O♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Crossley: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

I'M CALLIE CROSSLEY, HOST OF "UNDER THE RADAR 89.7."

TONIGHT: UNDERSTANDING CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND THE REWRITING OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

WE, LIKE YOU, ARE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC AND ARE TAKING PRECAUTIONS.

WE ARE WORKING WITH LIMITED STAFF AND OUR GUESTS ARE JOINING US REMOTELY.

IT'S A SUBJECT THAT HAS PROVOKED SHOUTING MATCHES, FORCED RESIGNATIONS AND RESTRICTIVE LOCAL LAWS.

CRITICAL RACE THEORY OR C.R.T., ASSERTS THAT RACISM AND RACIAL INEQUALITY ARE SYSTEMIC, EMBEDDED IN AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS.

UNTIL A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, C.R.T.

WAS CONFINED TO INTELLECTUAL LAW SCHOOL DISCUSSIONS.

BUT, NOW, CRITICAL RACE THEORY IS AT THE CENTER OF AN OVERHEATED CURRICULUM DEBATE IN K-12 SCHOOL SYSTEMS.

HOW DID IT HAPPEN?

AND WHAT DOES C.R.T.

HAVE TO DO WITH TEACHING AND LEARNING ABOUT RACISM'S ROLE AND HISTORY IN AMERICA?

JOINING US REMOTELY: RENEE GRAHAM, ASSOCIATE EDITOR AND COLUMNIST FOR THE "BOSTON GLOBE'S" OP-ED PAGE; DR. MICHAEL JEFFRIES, DEAN OF ACADEMIC AFFAIRS AND PROFESSOR OF AMERICAN STUDIES AT WELLESLEY COLLEGE; PHILLIP MARTIN, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, GBH NEWS CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING; AND DEBORAH D. DOUGLAS, CO-EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF THE "EMANCIPATOR."

WELCOME TO YOU ALL.

RENEE I'MGOING TO START WITH YOU.

WE'VE SAID THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S TAUGHT IN K-12, HOWEVER, AS YOU SAY, THE PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS, ARE MAKING THE MOST NOISE ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

WHAT IS THIS ABOUT?

>> WELL, REALLY, AT THIS POINT YOU KNOW, THE TERM CRITICAL RACE THEORY HAS BECOME A CATCHALL PHRASE FOR THINGS THAT CONSERVES, WHITE CONSERVES DOM LIKE.

WHAT CRITICAL RACE THEORY IS, IS FRANKLY IRRELEVANT TO THEM.

THE IDEA THAT IN WILL TEACH YOUR CHILDREN TO HATE THEMSELVES, THAT ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE BAD.

THAT IS NOT WHAT CURRICULUM RACE THEORY IS, BUT IT IS RELEVANT TO WHAT THESE PEOPLE SAY, BECAUSE THEIR POINT IS TO WHITE WASH IT AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE TERM WHITE WATCHING WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

TO DELIBERATELY CONCEAL SOMETHING UNPLEASANT OR INCRIMINATING.

IT IS ABOUT COVERING AMERICAN HISTORY IN WHITENESS AND CONCEALING THE TRUTH.

>> Crossley: MICHAEL, THE LEVEL OF VITRIOL IS INTENSE.

I COULD USE RAB RABID ABOUT SOME OF THE CONNECTIONS OF IT, WHY DO YOU THINK THE POINT SHOULD BE TO SCARE SO MANY PEOPLE?

>> I THINK IT'S A TACTIC OF DISTRACTION.

IN ADDITION TO THE VERY REAL PROBLEMS WE HAVE WITH IT'S A TACTIC OF DISTRACTION.

TO PULL PEOPLE'S ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE OTHER VERY REAL POLITICAL CRISES THAT WE'RE FACING IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

WE ARE STILL IN THE MIDST OF A PANDEMIC.

THERE IS A CRISIS ABOUT VOTING RIGHTS RIGHT NOW IN THIS COUNTRY.

THERE IS A CRISIS ABOUT WOMEN'S REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH, PEOPLE'S REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH RIGHT NOW IN THIS COUNTRY.

THERE ARE EMPLOYMENT ISSUES RIGHT NOW IN THIS COUNTRY.

THERE IS A CRIME CRISIS RIGHT NOW IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO IF I CAN COME UP WHERE AN ISSUE THAT'S SO FRIGHTENING TO PEOPLE, RIGHT, THAT IT WILL DIRECTLY THEIR ATTENTION AWAY FROM -- DIRECT THEIR ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE VERY TRULY SEVERE PROBLEMS THAT WE FACE THAT'S A WIN.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT MANY OF THE COMMENTATORS AND POLITICIAN HE ARE TRYING TO DO, REDIRECT THE PEOPLE'S ATTENTION TO SOMETHING THAT WILL SCARE THEM SO THEY CAN'T LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND LOOK AT THEIR PARTY AND SEE ALL THE CULPABILITY AROUND ALL THESE OTHER CRISES THAT WE ARE FACING.

>> Crossley: SO DB RAW DEBORAH THE IDEA OF HISTORY HAS PUSHED SOME PEOPLE INTO THE FACE SPACEY YOU'RE SAYING I'M BAD PERSON THAT THE TEACHING OF ACCURATE HISTORY IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC FOR SOME.

TALK ABOUT THAT MORE IF YOU WOULD.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WHAT WE JUST WENT THROUGH LAST YEAR WITH THE ONSET OF THE PANDEMIC AND THE WAY THAT DISPARATE IMPACTS COORKSD TO RACE AND ETHNICITY BECAME SO CLEAR TO MOST PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY, A LOT OF US ALREADY KNEW THAT ALREADY.

AND THEN WE HAD THE ADVENT OF GEORGE FLOYD AND SIMILAR EVENTS LIKE THAT.

LEFT A LOT OF PEOPLE FAIRLY CONVICTED ABOUT THEIR ROLE IN HOW OUR SYSTEM IS PUT TOGETHER.

BUT THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO, AGAIN, WHO ARE DRIVEN TO DISTRACTION, WHO WANT TO LEAN INTO THE DISTRACTION, WHO WANT TO ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH ESTABLISHED POWER.

POWER THAT IS DRIVEN AND OR WHOSE FOUNDATION IS WHITE SUPREMACY AND SO THEY KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE FEELING SOME KIND OF WAY AND THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT AND SHOW UP IN THE WORLD IN A DIFFERENT SORT OF WAY.

THEY KNOW PEOPLE ARE CONVICTED TO BE DIFFERENT NOW.

SO NOW THEY'RE USING CRITICAL RACE THEORY IS A SORT OF DOG WHISTLE PHRASE TO SAY OH NO, CHANGE IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN AND WE CAN'T LET IT HAPPEN.

>> Crossley: SO FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS SOMEONE WHO BROUGHT ATTENTION AT A NATIONAL LEVEL AGAIN, TO CRITICAL RACE THEORY OR THE DISCUSSION AS WE KNOW IT IN A SPEECH AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES MUSEUM LAST YEAR THE FORMER PRESIDENT SPOKE ABOUT HIS VIEW ON TEACHING HISTORY USING CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

TAKE A LOOK.

>> CRITICAL RACE THEORY, THE 1619 PROJECT, AND THE CRUSADE AGAINST AMERICAN HISTORY IS TOXIC PROPAGANDA, IDEOLOGICAL POISON THAT, IF NOT REMOVED, WILL DISSOLVE THE CIVIC BONDS THAT TIE US TOGETHER.

IT WILL DESTROY OUR COUNTRY.

THAT IS WHY I RECENTLY BANNED TRAININGS IN THIS PREJUDICED IDEOLOGY FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND BANNED IT IN THE STRONGEST MANNER POSSIBLE.

( APPLAUSE ) >> Crossley: SO THOSE TRAININGS, THOSE WERE UNCONSCIOUS BIAS TRAININGS THAT WERE SO MUCH A PART OF AS HE SAID IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PARTICULARLY IN THE MILITARY.

PRESIDENT BIDEN JUST TO PUT A BUTTON ON THAT HAS REPLACED THAT, REMOVED THAT BAN.

BUT NEVERTHELESS, PHILLIP, WHAT YOU SEE IN ALL OF THIS IS REALLY POLITICAL, PERIOD.

AND WEAPONIZING HISTORY OR INACCURATE HISTORY WITH A GOAL OF TRYING TO GET BACK THOSE WHITE SUBURBAN VOTERS, WITH SCHOOL KIDS WHO VOTED FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN LAST GO-ROUND?

>> ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

CALLIE YOU SUMMED IT UP WELL.

AS DID MY COLLEAGUES.

NOW, IT'S MORE THAN A POLITICS OF DISTRACTION HOWEVER.

THIS IS STRATEGIC.

THIS IS PART OF A BRIEFCASE FULL OF LIES IF YOU WILL.

YOU HAVE THE BIG LIE ABOUT THE TRUMP WINNING THE ELECTION, YOU HAVE THE JANUARY 6 LIE ABOUT THESE PEOPLE WERE PATRIOTS AND IT WAS CAUSED BY ANTIFA, THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, AND THE BIRTHERRISM, THE LIE TO APPEAL TO WHITE ETHNONATIONALLISM.

VOTERS WHO VOTED FOR BIDEN IN THIS PAST ELECTION.

THE REASON BIDEN IS PRESIDENT AT THIS MOMENT IS LARGELY DUE TO WHITE SUBURBAN VOTERS WHO HAD BASICALLY HAD IT WITH DONALD TRUMP.

FELT THAT HE HAD GONE TOO FAR.

THIS IS A WAY TO APPEAL TO THOSE VOTERS.

BUT ALSO TO EXTREMISTS.

EXTREMISTS SEE THIS AS A WAY OF CONSOLIDATING THEIR MESSAGING WHICH HAS'S BEEN ABOUT WHITE ETHNONATIONALLISM AND IN OTHER WORDS, WHITE IDENTITY POLITICS.

SO THE ATTACK ON CRITICAL RACE THEORY IT IS HARDLY SURPRISING.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT THEY COULD USES.

IT IS SOME THAT SOUNDS OMINOUS AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT APPEALS TO THE FEARS OF WHITE VOTERS.

>> Crossley: SO WHEN WE SAY ATTACK, I JUST NEED FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND HOW EXTREME THIS HAS GONE.

SO WE HAVE MOVED FROM THE KIND OF VIOLENT DEBATES THAT WE'VE SEEN AT SOME SCHOOL COMMITTEES, ALL PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, TO NOW WISCONSIN ASSEMBLY, TRYING TO PASS A LAW THAT WOULD BAN CERTAIN WORDS.

SO HERE OAR FEW OF THEM.

INEQUALITY, ABOLITIONIST TEACHING, ANTIRACISM, RACIAL SUPREMACY, INTERSECTIONALITY, UNCONSCIOUS WHITENESS, WHAT PHILLIP LAST SAID AND SOME OF WHAT YOU SAID IN THE LAST FEW MINUTES WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE TAUGHT IN K-12.

MICHAEL YOUR RESPONSE?

>> I MEAN IT'S JUST, IT'S TERRIBLE THAT THIS IS THE PLACE THAT WE ARE.

I THINK IT'S EXTREMELY INSTRUCTIVE THAT WHITENESS IS ONE OF THOSE WRORDZ.

IT'S APPROPRIATE, RIGHT?

BECAUSE WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO IS ERASE WHITENESS ITSELF, TO MAKE WHITENESS APPEAR NEUTRAL, TO ALLOW IT TO MAINTAIN ITS INVISIBILITY.

WHEN IN REALITY, HISTORICAL REALITY THAT HAS BEEN A PRECONDITION TO ANY CLAIM TO RIGHTS AND RESPECT IN THIS COUNTRY.

I THINK ONE OF THE REMARKABLE THINGS ABOUT THE DEPTH TO WHICH THIS CONVERSATION HAS SUNK IS THAT IT'S GONE FROM KIND OF A MEDIA CREATION AND POLITICAL CREATION, TO AN EXTREMELY LOCALIZED POLITICAL FIGHT NOW.

AND THAT'S WHAT'S SO FRIGHTENING ABOUT IT.

BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT OFTENTIMES SOME OF THE MOST RESTRICTIVE AND HARMFUL LEGISLATIVE ACTS ARE PASSED AT THE LOCAL AND THE STATE LEVEL, RIGHT?

THAT'S WHY -- YOU KNOW THAT'S ACTUALLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CRITICAL RACE THEORY IRONICALLY TAWRKS ABOUT THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN FEDERAL ENFORCEMENT AND LOCAL ENFORCEMENT AND HOW IT CAN SOLIDIFY RACIAL INEQUALITY.

SO THE LOCAL NATURE OF SOME OF THESE BATTLES IS WHAT WE HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO AND STEP UP.

>> Crossley: SO RENEE WE NOW HAVE A SITUATION WHERE SOMETHING THAT WAS NEVER HAPPENING, IT WAS NOT TAUGHT, EMPHASIZE IT AGAIN IN CASE YOU JUST TUNED IN, IT'S NOT TAUGHT IN K-12 SCHOOL SYSTEMS, IT WASN'T ABOUT TO BE TAUGHT.

IT WAS ONLY DISCUSSED IN LAW SCHOOLS.

ALL RIGHT?

SO WE EVEN SKIPPED OVER COLLEGE AS A THEORY OF WHERE IT WAS TAUGHT SOMEWHAT REGULARLY.

BUT IN LAW SCHOOL IS WHERE IT REALLY WAS TAUGHT.

BUT YET, WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE NOW PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT HISTORY IS REALLY WHAT WE MEAN BY CRITICAL RACE THEORY, NOT THE THEORY ITSELF.

BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, AS WE'VE EXPLAINED DEBORAH, BUT THE HISTORY PART OF IT CANNOT BE TAUGHT BECAUSE IT THEN LEADS TO SOMEHOW CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

>> YOU KNOW, I MEAN, WHITE SUPREMACY DOESN'T REALLY LEND ITSELF TO NUANCE NOW, DOES IT?

SO IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT IT IS TAUGHT IN LAW AND THAT'S THE WAY IT KEEPS EXPANDING WHICH IS WHY AS I SAID THIS IS ABOUT THINGS THAT CONSERVATIVES REALLY DON'T LIKE.

SO WHAT YOU HAVE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN TENNESSEE WITH THIS GROUP, MOMS FOR LIBERTY, THAT NAME SHOULD TELL WHAT YOU THEY'RE ABOUT, THEY ARE OBJECTING TO A CHILDREN'S BOOK ABOUT RUBY BRIDGES WHO INTEGRATED A SCHOOL IN NEW ORLEANS IN 1960.

WHAT THEY DON'T LIKE ABOUT THE BOOK IS THAT IT DOESN'T REDEEM THE ANGRY WHITE PEOPLE YELLING AT HER AS SHE'S TRYING TO GO TO SCHOOL.

IT DOES NOT REDEEM THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE IRREDEEMABLE BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

THEY WANT SOMEHOW THE WHITE PEOPLE IN THAT STORY TO COME OUT AS HEROES OR AT LEAST AS MICHAEL SAID NEUTRAL.

THAT'S A PROBLEM.

WHAT THEY'RE DOING AGAIN IS THEY'RE WHITE WASHING THE FACTS.

IT'S NOT JUST ATTACKING CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

THEY'RE ACTUALLY ATTACKING AMERICAN HISTORY THE WAY IT EXISTS.

THAT'S WHAT HAS ALWAYS HAPPENED IN THE COUNTRY, IN A BLATANT WAY RATHER THAN THE WAY THEY'VE DONE IT FOR THE LAST 200 YEARS.

>> Crossley: DEBORAH, WHAT DO YOU DO, ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING BY THE WAY AGAINST THE CONTEXT OF PEOPLE AFFIRM AHISTORICAL TO BEGIN WITH, MOST PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND AMERICAN HISTORY OR WHAT THEY BELIEVE THEY KNOW ABOUT AMERICAN HISTORY.

THIS IS WHAT WE SAY IT IS BY THE WAY IT'S WRONG AND WE SHOULD OPPOSE IT.

WHERE DO YOU GO FROM THERE?

YOU ARE KIND OF IN AMORPHOUS LIE-FIELD, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO GET HOOD OF THAT.

>> I'M GLAD YOU SURFACED AHISTORICKISM, ALL OF THIS COMES OUT OF THE CONFEDERATE PLAY BOOK, I SPENT THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS COVERING THE MOVEMENTS AGAINST CONFEDERATE MONUMENTS.

I DON'T THINK WE HAVE EVER TAMPED DOWN ON HOW A PORTION OF SOCIETY REVERES CONFEDERACY.

THEY WERE THE TRAITORS, THEY WERE THE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR PEOPLE WHO UPHOLD THE CONFEDERACY, UPHOLD THAT ETHOS, ALLOW IT TO BLEED INTO OUR LANGUAGE AND SOCIAL NORMS.

I THINK YOU SHOULD HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE TO THAT.

YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED THAT YOU BELIEVE IN THOSE BELIEFS.

>> Crossley: BUT PHILLIP HERE WE ARE A LITTLE OVER A YEAR WHERE THE NATION DECLARED A YOU RACIAL RECKONING PARTICULARLY AFTER THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

WHAT'S HAPPENING THEN BETWEEN -- IS IN A PUSH BACK, SOME PEOPLE TRYING TO REACH OUT AND UNDERSTAND ABOUT RACISM'S ROLE IN AMERICAN HISTORY?

>> I'M GLAD DEBORAH MENTIONED THE CONFEDERACY.

THIS HAS A LOT TO DO WITH IT.

IT'S PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THAT PUSH BACK AGAINST RACISM AND THAT STATEMENT OF RACIAL RECONCILIATION, THAT YOU SEE THIS REACTION.

YOU ARE OFTEN GOING TO SEE REACTIONS OF THIS SORT.

IT GETS WORSE BY THE YEAR BUT THIS IS AN ATTEMPT AT MASS REVISIONISM FOR THE NATION.

OF CONFEDERATE LEADERS WERE NOT SEEN AS INTHIS CONTEXT AS REBELS FROM THIS POINT OF VIEW WHICH IS CRITICIZING BLACK HISTORY BUT THEY ARE NOW SEEN AS HEROES.

THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE LAWS OR ATTEMPTS AT LAWS IN PLACES LIKE WISCONSIN AND TEXAS TO BASICALLY CREATE A SITUATION WHERE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DIEIFY THE MEMBERS OF THE CONFEDERACY, TO DIEIFY THE WORST OF AMERICAN HISTORY AND TO BLOT OUT RACISM AS A FACTOR IN AMERICA'S HISTORY.

IT REMINDS ME, AND IT SHOULD REMIND MANY, I KNOW THERE ARE MANY JUXTAPOSITIONS PEOPLE HAVE MADE TO GERMANY.

BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE WIEMAR REPUBLIC AROUND EXTOLLING THE FATHER LAND, AND THE BEHAVIOR THAT LED TO THE CONDITION OF POST-- WORLD WAR I YOU SEE THE SAME TIME OF ATTEMPT HERE.

IT IS AS RENEE SAID A WHITE WASHING OF HISTORY, AN ATTEMPT TO PRESENT AN ALTERNATE HISTORY, YET AGAIN ANOTHER BIG LIE.

THIS ONE WITH FAR GREATER CONSEQUENCES THAN SIMPLY TALKING ABOUT THE LIE OF AN ELECTION AND THE LIE OF BIRTHERRISM AND THE LIE OF JANUARY 6th.

THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO BASICALLY EX CULLEX CULL PATE THE WORST OF AMERICANS SLAVERY AND ATTEMPT TO REWRITE AMERICAN HISTORY.

RIEM NOT SURE WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO WHEN WE GET TO FEBRUARY, BLACK HISTORY MONTH.

THAT WILL BE AN ATTEMPT TO REWRITE EVERYTHING THAT WE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT AND KNOW TO BE TRUE.

>> Crossley: SO MICHAEL, IS THIS FLAT-OUT A PUSH BACK AGAINST THE DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES THAT HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED NOW BY THE MOST RECENT CENSUS REPORTS?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S CERTAINLY PART OF IT.

BUT QUITE HONESTLY, I DON'T BELIEVE THE DEMOGRAPHICS ALONE ARE DRIVING THIS STORY.

EVEN IF THE DEMOGRAPHIC STORY, THE DEMOGRAPHIC ISSUES WERE DIFFERENT, THE QUEST TO RETAIN POWER, RIGHT, THE POLITICAL IMPERATIVE TO RETAIN POWER WOULD BE THE SAME FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AT THE CENTER OF THIS STORM, RIGHT?

SO IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT OH, THERE'S SOME SORT OF DEMOGRAPHIC ENCROACHMENT OR ONE OR TWO PRELIMINARY ISSUES THAT HAVE SORT OF ALL OF A SUDDEN BROUGHT THIS TO THE FORE, IT'S THAT THESE FOLKS ARE DESPERATE, RIGHT?

BECAUSE THEY ARE LOOKING AROUND AND SEEING THAT THE THINGS THEY BELIEVE IN SIMPLY AREN'T TRUE.

HAVE BEEN BORNE OUT TO BE FATALITIES, RIGHT?

THE PROMISE OF CAPITALISM AS A GREAT EQUALIZER, FALSE, RIGHT?

THE NOTION THAT WE ARE IN A KIND OF POSTRACIAL SOCIETY.

FALSE.

THE NOTION THAT WE COULD DENY CLIMATE CHANGE.

FALSE.

RIGHT?

SO THEY'RE IN A PLACE OF DESPERATION.

THEY'LL DO ANYTHING THEY CAN TO KEEP THE ATTENTION AND THE POWER THAT THEY NEED TO MAINTAIN THEIR DOMINANCE OVER SOCIETY.

SO IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE DEMOGRAPHICS OR JUST ABOUT OBAMA OR EVEN JUST ABOUT GEORGE FLOYD IN THE RECENT MOVEMENT RIGHT?

IT'S A SYMPTOM.

IT'S A RESPONSE TO THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO HOLD ONTO SO THEY HAVE TO GO TO THIS PLACE OF UNREALITY, IT IS AN ACT OF DESPERATION.

>> Crossley: SO STARTING WITH YOU DEBORAH ARE YOU ANGRY OR SAD ABOUT THIS?

>> I'M BEYOND SAD.

I'M A WORD THAT YOU CAN'T SAY ON TELEVISION.

>> Crossley: OKAY.

RENEE.

>> I'M ANGRY.

I'M ANGRY BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SO LONG.

AND NOW, WE'RE JUST SEEING THIS EVEN GREATER MANIFESTATION OF THIS LIE.

>> Crossley: PHILLIP.

>> SAD.

I THINK YOU CAN PROBABLY SEE FROM THE EXPRESSION ON MY FACE.

HARD TO BE NEUTRAL ABOUT SOMETHING SO ATROCIOUS AND SUCH A BIG LIE.

AND IT ALSO, ITS IMPACT ON HISTORY MAKES ME VERY CONCERNED.

>> Crossley: AND MICHAEL.

>> I'M CERTAINLY DISTURBED BY ALL OF THIS.

IT'S ALSO REAFFIRMING FOR THOSE OF US WHO DO THE WORK OF TEACHING THE HARD HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY AND ITS ROLE IN THE WORLD.

WE NEED EACH OTHER AND WE NEED OUR STUDENTS.

WE NEED THEIR INSPIRATION, THEIR CREATIVITY AND THEIR ATTENTION IF WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD TOGETHER.

>> Crossley: WHICH BRINGS ME TO THIS QUESTION, DEBORAH.

I THINK IF YOU ARE STANDING ON THE OUTSIDE AND YOU ARE BEGINNING TO BELIEVE WHAT SOME OF THESE PEOPLE ARE PUTTING OUT THERE ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND ALL OF THE ATTENDING ISSUES AS WE HAVE DISCUSSED MAYBE YOU THINK IT IS REALLY ONLY A PROBLEM FOR US, FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR.

PLEASE TALK ABOUT WHY THIS IS BIGGER THAN JUST A PROBLEM FOR US IF ALLOWED TO CONTINUE TO FOMENT.

>> I THINK THAT WE'RE EXPERIENCING IT RIGHT NOW.

WE ARE IN A PANDEMIC THAT HAS GONE ON WAY TOO LONG.

BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A SENSE OF NATIONAL ITY AROUND WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO GET THROUGH THIS.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE THIS IDEA THAT THEY -- THEIR VERSION OF THE COUNTRY IS THE REAL VERSION OF THE COUNTRY AND THEY DON'T HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO CARE FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

AND THE WHOLE POINT OF THE AMERICAN PROJECT IS FOR US TO CARE FOR EACH OTHER.

NOT CREATE A SOCIETY FOR SOME PEOPLE TO WIN, AND SOME PEOPLE TO LOSE, ALWAYS.

WE EXPERIENCED THAT WITH THE PLIGHT OF ESSENTIAL WORKERS, ESPECIALLY AT THE BEGINNING PART OF THE PANDEMIC, THE EARLY PARTS OF THE PANDEMIC.

SOME PEOPLE ARE COMFORTABLE WITH THAT BUT A LOT MORE PEOPLE ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH IT AT ALL ANYMORE.

>> Crossley: RENEE ADD TO THAT IF YOU WOULD.

>> YOU KNOW I THINK THE IDEA, WHITE SUPREMACY IS A DEATH TRAP.

AND I DON'T KNOW THAT A LOT OF WHITE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT BECAUSE THEY VERY MUCH BENEFIT FROM IT WHETHER THEY REALIZE IT OR NOT.

IF YOU GO BACK TO SOMETHING THAT FANNIE LOU HAMER SAID, IF I'M NOT FREE, YOU'RE NOT FREE.

IF MY RIGHTS ARE AT RISK SO ARE YOURS, WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH CRITICAL RACE DURING THIS SORT OF STUPID DEBATE ABOUT IT?

IT'S NOT ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY, IT'S ABOUT AMERICAN HISTORY AND EVERY AMERICAN HAS A STAKE HOW THAT'S TAUGHT AND HOW IT'S UNDERSTOOD AND IF WE DON'T HAVE THAT, THEN WE REALLY DON'T HAVE THAT GREATER SENSE OF NATIONAL UNITY AS DEBORAH MENTIONED, WE'RE KIND OF LOST IN THE WOODS IN OUR OWN COUNTRY BECAUSE WE WON'T OWN EVERY PART OF WHAT THIS COUNTRY IS AND WHAT THIS COUNTRY'S DONE.

IF WE CAN'T DO THAT WE CAN'T MOVE FORWARD.

>> Crossley: PHILLIP.

>> ALL AMERICANS HAVE A STAKE IN DIFFRACTIONDEMOCRACY AND MAINTAINING DEMOCRACY.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING WITH THIS SO-CALLED CRITIQUE OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY, WHICH IS NOT A CRITIQUE AT ALL, IT'S JUST THROWING MUD AT AN ISSUE THAT MOST OF THESE FOLKS DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT.

BUT WHAT IT IS IS AN ATTEMPT TO CLAW BACK HISTORY TO BRING US BACK TO A POINT THAT I NEVER EXISTED, THIS LEAVE IT TO BEAVER FANTASY WORLD OF THE 1950s AND TO CREATE CONDITIONS THAT ARE CONDUCIVE FOR ESSENTIALLY THRIVING IN LIES, OF WHICH WE SEE AGAIN WITH THE ATTEMPT TO REVISE, THINGS THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, THE JANUARY 6th ATTEMPT BY THE ULTRARIGHT WING TO TAKE OVER THIS NATION'S CAPITOL.

IT IS INCUMBENT UPON US IF WE WANT TO MOVE FORWARD AND NOT BACKWARD TO ALSO TELL HISTORY IN NOT A WAY THAT IS SO BLATANTLY REVISIONIST BUT TO TELL THE TRUTH OF HISTORY, AND HISTORY'S TRUTH SADLY MEANS THAT RACISM IS CENTRAL TO THIS COUNTRY'S FOUNDING AND TO THE INSTITUTIONS THAT CONTINUE TO THRIVE IN THIS COUNTRY.

THEY ARE PART -- RACISM IS PART AND PHARMACEUTICAL PARCEL OF THOSE INSTITUTIONALISM AND WE NEED THAT TO UNDERSTAND WHERE WE'RE GOING SO WE DON'T MOVE BACKWARDS.

>> Crossley: MICHAEL.

>> YEAH, I MEAN I THINK MY COLLEAGUES ARE CERTAINLY RIGHT THAT WE ALL HAVE A STAKE IN DEMOCRACY.

AND I THINK THE POINT THAT I'M HEARING OVER AND OVER AGAIN IS, THIS ISN'T NEW.

AND WE CAN'T AFFORD TO IGNORE IT.

YOU KNOW, AS MUCH AS WE WANT TO DISMISS SOME OF THE ARGUMENTS THAT WE HEAR BECAUSE THEY ARE TRULY, IN SOME CASES ACTUALLY WORTHY OF RIDICULE AND SORT OF GREATBLATANTLY FALSE, WE CAN'T AFFORD TO DISENGAGE NOW.

FOR THOSE OF US.

>> Johnny: ORGANIZED AROUND THE PREVIOUS ELECTION AND THROUGHOUT THE PAST FEW YEARS, THERE'S SOME FATIGUE, CERTAINLY WE'RE STILL DEALING WITH THE PANDEMIC AS WELL BUT WE'VE GOT TO FIND WAYS TO CONTINUE TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE CONVERSATION, TO LIFT EACH OTHER UP AND TO KEEP INSISTING ON ABETTER WAY FORWARD.

AND WHEN WE DO THOSE THINGS WE CAN ACHIEVE VICTORIES ALONG THE WAY BUT WE CAN'T AFFORD TO TUNE OUT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THE SITUATION IS JUST TOO SERIOUS.

>> Crossley: RENEE DOES THIS GET WORSE BEFORE THERE'S ANY TURN OR DOES -- WILL THERE BE A TURN?

>> I UNFORTUNATELY THINK IT'S GOING TO GET WORSE.

I MEAN I THINK THERE'S A LONG GAME HERE.

I THINK THE IDEA ON WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE WAY SCHOOL BOARDS ARE BEING ATTACKED IS TO DRIVE OFF, DRY AWAY THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT TEACHING HISTORY IN THE PROPER WAY AND TO REPLACE THOSE PEOPLE WITH YIED IDEALOGUES.

I THINK IT CAN ONLY GET WORSE ABOUT THEIR THINKING, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT HOW SLAVERY IS TAUGHT BUT IT'S HOW THEY ARE TEACHING THE HARLEM RENAISSANCE.

IT'S NOT ABOUT CHANGING HISTORY, IT'S ABOUT BLACK ERASURE, TO ERASE ACCOMPLISHMENT AND ACHIEVEMENT.

THE IDEA IS TO REPLACE PEOPLE ON SCHOOL BOARDS AND LIBRARY BOARDS SO THE BOOKS IN THOSE LIBRARIES COULD BE CONTROLLED TO FURTHER THIS IDEA OF WHITE SUPREMACY AND PROTECT IT.

>> Crossley: DEBORAH, JUST GOT A FEW SECONDS LEFT.

WORSE BEFORE IT GETS BETTER?

>> OH IT DEFINITELY WILL GET WORSE.

WE'VE BEEN IN REALLY TERRIBLE POSITIONS IN THIS COUNTRY BEFORE WITH THE HIGHEST STAKES.

LIFE AND DEATH.

AND WE ARE IN ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS RIGHT NOW.

AND I THINK WE NEED TO GET SOME STRATEGY AROUND HOW WE DEAL WITH THIS MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION WHILE WE DO THE ACTUAL WORK.

>> Crossley: SO STRATEGIES TO GO AGAINST WHAT PHILLIP HAS EARLIER DESCRIBED AS A STRATEGY, PUT IN PLACE TO ACTUALLY BRING THIS TO THE POINT WE'RE AT NOW.

WELL, I THANK YOU ALL FOR THIS DISCUSSION.

IT'S A TOUGH ONE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THAT'S THE END OF OUR BROADCAST AND THE END OF OUR SHOW.

THANKS TO ALL OF OUR GUESTS AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION, ONLINE ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS-- FACEBOOK, TWITTER AND YOU TUBE.

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