE'RE REALLY LOOKING BACKWARDS AT A PROBLEM INSTEAD OF LOOKING FORWARD.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE BARRIERS.

WHAT ARE THEY?

AND ARE THEY GOING TO GET WORSE UNDER THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION?

>> I CANNOT PREDICT THE FUTURE.

BUT I CAN TELL YOU WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW AND WHAT WE'VE DONE IN THE PAST.

SO THERE ARE BARRIERS TO -- THE BAR ASSOCIATION HAS DOCUMENTED 45,000 BARRIERS FOR PEOPLE WITH CRIMINAL HISTORIES.

SO ALL OF THOSE -- YOU CAN IMAGINE 45,000 BARRIERS.

BARRIERS TO HOUSING, BARRIERS TO JOBS, BARRIERS TO SCHOOL, BARRIERS TO CHILD REUNIFICATION, BARRIERS TO LICENSING, I MEAN 45,000 BARRIERS.

THAT'S YOU KNOW, INSTEAD OF 45,000 OPPORTUNITIES.

ONCE A PERSON LEAVES THE PRISON AND THEIR DEBT IS PAID, THEY SHOULD NOT BE CONTINUED TO BE PUNISHED AT THE COST OF THE TAXPAYER ON A MONETARY LEVEL BUT ACTUALLY ALSO AT THE COST OF THE GIFTS AND THE TALENTS THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO PUT BACK INTO THE WORLD PUT BACK INTO THE COMMUNITIES AND THEIR CHILDREN'S LIVES AND WHAT HAVE YOU.

>> SO YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE WHOLE SYSTEM REFORMED?

NONVIOLENT OFFENDERS NOT GOING TO JAIL?

>> I WOULD LIKE TO SEE -- I WOULD SEE -- I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AS IT EXIST TO BE DISMANTLED FROM A PUNITIVE APPROACH AND CREATED FOR AS A REHABILITATIVE APPROACH.

ONLY FOR THE MOST HARMFUL INDIVIDUALS THAT REALLY CAUSE THE COMMUNITY -- THAT ARE REALLY A THREAT TO THE SAFETY OF OUR COMMUNITIES.

SO I JUST WOULDN'T PUT IT ON A VIOLENT AND A NONVIOLENT SORT OF APPROACH.

AND I THINK THAT SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE PUSHED INTO WAYS TO BECOME VIOLENT.

IT'S ONLY BY THE GRACE OF GOD THAT I DID NOT GET CAUGHT IN SOME SITUATION WHERE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DEEMED A VIOLENT SITUATION AND I WOULD HAVE BEEN A VIOLENT LABELED VIOLENT FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.

SO I THINK THAT WE REALLY JUST NEED TO LOOK AT HOW WE'RE APPROACHING THINGS.

BUT THE PRISON SYSTEM MAKES PEOPLE WORSE THAN THEY WERE WHEN THEY GOT THERE.

YOU HAVE A MUCH MORE DAMAGED PERSON LEAVING THEN COMING.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR BOOK.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO THE CONTRARY VISIT ME ON TWITTER OR GO TO PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, PLEASE JOIN US NEXT WEEK.

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