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♪ PHILLIP: WELCOME TO BASIC BLACK.

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST, AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

I’M PHILLIP MARTIN, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, GBH NEWS FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING, AND YOUR HOST.

TONIGHT -- CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.

A NEW REPORT ON THE STATE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM IN MASSACHUSETTS WAS RELEASED.

RESEARCHERS FOUND CRIME AND INCARCERATION RATES FELL -- ALMOST BY HALF IN THE LAST TEN YEARS.

MOST AFTER 2018 WHEN TWO REFORM LAWS PASSED IN THE COMMONWEALTH.

NOW SOME OF THE SUCCESS WAS DUE TO A FINANCIAL INVESTMENT OF MORE THAN $30 MILLION ANNUALLY IN REENTRY PROGRAMS FOR PEOPLE LEAVING PRISON.

THOSE ARE SOME OF THE BRIGHT SPOTS.

BUT THE REPORT ALSO REVEALED THE HUGE RACIAL DISPARITY OF WHO REMAINS BEHIND BARS, SUGGESTING THERE IS A LOT MORE TO DO.

JOINING ME TONIGHT TO DISCUSS THE REPORT ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM -- SOPHIA HALL IS THE DEPUTY LITIGATION DIRECTOR FOR LAWYERS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS IN BOSTON.

RADHA NATARAJAN IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NEW ENGLAND INNOCENCE PROJECT.

RAHSAAN HALL IS PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE URBAN LEAGUE OF EASTERN MASSACHUSETTS.

AND LEON SMITH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CITIZENS FOR JUVENILE JUSTICE.

WELCOME, ALL OF YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

PHILLIP: LET’S TALK ABOUT THE DATA.

WE HAVE SOME BASIC DATA POINTS, AND ESSENTIALLY IT IS SAYING THAT I GUESS WHAT THE REPORT IS TRYING TO SAY IS THAT THINGS ARE BETTER RELATIVE TO PRE-2018, AND I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK IN SUMMARY FORM, AND I WILL START WITH YOU, SOPHIA.

SOPHIA: I APPRECIATE THAT THE REPORT ACKNOWLEDGES SOME OF THE SHORTCOMINGS, BUT IT SORT OF TOUTS THE OUTCOMES IN A WAY THAT MISSES THE FOREST FOR THE TREES, RIGHT?

ONE OF THE CHARGES OF THIS BILL WAS TO GET TO THE CORE OF THIS SYSTEMIC DISPARITIES THAT EXIST IN OUR IN CAR SEVERAL SYSTEM.

IT FAILED TO DO THAT.

WITHOUT THAT WE CANNOT SAY FIVE OR 10 YEARS FROM NOW WE WILL BE DOING ANY BETTER.

TAKING A SNAPSHOT WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE LARGER ZOOMED OUT LENS MEANS WE ARE STILL BEHIND, WE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO MOVE FORWARD.

THAT IS CONCERNING THE DATA WE FEEL POSITIVE ABOUT IS THAT SMALL SNAPSHOT WE HAVE SEEN.

PHILLIP: A SMALL SNAPSHOT, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

RADHA: THEY DID IT DOES NOT TELL A NEW STORY.

IT TELLS AN OLD STORY, AND THAT IS ABOUT RACISM IN THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM, AND THE ONLY WAY THERE WILL BE DRAMATIC CHANGES IS IF WE MOVE DISCRETION FROM POLICE AND PROSECUTORS.

I THINK A REALLY IMPORTANT DATA POINT IS IN TERMS OF MOTOR VEHICLE INFRACTIONS.

WHITE PEOPLE OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME SAW 25% REDUCTION IN MOTOR VEHICLE VIOLATIONS, AND WE ALL DRIVE, BUT THE POLICE DECIDE TO THEY ARE GOING TO STOP, WHO THEY WILL CHARGE FOR A CRIME FOR WHAT HAPPENS IN THEIR CAR.

BLACK PEOPLE SAW 1/3 INTRODUCTION OF MOTOR VEHICLE VIOLATIONS AND LETTING US ALL IN INCREASE DURING THAT ENTIRE TIME , SO IF WE ARE GOING TO REDUCE RACIAL DISPARITIES WE HAVE TO TAKE DISCRETION THAT IT PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT WHO THEY ARE GOING TO CHARGE WITH CRIMES.

PHILLIP: AND SOME PROGRESS, BUT OBVIOUSLY HEARING FROM YOUR COLLEAGUES HERE NOT ENOUGH.

RAHSAAN: ABSOLUTELY, AND THAT IS AS AN ADVOCATE AS ONE OF THE FOLKS DOING THE ADVOCACY TO GET THESE LAWS PASSED AND REFORMS IMPLEMENTED, WE KNEW THAT WE WOULD SEE DISPARITIES PERSIST.

WE WERE HOPEFUL THAT THE COLLECTION OF DATA AND THE REQUIREMENT TO GATHER MORE DATA WOULD REVEAL SOME HIDDEN TRUTHS ABOUT HOW THE SYSTEM OPERATES, BUT WE KNOW THAT THE DISPARITIES WOULD EXIST.

THAT SAID, I THINK THERE IS A CELEBRATORY MOMENT FOR THOSE OF US WHO ADVOCATED, BECAUSE ALL ALONG WE WERE SAYING IF YOU INTRODUCE THESE REFORMS, WE WILL BE BETTER OFF.

WE MIGHT NOT GET TO THE HEART OF THE RACIAL DISPARITIES, BUT WE WILL HAVE FEWER PEOPLE INCARCERATED, FEWER PEOPLE ARRESTED.

ALL ALONG LAW ENFORCEMENT WERE SAYING IF YOU MAKE THESE REFORMS WE WILL BE LESS SAFE.

THE CONVERSE IS TRUE.

WE HAVE SEEN DECLINES IN CRIME, FIVE A CRIME AS WELL.

CERTAINLY THERE ARE LOCALIZED ISSUES, BUT OVERALL WE HAVE SEEN REDUCTIONS.

THIS GUY DID NOT FALL, SO HERE WE ARE CHICKEN LITTLE.

PHILLIP: WHAT DO YOU THINK?

LEON: ANYTIME YOU ARE FEWER PEOPLE ENTERING THE SYSTEM, THAT IS A POSITIVE.

HOWEVER, WHEN WE LOOK AT DATA AND I COMMEND THIS REPORT BECAUSE DATA IS SO IMPORTANT, AND A KEY PART TO DOING ADVOCACY WORK, BECAUSE THAT IS THAT WE TRULY MEASURE NOT JUST HOW THE SYSTEM IS WORKING OVERALL BUT HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS FOR DIFFERENT PARTS OF OUR POPULATION.

SO I AM HAPPY THINGS ARE TRENDING DOWN.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SHEER LEVEL OF RACIAL DISPARITIES, WHEN YOU LOOK AT RACIAL DISPARITIES IN INCARCERATION AND JUICY SEE INCARCERATION FELL PRECIPITOUSLY FOR WHITE RESIDENTS BUT NOWHERE NEAR AS MUCH FOR BLACK AND BROWN RESIDENTS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE GAP BETWEEN BLACK AND BROWN RESIDENTS AND WHITE, IS SIGNIFICANTLY BROADER THAN WE SEE IN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE, WHICH ALSO MERITS WHAT WE SEE IN THE JUVENILE SYSTEM.

A PROJECT FOUND THAT WE HAVE THE WORST LATINO-WHITE RACIAL DISPARITIES IN YOUTH INCARCERATION IN AMERICA AND THE FOURTH WORST OF BLACK-WHITE DISPARITIES IN INCARCERATION IN AMERICA.

THIS IS A POSITIVE STEP.

REFORM WORKS, WE WILL NOT FULLY RECOGNIZE THE PROMISE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM UNTIL WE DEAL WITH THOSE PERSISTENT RACIAL DISPARITIES.

PHILLIP: AND YOU WORK MAINLY WITH YOUTH.

MUCH TALK ABOUT WHO IS STILL BEHIND BARS IN DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBERS.

THE REPORT FROM THE BOSTON FOUNDATION MASS INC. IS WE HAVE SEEN GOOD NEWS AS OF LATE, FOR EXAMPLE.

A PRISON JUST CLOSED DOWN.

IT CAN ONLY BE CONSIDERED GOOD NEWS THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENT POLICY TOWARD YOUTH CRIMINALITY IN THE COMMONWEALTH.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY AGAIN WHEN YOU JUXTAPOSE THE NEWS OF MASSACHUSETTS IN JUST WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY?

IT SEEMS TO BE GOING BACK IN THE VERY TERM OF CRIMINAL REFORM.

REFORM SEEMS TO BE A CURSE WORD FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEING FOLKS RUNNING INTO SUPERMARKETS AND TAKING FOOD.

YOU HAVE SEEN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS AND VIDEOS ON TELEVISION, RIGHT?

WHERE THEY SHOW MOBS AS THEY CALL THEM -- FLASH MOBS RUNNING INTO STORES AND GRUBBING THINGS, AND THE RESPONSES BEEN WE DO NOT NEED CRIMINAL REFORM.

WE NEED HARSHER PENALTIES.

HOW DOES IT LOOK COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, SOPHIA?

SOPHIA: WE LIVE IN A RACIALIZED COUNTRY.

NONE OF US CAN DENY THAT.

WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD A RHETORIC ABOUT FEAR MONGERING, COMPLETING CRIMINALITY WITH THE PEOPLE WITH A BROWN SKIN.

NONE OF THAT IS NEW, AND NONE OF THAT IS GOING AWAY.

I THINK WHAT THIS REPORT DOES HARASSES AT LEAST GIVES US SOMETHING TO WORK WITH AS MY BROTHER LEON SAYS.

IT GIVES US STATED TO POINT TO, BUT IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO MASSACHUSETTS TO REALIZE OUR FIGURES WERE NOT GREAT 20 YEARS AGO.

WE ARE COMING FROM SOME PLACE TO BED TO SOMEPLACE LESS BAD, AND I DO NOT KNOW THAT WE APPLAUD IN THE WAY THAT WE DO.

PHILLIP: RAHSAAN?

RAHSAAN: WE ARE GOING TO HYPERFOCUS ON THE BAD CONDUCT OF BLACK AND BROWN FOLKS, BUT THAT NARRATIVE IS PROBLEMATIC AND FEELS THE RESISTANCE IN SOME OF THESE WERE FORMS.

I DO THINK THERE WAS ANOTHER COMPONENT MISSING AND THE REPORT TALKS ABOUT THIS IS THE LEVEL OF INVESTMENT.

THE WHOLE PURPOSE WERE ONE OF THE MAIN PURPOSES -- PHILLIP: I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU -- RAHSAAN: WAS TO TAKE SOME OF THE SAVINGS ARE FEWER PEOPLE BEING INCARCERATED AND REINVESTING IT INTO THE COMMUNITY.

AT THE CHALLENGE FOR ME IS HOW I GOT REINVESTED, MOSTLY SYI GRA NTS, AND I AM BLINKING ON THE INITIALS, BUT THOSE TEND TO BE MORE LAW ENFORCEMENT ORIENTED AND ASSOCIATED PROGRAMS.

I AM OF THE MIND IF YOU GIVE PEOPLE THE MONEY TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS THEY KNOW THEY HAVE THEMSELVES WE WILL GET FAR BETTER OUTCOMES, BUT DO YOUR POINT ABOUT THE RHETORIC IN THE NARRATIVE AND THE FEAR MONGERING , WE WILL TAKE THE SMASH AND GRAB THAT HAPPENS AT NEIMAN MARCUS IN CHICAGO AND SPREAD THAT ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO SCARE PEOPLE INTO THINKING THAT WE STILL NEED TO DOUBLE DOWN ON THESE OLD TACTICS THAT LEAD TO THESE GROSS RACIAL DISPARITIES IN THE HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE INCARCERATED WILL NOT KEEPING IS ACTUALLY SAFER.

PHILLIP: IT ALSO OBFUSCATES THE LARGER PICTURE, DOES IT NOT?

WHAT I AM HEARING IN MY REPORTING ROLE, I AM HEARING PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THESE SMASH AND GRABS EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT HAPPENING HERE.

IT IS HAVING AN IMPACT ON THE VERY NOTION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, SO WHAT STEPS CAN BE TAKEN TO BASICALLY CHANGE THAT PICTURE IN YOUR VIEW?

IN THE EYES AND MINDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING THESE THINGS PLAY OUT ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

RADHA: I THINK ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS, AND THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR HERE TOO’S MEDIA PLAYS A SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN FEAR MONGERING.

WHEN THERE IS A FOCUS ON HARD THAT IS BEING COMMITTED INSTEAD OF ALL OF THE GOOD THAT COMMUNITIES ARE DOING WITHIN THOSE COMMUNITIES, THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE DOING TO HELP EACH OTHER, IT SENDS A PICTURE, IT INFLAMES THOSE FEARS, AND THAT IS SIGNIFICANT.

I DID WANT TO GO BACK TO 1.I THINK WHAT’S IMPORTANT, WHICH IS THAT THERE IS A DATA POINT THAT RIGHT NOW BLACK PEOPLE ARE INCARCERATED IN MASSACHUSETTS AT SEVEN TIMES THE RATE OF WHITE PEOPLE, AND THAT COMES FROM THE REPORT.

THAT NUMBER STUCK OUT TO ME, BECAUSE NATIONALLY YOU ARE SEVEN TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE WRONGFULLY CONVICTED OF MURDER IF YOU WERE BLACK THAN IF YOU ARE WHITE, AND OUR WORK CENTERS ON WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS TOO, AND THESE ARE FOLKS WHO THE MEDIA PORTRAYED AS THE MOST DANGEROUS PEOPLE THAT EXIST, AND THEY WERE INNOCENT.

I THINK THESE RACIAL DISPARITIES GO THROUGHOUT THE SYSTEM WHETHER YOU WERE INNOCENT, WHETHER YOU ARE GUILTY, IT IS MORE ABOUT WHO YOU ARE THAN WHAT YOU DO, AND THAT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND.

PHILLIP: THAT IS SO TRUE, AND IT IS PARTICULARLY TRUE PROBABLY FOR YOUTH.

YOU WORK PRIMARILY WITH YOUTH.

WHEN DEVAL PATRICK SIGNED THIS LEGISLATION, THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE PUBLIC NOT UNDERSTANDING THAT THE BRAIN DEVELOPMENT OF YOUNG PEOPLE WAS SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF ADULTS, AND THUS YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT AS A MITIGATING FACTOR IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.

HAVE ANY OF THOSE THINGS BEEN APPARENT IN TERMS OF -- THAT IS TO SAY IT HAS ANY OF THAT LEGISLATION SHOWN UP IN THE WORK THAT YOU ARE DOING NOW IN TERMS OF HOW POLICE A VIRTUE, AND HOW THE COURTS OF VIRTUE?

LEON: JUST TO PICK UP ON RAHSAAN’S COMMENTS, WHAT WE HAVE SEEN HAPPEN IS A REVIVAL OF THE SAME PLAYBOOK FROM THE MID-1990’S.

PHILLIP: THE TOUGH ON CRIME.

LEON: MASSACRE TO RACE IT WAS FUELED BY STEREOTYPICAL RACIST HARSH NEGATIVE DIRECTED TOWARD BLACK AND BROWN YOUTH IN BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES, AND WE HAVE SEEN THE SAME PLAYBOOK.

THEY MAY NOT USE THE WORD SUPER PREDATOR, BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT KIDS, STILL DEVELOPING KIDS BEING DANGEROUS TO THE VIOLENT EVEN IN THE EDUCATION SPACE, WE SEE FIVE AND SIX-YEAR-OLD CHILDREN BEING SUSPENDED FROM SCHOOL, HOW DO YOU CALL A FIVE-YEAR-OLD CHILD VIOLENT?

WE SEE THOSE TERMS BEING PLACED ON BRECK -- BLACK AND BROWN YOUNG PEOPLE ALL THE TIME.

WHEN HARSH NARRATIVES ARE NOT CHECKED AND CHALLENGED TO THINK I WANT TO CREATE HARSHER NEGATIVE POLICIES THAT DECIMATE BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES, SO IT CFJJ, ONE OF THE THINGS WE DO IS FOCUS ON NARRATIVE CHANGE, CHALLENGING THE NARRATIVE, NEVER LETTING IT GO UNCHECKED, USING DATA LIKE WE SEE IN THIS REPORT, USING RESEARCH AND BEST PRACTICES TO SAY "YOU ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE THAT ONE ISOLATED CASE AND USE IT TO SAY THIS IS ALL THAT IS HAPPENING."

WE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO PUSH BACK AND SAY "WHAT IS THE DATA SAYING?"

I LOOK AT THIS REPORT AS WELL AND IT IS AFFIRMATION THE JUVENILE JUSTICE REFORM WORKS.

A DATA POINT ABOUT EMERGING ADULTS OF THE 20% DROP FROM 18 TO 24.

I TIE THAT TO JUVENILE JUSTICE COURT FORMS IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM ACT, THE VERSION WHICH IS ALL ABOUT THE RESEARCH, WHICH ESTABLISHES WHEN YOU DIRECT YOUNG PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE FORMAL SYSTEM TO COMMUNITY-BASED SERVICES THAT ADDRESS ROOT CAUSES AND THEIR UNDERLYING NEEDS, THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE BECOME LESS LIKELY TO RE-OFFEND AND END UP IN THE SYSTEM BUT WHEN YOU SEEMED -- SEND THOSE PEOPLE TO FORMAL PROCESSING THEY BECOME MORE LIKELY TO OFFEND.

WE RAGE GAUGE FROM 7 TO 12 TO KEEP YOUNG CHILDREN OUT.

WE DECRIMINALIZED CERTAIN OFFENSES LIKE DISTURBING THE SCHOOL ASSEMBLY WHICH IS A MAJOR FACTOR IN PUTTING STUDENTS IN THE PRISON PIPELINE.

WHEN YOU MAKE THAT INVESTMENT COUPLED WITH FUNDING TOWARD ADDRESSING YOUTH NEEDS IN THE COMMUNITY, NOT ONLY DO YOU GET AN IMMEDIATE RETURN ON INVESTMENT FOR YOUNG PEOPLE AS WE HAVE SEEN THE JUVENILE JUSTICE SYSTEM OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS DECREASE IN SIZE, BUT THAT RETURN ON INVESTMENT PAYS FORWARD BECAUSE YOUNG PEOPLE DO NOT END UP IN THE SYSTEM WHEN THEY TURN 18.

PHILLIP: WHAT YOU ARE EXPENDING ALSO WAS PART OF THE ANSWER TO THE NEXT QUESTION, WHICH IS WHY SHOULD FOLKS CARE?

FOLKS WERE WATCHING THIS PROGRAM.

PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING AT HOME RIGHT NOW, THEY HEAR THE TERM CRIMINAL REFORM, BUT IT PROBABLY DOES NOT RESONATE.

YOU WERE TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY THEY SHOULD CARE?

RAHSAAN: ONE, BECAUSE IT WORKS, AND THE ALTERNATIVE IS WORSE FOR OUR COMMUNITIES, SO THE D EXTENT THAT PEOPLE ARE WORRIED THAT IF YOU JUST GIVE KIDS A SLAP ON THE WRIST -- BECAUSE THAT WAS THE CRITIQUE OF RAISING THE GAUGE.

IF THE ONLY TOOL WE HAVE IS TO HARASS AND INCARCERATE 7 TO 11 -YEAR-OLDS WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT US AS A SOCIETY?

BUT IF WE MAKE IT INVESTMENT IN THE RESOURCES THAT ARE EVIDENCE-BASED THAT SHOULD YOU GET BETTER OUTCOMES WHEN YOU ADDRESS THESE UNDERLYING ROOT CAUSES, WE WILL BE MUCH BETTER OFF, SO PEOPLE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE WILL GET BETTER OUTCOMES, AND DESPITE THE NARRATIVES OF SMASH AND GRAB AND CARJACKING, WHICH ARE HAPPENING, BUT LET’S LOOK AT THE ALTERNATIVE OF HOW TO ADDRESS ROOT CAUSES OR WE DO NOT HAVE THE SMASH AND GRAB AND CARJACKING’S OR ANY OTHER NARRATIVE THE MEDIA PUTS OUT THERE TO DRIVE THE FEAR MONGERING.

IT IS SO IMPORTANT AND A BETTER USE OF OUR RESOURCES AND INVESTMENT IN PEOPLE AND NOT EXPANDING THE FOOTPRINT OF THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM.

PHILLIP: TRANSITIONAL HOUSING WAS ONE OF THE POINTS MADE IN THIS REPORT.

NOT ENOUGH OF IT.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT $30 MILLION INVESTMENT, BUT IT IS A DROP IN THE BUCKET OF WHAT IS NEEDED IN ORDER TO ASSIST FOLKS WHO WERE LEAVING PRISON, RETURNING CITIZENS.

SOPHIA, WITHOUT THAT MONEY AND OTHER STEPS, ARE WE LOSING THE REFORM PART OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM?

SOPHIA: IT SHOULD NOT BE A SURPRISE TO ANYONE THAT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH HOUSING.

THERE IS NOT ENOUGH HOUSING FOR PROFESSIONALS WHO WERE MIDDLE-AGED WHO HAD HAD THE ABILITY TO HAVE ACCESS TO EDUCATION AND OPPORTUNITIES.

THERE IS CERTAINLY NOT ENOUGH HOUSING FOR PEOPLE EXITING THE CARCERAL SYSTEM WITH NO SUPPORTED NEGATIVE RHETORIC ABOUT WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT THEIR FUTURE IS GOING TO HOLD.

THIS IS YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW WE DO NOT THINK ABOUT CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM AS A CULTURE SHIFT.

WHEN I HEAR FROM ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THIS ISSUE IS WE ARE TRYING TO CHANGE HEARTS AND MINDS.

WE ARE TRYING TO SAY IT IS MORE THAN A PUNITIVE SYSTEM, WE BELIEVE ALL PEOPLE DESERVE ACCESS TO A FULL AND INCLUSIVE LIFE SO THEY CAN CONTRIBUTE BACK TO THEIR COMMUNITY.

IF YOU BELIEVE IN COMMUNITY AND THE INCLUSIVE NOTION OF COMMUNITY, WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT TO PUT DOLLARS AND CENTS TWO PEOPLE HAVING A ROOF OVER THEIR HEAD BUT YOU CAN DRIVE DOWN ANY STREET IN BOSTON AND SEE PEOPLE SLEEPING OUTSIDE.

PHILLIP: THERE DOES NOT SEEM TO BE ENOUGH INTEGRATION OF ISSUES.

WE TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS IN SILOS.

YOU HAVE PEOPLE SLEEPING AT THE AIRPORT WHO WERE MIGRANTS, PEOPLE SLEEPING AT THE TRANSPORTATION BUILDING: OUR MIGRANTS, AND THE WAY THESE ISSUES ARE SOMETIMES DISCUSSED PITS PEOPLE AGAINST EACH OTHER, SO NOW YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT FOLKS WHO NEED TRANSITIONAL HOUSING WHO ARE RETURNING CITIZENS, AND SON OF -- SOEME OF THE QUESTIONS BEING RAISED ARE OR THEY TAKING HOUSING FROM OTHER FOLKS WHO NEED IT?

WHAT IS WITH GOD?

RADHA: I THINK THERE IS A DIRECT CONNECTION TO PRISONS AND WHAT HAPPENS AFTERWARDS IN THAT IF OUR PRISON SYSTEM DID NOT BREAK PEOPLE SO THOROUGHLY AND TRY TO DEHUMANIZE PEOPLE SO THOROUGHLY, THEY WOULD NOT NEED THE LEVEL OF SUPPORT THAT THEY HAD WHEN THEY GET OUT OF PRISON.

FOR OUR FOLKS WHO WOULD BEEN IN PRISON FOR THINGS THEY DID NOT DO 430, 40, 50 YEARS -- FOR 30, 40, 50 YEARS THEY STILL COME OUT WITH ALL THE THINGS THAT PRISONS TRY TO TAKE AWAY FROM PEOPLE AND THEY DO NOT HAVE WAYS TO COME BACK TO COMMUNITIES AND GIVE OTHER GIFTS.

THE REALITY IS WHY PEOPLE SHOULD CARE IS THAT INCARCERATION IS ACTUALLY NOT THE THING MAKING US SAFER.

WE NEED TO NOT JUST CLOSE CONCORD, WE NEED TO CLOSE MORE THAN CONCORD AND WE NEED TO INVEST THAT MONEY IN PREVENTION.

PREVENTION AND WE WOULD NOT NEED TO PUT SO MUCH IN REENTRY IF PRISONS WERE NOT TREATING PEOPLE THE WAY THAT THEY ARE.

LEON: ABSOLUTELY, AND TO BUILD ON THAT FREDERICK THAT LISTED IT IS EASIER TO BUILD STRONG CHILDREN THEN TO REPAIR BROKEN MEN.

PHILLIP: PROPS FOR QUOTING FREDERICK DOUG IS.

LEON: WHEN WE LOOK AT 18 TO 20 -YEAR-OLDS, MANY OF WHOM HAVE NOT FINISHED HIGH SCHOOL AND WE PUT THEM IN THAT ADULT HARSH PUNITIVE ENVIRONMENT, IT DOES NOT JUST BREAK THEM IN THE MOMENT BUT INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD THAT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO CYCLE IN AND OUT OF THE SYSTEM, DOING LIFE THREE YEARS AT A TIME.

IT DOES NOT FIX ANYTHING.

IT DOES NOT MAKE IT BETTER.

IT DOES EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.

FOR 18 TO 20-YEAR-OLDS WHO WERE IN THE ADULT JUSTICE SYSTEM THERE IS A 76% RECIDIVISM RATE FOR RE-ARREST AND A 70% RATE FOR RECONVENTION.

IF BEING TOUGH ON CRIME DETERS CRIME, AND WHY DO WE SEE THAT IT ACTUALLY INCREASES IT?

TAKE 18 TO 20-YEAR-OLDS WHO WORK AT ORISSA KEPT IN THE JUVENILE SYSTEM WHERE THEY HAVE ACCESS TO EDUCATION WITH A PATHWAY TOWARD THE DIPLOMA, A PATHWAY TOWARD TREATMENT AND COUNSELING AND THERAPY THAT ADDRESSES UNDERLYING TRAUMA, WHERE THEY HAVE GREATER FAMILY INVOLVEMENT IN CASE PLANNING, THOSE RECIDIVISM RATES CUT IN HALF.

RELATE THE PICTURE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, IT IS ABOUT LONG-TERM PUBLIC SAFETY, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT BREAKING YOUNG PEOPLE.

YOU ARE PROVIDING SUPPORT TO YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL DEVELOPING, AND YOU ARE BASICALLY SAYING YOU ARE OFF TRACK, SO WE WILL GET YOU ON TRACK.

PHILLIP: SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT, LONG TERM.

LOOK, THIS REPORT IS SOBER.

IT IS NOT ATTEMPTING TO BE CELEBRATORY AND SO ON AND SO FORTH, BUT THERE ARE ASPECTS THAT WE CAN CELEBRATE.

SO LET’S TAKE THE LAST FEW MINUTES OF THIS PROGRAM TO SEE WHAT IS IT IN THE REPORT, RAHSAAN, THAT MIGHT BE CONSIDERED IF NOT A REASON FOR CELEBRATION A REASON FOR HOPE?

RAHSAAN: AND I THINK I STARTED WITH THIS IS THAT WE HAVE SEEN THE REDUCTIONS IN ARREST AND CRIME WITH A CORRESPONDING REDUCTION OR ARREST IN INCARCERATION RATHER WITH A CORRESPONDING REDUCTION IN CRIME RATES, AND I THINK THAT IS A POSITIVE THING SEPARATE AND APART FROM THE GROSS RACIAL DISPARITIES THAT ARE PERSISTENT, AND I THINK ANOTHER THING TO CELEBRATE IN THE REPORT IS THE INTENTIONAL CALLING OUT OF THE NEED TO ADDRESS THOSE RACIAL DISPARITIES AND THE INTENTIONALITY NEEDED TO BUILD OUT A MORE ROBUST DATA SET.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING, BUT WITHOUT THE DATA IT IS HARD TO CONVINCE LAWMAKERS THAT THIS PATH IS THE PATH THAT WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO STAY ON.

PHILLIP: SOPHIA, YOUR THOUGHTS?

SOPHIA: WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT ABOUT THIS REPORT IS IT YELLS TO ME THIS IS THE BEGINNING, NOT THE END.

WHAT I HOPE PEOPLE TAKE AWAY FROM IT IS THICK INVESTMENT THAT IS SO CRITICAL IN TRACKING THE DISPARITIES MUCH MORE CAREFULLY.

FIVE YEARS FROM NOW IF WE DO THE WORK WE MADE THAT -- MAY BE AT THE CORE CAUSES, AND THAT IS WHAT THIS BILL IS INTENDED TO DO .

IT SHOULD CUT AGAINST THIS OPPOSITION AGAINST THIS CRIMINALITY PIECE.

AT LEAST WE HAVE NEW LANGUAGE AND THE RESOURCES TO COMBAT THE OPPOSITION COULD USE YOU AS TACTICS.

PHILLIP: LEON, FINAL WORD HERE?

LEON: THE IMPORTANCE OF TRANSPARENCY AND HAVING THIS TYPE OF DATA.

FOR A LONG TIME THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF OPACITY WHERE WE DID NOT HAVE THIS TYPE OF DATA NOT JUST ON THE SYSTEM OVERALL BUT REALLY LOOKING AT HOW THE SYSTEM TREATS PEOPLE BY RACE.

FOR A LONG TIME WE DID NOT HAVE THAT.

THIS IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT.

PEOPLE WHO COME WITH THESE TYPES OF NARRATIVES IN FEAR MONGERING, WE ALWAYS HAVE TO SAY DOES THE DATA SUPPORT THAT.

IT DOES NOT.

TO SOPHIA’S POINT WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO PUSH FOR THIS TYPE OF DATA IN PUBLIC RECORD SO ANY TIME PEOPLE START THESE NARRATIVES, WE SAY "NO, WE WILL LOOK AT THE DATA BECAUSE THE DATA SHOWS REFORM DOES WORK."

THIS DATA IS THE RECEIPTS THAT THE REFORM THAT WE ALL FOUGHT FOR WORK, AND WE NEED TO CONTINUE ON THE SAME PATH.

PHILLIP: THE RECEIPTS.

RADHA: TWO POINTS, IT SHOWS THAT INCARCERATION IT IS NOT THE SOLUTION TO PUBLIC SAFETY AND THAT DECARCERATION AND DECRIMINALIZATION TO WORK.

THAT IS NUMBER ONE.

GOVERNOR OF TRANSPARENCY, WE NEED ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

WE CANNOT CALL IT A CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND IS WITH YOU DECRIMINALIZATION, DECARCERATIO N, MONEY IN COMMUNITIES, SO WE NEED REPORTS FOR ACCOUNTABILITY FOR DOC, FOR EVERYONE IN THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM WE NEED THAT, SO IN THAT SENSE IT IS GOOD.

PHILLIP: THIS REPORT IS A LONG TIME COMING.

IT IS FIVE YEARS.

THOSE ARE YOUR TAKEAWAYS.

I REALLY APPRECIATED.

THAT’S THE END OF OUR BROADCAST AND THE END OF OUR SHOW.

IT GOES FAST.

THANK YOU TO ALL OF OUR GUESTS, AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

NOW STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS, YOU TUBE AND FACEBOOK.

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