♪♪♪ Scott: Many are calling October 7, 2023 Israel's version of 911.

Some estimate that over 1,400 Jews died as a result of Hamas' attack, and over 200 Israeli and foreign nationals are still being held captive in Gaza.

Sacramento's mayor, Darrell Steinberg, issued a strong statement in the aftermath of the attack, expressing his outrage and concern over these events.

He joins us today to share his thoughts and perspective as a leader and as a member of the Jewish community.

Mayor Steinberg, after the attack, you made a statement that began, “I am a mayor.

I am a father, a son and a friend.

I am first and foremost a Jew.

” On a personal level, how has October 7th affected you and yours?

Darrell: It has affected me deeply.

Um, like Jews throughout the country and the world, this was the worst civilian attack on the Jewish people since the Holocaust.

1,400 people massacred.

Uh, 200 plus people being held hostage.

The 1,400 number is equivalent to about 25 to 30,000 uh, Americans, if this were to happen in America, given the scale of the population.

25 or 30,000 Americans massacred.

And so this, uh, was and continues to be a horrendous event, a trauma, uh, for the Jewish community and a reminder of the historic atrocities that have been perpetrated against Jewish people.

And it's accompanied by a pretty dramatic rise in anti-Semitism throughout the country and throughout the world.

We're not immune to it in Sacramento, but certainly it is a reminder that one of history's, uh, oldest prejudices.

Uh, the stain of anti-Semitism, um, continues, uh, to rear its ugly head in way too many places.

Scott: Share with us what you wanted, all of us who heard your words, to understand at the moment that you were expressing them.

What is it you wanted us to know?

Darrell: Well, I...

I suppose it goes back to the fact that, um, I have multiple roles and maybe multiple identities that all converge together.

Um, I am the mayor of all the people of Sacramento.

Um, and yes, uh, I am a father and a son and a husband and a friend.

And I said, I am also, or first and foremost, uh, a proud member of the Jewish community, because that is an identity that even if I wanted to change it, I could not.

Uh, and I don't want to change it.

And what Ive...what I've tried to say and what I've continued to say and, uh, in the weeks since is that it's okay.

And in fact, I think it is important that all of us as human beings hold on to multiple truths.

I said this week at a rally sponsored by the Jewish Federation that I will never minimize the suffering of innocent civilians in Gaza.

I will never minimize the suffering of the Palestinian people.

I have been very outspoken over the years in terms of my criticism of the Netanyahu government and, uh, the need to end settlements and for a two-state solution.

And, not but, and at the same time, I have been distressed, more than distressed by how in too many circles, the massacre of 1,400 Jewish people has sort of conveniently been, um, uh, if not forgotten, barely mentioned at some of the community rallies here in Sacramento and throughout the country.

Um, the Hamas... action on the 7th of October was not about the Palestinian cause.

It was not about, um, standing up for a two-state solution.

It was terrorism.

And it was a massacre, pure and simple.

And so what troubles me, um, and what I think is if not unique about the Jewish experience, it's something that we feel very, very deeply, is that it's convenient for the world to move on pretty quickly and then have the conversation about the conflict and about the causes and effects of the conflict without acknowledging what happened to the Jewish people and how wrong it was.

We hear it, you know, the implicit it and sometimes explicit rationalization.

Well, that was bad, but it was somehow justified because of the history or the Israeli government.

Um, or... or that, um, you know, uh, there is suffering on both sides.

Of course, there is suffering on both sides.

And it's incumbent upon me as a Jew and as a-- as the city's mayor, to acknowledge and speak up on behalf of injustice, however and wherever it occurs.

And so, I try to, um, live multiple realities.

A-and I think it is important that, um, the Jewish community be heard, too, and heard to say that it is not okay to just move on from what occurred on October the 7th, that you can be critical of Israel, you can be for Palestinian rights as I am, you can be for a two-state solution and at the same time, without equivocation, you can and must condemn what Hamas did and... and not then condition it upon something else.

Scott: So, to go a little bit deeper on this, cause you mentioned the Nakba and we'll... well get to that.

But to go a little bit deeper on the point that you just made, is it your feeling a-and perception at this point that the... the general community, the press, the political leadership, particularly in this country, but maybe extending to the world, uh, are trying to move past the events of October 7 and essentially already changed the conversation?

Darrell: Not uniformly.

I think President Biden and his administration have been, uh, outstanding, including their continued efforts to free the hostages, which are people who should not be forgotten.

I think President Biden has also called for, uh... uh... uh... a-- an Israeli response that both protects its people from any future terrorism from Hamas and at the same time minimize civilian casualties.

Uh, I think that is all not only appropriate, uh, and right.

But in some circles, yes, including among, um, some on the left.

There has been, um, a quick shift-- if there was ever an acknowledgment of, uh, of the terror of what Hamas did and how wrong, morally and otherwise their... their acts are.

Um, there was a quick shift, uh, to, uh, then talking about the rights of... of other people and the conflict itself.

Well, I think we have to be... we have to be able, if we believe it, to be able to hold mutual thoughts or thoughts that may seem conflicting, but really aren't.

You can condemn Hamas and still be for the rights of the Palestinian people.

That's where I think most people are.

But it is plain not right, um, for, uh, for some to move on from what happened and shift the conversation without acknowledging the historic atrocity that occurred on October the 7.

Scott: I want to share something with you, uh, in... in conversations that I've had in preparation for this... this conversation.

I've talked to leaders in the Muslim community and their perspective, you might not be surprised, is that they actually would say almost your exact words, but in reverse, relating to their own community that they feel that the... the suffering, uh, and the violence that innocent members of their extended community are suffering have been completely subsumed and are not getting, uh, enough... enough exposure.

And that, frankly, that the focus on, uh, the focus on the broader, uh, implications and tragedy that the Israelis, um, over in Israel experienced have completely wiped their issues off of the map in terms of the... the national and international conversation.

How do you react to that?

Because it kind of shows where the-- that there is a gulf in people.

Darrell: There is a-- there is-- Scott: Theyre sharing the same opinion, but completely focused on their own community?

Darrell: Well, it speaks to the need, uh, to continue the hardest of hard work to better understand each other.

But let me say very clearly where I stand.

I believe that Israel has a right and a duty to protect its people by doing everything, um, that it can to eliminate Hamas and to do so in a way that, um, minimizes the impact, uh, and the suffering of innocent Gazans, innocent Palestinians.

Absolutely.

And where there are people from an-- any side that are suffering needlessly, we all need to speak to that and we all need to call it out.

And so, I-I...

I have and I count myself very fortunate to have built a very strong relationship with the leaders of the Muslim-American community in Sacramento.

And that relationship, um, is really, really important, both, um, as a model for how people who may have different points of view on the most sensitive of issues can actually not only get along, but work together.

And I remain committed to that.

Uh, I just, um, I'm speaking my truth, um, as an American Jew who has seen, um, the response in some quarters, too many quarters, that have moved on very quickly from a historic atrocity.

That does not negate, uh, nor does it mean that it's any less important that we call out and that I call out the... the innocent su-- the suffering of innocent people on the Palestinian side and in Gaza.

Scott: And... and that's-- that is part of where I would like you to spend a little bit of time.

I spoke with a friend of mine who also is a member of the Jewish community the day after the attacks.

And she told me that this was different in that this was not a theoretical, uh, atroci-- set of atrocities that happened halfway around the world, that every person that she spoke to from her community either had a direct loved one or friend or knew of a loved one or friend of someone that they were connected with who was either killed, injured or at risk at that moment.

Fast forward to speaking with leaders of the Muslim community.

I heard the same thing, um, from their... their leadership as well.

And when these issues are so upfront in that we are all connected, what does that inform us of our responsibility as individual citizens living in fortress USA as to what we need to be doing-- Darrell: Well-- Scott: As part of trying to... to move towards something that's better than what we're experiencing right now?

Darrell: Well, to always call for peace and to work for peace and to continue to be advocates for, uh, for a two-state solution and peaceful coexistence between Jews and Palestinians, between Jews and Arabs.

There's a lot of history here.

Um, there... there-- uh, the Israelis argue, and I think with some real truth and foundation, that on the Palestinian side there have not been real partners for peace over the course of the decades.

Arafat turned down Bill Clinton's best offer for a two-state solution in 2000.

That historic record is clear.

It's also true that as the Israeli government has gotten more right wing, that the settlements have made it harder to negotiate peace.

And that's wrong.

And so, together, we have to continue to, uh, understand each other's pain, understand each other's history.

And we have to be promoters of peace.

And we have to do so in a way where we're not yelling at each other because we know that in this country and throughout the world, for a variety of reasons, we blame social media a lot.

It's that but it's more.

Um, you know, was Trump the cause or the symptom?

That it's seemingly okay to treat one another as the other without understanding our common humanity and without trying to be peacemakers and problem solvers.

And so, I-- again, I have to reconcile what I just said, which is that it is my role and my job as mayor, but just also as a human being to understand everybody, to speak out against everyone suffering and to try my best to be a peacemaker and at the same time to express my own hurt that is felt by Jews throughout this country, throughout our community, throughout our country.

That it's not okay, it's not okay in too many quarters to just skip over the massacre of 1,400 people.

I'm not saying everybody's done that.

I'm not saying the majority of people have done that.

But when I've seen the rallies and when I have seen the... the immediate shift from sympathy to well, again, implicitly or explicitly, that this was somehow understandable or justifiable, it is not.

Even if... even if the Palestinians and the people who believe that the Israeli government is wrong, um, are right about what it's going to take.

Nothing, nothing, nothing justifies what Hamas did to massacre innocent people.

And I just want that said, clearly.

Not but-- And let's look at what it is going to take to remedy injustice... around the bend and... and make-- and have a better chance for peace.

Scott: And you're correct in your references to, um, that there is a lot of distrust and, uh, very, very difficult issues.

One of the things that I've heard from the Muslim community is their concern that this is going to be-- in asking the people of Gaza to relocate-- that this is going to be what they call another Nakba.

And the quote that they tend to reference comes from a... a gentleman named Ariel Kallner who's a member of parliament for Prime Minister Netanyahu's Likud Party, who says, “right now one goal: Nakba!

A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48.

Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join!

” And... um... theres a level of distrust that ultimately serves those who are the enemies of peace.

Darrell: Well, that's why we don't have peace, I mean, uh, from all quarters.

But vengeance is never the right motive.

Never.

Israel has a duty to make sure that Hamas itself is no longer so that the people of Israel no longer have to endure, or the risk of enduring, what they endured.

Unspeakable evil they endured on the 7th of October.

So, Israel confronts a challenge that, um, that is... is how do they protect their people without harming people that are innocent and that they have you know, as of our taping here, they have not, uh, done a ground invasion.

And I...

I...

I just hope and pray and call for, uh, protecting civilians, of course.

Scott: What choices do you think that Israel has before it at this moment, in terms of, um, we're in a moment of it seems like that there are no good immediate solutions.

But what do you see that are kind of the paths forward that at present?

Darrell: Well, I'm not, um, there and I'm not a member of the American foreign policy team, but I know that, um, it's not just Gaza.

It's the north.

Hezbollah, uh, backed by Iran, is firing rockets and... and there's a real threat of war, uh, on Israel's other borders.

And so, they've got a multi-front challenge.

Theyre-- Uh, I-- and... and I know from what I read and... and what I see that the Biden administration is encouraging, um, Israel to rid themselves of Hamas, but do so in a way that minimizes the impact on people.

And that may not be-- boy, that... that balance certainly is nowhere close to perfect and it may not even be possible.

Scott: I want to talk about... I-I want to talk about balance for a second.

Darrell: Yes.

Scott: You spoke to this a little bit earlier about progressives and, uh, people on the left in your own party.

You've always been known as a progressive Democrat.

What's your view of some within your own party-- and... and I'm going to call out one member in particular as representative, that's Rashida Tlaib, the congressperson from, uh, Detroit in Dearborn, who calls Israel's control of the Palestinian territories an apartheid system.

Um, and that, uh, that system is what led to the events and circumstances.

And before you respond-- the reason that I'm asking you this question is because, uh, there is-- there seems to be a generational, uh, divide, at least a generational divide within the Democratic Party, on how to view the issues and circumstances on the ground right now.

How... how are you viewing, uh, that type of language and that type of perspective?

Darrell: Well, it bothers me, it it troubles me because I don't think it acknowledges the other side.

Um, I oppose Israels settlements.

I believe in a two-state solution.

And I do not believe anything justifies what Hamas did on October 7.

A-and i-if we sort of can... ca-- can hear one another on... on...on that kind of framing, then there's a chance to... to develop more allyship, more coalition.

But when somebody is not seen or heard and in this instance I'm talking about... a-about what I've seen in some quarters since the 7th of October, and it invokes his-history, how the Jewish people have been seen in too many instances of history as less than human.

When we say the worst atrocities since the Holocaust, the Holocaust was in-- within the lifetime of people, obviously, who are still living today.

That is very real.

It is very searing.

And...and... and so it's about seeing each other, seeing each other's humanity and calling out wrong wherever it exists.

I think the settlements are wrong.

I think that nothing justifies what Hamas did.

Scott: A-and...and when we talk about the suffering, 1,400, uh... uh, Israelis killed so far and over 200 that are still being held hostage.

5,000, according to UN News, 5,000 Palestinians have already perished as well.

You have always been known a-as a man of optimism and solution building.

And in our final moments, give us your one wish for what happens next.

Darrell: Obviously, my wish is that, um, extremism be extinguished here.

That... that... that people and leaders who want and desire peace, have positions of responsibility and the ability to take another horrific chapter of history and use it in some way to... to forge peace.

That's what I hope, of course.

Um, there is going to be some reckoning in Israel, uh, for the failures of the leadership to not anticipate what occurred.

I hope Hamas is, in fact, destroyed and I hope that what then... what then occurs is a vacuum that allows for, uh, resumption of... of a settlement that is the only, only answer.

Ultimately, it's the only, only answer.

Maybe the hardest thing to achieve, and yet the only way that there will be something other than this horror that millions of people experience in a very important part of the world.

Scott: And I think we'll leave it there.

Thank you, Mayor Steinberg, for your voice and your perspective at this most difficult time.

Darrell: Thank you, Scott.

Scott: And that's our show.

Thanks to our guest and thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

♪♪♪ Scott Syphax: All episodes of Studio Sacramento along with other KVIE programs are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.