♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Crossley: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST, AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

I'M CALLIE CROSSLEY, HOST OF "UNDER THE RADAR," 89.7.

TONIGHT: THE BUSINESS OF FITTING IN FOR EMPLOYEES OF COLOR.

WE, LIKE YOU, ARE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC, AND ARE TAKING PRECAUTIONS.

WE ARE WORKING WITH LIMITED STAFF AND OUR GUESTS ARE JOINING US REMOTELY.

ONE OF THE TOP PRIORITIES OF HIRING MANAGERS IS IDENTIFYING A POTENTIAL EMPLOYEE WHO THEY THINK WILL FIT IN AT THE COMPANY.

EMPLOYERS OFTEN ASSESS WHETHER A POTENTIAL EMPLOYEE WILL BE A GOOD FIT BY PINPOINTING SHARED COMMONALITIES LIKE SOCIAL BACKGROUND OR EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE.

BUT WHEN POTENTIAL EMPLOYEES-- ESPECIALLY JOB APPLICANTS OF COLOR-- DON'T FIT THE MOLD, THEY LOSE OUT.

IS SO-CALLED "CULTURAL FIT" A MAJOR FACTOR IN HIRING DISCRIMINATION?

AND HOW CAN DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION INITIATIVES OVERCOME THIS OBSTACLE?

JOINING US: DR. NEFERTITI WALKER, VICE CHANCELLOR FOR DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION AND CHIEF DIVERSITY OFFICER AT UMASS AMHERST; DR. CECIL R. WEBSTER, JR., AN ADULT, ADOLESCENT AND CHILD PSYCHIATRIST AND PSYCHOTHERAPIST; YASMIN CRUZ FERRINE, COFOUNDER AND GENERAL PARTNER OF VISIBLE HANDS VC, AN INVESTMENT FIRM THAT SUPPORTS UNDERREPRESENTED TALENT IN BUILDING TECHNOLOGY START-UPS; AND PRATT WILEY, PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF THE PARTNERSHIP.

WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU.

SO LET ME START WITH YOU NEFERTITI BECAUSE I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO DEFINE WHAT WE MEAN BY FIT IN TERMS OF A COMPANY, HOW DOES A COMPANY DEFINE FIT?

>> SO THANK YOU.

THAT'S A FANTASTIC QUESTION, AND, YOU KNOW, IT DEPENDS ON THE ORGANIZATION, BUT HISTORICALLY, THE WAY THAT ORGANIZATIONS HAVE DEFINED FIT IS TO HIRE SOMEONE TO CONSIDER A CANDIDATE THIS FITS IN, ALIGNS WELL WITH THEIR VALUES, THEIR MISSION OF THE ORGANIZATION.

THAT'S HOW THE-O DEFINES IT.

HOWEVER -- THE ORGANIZATION DEFINES IT.

HOWEVER WHEN WE ACTUALLY CONSIDER THE PRACTICE OF GOING THROUGH THE SEARCH PRACTICE AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE WAY THAT THE FOLKS THAT ARE LEADING THE SEARCH PROCESSES DEFINE CULTURAL FIT OFTENTIMES PEOPLE LEAN INTO THEIR COIRLT BIASES, THAT -- CULTURAL BIASES, OFTEN COMPLETELY NEGATING THE FACT THAT YOU'RE HIRING THE PERSON FOR YOUR ORGANIZATION NOT FOR YOUR PERSONAL COMFORT.

>> Crossley: AND YASMIN, YOU SAID SO OFTEN THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE UNSAID.

YOU THINK YOU KNOW THE VALUES OF THE COMPANY, YOU THINK YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THE QUOTE FIT WOULD BE, BUT THERE'S A LOT THAT'S NOT SAID.

HOW DOES THAT WORK WHEN POTENTIAL APPLICANTS OF COLOR, WHEN APPLICANTS OF COLOR APPLY FOR A JOB, IF THINGS ARE NOT SAID, YOU DON'T KNOW?

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT CULTURE IS SUCH A COMPLEX TERM THAT WE USE SO OFTEN IN AN ORGANIZATION.

AND REALLY, WHAT IT MEANS IS WHAT IS CELEBRATED AND TOLERATED.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE BUZZ WORDS THAT WE WRITE DOWN ON A PIECE OF PAPER.

AND WHEN YOU'RE IN THE SELECTION PROCESS, IT CAN BE REALLY HARD TO DISCERN WHAT IS CELEBRATED AND TOLERATED.

BECAUSE WHAT IS STATED TYPICALLY ISN'T ALWAYS WHAT THE NORMS ARE LIKE.

>> Crossley: SO DR. CECIL, YOU HAVE ANOTHER TERMINOLOGY FOR THIS, PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY.

NOW EXPLAIN HOW THAT FITS IN THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT FIT, AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR POTENTIAL EMPLOYEES OF COLOR.

>> YEAH, WELL IT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

WE HAVE THIS IDEA OF CULTURAL FIT AND MUCH LIKE WHAT'S BEEN SAID BEFORE, THAT MIGHT BE THE MISSION, OR THE VALUES OF AN ORGANIZATION.

HOWEVER, IT'S REALLY MORE ABOUT THE VALUATION, THE CULTURE OF THAT INDIVIDUAL, THE HIRING MANAGER OF THE TEAM, FOR EXAMPLE.

AND SO WITH AFRICAN AMERICANS IN GENERAL PEOPLE OF COLOR WE OFTEN LOOK FOR SAFETY.

WE'RE MARGINALIZED OFTENTIMES IN AMERICA, WE'RE SUBJECT TO VIOLENCE, WE JUST NEED TO TURN ON OUR TELEVISION TO NOTE SOME OF THAT.

SO A LOT OF US ARE QUITE VIGILANT, QUITE OBSERVANT OF THE ENVIRONMENTS IN WHICH WE WOULD LIKE TO THRIVE LIKE TO WORK AND OTHER THINGS.

SO HAVING A SENSE OF PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY THAT YOU'LL BE ABLE TO EXPRESS, NOT ONLY, YOU KNOW, OF YOUR WORK BUT YOUR DESIRES WITHIN AN ORGANIZATION OR THAT GIVES CRITICAL FEEDBACK WHEN IT'S NECESSARY AND NOT BE PENALIZED FOR IT.

THAT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY AND NEEDING TO FEEL WHOLE AND THAT YOU HAVE A REASONABLE PLACE TO THRIVE.

>> Crossley: TO PRATT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUSINESS IMPERATIVES.

A LOT OF TIMES PEOPLE WILL HEAR THIS CONVERSATION AND SAY WELL THAT FEELS NICE, WE WANT TO HAVE EVERYBODY SIGN ON WE WANT TO BE EXPLICIT, WE ARE THE WORLD.

BUT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS THIS ACTUALLY HAS A BOTTOM-LINE IMPACT BECAUSE IF A POTENTIAL EMPLOYEE OF COLOR DOES NOT FEEL SAFE IN THE WAY THAT DR. CECIL HAS EXPLAINED, THEN THEY FEEL AT RISK, AT WORK AND THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO WORK TO THEIR FULL POTENTIAL.

>> THEATER, THAT'S RIGHT.

WE WITH -- THAT'S RIGHT, THAT'S RIGHT.

WE BELIEVE THAT THE GREATEST COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE THAT AN ORGANIZATION CAN HAVE IS ITS TALENT.

IN AN AGE WHERE EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, IN AN AGE WHERE EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO ROBOTICS, IN AN AGE WHERE EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO WHATEVER COMES NEXT, WHAT REALLY DIFFERENTIATES THOSE COMPANIES THAT WIN VERSUS THOSE COMPANIES THAT LOSE IS THE ABILITY TO ATTRACT AND DEVELOP THE TALENT, THE WORKFORCE THAT CAN BEST LEVERAGE THAT TECHNOLOGY AND THOSE INNOVATIONS AND DEVELOP THAT TECHNOLOGY AND INNOVATIONS.

SO THAT MEANS BRINGING TOGETHER THE LARGEST POOL OF TALENT.

AND WE KNOW THAT ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE MORE DIVERSE ARE MORE INNOVATIVE.

THEY ARE FASTER AND BETTER AT DEVELOPING PRODUCTS, THEY ARE FASTER AND BETTER AT OPENING UP NEW MARKETS.

AND SO THIS IS REALLY A BUSINESS IMPERATIVE.

THIS IS ABOUT SURVIVAL.

THIS IS ABOUT COMPETITION.

THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT WHAT IS POLITE OR WHAT MAKES US FEEL GOOD.

THIS IS ABOUT HOW WE CONTINUE TO THRIVE ECONOMICALLY.

>> Crossley: SO NEFERTITI YOU TALKED ABOUT SOMETHING CALLED PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY INFLUENCERS.

THESE ARE PEOPLE IN LEADERSHIP.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

HOW DOES THAT WORK OUT SO THERE CAN BE A SAFE SPACE AND THE BUSINESS IMPERATIVE THAT PRATT HAS JUST SAID, PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY CAN THRIVE IN AN ENVIRONMENT WORK, HOW DOES THAT WORK?

>> WELL THIS WORKS IN THE FACT THAT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT CULTURE IN GENERAL LEADERS OF THE ORGANIZATION ARE THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR REALLY SET BEING THE PACE FOR CULTURE.

THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR MIRRORING THE VULNERABILITY THAT IS NECESSARY, IN ORDER FOR PEOPLE TO FEEL COMFORTABLE AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY SAFE IN THE ORGANIZATION AND THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR ENSURING THAT THE DIRECTORS AND MANAGERS AT THE VARIOUS LEVELS ARE DOING SOMETHING SIMILAR.

SO WHEN I SPEAK ABOUT THE PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY INFLUENCERS, I'M THINKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN THE ORGANIZATION WHO ARE IN A LOT OF WAYS ALLIES OR COME FROM MARGINALIZED UNDERREPRESENTED ORGANIZATIONS THEMSELVES AND CREATE A SPACE THAT IS SAFE FOR PEOPLE.

THEY HAVE THE POWER TO INFLUENCE HOW PEOPLE ARE TREAT FLED SOME SPACES, TO CAN SHIFT MEETING DYNAMICS, SO PEOPLE IN THE ORGANIZATION REGARDLESS OF THEIR IDENTITIES BUT PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE BLACK AFRICAN AMERICANS OR HISTORICALLY MARGINALIZED IDENTITIES THEY HAVE A SPACE WHERE THEY CAN FEEL TOTALLY SAFE.

IF YOU ARE A PART OF THE ORGANIZATION THAT MAKES THE SAFETY IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

IT COMES DOWN TO THE INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE THE POWER AND INFLUENCE, BOTH STRUCTURALLY AND ORGANIZATIONALLY, TO HAVE PEOPLE FEEL THEMSELVES AUTHENTICALLY IN THE ORGANIZATION.

CREDITS JUST TO UNDERSCORE WHAT YOU SID, IF LEADERSHIP IS NOT ON BOARD FORGET IT.

>> IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

THAT'S THE DIFFICULT PART OF THIS CONVERSATIONS, HISTORICALLY THE FOLKS THAT HAVE BEEN IN THESE LEADERSHIP POSITIONS ARE MOSTLY WHITE MEN RIGHT?

OFTENTIMES YOU'RE OFTEN HAVING TO WORK THROUGH THESE SITUATION WEST WHITE MEN TO GET THEM ON BOARD, YOU'RE HAVING TO HIRE FOLKS IN POSITIONS WHERE THEY HAVEN'T TRADITIONALLY BEEN REPRESENTED BUT YOU'RE HAVING TO SHAKE UP THE DYNAMICS OF HOW ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN STRUCTURED.

AND THE PERSONNEL OF CERTAIN POSITIONS OF POWER WITHIN THE ORGANIZATIONS.

>> Crossley: SO CECIL WHAT NEFERTITI TALKS ABOUT BRINGING YOUR FULL AUTHENTICSELF TO WORK.

NOW YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO SAY LET'S TALK BLACK TALK.

MOST PEOPLE WERE RAISED, DON'T BRING YOUR PERSONAL BUSINESS INTO THE WORKPLACE, DON'T SHOW THAT PART OF YOURSELF.

WE DO SOMETHING ELSE IN THAT SPACE.

IF WE HAPPEN TO GET THE JOB, WE SPLIT OURSELVES AND SOME PEOPLE CALL IT CODE-SWITCHING.

DESCRIBE, PLEASE.

>> YEAH, WELL CODE-SWITCHING IS THE TERM THAT WE USE FOR HOW WE USE LANGUAGE, SPECIFICALLY AND HOW WE USE WHRANG OUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY AND LIKE SORT OF BLACK VERNACULAR.

YOU KNOW IF I WERE WITH MY PARENTS OR AT A FAMILY REUNION LIKE MY CADENCE MIGHT CHANGE, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BREAK ME OFF SOME OF THAT POTATO SALAD THERE.

BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY THAT IN A BOARD MEETING WITH A NONFROST ORGANIZATION THAT I MIGHT BE A PART OF BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE THAT SAME MAKEUP.

WITH THE SORT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL SPLITTING THAT CAN OCCUR WHICH CAN INCLUDE THAT CODE SWITCHING WE LEAVE MORE OF OURSELVES BEHIND NOT JUST WITH LANGUAGE.

IT MIGHT BE AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMEN FOR EXAMPLE MIGHT FEEL MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE WEARING RELAXED HAIR VERSUS WEARING THAT ARE NATURAL HAIR.

THE TONE AND FEEDBACK, BLACK MAN FOR EXAMPLE, IT MIGHT BE SEEN AS AGGRESSIVE TO OTHER PEOPLE AND THEY MIGHT SOFTEN THEIR TONE.

IT MIGHT BE THAT YOU ALLOW YOURSELF TO SHRINK PARTS OF YOURSELF AND YOUR PERSONALITY.

THE FOODS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE, SAY FOR EXAMPLE SOUTH ASIAN THERE ARE ALL THESE SORTS OF WAYS IN ADDITION TO LANGUAGE THAT WE TRY TO SHRINK OURSELVES TO FIT INTO THE ORGANIZATION.

IT'S AT A WEIRD TIME AS WELL BUT GO AHEAD.

>> Crossley: SO PRATT IF PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE SHRINKING THEMSELVES IN THE WORKPLACE, YOU GET INNOVATION WHEN THERE ARE FOLKS WHO ARE NOT -- DON'T LOOK LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, BRING THEIR FULL AUTHENTIC SELVES TO THE SPACE THEN WHAT HAPPENS?

YOU'RE NOT -- IF PEOPLE CAN'T BRING THEIR FULL AUTHENTIC SELVES, THE COMPANIES LOSE ACTUALLY ALL OF THEIR TALENT AND VALUE.

RIGHT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

COMPANIES GROW WHEN THE PEOPLE WITHIN THEIR ORGANIZATIONS GROW.

AND IN ORDER TO GROW, FIRST YOU NEED A SAFE SPACE.

FIRST YOU NEED A SPACE WHERE YOU ARE EMPOWERED TO TAKE RISKS.

THEN BY TAKING RISKS, THAT'S THEN HOW YOU GROW.

AND SO IF YOU HAVE A CULTURE, IF YOU HAVE AN ORGANIZATION WHERE FOLKS DON'T HAVE THAT SENSE OF SAFETY, THAT SENSE OF BELONGING, THAT SENSE OF SPACE AND PLACE, THEN THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ENCOURAGED TO TAKE THOSE RISKS AND THOSE STEPS THAT ARE NECESSARY FOR THEMSELVES TO GROW.

THAT NOT ONLY LIMITS THE ORGANIZATION.

>> Crossley: SO YASMIN, HERE WE ARE AND WE'RE THE YEAR PAST THE QUOTE SUMMER OF RACIAL RECKONING AND A LOT OF COMPANIES THAT WEREN'T INTO OR MAYBE THEY HADN'T FULLY EXPRESSED THEIR DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION, COMMITMENT, NOT OEVEN INITIATIVES, ARE -- NOT EVEN NISKS GOT ON BOARD OR SAID THEY DID.

SO WHAT IS THE POWER OF DEI TO UNBLOCK SOME OF THIS, THE ASSUMPTIONS AROUND CULTURAL FIT AS WE'VE DESCRIBED HERE?

>> YEAH, SO DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION, IT REALLY HAS TO BE A PART OF THE ORGANIZATION'S DNA.

WHENEVER IT IS AN ADD-ON, IT IS REALLY HARD TO FILL ALL OF THE CREDIBILITY, PARADOX THAT YOU CAN FEEL, AS SOMEONE WHO COULD BE UNDERREPRESENTED, IN AN INDUSTRY.

THE TRUST THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE SAFETY THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, INCLUSION IS ALL ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE.

IT ISN'T NECESSARILY ABOUT BEING A PART OF A NUMBERED SET.

AND IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO MAKE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE THINKING ABOUT THIS IN REALLY BROAD TERMS AND THROUGHOUT THE ORGANIZATION.

I MEAN THERE'S RESEARCH THAT SHOWS THAT DIVERSITY TRAINING, FOR EXAMPLE, CAN ACTUALLY BACK FIRE.

IF IT'S NOT DONE WELL.

AND SO PROFESSORS HAVE SHARED THAT, THAT WORK FROM THE FIELD, WITH BUSINESSES.

SO WE REALLY DO NEED TO THINK ABOUT THIS HOLISTICALLY.

>> Crossley: SO WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE DEI PARTICULARLY I WAS THINKING ARE THAT YOU HAD SAID THAT THE SOCIAL JUSTICE PIECE OF THIS HAS TO BE, AS PRATT HAS UNDERSCORED, TIED TO THE BUSINESS PIECE OF THIS.

BECAUSE IF IT'S NOT IT'S SORT OF STANDING IN A VACUUM.

>> CORRECT.

THERE IS ALSO RESEARCH THAT SHOWS WHEN YOU'RE, ESPECIALLY WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF AN ORGANIZATION, SPEAKING ABOUT DEI AND THE MOTIVATIONS FOR CHANGING, FOR EXAMPLE, YOUR VALUATION PROCESS, OR YOUR SELECTION PROCESS, THAT IT COMES FROM A PERSPECTIVE OF A SOCIAL JUSTICE MANDATE WITHIN AN ORGANIZATION, IT MAY NOT BE AS EFFECTIVE AS WHEN YOU SPEAK TO IT FROM KNOWLEDGE, RIGHT?

HOW ARE WE GOING TO RETAIN OUR HUMAN CAPITAL, HOW ARE WE GOING TO HAVE MORE EFFECTIVE AND PRODUCTIVE TEAMS?

HOW ARE WE GOING TO WORK THROUGH SOME OF THE DYNAMICS AROUND BONDING, YOU KNOW, THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN LEFT, YOU KNOW, TO DEFAULT.

INSTEAD OF BEING INTENTIONAL ABOUT THEM.

>> Crossley: SO SOME OF YOU PROBABLY KNOW THE HIGH PROFILE CASE OF THE GOOGLE EMPLOYEE THAT WAS LET GO BECAUSE OF A LACK OF FIT.

I LOVE YOU TO EACH RESPOND TO THAT AND WHAT YOU SAW IN THAT.

PRATT I'LL START WITH YOU.

>> YOU KNOW, THANK YOU.

AND PART OF, IF I CAN ALSO JUST RESPOND TO WHAT YASMIN WAS SAYING.

CULTURE IS VITALLY IMPORTANT.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT A CHIEF DIVERSITY OFFICER AND I'M SURE NEFERTITI HAS ENCOUNTERED THIS AS WELL, IS YOUR ROLE IN PART IS TO BE A CURATOR OF CULTURE.

AND TO ENSURE THAT ALL OF THE VOICES WITHIN YOUR ORGANIZATION HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE HEARD, HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE EXPRESSED, HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY THEN TO BE ACTED UPON.

AND WHAT YOU WILL SEE FOR THOSE ORGANIZATIONS AND ESPECIALLY THOSE ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE REDPMED REEXAMINED AND DOUBLED DOWN ON THEIR DIVERSITY INITIATIVES THEIR FOCUS ON BELONGING OVER THIS LAST YEAR IS REALLY TO EMPOWER THEIR PROFESSIONALS, THEIR PRACTITIONERS TO HAVE GREATER CONTROL AND INPUT INTO THE CULTURE OF THE ORGANIZATION.

AND TO DEFUSE THE CONVERSATION ACROSS BUSINESS LINES AND TO MAKE IT REALLY THE WORK OF EVERYONE AND OF EVERY MANAGER WITHIN AN ORGANIZATION.

AND I THINK WHAT YOU WILL SEE IN CASES CERTAINLY HIGH PROFILE CASES SUCH AS THE ONE AS GOOGLE, IS A FAILURE TO EMPOWER YOUR DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION INITIATIVES AND THE PRACTITIONERS TO DO THE WORK AND TO BE THOSE CURATORS OF CULTURE.

>> Crossley: AND NEFERTITI I WANT TO UNDERSCORE SOMETHING WITH THE SCIENTIST, TIMET GABREW WHO WAS SO HIGHLY THOUGHT OF SHE IS OUT FRONT DOING TED TALKS.

THIS IS NOT FOR LACK OF TALENT, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO DON'T COME TO THE TABLE WITH THE SKILL OR THE TALENTS TO BE ABLE TO COME TO THE TABLING, SOMEBODY WHO FITS IS LOOKING AT SOMETHING ELSE NEFERTITI.

>> YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT.

THAT'S NOT A QUESTION IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE, IN MOST INSTANCES.

I THINK THIS IS A QUESTION OF THE REALITY OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN ORGANIZATIONS AND THE PERCEPTION THAT ORGANIZATIONS WOULD LIKE FOR FOLKS ON THE OUTSIDE TO BELIEVE IT'S HAPPENING WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION.

OFTENTIMES WHEN WE GO THROUGH THESE TRANSFORMATIONS AND EVERY ORGANIZE IS GOING THROUGH A TRANSFORMATION WITH REGARD TO RACIAL JUSTICE AND SOCIAL JUSTICE, THE PART THAT'S MOST EASILY FORGETTEN IT'S THE MOST DIFFICULT PART FOR US TO RECKON WITH, IT'S MUCH EASIER TO HAVE DIVERSITY STATEMENTS, TO DEVELOP POLICIES, AND PROCEDURES RELATED TO RECOGNITION, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT WHEN YOU BEGIN TO PULL BACK THE WAYS OF YOUR ORGANIZATION AND RECOGNIZE PARTS OF YOUR PRODUCT ITSELF, PARTS OF THE WAYS THAT YOU'RE TREATING YOUR EMPLOYEES AND PARTS OF THE WAYS YOU'RE ENGAGING WITH YOUR CONSUMERS, YOUR CUSTOMERS ARE NOT ROOTED IN EQUITY AND JUSTICE.

AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT WAS HANG THERE, RIGHT?

AND WHEN THAT BEGINS TO HAPPEN, WHEN PEOPLE INTERNALLY THAT ARE WELL RENOWNED AND WELL RESPECTED IN THEIR INDUSTRIES BEGIN TO SHARE SOME OF THE INTERNAL STRIFE, BEGIN TO SHARE SOME OF THE WAYS YOU MAY NOT BE RECOGNIZE ON WITH EQUITY AND JUSTICE, MOST ORGANIZATIONS THE LEADERS ARE GOING TO TRY SQUASH THAT RIGHT?

BECAUSE WE WANT A VERY WELL PACKAGED NARRATIVE ABOUT WHO WE ARE AS AN ORGANIZATION.

SO YOU KNOW I THINK AT LEAST IN MY PERSPECTIVE A LOT OF WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE IS THE UNWILLINGNESS TO TRULY RECKON AUTHENTICALLY WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION.

THE UNWILLINGNESS TO RECOGNIZE THE DEFICIENCY WITHIN THE PRODUCT, WHETHER IT BE BIAS, WHETHER IT BE MISTREATMENT OF EMPLOYEES, UNTIL YOU RECKON WITH THAT AND YOU ACKNOWLEDGE IT AND YOU CREATE AN AWARENESS OF THE COMPANY AND YOU BEGIN TO MOVE FORWARD CENTERING JUSTICE, CENTERING EQUITY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY HEADWAY.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SHIFT THE CULTURE OF THE ORGANIZATION AND YOU'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO HAVE TO GET RID OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO SHIFT THE CULTURE OF THE ORGANIZATION.

I THINK THIS IS ROOTED IN OVERFOCUS ON DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION THROUGH THE CORPORATE LENS AND UNDERFOCUSING ON THE ISSUES OF EQUITY AND JUSTICE.

>> Crossley: CECIL.

>> I WILL ALSO SAY ON A SMALLER SCAILT FOR MS. JABREW FOR EXAMPLE, THERE IS A LOT OF COST MENTALLY TO ALL OF THAT.

IF THERE HAS TO BE SO MUCH TIME AND ATTENTION PAID TO PROVING LIKE HOLDING UP TO THE LIGHT THAT THIS IS A RACIST PRACTICE OR THIS IS NOT A GOOD FIT FOR LIKE HAVING -- LIKE A GOOD TEAM, THAT'SSA WILD AMOUNT OF ENERGY SPENT, NOT SPENT CREATIVELY ON DEVELOPING PRODUCTS OR CONNECTING WITH CUSTOMERS OR OTHER THINGS, OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES, OF AN ORGANIZATION.

AND IN THE OTHER SIDE OF IT -- FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF IT OF COURSE WE HAVE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE THE CULTURAL MAKERS OF AN ORGANIZATION.

AND IT MAY BE THAT STEPPING OUT OF ONE'S COMFORT ZONE, DEVELOPING SOMETHING NEW, ACKNOWLEDGING PAST CRITICISMS OR PAST INCONGRUENCES, PERHAPS, OUR BRAINS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR THAT AMOUNT OF CHANGE AND WE DO OUR BEST TO FEND AGAINST THOSE THINGS.

SO IT MIGHT BE THAT WE DENY THERE'S A PROBLEM.

IT MIGHT BE THAT WE BLAME THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE ACTUALLY BROUGHT IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THESE ARE ORDINARY PSYCHOLOGICAL PROCESSES THAT ARE UNDER STRESS WITH MANY OF THESE ORGANIZATIONS ARE.

>> Crossley: YOU RAISED STATISTICS THE THAT'S A LITTLE STARTLING THAT IN ORDER TO GET TO SOME EQUITY THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE ABOUT A 40% INCREASE IN HIRING OF PEOPLE OF COLOR, THAT IS STARTING NOW.

TALK ABOUT THAT IF YOU WILL.

>> YEAH, SO WHAT THAT NUMBER REPRESENTS IS THAT IN ORDER TO CLOSE THE WAGE GAP AND EMPLOYMENT GAP, IN ORDER TO CLOSE THE EMPLOYMENT GAP JUST BETWEEN -- THAT PARTICULAR NUMBER WAS JUST BETWEEN THE POPULATION AS A WHOLE AND THE BLACK POPULATION.

COMPANIES WOULD NEED FOR BETWEEN 40 AND 50% OF ALL OF THEIR NEW HIRES TO BE PEOPLE OF COLOR.

AND OVER A TWO, THREE YEAR PERIOD IN ORDER TO CLOSE THAT GAP.

SO IT'S A -- IT'S -- IT HIGHLIGHTS HOW THE SYSTEMS NEED TO CHANGE.

HOW WHEN COMPANIES ARE PUTTING IN PLACE THEIR POLICIES FOR RECRUITMENT AND OUTREACH HOW THEY NEED TO ADAPT IN ORDER TO TAP THESE MARKETS WHERE THEY CAN FIND THAT POOL OF TALENT TO BRING IN, AT THAT LEVEL, AT THAT NUMBER.

IT MEANS THINKING DIFFERENTLY ABOUT THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU'RE ASKING IN YOUR INTAKE PROCESS.

IT MEANS BEING VERY DELIBERATE AND INTENTIONAL, AND WEEDING OUT BIASES, AND BEING HONEST WITH YOURSELF AND WITH YOUR ORGANIZATION, AND HOLDING YOURSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO THAT.

WHICH LEADS THEN TO WHAT I THINK DR. WEBSTER WAS DISCUSSING.

THAT THIS IS REALLY HARD, THIS DOESN'T COME NATURALLY.

IT'S NOT HOW OUR BRAINS WORK TO LOOK AT A COLLEAGUE, LOOK AT THEIR EVALUATION METRICS OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS AND CONCLUDE THAT THIS PERSON HAS BIASES.

NDERS AND THEN TO ACT ACCORDINGLY.

THAT'S HARD.

BUT THAT'S ULTIMATELY WHAT LEADERSHIP IS ALL ABOUT.

AND ORGANIZATIONS AND THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY IN PARTICULAR PARTICULAR, HAS TIME AND TIME AGAIN LOOKED AT PROCESSES AND SYSTEMS THAT AREN'T WORKING AND HAS DISRUPTED THOSE SYSTEMS IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE BETTER RESULTS.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS MOMENT CALLS FOR.

AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT I ACTUALLY HAVE A LOT OF CONFIDENCE IN, THAT COMPANIES, WHEN THEY HAVE SENIOR LEADERSHIP THAT IS BOUGHT IN, WHEN THEY HAVE THE RIGOR TO ASSESS WITHOUT BIAS THEIR POLICIES AND THEIR PRACTICES, AND WHEN THEY HAVE THE COMMITMENT AND THE PERSEVERANCE TO DO THE HARD WORK THAT THERE'S A PATH FORWARD FOR THEM TO SUCCEED.

>> Crossley: YASMIN YOU'VE WORKED IN GOVERNMENT AND IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

HOW DO YOU THINK ARE, ARE WE MAKING A TURN, A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE IMPACT OF CULTURAL FIT BOTH POSITIVELY AND NEGATIVELY, WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT AT THIS MOMENT?

>> YEAH SO IN THE SEAT WHERE I SIT NOW IN VENTURE CAPITAL WE HAVE A FELLOWSHIP AND WE HAVE VISIBLE HANDS AND WE HAVE NEARLY 700 APPLICANTS TO OUR FELLOWSHIP.

AND IT IS A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE LEECHING THIS TRACK.

WHERE IF I'M NOT GOING TO BE GIVEN A SEAT AT THE TABLE I'M GOING TO MAKE MY OWN AND AT NBC WE WANT PEOPLE TO START THEIR ON COMPANIES WHERE THEY CAN FOR THEMSELVES DECIDE WHAT THEIR CULTURE, WHAT THEIR EVALUATION PROCESSES LOOK LIKE.

FOR ME I YOU FIND EXCLUSIVELY DIVERSE UNDERREPRESENTED FOUNDERS AND FOR THEM, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE EXHAUSTED PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND EMOTIONALLY.

AND WANT TO FOCUS ON DOING THE WORK.

AND I THINK MY ORGANIZATION IS A CLEAR EXAMPLE, WHEN WE HAVE NEARLY 700 PEOPLE IN THREE WEEKS APPLY FOR AN OPPORTUNITY TO START THEIR OWN FIRM.

>> Crossley: SO THIS IS LIKELY THE -- SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT CULTURAL FIT IS NOT GOING AWAY.

AS AN ISSUE IN THIS MOMENT ANYWAY.

THAT THERE'S A LOT OF WORK TO BE DOING TO GET FROM WHERE YOU ARE TO WHERE PRATT WOULD HOPE THAT SENIOR LEADERSHIP IS GOING.

>> RIGHT.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ABOUT TRANSFORMATION, WHERE YOU CAN BUILD SOMETHING FROM SCRATCH, LIKE THAT HAS DIVERSITY THAT IS NOT AN ADD-ON.

YOU KNOW, AS PRATT MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, INCLUSION IMPROVES INNOVATION.

AND I THINK THERE'S A PATHWAY WHERE CERTAINLY THERE NEEDS TO BE LEADERS IN THE CORPORATE SECTORS THAT ARE FURTHER ALONG.

THERE IS A FULL CONTINUUM.

BUT I DO THINK THAT THERE IS THIS NEW BURGEONING EMERGING CLASS OF FOUNDERS WHO ARE READY TO CREATE SOMETHING FOR THEMSELVES.

YOU KNOW, WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORK ON TRANSFORMATION OF EXISTING ORGANIZATIONS.

>> Crossley: THEY MAKE THEIR OWN FIT.

WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

I THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING ME.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org