♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >>> WELCOME TO "DIALOGUE," A DISCUSSION SERIES PRODUCED BY WOSU PUBLIC MEDIA AND OSU'S JOHN GLENN COLLEGE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS.

I'M MIKE THOMPSON WOSU'S NEWS CONTENT DIRECTOR AND I'LL MODERATE OUR CONVERSATION.

OUR TOPIC, CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

WHAT IS IT?

AND WHY HAS IT COME UNDER ATTACK?

CRITICAL RACE THEORY EMERGED IN THE MID 1970s BUT IN THE LAST TWO YEARS IT HAS RISEN TO PROMINENCE.

SOCIAL JUSTICE PROTESTS HAVE CAUSED US TO RETHINK WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE HISTORY OF RACE IN AMERICA.

FROM THE ROLE SLAVERY PLAYED IN BUILDING OUR ECONOMY AND ITS PART INFORMING POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS.

TO A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT EVENTS LIKE THE TULSA RACE MASSACRE.

MANY QUESTIONS AND LESSONS WE LEARNED OR DID NOT LEARN IN SCHOOL.

CRITICAL RACE THEORY OR "CRT" ARGUES RACISM IS EMBEDDED IN THE AMERICAN LEGAL AND ECONOMIC SYSTEMS.

MANY DISAGREE HOWEVER.

THEY ARGUE SUPPORTERS OF "CRT" ARE TRYING TO DIVIDE AMERICA AND REWRITE HISTORY.

OVER THE NEXT HOUR I HOPE TO LIVE UP TO THE MISSION OF THIS DIALOGUE SERIES AND DIG DEEPER INTO THIS CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC IN AN HONEST AND CIVIL MANNER.

OUR GUESTS ARE HASAN KWAME JEFFERIES ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF HISTORY FOR OSU.

AND AUTHOR VINCE ELLISON WHO IS A MEMBER OF THE PROJECT 21 BLACK LEADERSHIP NETWORK.

WELCOME TO YOU BOTH AND THANKS VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE ON "DIALOGUE."

LET'S START WITH SOME DEFINITIONS.

PROFESSOR JEFFERIES, HOW WOULD YOU DEFINE CRITICAL RACE THEORY?

>> WELL IT'S NOT THAT COMPLICATED.

AS YOU POINTED OUT IN THE OPENING IT IS A LEGAL FRAMEWORK THAT WAS DEVELOPED BY A SET AND SERIES OF AFRICAN AMERICAN LEGAL THEORISTS IN THE 1970S.

KIMBERLE CRENSHAW AND DERRICK BELL.

THAT SIMPLY SAID, IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND AMERICA IN THE PRESENT, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE ROLE OF RACE AND RACISM IN AMERICA'S PAST AND PRESENT.

THAT IS IT.

IT'S NOTHING MORE THAN THAT.

IT'S A WAY OF SIMPLY MAKING SENSE OF AMERICA'S CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

IT'S WAY FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BENEFITED FROM IT AND THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HARMED FROM IT.

IT'S A WAY TO MAKE SENSE OF AMERICA'S CAPITALIST ECONOMIC SYSTEM.

THOSE WHO HAVE BENEFITED FROM IT AND THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HARMED FROM IT.

SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT IN ITS MOST SIMPLEST AS WELL AS ITS MOST COMPLEX TERMS, IT REALLY IS NOT THAT COMPLICATED.

>> VINCE ELLISON, DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT DEFINITION OR DO YOU JUST DISAGREE WITH THE PREMISE OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

>> NO, NO, I AGREE WITH THE DEFINITION.

THE DEFINITION IS BASICALLY SPOT ON.

I DISAGREE WITH HOW THEY ARE SAYING WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT AND HOW WE HAVE TO OVERCOME IT.

I BELIEVE THAT IN EVERY CIVILIZATION YOU'VE HAD A HIERARCHY BASED UPON UNEARNED PRIVILEGES.

WHETHER IT BE HEIGHT, WHETHER IT BE INTELLIGENCE, WHETHER IT BE BORN INTO A ROYAL FAMILY.

IN AMERICA THEY SAY THAT IT IS RACE, OKAY.

I BELIEVE I WAS BORN WITH SOME UNEARNED PRIVILEGES.

ONE WAS BEING BORN WITH TWO GREAT PARENTS.

A GREAT FAMILY.

ONE WAS BEING BORN AMERICAN.

I THINK IT'S AN UNEARNED PRIVILEGE.

AND CONTRARY TO WHAT A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT THINK, BEING BORN BLACK TO ME IS A PRIVILEGE.

I DON'T THINK IT'S A BURDEN AT ALL.

MAN, IF I COULD CHOOSE TO BE ANYBODY IN THE WORLD, I'D CHOOSE TO BE ME AND I'D CHOOSE TO BE A BLACK ME.

SO BEING BLACK TO ME IS NOT SOMETHING THAT HAS LEAD ME TO NOT BE ABLE TO DO WHAT I'VE WANTED TO DO IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT MORE THAN ANYTHING I HAVE MY UNEARNED PRIVILEGE OF BEING BORN AN HEIR TO JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD.

THEREFORE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO FEEL INFERIOR TO ANYONE AND I'VE NEVER MET ANY MAN THAT'S SUPERIOR TO ME.

SO WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO SYSTEMIC RACISM OR "CRT," IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY EFFECT ON ME ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, BECAUSE A RACIST IS A FOOL.

HE'S AN IDIOT.

LET HIM UNDERESTIMATE ME IF HE WANTS TO, I'LL PROVE HIM WRONG IN THE END.

SO I KNOW RACISM EXISTS, I BELIEVE THAT SYSTEMIC RACISM MAY BE PART IN SOME WAY OF THE AMERICAN CULTURE.

HOWEVER I DON'T BELIEVE THAT I HAVE TO OVERCOME IT BY ASKING MY OPPONENT FOR RESPITE OR FOR FORBEARANCE.

I'LL OVERCOME IT BY DEFEATING HIM, BY BEING BETTER THAN HIM, BY OUT GRINDING HIM.

AND THAT'S WHAT I'VE DONE IN MY LIFE.

SO I AM EXPERT AT MY LIFE EXPERIENCES AND THE PEOPLE AROUND ME AND HOW THEY'VE ACCOMPLISHED GREAT THINGS.

AND I THINK THAT EVERY AMERICAN, IF THEY ARE TAUGHT THERE ARE RACISTS OUT THERE, RACISTS ARE MEAN, RACISTS ARE VICIOUS, BUT THAT'S WHY I AM A CONSERVATIVE.

IF THIS SYSTEM IS SYSTEMIC, AND IF IT IS RACIST, AND IF IT IS MEAN, I WANT TO SHRINK IT.

I DON'T WANT TO EXPAND IT.

THAT'S ONE THING THAT KIND OF CONFUSES ME WHEN IT COMES LIBERALS.

THEY SAY THE SYSTEM IS RACIST, THE SYSTEM IS MEAN, THE SYSTEM IS OPPRESSIVE.

WE WANT TO EXPAND THE SYSTEM AND PUT IT OVER US.

I WANT TO HELP DISMANTLE IT -- >> LET'S GET HASAN KWAME JEFFERIES TO WEIGH IN HERE.

HASAN -- CRITICAL RACE THEORY IS IT A CONTINUUM, HAVE WE SEEN -- HAS THE SYSTEM CHANGED OVER THE COURSE OF OUR HISTORY, OVER THE 250 YEARS OF THE REPUBLIC AND THEN THE HUNDRED OR SO YEARS BEFORE THAT -- BEFORE SLAVERY EVEN -- WHEN IT STARTED ON THIS CONTINENT.

>> OF COURSE.

OF COURSE THERE'S BEEN CHANGE.

THERE'S BEEN CHANGE OVER TIME, THERE HAS BEEN SUBSTANTIAL PROGRESS MADE AS SLAVERY ENDED 150 YEARS AGO.

LEGAL SEGREGATION ENDED 100 YEARS AGO.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE SYSTEMS THAT BORE SLAVERY, THAT GAVE BIRTH TO JIM CROW SUDDENLY BEGAN TO PRODUCE, OR STOP PRODUCING AND REPRODUCING INEQUALITY AFTER 1965.

AND SO YES ON ITS SURFACE WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE WAYS IN WHICH CHANGE HAS OCCURRED.

BUT IN DOING THAT WE ALSO HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE WHY CHANGE HAS OCCURRED.

IT HASN'T SIMPLY OCCURRED BECAUSE TIME HAS PASSED.

TIME IS A NOT SOCIAL FORCE CAPABLE OF CREATING CHANGE.

TIME IS SIMPLY A UNIT OF MEASUREMENT.

IT HAS CHANGED BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE CALLED OUT THE WAYS IN WHICH INEQUALITY IS REPRODUCED.

NOT ONLY THROUGH THE ACTIONS OF INDIVIDUALS AND THE BELIEFS OF INDIVIDUALS, BUT ALSO THROUGH THE ACTIONS OF THE STATE.

THROUGH SYSTEMS AND STRUCTURES.

THE MORTGAGE SYSTEM FOR EXAMPLE.

THE WAY IT HAS REPRODUCED INEQUALITY.

HAS REPRODUCED DISCRIMINATION.

EVEN WHEN THE LAWS HAVE CHANGED IN SAYING THAT WE SHOULD NOT DO IT.

SO PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE.

CHANGE HAS BEEN MADE, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE HAVE REACHED THAT MORE PERFECT UNITY.

>> ONE OF THE TENANTS OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY IS THAT RACE IS TOTALLY MANMADE.

BASICALLY THERE IS NO DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE RACES BIOLOGICALLY AND CRITICAL RACE SUPPORTERS ARGUE THAT RACE IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT DEVELOPED BY ONE GROUP TO DOMINATE ANOTHER GROUP.

VINCE ELLISON, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT TENET OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY?

>> RACE?

I AGREE THAT RACE DOES NOT EXIST.

IT'S AN ARTIFICIAL CONSTRUCT, BUT I ALSO BELIEVE THAT IT IS INDIVIDUAL.

SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST VIRULENT AND MEAN SPIRITED RACISTS.

OTHERS ARE JUST AS NICE AS THEY CAN BE.

IT'S NOT AN ABSOLUTE.

IT'S ON A SLIDING SCALE.

IN MY LIFE, WHAT I HAVE DONE IS I'VE BROUGHT GOOD PEOPLE TO ME AND I'VE PUSHED BAD PEOPLE AWAY.

AGAIN, I BELIEVE IN INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM AND I BELIEVE IN BEING A MAN.

THEREFORE I SAY I AM SUPPOSE TO ARM MYSELF WITH KNOWLEDGE FOR THE WISE MAN AND WITH A GUN FOR THE FOOL.

I DO NOT DEPEND ON MY GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT ME, I PROTECT MYSELF.

AND BECAUSE I PROTECT MYSELF I DON'T HAVE WHITE RACISTS OR ANY TYPE OF RACISTS COME TO ME AND DO ME ANY TYPE OF HARM.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT A RACIST GOVERNMENT THAT WAS OF COURSE SUPPORTED BY GEORGE WALLACE AND ORVAL FAUBUS AND LESTER MADDOX MANY OR MANY OF THESE RACISTS THAT ARE IN THE GOVERNMENT WILL EVER PROTECT ME.

THEREFORE IT MY POSITION THAT I PROTECT MYSELF, I PROTECT MY FAMILY, I PROTECT MY PROPERTY.

SO WHEN WE START TALKING ABOUT THESE SYSTEMS AND WE START TALKING ABOUT ASKING THESE SYSTEMS TO CHANGE, I THINK WE NEED TO CHANGE OURSELVES.

BECAUSE WE NEED TO COME TO A BASIC CONCLUSION HERE.

THE POLICE ARE NOT BOUND TO PROTECT YOU.

EVEN LEGALLY THE SUPREME COURT HAS RULED THAT YOU CANNOT SUE THE POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR PROTECTING YOU.

YOUR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS GIVE YOU, WELL YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROTECT YOURSELF, YOU NEED TO EXERCISE IT AS A FREE MAN AND I AM NOT BEGGING THE GOVERNMENT TO DO ANYTHING FOR ME.

I AM TELLING THEM TO GET OUT OF MY WAY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

HASAN, AGAIN THIS TENET THAT RACE IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT, BUT IT IS A VERY INGRAINED PART OF AMERICAN LIFE.

IT MAY NOT BE BIOLOGIC BUT IT'S PART OF WHO WE ARE AS A SOCIETY.

SO DOES THAT PUT IT -- IT'S MANMADE BUT IT'S ALSO, IT'S HERE TO STAY AT LEAST FOR THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE, WOULD YOU AGREE?

>> WELL THAT'S THE CONUNDRUM.

AND THIS IS WHERE MR. ELLISON AND I AGREE.

THAT RACE IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT, RACE IS NOT REAL.

IT'S BIOLOGICALLY MEANINGLESS.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT IS SOCIALLY MEANINGFUL AND IT'S ALSO CULTURALLY RELEVANT.

BECAUSE WE USE RACE AS A STAND IN FOR CULTURAL HERITAGE AND CULTURAL ANCESTORY AND IT'S SOCIALLY MEANINGFUL BECAUSE WE HAVE USED RACE, SPEAKING BROADLY, OVER THE LAST 500 YEARS IN GLOBAL SOCIETY TO CREATE HIERARCHY AND PRIVILEGE FOR SOME AND DISADVANTAGE OTHERS.

SO IN THAT SENSE WE CAN'T PRETEND AS THOUGH RACE ISN'T RELEVANT, ALTHOUGH IT'S BIOLOGICALLY MEANINGLESS.

SO ON THAT POINT WE AGREE.

BUT I THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT WHILE ON THE ONE HAND WE SAY RACE ISN'T REAL, BUT WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT RACISM IS REAL.

AND THIS IS I THINK WHERE MR. ELLISON AND I DEPART.

AND IT MANIFESTS ITSELF IN BOTH PERSONAL WAYS.

PREJUDICIAL BELIEFS AND BEHAVIORS.

BUT IT ALSO MANIFESTS ITSELF IN INSTITUTIONAL WAYS.

SYSTEMS AND STRUCTURES.

IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.

MR. ELLISON HAD POINTED OUT AND REFERENCED SORT OF BULL CONNOR AND GEORGE WALLACE AND ALABAMA IN 1963.

IF THE PROBLEM IN ALABAMA WHEN MARTIN LUTHER KING WENT DOWN THERE IN 1963 AND CONFRONTED THE POLICE AND THAT POLICE STATE WITH AN ATTEMPT TO OVERTURN JIM CROW.

IF THE PROBLEM IN ALABAMA SIMPLY HAD BEEN THE PREJUDICIAL BELIEFS AND BEHAVIORS OF AN INDIVIDUAL GEORGE WALLACE, THEN THE SOLUTION TO POLICE VIOLENCE, THE SOLUTION TO ECONOMIC INEQUALITY, THE SOLUTION TO RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IN ALABAMA WOULD HAVE BEEN REALLY SIMPLE.

JUST REMOVE BULL CONNOR.

AND THEY SUCCEEDED IN DOING THAT TWO MONTHS AFTER THE MOVEMENT BEGAN.

AND GUESS WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

RACISM DID NOT END.

INEQUALITY DID NOT END.

STRUCTURAL INEQUALITY, JOB DISCRIMINATION DID NOT END.

POVERTY DID NOT END.

AND IT SIMPLY WASN'T BECAUSE BLACK FOLK WEREN'T WORKING HARD ENOUGH.

IT'S BECAUSE THE WAY IN WHICH THIS SYSTEM FOR 250 -- ODD YEARS, THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM BORN IN SLAVERY AND CONTINUING THROUGH JIM CROW HAD NOT CHANGED.

>> VINCE ELLISON, DON'T YOU AGREE, YOU'RE VERY PASSIONATE -- THAT INDIVIDUALLY YOU ARE FIGHTING THIS FIGHT ON YOUR OWN.

YOU'RE PROUD OF WHO YOU ARE, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE SOMEBODY ELSE TELL YOU WHO YOU ARE, WHAT YOU CAN AND CAN NOT DO, BUT NOT EVERYONE IS IN THAT SITUATION.

IS THERE A ROLE FOR GOVERNMENT, FOR THE COMMUNITY, FOR PEOPLE OF ALL RACES TO FIGHT DISCRIMINATION AS A GROUP RATHER THAN WAIT FOR INDIVIDUALS TO MAKE THAT PROGRESS ON THEIR OWN, INDIVIDUALLY.

>> NO.

GOVERNMENT WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

IT NEVER HAS, IT NEVER WILL.

THE PROBLEM ISN'T THAT SOME WHITE PEOPLE THINK THEY'RE SUPERIOR.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT TOO MANY BLACK PEOPLE BELIEVE THEY ARE INFERIOR.

TOO MANY BLACK PEOPLE BELIEVE IT.

AS I SAY AGAIN, THE GREATEST THING YOU CAN TEACH SOMEBODY IS TO LOVE THEMSELVES.

THAT'S SOMETHING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT DID NOT DO.

IT TAUGHT TO TRY TO CHANGE THE MINDS OF WHITE PEOPLE TOWARD US.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK.

>> HOW ABOUT THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE LOT OF PRIDE IN WHO YOU ARE, BUT IF YOU HAD TO COUNT THE JELLY BEANS IN A JAR TO BE ABLE TO VOTE, I MEAN THAT WAS A ROLE FOR GOVERNMENT.

TO CHANGE THAT LAW.

TO DO AWAY WITH THOSE KIND OF PRACTICES, WHICH WERE DESIGNED TO KEEP BLACK PEOPLE FROM EXPRESSING THEIR RIGHT TO VOTE.

>> BLACK PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE RIGHT NOW.

AND THEY'RE STILL VOTING IN PEOPLE THAT ARE LOCKING THEM IN BAD SCHOOLS, LOCKING THEM IN GHETTOS, ABORTING THEIR BABIES, TAKING THEIR GUNS AWAY, OPENING THE BORDER.

THE VOTE WASN'T A THING THAT DID ANYTHING FOR US.

WHAT WILL FREE BLACK PEOPLE IS GETTING CONNECTED BACK WITH THEIR GOD, UNDERSTANDING ECONOMICS, LEARNING HOW TO BUY AND SELL.

AND ALSO ARMING YOURSELF TO DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO ANY RACIST THAT WILL BOTHER YOU.

SEE, COWARDICE ALWAYS BRINGS ABOUT AGGRESSION.

WE HAD MORE BLACK MEN IN SOUTH CAROLINA AND MISSISSIPPI THAN WE HAD WHITE PEOPLE AND WE HAD THE RIGHT TO VOTE BACK IN 1870, BUT WE WERE TOO AFRAID TO EXERCISE IT.

WE WOULDN'T EXERCISE OUR RIGHT TO VOTE BECAUSE THERE WAS BLACK MALE COWARDICE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

AND RIGHT NOW THE SMASH AND GRABS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHITE RACISM.

THE DOPE BEING SOLD, THE PEOPLE BEING SHOT, IT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH WHITE RACISM.

WE'RE DOING IT TO OURSELVES.

IT IS A FRATRICIDE, IT'S A DYSTOPIA WHERE WE ARE RUNNING -- WE ARE THE GOVERNORS, WE ARE THE CITY COUNCIL, WE ARE THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE SCHOOLS.

>> HASAN KWAME JEFFRIES, I WANT TO GET YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS.

>> IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHITE RACISM, IT HAS TO DO WITH US.

>> HASAN, LET ME GET YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS.

THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT, OF COMMUNITY ORGANIZING TO COMBAT RACISM.

IS IT ESSENTIAL IN THIS STRUGGLE?

>> IT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL THAT GOVERNMENT PLAY A ROLE IN REMOVING THE BARRIERS TO EQUALITY, THAT GOVERNMENT ITSELF ERECTED.

WHETHER ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL, STATE LEVEL OR LOCAL LEVEL.

GOVERNMENT IS ESSENTIAL TO PROTECT THOSE MEASURES THAT ARE DESIGNED TO ENSURE EQUALITY.

AS WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW.

SO THERE'S ABSOLUTELY A ROLE, A FUNDAMENTAL ROLE FOR GOVERNMENT IN ADDRESSING THE PROBLEMS THAT GOVERNMENT HELPED CREATE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME THAT DOES NOT MEAN, AND WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL AS WE LOOK AT HISTORY AND WE LOOK AT THE WAYS IN WHICH AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE ORGANIZED FOR CHANGE.

MR. ELLISON, YOU POINTED OUT THAT POST EMANCIPATION PERIOD WHEN AFRICAN AMERICANS SECURED THE VOTE AND THE FRANCHISE FOLLOWING THE 15th AMENDMENT.

LET'S BE CLEAR, THEY VOTED AND THEY VOTED IN GREAT NUMBERS, BUT THE REASON WHY VOTING PARTICIPATION DECLINED STARTING IN THE 1880s AND BEGINNING SOLIDLY IN 1890 AND BETWEEN 1910.

IT'S BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE STATE IN THE CONFEDERACY -- FORMER CONFEDERACY, REWROTE THEIR STATE CONSTITUTIONS FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF DISENFRANCHISING AFRICAN AMERICANS AND THEY ENFORCED THOSE MECHANISMS THROUGH RACIAL TERROR.

TWO TO THREE AFRICAN AMERICANS BEING LYNCHED PUBLICLY EVERY WEEK FOR THREE DECADES.

THAT WAS THE EFFECT.

LET'S NOT PRETEND AS THOUGH SOMEHOW BLACK MEN AND BLACK WOMEN, IDA B.

WELLS, WINCHESTER RIFLE, DESERVES A PLACE OF HONOR IN EVERY BLACK HOME -- DID NOT FIGHT BACK BECAUSE THEY FOUGHT BACK AT GREAT RISKS TO THEMSELVES AND LOST THEIR LIVES AND THAT IS NOT ANYTHING NEW, BUT A SPIRIT OF RESISTANCE BORN IN SLAVERY THAT CONTINUED EVEN BEYOND THE END OF THE HIGH POINT OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

>> ALL RIGHT THIS IS A DIALOGUE AND WE ENCOURAGE -- >> WHAT YOU MENTIONED THOUGH -- WHAT YOU MENTIONED THOUGH WAS BLACK INTIMIDATION.

WHITE INTIMIDATION ON BLACK MEN.

BLACK MEN THAT MADE UP THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION IN STATES LIKE MISSISSIPPI AND SOUTH CAROLINA AND 45-47% IN ALABAMA AND IN GEORGIA.

NOW LET'S BE CLEAR, FIGHTING BACK IS THE NOT THE SAME AS WINNING.

THE REST OF THEM DID NOT FIGHT BACK.

THE REST OF THEM WENT BACK ON PLANTATION, DID WHAT THE WHITE MAN TOLD THEM FOR OVER 100 YEARS AND ASKED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO COME DOWN TO PROTECT THEM.

AND THAT FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NOW IS STILL TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEM.

BECAUSE MOST OF THEIR CHILDREN STILL CAN'T READ, MOST OF THEIR CHILDREN HAVE BEEN ABORTED.

THEY DESTROYED THE FAMILY STRUCTURE.

THEY HAVE COMPLETELY DISMANTLED AND MADE THE BLACK COMMUNITY INTO A DYSTOPIA.

SO YOU HAVE GOVERNMENT THAT YOU ARE DEPENDING ON HAS BECOME THE MASTER AGAIN AND IS KILLING BLACK IN ASTRONOMICAL NUMBERS.

MATTER OF FACT, IF YOU GO BACK TO ABORTION.

AND IF YOU GO BACK -- AND YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON NOW IN THE CITY, WE'RE KILLING MORE OF EACH OTHER THAN THE WHITE MAN EVER KILLED.

ALSO, WITH THAT ABORTION RATE YOU KILLED 30 MILLION AND THEY DONE THAT BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN BORN.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT MASS INCARCERATION, THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING THAT.

WHY YOU DEPEND ON THE GOVERNMENT -- A TRACK RECORD OF BEATING THE HELL OUT OF BLACK PEOPLE FOR THE LAST 200 YEARS, I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY.

I WANT THEM OUT OF MY LIFE.

I DON'T WANT THEM ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY CHILDREN, I DON'T WANT THEM PROTECTING ME.

I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU LOVE THEM SO MUCH, MAN.

>> MR.ELLISON I'M GOING TO INTERRUPT YOU HERE, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A QUESTION FROM OUR AUDIENCE.

THIS IS A DIALOGUE, WE WELCOME YOU TO JOIN IN OUR CONVERSATION.

YOU CAN DO SO BY USING THE Q&A FUNCTION ON ZOOM.

IF YOU'RE A LITTLE SHY AND DON'T WANT TO ACTUALLY ASK A QUESTION YOURSELF -- YOU SEE ONE YOU LIKE -- USE THE THUMBS UP SIGN TO ENDORSE A QUESTION AND THAT WILL MOVE HIGHER UP IN THE RANKING.

DIANA BERGMEN, LET'S GO TO THE QUESTIONS.

>> UM, SOME GREAT QUESTIONS.

HERE'S ONE, KIND OF GETTING US BACK ON TRACK ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

ISN'T THE QUESTION ABOUT TRUSTING THE GOVERNMENT?

ARE OUR INSTITUTIONS BUILT ON RACISM AND, THEREFORE, FUNDAMENTALLY RACIST?

SO GETTING BACK TO -- >> -- LET'S START WITH YOU VINCE ELLSION, ARE INSTITUTIONS -- WOULD YOU AGREE THAT SOME OF OUR INSTITUTIONS HAVE A RACIST HISTORY AND SOME OF THAT HISTORY LINGERS TODAY?

>> I THINK IT HAS A RACIST HISTORY.

I THINK SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THESE INSTITUTIONS ARE RACIST.

I CAN'T SAY THAT EVERYBODY IN THE INSTITUTIONS ARE RACIST.

I THINK THAT THE MOST RACIST INSTITUTION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS THE GOVERNMENT-RUN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM.

WE SEE WHAT IT DOES IN BALTIMORE, WE SEE WHAT IT DOES IN DETROIT, IN MEMPHIS TO THESE YOUNG BLACK CHILDREN.

YET, THAT SAME GOVERNMENT THAT -- MY FRIEND DR. JEFFERY LOVES SO MUCH IS DESTROYING THE BLACK EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM AND HAS DESTROYED THE BLACK FAMILY.

AND HAS UNARMED US SO WE CAN'T DEFEND OURSELVES.

YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO DO WHAT DR. BELL SAID, WHO BASICALLY STARTED CRITICAL RACE THEORY, SAID THAT BROWN VS. BOARD OF EDUCATION WAS A BAD DECISION.

WE NEED TO GET OUR CHILDREN OUT OF A "SYSTEMICALLY RACIST SYSTEM."

WHY WE THINK THAT IT'S GOOD TO PUT BLACK CHILDREN IN A SYSTEMICALLY RACIST SYSTEM TO EDUCATE THEM IS BEYOND ME.

IT'S LIKE ASKING JEWS TO PUT THEIR CHILDREN IN A SCHOOL RUN BY NAZIS.

AND WE'VE SEEN THE END RESULT.

IT'S INSANITY.

>> HASAN JEFERIES, GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS, CAN YOU POINT TO SOME THAT THE LEGACY OF RACISM CONTINUES.

>> WELL CERTAINLY, YOU CAN LOOK AT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

SO IN THAT SENSE, I AGREE WITH WHAT MR ELLISON HAS SAID AND I FIND IT HUMOROUS THAT HE THINKS THAT I'M IN LOVE WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

I'M NOT IN LOVE WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR ANY GOVERNMENT.

WHAT I AM, IS WANT TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE AND RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OBLIGATION TO AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO ARE EQUAL CITIZENS IN THIS NATION.

SO THEY ABSOLUTELY HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO DO WHAT WE, AS TAXPAYERS, ARE PAYING THEM TO DO.

AND WHEN THEY FAIL TO DO THAT, WE HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

THERE'S A LONG HISTORY OF GOVERNMENT IRRESPONSIBILITY AND PURPOSEFULLY DISCRIMINATING AGAINST AFRICAN AMERICANS.

LET'S BE CLEAR, THAT'S NOT A SURPRISE.

CRITICAL RACE THEORY EXPLAINS THAT.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE FOLLOW THE PARTICULAR, SORT OF, CONSERVATIVE TALKING POINT OF GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM.

WELL CERTAINLY, IT HAS A LONG HISTORY OF DOING THAT BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU DON'T HOLD GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE.

BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT RESOURCES THAT WE, AS AFRICAN AMERICANS, PUT INTO IT AND CITIZENS IN THIS NATION HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY AND OBLIGATION.

NOW, WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT -- WE ALSO, ALONG THOSE VERY SAME LINES, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT, SORT OF, INDIVIDUAL RACISM AND ALL THIS OTHER STUFF.

LOOK, WE COULD TAKE OUT ALL THE PREJUDICIAL BELIEFS AND BEHAVIORS IN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA TODAY.

AND GUESS WHAT, WE WOULD STILL HAVE RACIALLY DISPARATE OUTCOMES.

WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT.

AND WE DON'T DEAL WITH THAT IF WE WANT TO TAKE EDUCATION, FOR EXAMPLE, SIMPLY BY SAYING "OH, WE'RE LEAVING THESE PUBLIC SCHOOLS."

THESE ARE OUR SCHOOLS.

THESE ARE THE INSTITUTIONS THAT WE HAVE INVESTED IN AND WE HAVE VESTED INTEREST IN.

WE CAN'T PLAY THIS LITTLE GAME OF CHARTER SCHOOLS AND -- BORN OR SEGREGATED WHITE ACADEMIES AND ALL THIS OTHER STUFF.

NO, THE VAST MAJORITY UNDERSTAND THAT THE PUBLIC DESERVES TO BE THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT IS A 21st CENTURY CREATION.

THIS WAS THE DEMAND OF FORMALLY ENSLAVED AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO GAVE BIRTH TO THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM IMMEDIATELY AFTER EMANCIPATION BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WAS ROLE FOR GOVERNMENT TO BE RESPONSIVE TO THE DEMAND AND NEEDS OF AFRICAN AMERICANS.

>> ALRIGHT, WE HAVE ANOTHER QUESTIONS FROM OUR AUDIENCE, DIANA.

>> THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION TO FOLLOW THAT UP.

CAN YOU GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES OF WHAT THOSE OPPOSED TO TEACHING CRITICAL RACE THEORY DO NOT WANT TO BE TAUGHT TO CHILDREN AT VARIOUS EDUCATION LEVELS?

>> START WITH YOU MR. ELLISON.

>> WELL YES, OUR PARENTS HAVE RIGHT TO DECIDE HOW THEIR CHILDREN ARE EDUCATED.

I DISAGREE WITH DR. JEFFERIES THAT BELIEVES THE GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, IS A SOCIALISTIC, COMMUNIST CONCEPT THAT BELIEVES GOVERNMENT SHOULD CONTROL THE MINDS OF THEIR CITIZENS AND EDUCATE THEM.

THAT'S A SYSTEM IN COMMUNIST CHINA AND THE USSR BUT AGAIN, IN 1954 WHEN THE SOVIET UNION DECIDE TO INFILTRATE THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT THEY GAVE INSTRUCTIONS THAT THEY SHOULD MAKE THE BLACK COMMUNITY A REPLICA OF THE COMMUNIST BLOCK.

AND THEY'VE DONE VERY VERY WELL.

YOU HAVE ONE PARTY-RULE DICTATOR WORSHIP, GOVERNMENT CONTROL OF EDUCATION AND HEALTHCARE AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

AND AFTER 200 YEARS OF IT, THEY WANT MORE.

IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW -- IT'S STOCKHOLM SYNDROME.

THE MORE THEY BEAT YOU THE MORE YOU LIKE IT.

AND WHEN THEY OFFER YOU YOUR FREEDOM YOU RUN BACK ON THE PLANTATION AGAIN.

I BELIEVE IN FREEDOM.

THAT MEANS FREEDOM TO EDUCATE MY CHILDREN THE WAY I WANT TO EDUCATE THEM, WHICH IS WHAT I DO.

I PAY FOR MY CHILDREN'S EDUCATION OUT OF MY POCKET.

BUT ANYONE THAT DOESN'T UNDERSTAND, THAT TO PUT THE GOVERNMENT -- AND THE GOVERNMENT WHICH YOU CLAIM IS RACIST -- OVER THE EDUCATION OF YOUR CHILDREN AND THEN BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN BEG THAT RACIST GOVERNMENT TO EDUCATE YOUR BLACK CHILDREN CORRECTLY.

SOMETHING THEY HAVE NEVER, EVER DONE.

EVER.

THEY SAY THEY HATE YOU.

AND YOU GIVE YOUR CHILDREN TO IT.

THEY SAY THEY DESPISE YOU, AND YOU BEG THEM TO TAKE THEIR CHILDREN.

THEY TELL YOU THAT THEY WILL DESTROY YOU.

YOU SAY PLEASE TAKE MY CHILDREN.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST BE EXPEDITIOUS AND BLOW YOUR OWN DAMN BRAINS OUT.

>> HASAN JEFFERIES -- WE'LL TALK ABOUT EDUCATION, HOW SHOULD RACE BE TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS TODAY?

I USE THE EXAMPLE OF THE TULSA RACE MASSACRE.

I WAS 52 YEARS OLD I HAD NO IDEA IT HAPPENED, UNTIL I SAW THE HBO SERIES "WATCHMEN" IT WAS STUNNING.

I NEVER LEARNED ABOUT THAT IN SCHOOL AND I WASN'T ALONE.

AFRICAN AMERICAN COLLEAGUES OF MINE SAID THEY WERE VERY FAMILIAR WITH IT THROUGH THEIR FAMILIES AND THEIR COLLEAGUES AND THEIR COMMUNITY.

OBVIOUSLY, THAT WAS ONE SHORTCOMING IN OUR EDUCATION.

HOW SHOULD RACE BE TAUGHT IN OUR SCHOOLS AND CAN TO MR.ELLISON'S POINT, CAN WE TRUST THE CURRENT THE SYSTEM TO DO IT CORRECTLY?

>> WELL RACE SHOULD BE TAUGHT OPENLY AND HONESTLY.

RACE AND RACISM SHOULD BE TAUGHT OPENLY AND HONESTLY IN SCHOOLS.

WHETHER WE ARE IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS OR WHETHER WE ARE IN INDEPENDENT PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

THERE IS NO HIDING FROM THE REALITY THAT RACE AND RACISM HAS SHAPED THE CONTOURS OF AMERICAN LIFE AND BLACK LIFE IN THE PAST AND THE PRESENT AND THAT IT CONTINUES TO SHAPE THE CONTOURS OF AFRICAN AMERICAN LIFE AND AMERICAN LIFE IN THE PRESENT.

SO WE HAVE TO CONFRONT IT.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE AS AMERICANS ACTUALLY HATE HISTORY.

WHAT WE LOVE AS MY FRIEND REGGIE GIBSON, OUT OF BOSTON SAYS, WE ACTUALLY LOVE NOSTALGIA.

HATE HISTORY, BUT LOVE NOSTALGIA.

WE LOVE STORIES ABOUT THE PAST THAT MAKE US FEEL COMFORTABLE IN THE PRESENT.

AND THAT NOT ONLY IS SORT OF THE MISCONCEPTION ROOTED SORT OF AROUND THE AMERICAN DREAM AND THE FANTASY OF PILGRIM'S LANDING ON PLYMOUTH ROCK AND ALL THIS OTHER STUFF AND THANKSGIVING.

BUT IT'S ALSO -- AND I GOT TO DISAGREE WITH YOU MR. ELLISON ON THIS, IT'S ALSO THIS MYTH OF SOMEHOW BLACK FOLK HAVE BEEN UNDER THE HEEL OF WHITE FOLK AND HAVE BEEN SUFFERING AND RUNNING BACK TO PLANTATIONS 'CAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER.

THE HISTORY OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN FREEDOM STRUGGLE, IT THE HISTORY OF NOT ONLY MAKING STRIDES FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS TO THRIVE AND STRIVE IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT WAS WORKING AGAINST THEM THROUGH RACIAL TERROR AND PURPOSEFUL DISCRIMINATION.

BUT IN THAT PROCESS ALSO TRANSFORMING THIS NATION ITSELF.

YOU KNOW THERE WAS A MOMENT IN TIME PERHAPS WHEN WE COULD HAVE RETURNED BACK TO THE MOTHERLAND BUT THAT NEVER ACTUALLY OCCURRED.

WHETHER WE WERE TALKING ABOUT LIBERIA OR WE WERE TALKING MARCUS DARBY, THE HARSH REALITY IS WE HAVE AN INVESTMENT HERE -- AND I THINK YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE HAVE A COMMUNITY RESPONSIBILITY AND A COMMUNITY OF BLACK FOLK HAS ALWAYS BEEN WHAT UPHELD BLACK PEOPLE TOGETHER.

THAT HAVE NOT FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED.

THE SHAPE AND FIGURE OF IT MAY LOOK A LITTLE DIFFERENT BUT IT IS STILL THERE.

I THINK I HAVE A LITTLE MORE FAITH IN BLACK FOLK, BROTHER ELLISON, THAN YOU NECESSARILY DO AT THE SAME TIME.

>> YOU THE ONE THAT WANT TO -- OFF THE GOVERNMENT, NOT ME.

I THINK BLACK FOLKS CAN HANDLE IT.

I AM TELLING YOU WE NEED OUR OWN SCHOOLS, YOU SAID WE NEED THE GOVERNMENT TO DO IT.

I SAID WE NEED TO DEFEND OURSELVES.

YOU WANT THE POLICE THAT HAVE BEEN BEATING THE HELL OUT OF US TO DO IT.

I SAID WE NEED TO SECURE OUR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS.

YOU WANT THE DOPE ADDICTS AND THE DOPE PUSHERS TO SECURE IT.

I AM TELLING YOU I HAVE MORE FAITH THAN YOU DO.

YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO TAKE CARE OF US.

I AM TELLING YOU WE CAN TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES.

SO LET'S -- >> THAT IS -- >> I AM THE ONE SAYING I DON'T NEED A GUN PERMIT.

I AM THE ONE SAYING BLACK PEOPLE, BEFORE WE SO CALL INTEGRATED WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND TOLD THEM TO TAKE OVER OUR LIVES THAT WE WERE MOVING FASTER AHEAD ECONOMICALLY THAN WHITE AMERICA.

WE FLAT LINED ECONOMICALLY SINCE 1968.

WE INTEGRATED BASEBALL AND FOOTBALL AND BASKETBALL.

WE HAD JACKIE ROBISON AND MUHAMMAD ALI, WE HAD THE HARLEM RENIASSIANCE.

MAN, TUSKEGEE -- ACCORDING TO FORBES MAGAZINE TUSKEGEE INSTITUTE HAD CREATED THREE TIMES MORE MILLIONAIRES THAN HARVARD, YALE AND PRINCETON COMBINED.

AFTER WE INTEGRATED THE WHOLE COMMUNITY WENT DOWNHILL.

SO BLACK PEOPLE KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING UNTIL A BUNCH OF INTEGRATION MINDED NEGROS WANTED TO GET TOGETHER WITH THE WHITE COMMUNITY AND SAY THAT OUR INSTITUTIONS AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH.

WE NEED YOU TO LEAD US AND THEY LED US STRAIGHT TO HELL.

SO NO, I HAVE FAITH IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

I THINK YOU'RE THE ONE THAT'S LACKING FAITH.

>> I'LL GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO RESPOND AND THEN WE'LL MOVE ONTO SOMETHING ELSE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MIKE.

I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND.

WE CAN'T CONFUSE THE BROAD SPECTRUM OF ACTIVITIES AND APPROACHES AND STRATEGIES TO CHANGE -- THAT HAVE MORE HISTORICALLY DEFINED THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

SO ON ONE END YOU CERTAINLY HAVE HAD INTEGRATION.

LET'S TALK ABOUT BOOKER T. WASHINGTON IF YOU WANT TOUT BOOKER T. WASHINGTON.

>> TUSKEGEE WAS A BLACK SCHOOL, MAN.

>> I WENT TO BLACK COLLEGE, I WENT TO MOREHOUSE COLLEGE.

I UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS.

>> SO YOU KNOW TUSKEGEE WAS A BLACK SCHOOL.

>> SO WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND BROTHER ELLISON, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE THOSE WHO WANT TO TOUT, WHO AT A PARTICULAR ACCOMMODATION AND APPROACH TO CHANGE.

THAT'S FINE, I UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT LET'S NOT CONFUSE THOSE WITH PEOPLE LIKE CARMICHAEL COMING OUT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND THE BLACK POWER ERA, WHO DEMANDED BLACK INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL.

WHO DEMANDED CONTROL OF SCHOOLS IN BLACK IN COMMUNITIES.

>> THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU'RE ADVOCATING -- [ TALKING OVER EACH OTHER ] >> HOLD ON, BROTHER ELLISON.

>> YOU'RE ADVOCATING GOVERNMENT CONTROL.

>> HOLD ON.

>> HOLD ON.

>> LET'S -- >> I APPRECIATE THAT.

WE'RE ON ZOOM, WE CAN'T SPEAK OVER EACH OTHER, BROTHER ELLISON.

>> YEAH, YEAH, UH-HUH.

>> SO WHAT I AM SAYING IS WE LOOK THIS QUESTION -- YOU KNOW POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES LIKE TO TALK ABOUT LOCAL CONTROL, UNTIL IT COMES TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

BRING THE RESOURCES.

WE STILL LIVE IN A RIGIDLY SEGREGATED -- HEY YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT SEGREGATION, WE STILL LIVE IN A RIGIDLY SEGREGATED SOCIETY AND YOU'RE RIGHT, THERE WERE REAL FLAWS WITH BROWN.

BECAUSE IT DIDN'T DEAL WITH THE DEFACTO SEGREGATION IN URBAN COMMUNITIES.

SO THERE ARE ISSUES THERE I THINK WE CAN AGREE ON.

BUT LET'S NOT PLAY THE SILLY GAME OF SAYING, OH IF YOU WANT TO HOLD GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT IT HAS DONE IN THE PAST AND RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OBLIGATIONS THAT IT HAS TO IT'S CITIZENS, THAT SOMEHOW THAT MEANS YOU DON'T HAVE A LEGITIMATE CRITIQUE.

AND YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLICE, LET'S TALK ABOUT POLICE.

BECAUSE IT WAS POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES WHO LOST THEIR MINDS ON THIS ISSUE OF DEFUND THE POLICE.

ALL WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THERE IS HOLDING THE POLICE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE ACTIONS THAT THEY'RE SUPPOSE TO BE RESPONSIBLE TO ALL CITIZENS.

TO PROTECT AND SERVE.

I DON'T KNOW WHEN THAT MOTTO -- I AM IN NEW YORK CITY, RIGHT?

COURTESY, PROFESSIONALISM AND RESPECT.

"CPR."

IF THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE SAYING YOU ARE ABOUT THEN ALL BLACK FOLK ARE SAYING YOU NEED TO HOLD YOURSELF TO THAT STANDARD ITSELF.

DO WE NEED TO SHRINK POLICE AND POLICE DEPARTMENTS?

DEFUND?

ABSOLUTELY.

BUT WHEN THAT WAS BROUGHT UP AS AN ISSUE SUDDENLY POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES FORGOT WHAT IT MEANT TO DEFUND AND REALLOCATE RESOURCES.

>> LET'S TAKE A BREATH HERE.

MR. ELLISON, I WANT TO DIG A LITTLE DEEPER INTO YOUR CONTENTION THAT IT SEEMS LIKE, CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, THAT YOU ARE IN FAVOR INCREASED SEGREGATION.

THAT YOU DO NOT THE WHITE SYSTEM TO CHANGE.

SO, YOU ARE ADVOCATING THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS, OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR TAKE MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS AND DEVELOP THEIR OWN SYSTEMS, THEIR OWN SCHOOLS, THEIR OWN INDIVIDUALS PROTECTIONS TO FORCE CHANGE.

HOW DOES THAT HELP HEAL THE RACIAL DIVIDE IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT I AM ADVOCATING AT ALL.

I AM ADVOCATING THAT BLACK PEOPLE BE ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOLS THEY WANT TO GO TO.

WHETHER THEY'RE WHITE, WHETHER THEY'RE BLACK, WHETHER THEY'RE JEWISH.

I HAVE A DAUGHTER RIGHT NOW THAT GOES TO A CHRISTIAN ACADEMY THAT IS ABOUT 90% WHITE.

BECAUSE I AM CHRISTIAN.

I DON'T SEE COLOR.

WE NEED -- YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

WE SEE NOTHING BUT COLOR.

WE HAVE GONE INTO THIS WORLD AND WE WANT TO TELL OUR CHILDREN THAT EVEYRTHING THAT'S WRONG WITH THEM HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THEY'RE BLACK AS OPPOSED TO HOW THEY REACT TO SOCIETY, HOW THEY HANDLE THEMSELVES, HOW THEY -- ARE THEY GETTING A GOOD EDUCATION.

NO.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT HARVARD DID A STUDY THAT SAID NOW THAN IT WAS BROWN VS. BOARD OF EDUCATION.

THESE ARE THE FACTS.

EVERYTHING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT SAID THEY WANTED TO DO, THEY FAILED.

NEVERTHELESS, THEY DOUBLED DOWN.

THEY CREATED A DYSTOPIA WHERE BEFORE THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, 70% OF CHILDREN WERE BORN TO TWO PARENT FAMILIES.

BORN TO TWO PARENT FAMILIES.

NOW, 70% HAVE BEEN BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK.

WE DIDN'T HAVE -- WE HAVE TEN TIMES MORE MEN IN PRISON.

DISFUNCTIONAL.

WE WERE EDUCATING OUR CHILDREN BEFORE THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

NOW WE'RE NOT.

WE'RE SAYING THAT GOVERNMENT WILL NEVER DO WHAT THE GOVERNMENT -- GOVERNMENT HAS ALWAYS BEEN OUR OPPRESSOR.

IT HASN'T BEEN.

I CAN DEAL WITH THE INDIVIDUAL GUY.

THE INDIVIDUAL RACIST THAT'S AROUND ME.

I CAN'T DEAL WITH 15-20 STATE TROOPERS.

I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE FBI.

SO, IF WE SHRINK GOVERNMENT AND SAY PEOPLE, HERE'S YOUR FREEDOM.

I DON'T KNOW WHY PEOPLE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A CHILD NOT BEING EDUCATED AT A SCHOOL IN BALTIMORE.

AND THERE'S A CHARTER OR PRIVATE SCHOOL DOWN THE WAY LIKE THEY HAVE IN WASHINGTON D.C. AND NEW ORLEANS.

AND THESE CHILDREN GO AND GET A GOOD EDUCATION.

I'LL TELL YOU WHY.

BECAUSE OF BLACK PEOPLE EVER BECOME EDUCATED, THE LIBERALS WILL LOSE COMPLETE CONTROL OVER THEM.

THEY HAVE TO KEEP THEM UNEDUCATED, UNDER CONTORL, AND IN FEAR.

AND THIS IS WHY EVEN THOUGH IT COSTS MAYBE THREE TIMES MORE FOR THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM TO EDUCATE A BLACK CHILD, BADLY.

AND EVEN THOUGH CHARTER SCHOOLS AND VOUCHERS HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY STRONGLY ADVOCATED AND HAVE DONE A VERY GOOD JOB IN D.C. AND NEW ORLEANS, AND IN OTHER BLACK SCHOOLS ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY, THE LEFT AND DEMOCRATS ARE COMPLETELY AGAINST THEM.

BECAUSE IF THEY EVER LOSE 90% OF THE BLACK VOTE, THEY'RE DEAD.

IN THE WATER.

AND THEY KNOW IT.

>> HASAN JEFFRIES, I WANT YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS.

AND WE'LL TRY TO GET BACK TO CRITICAL RACE THEORY TENETS IN A MOMENT.

BUT, THIS ARGUMENT THAT DEMOCRATS, IN PARTICULAR WHITE DEMOCRATS, ARE USING RACE, USING AFRICAN-AMERICAN VOTERS TO -- FOR POLITICAL GAIN.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> I SAY IF WE WANT TO TALK MANIFISTATION OR CONFIGURATION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF COURSE HAS A LONG HISTORY OF SEGREGATIONIST POLITICS.

THIS WAS THE PARTY OF SECESSION.

THIS WAS THE PARTY OF THE DIXIECRATS.

BUT, THEN THERE'S A FUNDAMENTAL TURN WHEN THE DEMOMCRATIC WITH ITS SOLID BASE IN THE NORTHEAST AND IN THE MIDWEST EMBRACED THE CIVIL RIGHTS PLATFORM UNDER JOHN F. KENNEDY AND MORE THOROUGHLY UNDER LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON.

AND THEN, AS A RESULT OF THAT, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FLIPPED THE SCRIPT IF YOU WILL AND WELCOMED INTO ITS FOLD THOSE WHITE AMERICANS IN THE SOUTH.

WHETHER THEY WERE IN RURAL COMMUNITIES OR URBAN CENTERS AND WHITE AMERICANS IN SUBURBS THAT WERE MOST ANIMATED BY CALLS FOR ORDER.

AND SO WHAT WE SEE FROM RICHARD NIXON, TO RONALD REAGAN, TO DONALD TRUMP IS POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES RALLYING AROUND WHICH WE KNOW IS THE MOST POWERFUL POLITCAL ORGANIZING TOOL IN AMERICA.

AND SO, I TEND TO TAKE AFRICAN-AMERICANS SERIOUSLY AS POLITICAL THINKERS.

THEY ARE SURVEYING THE LAND.

LOOKING AT THE POLITICAL OFFERS THEM THE BEST OPPORTUNITIES TO CREATE CHANGE THROUGH THE EXISTING POLITICAL STRUCTURE.

AND CLEARLY THAT AIN'T THE REPUBLICANS RIGHT NOW.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THE DEMOCRATS ARE PERFECT.

IT SIMPLY MEANS THE OPTIONS AREN'T THAT GREAT.

>> I WANT TO GET TO THIS ISSUE OF COLOR BLINDNESS MR. ELLISON.

YOU BROUGHT IT UP A FEW MOMENTS AGO.

CRT SUPPORTERS SAY THAT THE NEUTRAL STANDARD ONLY ADDRESSES THE MOST SERIOUS CASES OF RACISM.

NOT THE MORE SUBTLE PRACTICES THAT PREVENT EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

THAT IF YOU SAY COLOR BLIND, THE MARCH ON CHARLOTTESVILLE AND THINGS LIKE THAT, LYNCHING, AND OVERT RACISM IS OBVIOUS.

BUT, THE SUBTLE THINGS, THEY FLY UNDER THE RADAR.

THEY DON'T GET NOTICED.

WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

WHAT'S IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT ARGUMENT?

>> WELL FOR ONE, I'D LIKE TO RESPOND TO WHAT DR. JEFFRIES SAID.

AFTER SEEING WHAT THE DEMOCRAT PARTY AND THOSE LIBERALS DID TO BLACK PEOPLE, THE WHITE CONSERVATIVES WERE VERY SMART TO CUT THEM LOOSE AND NOT JOIN THE SUICIDAL PACT.

YEAH, THEY WERE LOOKING AHEAD.

THEY WERE SEEING WHAT THEY LIBERALS WERE GOING TO DO.

THEY SAW WHAT THEY DID TO BLACK PEOPLE.

THEY SAY, "YEAH, WE WERE RIGHT" TO NOT HAVE ANY PARTS OF IT.

BUT, WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO BEING COLOR BLIND; I'M A BLACK MAN.

I'M PROUD OF BEING A BLACK MAN.

TO NOT LOOK AT ME AND SAY THAT I'M BLACK IS AN INSULT TO ME.

IT TELLS YOU MY STORY.

I'M NOT GONNA ASK THE GOVERNMENT OR ANY THIRD PARTY TO FIGHT MY BATTLES.

IF A PERSON IS A RACIST, I DON'T WANT TO WORK FOR THEM.

LET ME KNOW PLEASE.

IF A PERSON IS A RACIST AND HAS A RESTAURANT, I DON'T WANT TO GIVE THEM MY MONEY AND I DON'T WANT TO EAT HIS FOOD.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW.

AS FAR AS MICROAGGRESIONS ARE CONCERNED, I DON'T CARE.

MY JOB IS TO LOVE MYSELF.

I CAN'T CONTROL WHAT YOU DO.

YOU'D DRIVE YOURSELF CRAZY TRYING TO CONTROL OTHER PEOPLE.

AS A CHRISTIAN, JESUS ALWAYS TOLD US LOOK AT YOURSELF.

NEIGHBOR'S EYE.

WORRY ABOUT THE BEAM IN YOUR OWN.

EVERYTHING THAT I DO I GO BACK TO ME.

HE HATES ME.

I LOVE HIM.

HE LIES ON ME.

TELL THE TRUTH ON HIM.

HE'S MY ENEMY.

FEED HIM.

THAT'S HOW I BRING YOU TO ME.

>> BUT, THERE ARE THINGS -- >> HE SAID I'D BE LIFTED UP -- >> BUT, THERE ARE THINGS IN YOUR LIFE YOU CANNOT CONTROL.

>> SO, THAT'S WHAT I DO.

I'M NOT CONCERNED ABOUT -- >> BUT, THERE ARE THINGS IN YOUR LIFE YOU CANNOT CONTROL.

YOU GET PULLED OVER BY A POLICE OFFICER.

AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALES ARE TWO AND A HALF TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE KILLED BY A POLICE OFFICER THAN WHITE AMERICANS.

>> YES, THERE'S A REASON THAT -- >> AND THAT'S SOMETHING YOU DON'T HAVE THE CHOICE TO SAY I'M NOT GONNA EAT AT YOUR RESTAURANT, OR I'M NOT GONNA GET PULLED OVER BY THIS OFFICER.

ISN'T THERE A SYSTEMIC ROLE THERE THAT HAS TO BE OVERCOME?

THE STATS ARE THERE.

>> I BELIEVE THAT IF WHEN YOU START DEALING WITH THE POLICE, IT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT CONCEPT.

THAT'S WHY I'M ALWAYS ARMED.

IF A POLICE OFFICER TRIES TO AND WANTS TO -- I'VE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH A POLICE OFFICER IN MY LIFE.

I'M 58 YEARS OLD.

I'M RESPECTFUL.

HE RESPECTS ME.

I TREAT HIM WITH RESPECT.

I BELIEVE THERE'S A HUMAN ELEMENT THAT DEALS WITH ANY SITUATION.

AND AGAIN, BECAUSE OF THAT, I'M PULLED OVER.

I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE POLICE AT ALL.

NOW AGAIN, IF I EVER MEET THAT ONE THAT THINKS HE'S GOING TO GET HIS GOOD TIME BY BEATING ON ME OR ANYBODY THAT I CARE ABOUT, IT'S THAT OLD SAYING, I'D RATHER BE TRIED BY 12 THAN GET CARRIED BY SIX.

I'LL DEAL WITH IT.

>> HASAN, TO THIS ISSUE OF COLOR BLINDNESS, FOLKS WHO ARE CRITICAL OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY, THEY USE THE QUOTE FROM MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.

THEY WANT TO BE JUDGED BY THE CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTER RATHER THAN THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT IN TODAY'S SOCIETY?

>> THE ONLY THING THAT'S WRONG WITH THAT IN TODAY'S SOCIETY IS WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE INTERPRETATION FOR WHE DR. KING SAID IT IN 1963 DURING THE MARCH ON WASHINGTON.

IS THAT HE WASN'T TALKING ABOUT THE MOMENT.

THAT WAS AN ASPIRATION THAT HE WAS ARTICULATING.

HE SAID WE GOT TO GET THERE.

WE HAVE TO GET TO THE MOMENT WHERE MY CHILDREN ARE JUDGED BY THE CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTER RATHER THAN BY THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN.

WHETHER THAT BE THEM BEING JUDGED BY INDIVIDUALS OR THAT BEING, THEM BEING JUDGED BY TEACHERS, AND THE LIKE.

HE SAID WE GOT TO GET THERE.

BUT, THE ONLY WAY WE CAN GET THERE, AND TOO OFTEN LOCAL CONSERVATIVES DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT JUDGING CONTENT AND CHARACTER, IS THAT THE ONLY WAY WE CAN GET THERE IS FOR US TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE REAL DIFFERENCES THAT EXIST.

SEE, WHEN YOU -- WE CAN'T FALL INTO THE COLOR BLIND TRAP.

NOW, I RESPECT WHAT MR. ELLISON IS SAYING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL ACTION, AND BEHAVIOR, AND RESPONSIBILITY, AND YOU GOTTA WORK HARD.

HE WORKED HARD NO DOUBT.

HIS FAMILY WORKED HARD NO DOUBT.

I WORKED HARD NO DOUBT.

MY FAMILY HAS WORKED HARD NO DOUBT.

BUT, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THOSE WHO HAVE WORKED EQUALLY AS HARD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVE AS MUCH.

THE QUESTION THEN BECOMES WHY.

WHY IS IT THAT WE KNOW THE STATISTICS IN TERMS OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS BEING BORN IN PARTICULAR COMMUNITIES AND CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOODS THAT WE CAN ALMOST PREDICT THEIR FUTURE WITH CERTAINTY.

WHILE JUST ACROSS THE HIGHWAY AND OTHER NEIGHBORHOODS AND OTHER COMMUNITIES, WE CAN PREDICT WITH ALMOST SCIENTIFIC CERTAINTY A BETTER OUTCOME.

THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INDIVIDUALS NOT WORKING HARD AND NOT STRIVING HARD.

SO, WHEN WE PRETEND, WHEN WE FALL INTO THE COLOR BLIND TRAP AND PRETEND THERE'S A VOTE, WE JUST ACKNOWLEDGE THAT RACE IS -- THAT RACE ISN'T REAL, BUT RACISM IS.

WHEN WE FALL INTO THE COLOR BLIND TRAP AND DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE THE WAY THAT RACE AND RACISM STILL IMPACTS OUTCOME, THEN YOU'RE DOING TWO THINGS.

ONE, YOU'RE ACTUALLY SETTING UP PEOPLE FOR FAILURE.

HAVE A RACE, MIKE, YOU CAN'T HAVE A 100-YARD RACE AND PUT HURDLES IN FRONT OF PEOPLE AND THEN SAY GO RUN AND NOT TELL THEM THE HURDLES ARE THERE.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY CAN'T GO OVER THEM.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY CAN'T JUMP THEM.

BUT, IT SURE DOES HELP IF THEY KNOW THAT THEY ARE THERE.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

WHEN WE PRETEND AS THOUGH RACE ISN'T REAL, WE'RE SAYING GO FORTH AND THERE ARE NO OBSTACLES WHEN WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE.

AND ALSO LASTLY, WHEN YOU SAY I HAVE NO PROBLEM WHEN PEOPLE ACKNOWLEDGE AND SEE ME AS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

THAT TO ME IS IMPORTANT.

THE INSULT IS NOT THAT YOU SEE ME AS A BLACK MAN.

THE INSULT IS THAT YOU PRETEND THAT YOU DON'T.

BECAUSE MY EXPERIENCE AS A BLACK MAN BORN IN BROOKLYN, NEW YORK AND GOING TO SCHOOL IN THE SOUTH.

MY PARENTS EXPERIENCE AS BLACK PEOPLE IN THE NORTHEAST.

MY GRANDPARENTS EXPERIENCES AS BLACK FOLK IN THE SOUTH.

MY GREAT-GREAT GRANDPARENTS EXPERIENCES AS ENSLAVED FOLK IN GEORGIA AND VIRGINIA FUNDAMENTALLY HAVE SHAPED WHO I AM.

SO, DON'T PRETEND YOU DON'T SEE ME, BECAUSE THEN YOU DON'T SEE MY HISTORY AND WHO I AM.

>> LET'S GET TO SOME QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE.

DIANA?

>> SURE.

WHY HAS CRITICAL RACE THEORY BECOME SUCH A HOT BUTTON ISSUE WHEN ITS PURPOSE FOR THE PAST 40 PLUS YEARS HAS BEEN TO DISCUSS THE PRESENCE OF RACISM IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF CERTAIN INSTITUTIONS.

WHY WOULD LESS FACTS NOT BE A GOOD THING?

>> VINCE ELLISON, I'LL LET YOU TAKE THAT ONE.

>> WELL, IT STARTED AFTER REALLY AFTER THE GEORGE FLOYD RIOTS IN 2020.

AND BLACK LIVES MATTERS WAS INVOLVED IN THAT.

I THINK THAT FROM THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION, GENTLEMEN STARTED WRITING PIECES ON CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND HE STARTED CONNECTING IT WITH BLACK LIVES MATTER AND THEIR MISSION.

AND OF COURSE AS YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING WAS SO CONTROVERSIAL BACK THEN, THAT WHEN THEY CONNECTED BLACK LIVES MATTER AND THE GEORGE FLOYD THING TO IT, IT TURNED INTO SOMETHING VERY, VERY CONTROVERSIAL.

AND THEN BLACK LIVES MATTER STARTED THE BLACK LIVES MATTER IN SCHOOL THING AND A LOT OF PARENTS STARTED TO SAY HOLD IT.

I DON'T LIKE THIS JUST BECAUSE IT WAS GUILT BY ASSOCIATION IN A LOT OF WAYS.

BUT, WHEN THEY STARTED GOING TO THE SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS AND STARTED TALKING ABOUT IT, IT BLEW UP.

AND YOU HAVE SOME PARENTS THAT DON'T CARE ABOUT HOW THEIR CHILDREN ARE EDUCATED.

THAT'S A VERY SMALL MINORITY.

YOU HAVE SOME PARENTS THAT TAKE THEIR CHILDREN OUT OF PUBLIC EDUCATION, PUT THEM IN PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

THAT'S ANOTHER SMALL MINORITY.

THEN YOU HAVE THOSE IN THE MIDDLE THAT KIND OF WHAT TO TRUST PUBLIC EDUCATION TO EDUCATE THEIR CHILDREN.

AND WHEN THEY STARTED HEARING THAT CRT WAS GONNA TEACH THEIR CHILDREN TO HATE THEMSELVES AND SAY THAT SOME ARE RACISTS AND SOME ARE NOT AND DA-DA-DA; IT KIND OF BLEW UP.

SO YEAH, AND LIKE WHAT-WHAT-WHAT DR. JEFFRIES SAID, YEAH, THE HURDLES EXIST.

BUT, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT ASKING GOVERNMENT TO MOVE THE HURDLES.

I TEACH MY CHILDREN HOW TO JUMP OVER THEM.

MY FATHER TAUGHT ME HOW TO JUMP THE HURDLES.

HE SAID THEY'RE THERE.

THEY'RE NOT REMOVE THEM.

AND IF THEY TELL YOU THEY'RE GOING TO REMOVE THEM, THEY'RE LYING TO YOU.

THEY'RE PUT MORE OF THEM IN FRONT OF YOU.

I'M TEACHING YOU TO BE BETTER.

I'M TEACHING YOU TO JUMP OVER THEM.

AND IF A BRILLIANT MAN LIKE DR. JEFFRIES AND A FEW OTHER OF HIS BROTHERS START BLACK PRIVATE SCHOOLS, THEY'D TEACH THESE BLACK BOYS THE SAME THING.

INSTEAD OF LEAVING THEM AT THE MERCY OF A GOVERNMENT SYSTEM THAT FEARS THEM.

AND WILL TEACH THEM ALWAYS THAT THEY ARE BELOW THEM.

AS CRITICAL RACE THEORY KIND OF SAYS.

THEY GOT BLACK PEOPLE BELIEVING ARE INFERIOR TO WHITE PEOPLE.

NOW, IF IT SAYS THAT OR NOT, I >> PROFESSOR JEFFRIES -- >> THEY'RE TELLING BLACK PEOPLE THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE SUPERIOR, BLACK PEOPLE ARE INFERIOR, AND WHITE PEOPLE HAVE TO PULL THEMSELVES DOWN SO WE CAN CATCH UP WITH THEM.

THAT'S LUNACY.

>> PROFESSOR JEFFRIES, HOW SHOULD CRITICAL RACE THEORY -- SHOULD IT BE TAUGHT IN SCHOOL?

SHOULD IT BE TAUGHT TO ALL AGES?

WHY HAS THIS BECOME SUCH A HOT BUTTON ISSUE?

THAT'S THE TITLE OF OUR SESSION TODAY.

>> WELL, IF YOU'RE CHILD IS BEING TAUGHT CRITICAL RACE THEORY, CONGRATULATIONS BECAUSE THAT MEANS THEY'RE IN LAW SCHOOL.

[ LAUGHTER ] IT'S NOT BEING TAUGHT IN K-12 ANYWHERE.

BUT, WHAT SHOULD BE TAUGHT IN K-12 IS A SERIOUS HISTORY ON THE ROLE OF RACE AND RACISM IN AMERICAN SOCIETY IN AGE APPROPRIATE LEVELS.

IN AGE APPROPRIATE WAYS OF COURSE.

WE CAN'T IGNORE THAT.

WE CAN'T PRETEND AS THOUGH AMERICAN HISTORY DIDN'T HAPPEN.

THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN WRITER AND ESSAYIST JAMES BALDWIN SAID WE ARE OUR HISTORY.

AND IN ORDER FOR US TO UNDERSTAND WHO WE ARE, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT HISTORY, WE HAVE TO STUDY THAT HISTORY.

WE CAN'T PRETEND AS THOUGH THOSE ASPECTS OF THAT HISTORY THAT MAKE US UNCOMFORTABLE SOMEHOW WE CAN IGNORE BECAUSE THAT IS WHO WE ARE AS WELL.

AND WITH REGARD TO HOW THIS CAME ABOUT, MR. ELLISON IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, THIS WAS BORN -- THIS WAS A MANUFACTURED CRISIS BORN OUT POLITICAL -- POLITCALLY CONSERVATIVE THINK TANKS IN RESPONSE TO, LITERALLY, THE LARGEST PROTEST IN AMERICAN HISTORY FOLLOWING THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD IN MINNEAPOLIS BY POLICE IN MINNEAPOLIS.

20-30 MILLION PEOPLE TAKING TO THE STREETS IN JUNE OF 2020.

20-30 MILLION PEOPLE TAKING TO THE STREETS IN JULY OF 2020.

NOT ONLY DEMANDING JUSTICE FOR THE VICTIMS OF POLICE VIOLENCE, BUT ALSO DEMANDING AN END TO SYSTEMIC RACISM.

AND THIS IS WHERE POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES GOT SCARED.

BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY THAT YOU CAN RESPOND TO MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, NOT ONLY IN THE UNITED STATES, AROUND THE GLOBE, SAYING LOOK WE GOT A PROBLEM HERE AND WE NEED TO DEAL WITH THE WAY RACISM IS REPRODUCED IN OUR SYSTEMS AND STRUCTURES, THE ONLY WAY TO DEAL WITH THAT IS ACTUALLY TO CHANGE THE SYTEM'S CONSTRUCTION.

TO CHANGE THE WAY WE DO POLICING.

NOT JUST FIRING ONE OR TWO POLICE.

TO CHANGE THE WAY WE ALLOCATE RESOURCES TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

I'M WITH YOU THERE, BROTHER.

ELLISON, WE NEED A FUNDAMENTAL REALLOCATION OF THOSE RESOURCES.

BUT, YOU HAVE THOSE WHO BENEFIT FROM IT.

AND SAY NO-NO-NO.

THE ONLY REALLOCATING THAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS NOT SENDING MORE INTO COMMUNITIES THAT ARE UNDERRESOURCED, BUT BY PULLING THE RESOURCES OUT AND SENDING THEM INTO CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS, SENDING THEM INTO MAJORITY WHITE SCHOOLS THAT WILL BIRTH OUT OF THE SEGREGATIONIST PRIVATE EDUCATION MOVEMENT COMING OUT OF THE LATE 1960s AND EARLY 1970s.

>> AND SO IT IS A MANUFACTURED POLITICAL CRISIS, IT'S HYSTERIC, BECAUSE IT AINT BEING TAUGHT.

NOBODY'S TEACHING WHITE CHILDREN THAT THEY SHOULD FEEL SHAME, OR BLAME, OR FUNDAMENTALLY OPPRESSORS.

NO WHITE CHILD IN SCHOOL TODAY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY, NO WHITE CHILD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR JIM CROW, NO WHITE CHILD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FOOLISHNESS THAT WE SEE GOING ON IN AMERICA TODAY, BUT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR TOMORROW.

AND IT IS OUR RESPONSIBILTY AS EDUCATORS TO TELL THEM THE TRUTH ABOUT THE PAST SO THAT THEY CAN BE ADEQUATELY PREPARED TO ADDRESS THE FUTURE.

AND THE OTHER PONT IF I MAY, MIKE REAL QUICK, IS PART OF THE HYSTERIA IN TRYING TO APPEAL TO AFRICAN AMERICAN IS THE FALSE BELIEF THAT SOMEHOW TALKING AND TEACHING ABOUT RACE AND RACISM AND THE REAL WORLD OBSTACLES THAT HAD BEEN HISTORICALLY AND CONTINUE TO BE PLACED UPON AFRICAN AMERICANS IS SOMEHOW CONDITIONING BLACK FOLK AND YOUNG BLACK KIDS TO BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE INFERIOR.

THAT'S ABSURD, NOBODY'S TELLING BLACK PEOPLE THEY CAN'T ACHIEVE, BUT IT'S PLAYING IT'S PREPARING THEM FOR WHAT'S AHEAD OF THEM.

YOU KNOW THIS IS OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY, THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY GO BUCKEYES.

THAT'S LIKE SENDING A QUARTERBACK OUT AND SAYING GO ACHIEVE AND NOT TELLING HIM THEIRS A DEFENSE OUT THERE, THAT'S ABSURD.

YOU'RE SETTING THEM UP FOR DISASTER AND FAILURE.

THEY COULD BE THE MOST PREPARED IN THE WORLD, BUT UNLESS THEY KNOW THERE'S A FREE SAFETY OUT THERE AND SOME LINEBACKERS THEY CANNOT ACHIEVE, AND THAT'S WHAT WERE SAYING WE HAVE TO DO AND THAT'S WHY WE GOTTA HAVE THESE HONEST CONVERSATIONS.

>> SO MISTER ELSON LET ME FOLLOW UP PLEASE VINCE, LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION, HOW SHOULD RACE BE TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS?

IS IT BAD TO SAY, YOU KNOW ABRAHAM LINCOLN FREED THE SLAVES BUT HE ALSO THOUGHT THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS, OR AFRICAN FREED SLAVES SHOULD GO BACK TO AFRICA.

HE DIDN'T ALWAYS SUPPORT ABOLITION OF SLAVERY EARLY IN HIS CAREER.

SHOULDN'T WE BE TAUGHT ALL OF THAT SPECTRUM RATHER THAN HE WAS JUST THE GREAT EMANCIPATOR.

>> YES, TWO THINGS.

NUMBER ONE, THE REASON WHY A LOT OF MIDDLE CLASS AMERICA TURNED ON PUBLIC EDUCATION WHEN THEY SAW WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO WITH CRITICAL RACE THEORY, IS BECAUSE THEY SAW WHAT THEY HAD DONE TO BLACK CHILDREN.

THEY SAW THAT YOU HAD TAUGHT PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM WAS INVOLVED IN TEACHING BLACK CHILDREN AND FIFTY PERCENT OF THE BLACK BOYS THAT DROPPED OUT THAT THEY HAD TAUGHT MOST OF THESE YOUNG BLACK CHILDREN THAT THEY HATE THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEY KILLED EACH OTHER ON INDUSTRIAL LEVEL.

THEY SAW HOW THEY ACT IN THE STREETS, THEY SAW THE BLACK GHETTOS WHEN THEY GO INTO BALTIMORE AND DETROIT, AND THEY SAID THIS IS WHAT THEY'VE DONE TO THE PEOPLE THEY SAY THEY LOVE.

WE DON'T WANT THIIS HAPPENING TO OUR CHILDREN, AND IT MADE COMMON SENSE.

NOW WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO TEACHING RACE WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL BECAUSE AS WE SAW TEACHING HISTORY NOW WE UNDERSTAND THAT WE GO BACK OVER GEORGE WASHINGTON, WE GO BACK OVER THOMAS JEFFERSON, AND THERES SOME THINGS THAT PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT WE DON'T WANT THE CHILDREN TO KNOW.

WE DON'T WANT CHILDREN TO KNOW ABOUT SALLY HEMMINGS, MAYBE, WE DON'T WANT THEM TO KNOW ABOUT THOMAS JEFFERSONS HALF WHITE CHILDREN.

WE STOPPED GOING INTO THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMEN.

WE STOPPED GOING INTO SLAVERY.

THESE ARE THINGS WE CAN TALK ABOUT TOO.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT WHY BLACK MEN DIDN'T RISE UP AND DEFEND THEMSELVES AND FIGHT AND KILL THEIR MASTERS, SOME DID, FREDRICK DOUGLAS FOUGHT HIS MASTER AND BEAT HIM UP.

YOU HAVE OTHERS THAT FOUGHT AND KILLED THEIR MASTERS AND LEFT, BUT YOU HAVE NINETY-EIGHT, NINETY-NINE PERCENT THAT DID NOT.

WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT AND TALK ABOUT WHY DIDN'T THEY LEAVE?

WHY DIDN'T IN THE SOUTH WHEN ABOUT MAYBE HALF OF THE PEOPLE DOWN SOUTH WERE BLACK DURING THE CIVIL WAR.

WHY DIDN'T ALL THE SLAVES UPRISE KILL THEIR MASTERS AND GO JOIN THE UNION ARMY AS UPPOSED TO DIGGING DITCHES AND MAKING RAMPARTS FOR THEIR MASTERS TO KEEP SLAVERY GOING.

WHY WHEN THEY DID THE 1990 CENSUS WAS NINETY PERCENT OF BLACK PEOPLE STILL LIVING DOWN SOUTH WORKING ON THE PLANTATION WITH THEIR MASTERS?

WHY DID THEY LOVE THEIR MASTERS SO MUCH THAT THEY STILL REFUSE TO LEAVE THEM?

THAT'S THE QUESTION.

THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH NOW, THE STOCKHOLM SYNDROME THAT KEEPS US CONNECTED TO A SYSTEM THAT'S DETROYING US.

>> LET'S GET TO ANOTHER QUESTION FROM OUR AUDIENCE, GO AHEAD.

>> HERE'S A FOLLOW UP QUESTION TO A COUPLE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN SAID, "WHY WOULD WE NOT WANT TO TEACH ALL CHILDREN OUR HISTORY WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED THROUGH AN IMPARTIAL LENSE NOT THROUGHT HE RACIST LENSE THAT HAS DETERMINED PAST TEACHING?"

>> MISTER ELLISON BRIEFLY IF YOU COULD JUST STICK TO THAT QUESTION.

WHY NOT JUST THE LESSON PLAN, WHAT SHOULD JUST BE TAUGHT.

WHY NOT TEACH THEM THE WHOLE THING JEFFERSON AND WASHINGTON OWNED SLAVES, THE HISTORY OF RACE IS COMPLICATED, THE TULSA RACE MASSACRE.

>> WE'VE COME TO AN IMPASSE IN AMERICA WHERE THE CITIZENS DON'T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT ANYMORE, A LOT OF THEM JUST DON'T TRUST THEM TO TEACH IT.

THAT'S IT.

IN A NUTSHELL, THEY BELIEVE AFTER WATCHING THE PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM.

AFTER WATCHING THESE RIOTS, AFTER WATCHING WHAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID IN THE PRESS.

BLACK LIVES MATTER ABOUT TEARING DOWN THE FAMILY, ABOUT MARXISM ABOUT DESTRUCTION OF CAPITALISM, DESTRUCTION OF THE FAMILY.

THEY ARE SAYING THAT WE DON'T TRUST YOU TO TEACH OUR CHILDREN IMPARTIALLY ANY LONGER, AND THAT IS THEIR RIGHT.

A PARENT, A MOTHER THAT BIRTHED >> BUT HOW DO WE GAIN THE TRUST THEN?

HOW DO WE GAIN THE TRUST, WHAT SHOULD BE TAUGHT IN THE CLASSROOM TO GAIN THAT TRUST?

>> YOU DON'T GAIN IT!

IT'S DONE, IT'S OVER WITH.

>> PROFFESSOR JEFFRIES, WHAT DO YOU HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> WELL I WORK--I HAVE THE GREAT FORTUNE OF WORKING WITH TEACHERS NOT ONLY HERE IN CENTRAL OHIO BUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND I STILL HAVE FAITH IN OUR TEACHERS.

I STILL HAVE FAITH IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS, I KNOW THAT THEY WANT TO TEACH HISTORY HONESTLY, I KNOW THAT THEY WANT TO TEACH HISTORY ACCURATELY AS WELL AS EFFECTIVELY.

BUT I ALSO KNOW THAT THEY ARE AFRAID BECAUSE ETHEY ARE BEING TARGETED.

THERE'S THIS DISCONNECT WHEN WE LOOK AT POLLING, TEACHERS-- INDIVIDUAL TEACHER, PARENTS REALLY RESPECT AND APPRECIATE THERE INDIVIUAL TEACHERS, THEY SEE THE HARD WORK THAT THEY'RE DOING, BUT THEY GET TRAPPED IN THIS ECHO-CHAMBER OF SCHOOLS ARE BAD, PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE BAD AND ALL THIS OTHER STUFF.

AND SO WHILE THEY LIKE THEIR INDIVIDUAL TEACHERS THEY WILL HAVE SOME CONCERNS ABOUT THE BROADER PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM.

SO WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON, AND WE ALSO CAN'T PRETEND AS THOUGH--THESE WHITE--A SMALL GROUP OF WHITE FOLK, WHITE PARENTS WHO ARE CLAMMORING ABOUT NOT TEACHING CRITICAL RACE THEORY ARE DOING IT BECAUSE THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE EDUCATION THAT BLACK CHILDREN HAVE BEEN RECEIVING IN SCHOOL.

THAT'S A MYTH, I MEAN COME ON THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED, THIS IS A QUESTION OF PRESERVING-- THEY'RE NOT WORRIED ABOUT--- WHAT WHITE KIDS WHAT THEY MIGHT LEARN ABOUT BLACK CHILDREN AND THE BLACK EXPERIENCE.

THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT WHAT WHITE CHILDREN WILL LEARN ABOUT THE WHITE EXPERIENCE.

WHAT MEMAW WAS DOING BACK IN THE 1960's.

THAT'S THERE FUNDAMENTAL CONCERNS, SO WE GOT TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT AS WELL.

>> ALRIGHT LETS GET TO ANOTHER QUESTION FROM OUR AUDIENCE, DIANA?

>> YEAH, SO AS A TAKE AWAY WHAT CAN WE AS EDUCATORS AND IN PARTICULAR EDUCATORS OF COLOR DO IN SIMPLE STEPS MOVING FORWARD?

>> PROFFESSOR JEFFRIES, YOU TAKE THAT ONE.

>> OH, THIS IS CRITCAL.

EDUCATORS OF COLOR ESPECCIALLY HAVE TO TAKE THE LEAD.

MISTER ELLISON I AGREE WITH YOU HERE.

WE HAVE A LONG TRADITION OF AFRICAN AMERICAN EDUCATORS, AFRICAN AMERICAN TEACHERS, NOT ONLY AT THE COLLEGE LEVEL.

W. B. DUBOIS AND SO MANY OTHERS, BUT K THOUGH TWELVE WHO HAVE MADE EDUCATION COME ALIVE FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS AND THEY DID IT WITH SO FEW RESOURCES.

I DON'T WANT TO GO BACK TO JIM CROW.

I DON'T WANT TO GO BACK TO THAT ERA OF RACIAL SEGREGATION BY LAW BECAUSE WE WERE DOING THAT UNDER-RESOURCED.

AND YOU'RE RIGHT INTEGRATION--HAD REAL FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS BECAUSE WE DIDN'T INTEGRATE ON AN EQUAL BASIS AND EQUAL FOOTING.

IT WAS JUST SIMPLY MOVING BLACK CHILDREN INTO PREDOMINANTLY WHITE SPACES.

SO THERE IS A LEGITIMATE CRITIQUE THERE, BUT UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT CRITQUE IS.

SO IT IS NOW INCUMBENT UPON US AS WE ARE INCREASINGLY MOVING INTO POSITIONS OF DECISION MAKING WHERE WE CAN, BUT THOSE TEACHERS WHO ARE ON THE FRONT LINES TO REALLY MODEL AND LEAD THE WAYIN TERMS OF HOW TEACHING THIS HISTORY CAN BE DONE BOTH ACCURATELY AND EFFECTIVELY.

AND WE HAVE GREAT EXAMPLES OF THAT, YOU KNOW WE COULD LOOK AT THE PHILADELPHIA SCHOOL SYSTEM, RIGHT?

WHCH HAS INCORPORATED, NOW HOLD ON MR. ELLISON, WHICH HAS INCORPORATED TALKING HONESTLY AND SERIOUSLY ABOUT RACISM SYSTEMIC AND INDIVIDUAL THAT HAS SAID LOOK WERE GONNA TAKE SERIOUSLY NOT ONLY WHAT DOCTOR KING WAS TALKING ABOUT AND MALCOM X WAS TALLKING ABOUT AND FREDERICK DOUGLAS WAS TALKING ABOUT AND ELLA BAKER WAS TALKING, ALL SO THESE PEOPLE WOULD TAKE TO THE STREETS UNDER THE BANNER OF BLACK LIVES MATTER.

NOW WE LOOK AT THAT POLITICAL THAT, THAT'S TEACHING HATE OR SOME OTHER SILLINES, NO THAT'S DOING EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED TO BE DOING TALKING ABOUT THIS HISTORY TO ALL STUDENTS IN HONEST AND OPEN WAYS.

>> MR. ELLISON WHAT WOULD YOUR LESSON PLAN LOOK LIKE?

>> WELL AGAIN WHATPEOPLE HAVE SEEN IN AMERICA IS WHAT THE PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM HAS DONE TO BLACK CHILDREN IN INNER CITIES.

WE'VE SEEN FREDRICK DOUGLAS HIGH IN BALTIMORE AND MANY INNER CITY SCHOOLS AND HOW THEY'VE TURNED INTO MONSTER FACTORIES--I SEE THE PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM BECOMING A SYSTEM LIKE THE COLLEGE SYSTEM, WHERE YOU HAVE PRIVATE SCHOOLS AND RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS, A LITANY OF CHOICE.

WHICH IS FREEDOM FOR ALL AMERICANS.

WHERE IT'S NOT SIMPLY BASED ON COLOR, IT SHOULD BE BASED UPON TRUTH, AND SOMEPEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO LIKE SOME THINGS, SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WANT OTHER THINGS EXPANDED BUT PARENTS HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE THE EDUCATION OF THEIR CHILDREN.

THEY HAVE THE RIGHT, AND IT WILL MAKE THE PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM BETTER LIKE UPS AND FEDEX MAKE THE POSTAL SERVICE BETTER.

THE COMPETITION WILL BREED EXCELLENCE ON ALL LEVELS.

DON'T FEAR IT, THE PEOPLE THAT FEAR COMPETITION ARE THE LOSERS >> WE'VE HAD THE CHARTER SCHOOL SYSTEM FOR TWENTY YEARS AND THE RESULTS SHOW THAT THOSE SCHOOLS AREN'T DOING IT, WHEN YOU LOOK AT TEST RESULTS AND PLACEMENT, AND DROPOUT RATES AND THINGS LIKE THAT THIS IS NOT A NEW THING THESE CHARTER SCHOOLS-- THAT IS NOT MY EVIDENCE WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO D.C AND NEW ORLEANS.

NOW I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT BUT WHEN IT COMES TO D.C.AND TO NEW ORLEANS THEIR ELEVATION HAS RISEN REMARKABLY SINCE THEY STARTED PUTTING HERE THE CHARTER SCHOOLS HAVE NOT LIVED UP TO THE PROMISES AT LEAST OF TWENTY YEARS AGO.

>> AND HERE'S A GOOD THING, THEY WILL BE DISMANTLED AND YOU CAN GET OTHERS, BUT THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM REMAINS NO MATTER HOW BAD IT IS.

SO IF THE CHARTER SCHOLS ARE LEAVING THAT'S GOOD THAT'S CREATED DESTRUCTION, THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.

WE DON'T WANT A BAD CHARTER SCHOOL TO STAY THERE, BUT A BAD PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL SCHOOL STAY THERE IN PERPETUITY THERE ARE SOME THAT HAVEN'T PRODUCED A GOOD SCHOLAR IN THIRTY YEARS AND THEY WILL NOT CLOSE THEM BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT.

>> ALRIGHT WE JUST HAVE ABOUT THREE MINUTES LEFT, AND I WANT TO TRY TO WRAP UP THIS DISCUSSION AND TRY TO FIND SOME COMMON GROUND.

I THINK ALL OF US, YOU GUYS WHO DISAGREE ON A LOT OF THINGS REALLY WOULD LIKE TO SEE HEALING, A RACIAL HEALING IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE WE DON'T HAVE DISCRIMINATION WHERE WE DON'T HAVE RACISM.

THERE ARE RACES CAN COEXIST PEACFULLY AND IS NOT A FACTOR IT'S A UTOPIAN IDEAL, I KNOW MR. ELLISON HOW DO WE ACHIEVE THAT, IN YOUR MIND?

>> LOOK I GOT TO GO BACK TO MY RELIGION, I BELIEVE THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO LOVE EVERYBODY.

I CAN'T CONTROL IF EVERYBODY LOVES ME.

I DO KNOW THAT THERE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT ARE GOING TO TRY TO HARM ME.

THERE'S A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THEM, AND IT AINT GO NOTHING TO DO WITH COLOR.

BLACK PEOPLE, WHITE PEOPLE, ASIAN IT DOESN'T MATTER.

SOMEBODY IN THAT GROUP IS GOING TO BE A PSYCHOPATH AND WHEN I NEED TO DEFEND MYSELF THE POLICE ARE NOT GOING TO BE HERE AND I EVERYBODY.

I TREAT EVERYBODY WITH RESPECT, BUT I ARM MYSELF WITH KNOWLEDGE FOR THE WISE MAN AND A GUN FOR THE FOOL AND LOVE EVERYBODY AND WALK MY COUNTRY AS A FREE MAN AND I DON'T ASK PERMISSION IN MY OWN HOUSE.

THIS I KNOW MY WAY AROUND IT.

>> HASAN KWAME JEFFRIES, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC THESE CONVERSATIONS, THESE DEBATES WILL HELP IN THE LOGNTERM PROCESS OF HEALING THE DIVIDE?

>> WELL I'M NOT PARTICULARLY OPTIMISTIC I MUST ADMIT BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT SOMETIMES AND TOO OFTEN IN THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT WE HAVE SOME FOLK WHO ARE DEALING WITH FACTS AND OTHER FOLKS THAT ARE DEALING WITH PROPAGANDA.

AND SO UNLESS WE CAN DEAL WITH AN AGREED UPON SET OF FACTS THAT DETERMINE THE REALITY IN WHICH WE ARE LIVING THEN I'M CONCERNED THAT EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE A LEGITIMATE DISCOURSE AND DISAGREEMENT HERE THAT THERE WILL BE THOSE WHO TAKE AND ONLY HEAR ONE PARTICULAR SIDE, BUT I AM HOPEFUL BECAUSE THE LONG PARTICULARLY AMONG AFRICAN AMERICAN EDUCATORS AND AFRICAN PUSHING THE ENVELOPE BENDING THAT AWKWARD IMMORAL UNIVERSE TOWARDS JUSTICE.

AND BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT HISTORY EXISTS BECAUSE KNOW THAT IT WILL CONTINUE ON INTO THE FUTURE.

SO BECAUSE I KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE COMMITTED TEACHING HISTORY HONESTLY AND EFFECTIVELY BECAUSE I KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS IN GENERAL ARE PRESENT IN AN HONEST AND TRUTHFUL WAY THEN I AM HOPEFUL THAT ENERGY WILL WIN OUT OVER HYSTERIA AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO THAT GOING FORWARD.

>> WELL THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE, THANK YOU TO OUR PANELISTS, OSU HISTORY PANELISTS, OSU HISTORY PROFESSOR HASAN KWAME JEFFRIES AND AUTHOR AND PROJECT TWENTY ONE BLACK LEADERSHIP NETWORK MEMBER VINCE ELLISON.

AND THANKS TO YOU FOR JOINING US, BE WELL.

♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪