Hello, I'm Catherine Anaya, and welcome to Horizonte.

Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, or DACA Recipients must regularly renew their protections and work authorization, but some are waiting longer than usual for the U.S.

Citizenship and Immigration Services to process that paperwork.

And when a work permit expires while that renewal is still pending, it leaves a lot of uncertainty.

According to USA Facts, Arizona is home to between 16 and 20,000 DACA recipients.

The government's delays in the renewal process has many dreamers stressed and in fear about losing their jobs, paying bills and groceries and in some the threat of being deported.

So what is behind this delay?

And what are dreamers supposed to do while they wait?

Joining me to talk more about this are Reyna Montoya.

She is the founder and CEO of Aliento.

That's an advocacy organization serving students, dreamers and immigrant families.

And Delia Salvatierra, an immigration attorney with the Salvatierra Law Group.

Welcome, ladies.

Always good to see you.

Likewise, thank you.

Good to see So let's get right into it.

I want to start with you Delia.

How do you begin to explain the depth of what is happening right now?

I guess to the average American, this is not what they see on a daily basis.

This is not a large portion of the segment of the population in Arizona, but it is a large segment of the population that is immigrant working and contributing to the community.

And these individuals, once their DACA expires and they're not renewed timely by USCIS, they lose their ability to drive into work So the collateral consequences of a delayed DACA renewal process means that they could you know, they're not going to be able to work.

Employers have to protect themselves as well.

And they're going to follow E-Verify.

They don't want to get in trouble.

And so they're going to have to, you know, let that person go.

But in and of itself and that person can't drive.

That person can take their kids to school.

They can't function in the society.

That is a terrible way to live every two years, especially since this program has been in place since 2012, these kids have been renewing and being vetted every two years.

And if at this juncture they're getting delayed, It is a sign that the administration has never had any faith in the DACA program.

And now we're talking about thousands of people who are not only living with this uncertainty, but there's also that fear of potentially being deported.

And, Reyna, you've written a lot about this recently.

You've said the uncertainty righ is about more than just paperwork.

Can you describe for us, because you do work with immigrant families, you know what that sense of fear means for their daily lives?

I think that like any fear, it s a very differently in every human being.

I'm a DACA recipient myself, so I don't have to imagine or have to rely on the conversations that I have with a lot of DACA recipients.

I work predominantly with children and youth.

So then now the young people that I serve are actually the children of DACA recipients.

We have a fellow who is in who's in college whose mom is a DACA recipient.

So he still also has that fear of waking up and not knowing if mom is going to be here because then DACA, might lapse.

For a lot of individuals, when their parents, they're always trying to shelter their k from their pain, from the uncertainty.

So they put a good face and they they go to work and they try to do the best that they can.

But the way that I like to describe it is like you're constantly having this dark cloud on top of your on top of your head that you don't know when the monsoon is going to hit and how hard is going to be.

And that uncertainty translates sometimes in depression into anxiety, into not knowing what the future holds.

That is not only going to impact your ability to work, your ability to protect your children, and your ability to belong in the place that you have called home since you were a kid.

You are in this state of constant survival.

So, Delia, what exactly is causing these delays?

And what do you tell DACA recipients about what they're supposed to do?

I think that is the critical issue, because these kids are kids that have trusted the process.

They've done exactly what they were told to do, which is to trust the system, trust the process, provide their information, and that they would be given an opportunity to renew DACA in two year increments.

I'm telling clients pragmatically that they have to renew six months ahead of time.

Number two, we have to review the application and make sure that, you know, there are no inconsistencies.

And we need to also tell them that they need to brace themselves for a possible lapse in their ability to drive and their ability to to work.

That obviously is it's like taking the rug out from under them.

But the consequence of that is also, if they drive out of necessity to take a child's school to work etc., they could get arrested for havi driving without a driver's license.

And if ICE is called, which is now typically what is happening to the side of an arrest, then that DACA individual is going to be arrested and placed in removal proceedings.

Now that is what is inconsistent as a consequence for DACAs, because on the one hand, the very agency DHS who says that they are not a priority for removal and they've been granted deferred action.

On the other hand, the sister agency ICE, under the same branch of DHS, is saying in court that DACA is is a collateral relief and has nothing to do with their status in the United States, and that they are nonetheless removable from the United States And if they don't have a way to stay in the country, then they're walking around with a target on their back with a final order of removal.

That is the fear that is landing as a reality for all of our DACA recipients, that they fear that administrative hiccup or administrative delay is going to land them in a detention center with no real avenue to defend themselves.

Well, and we know the trickle down effect from that because it's not just affecting that person in particular, but the entire family in most cases.

But going back to the heart of this, what is causing the delays?

You know, it's very hard for me as a lawyer as a, as an American and as a patriotic American to say that the delay is purposeful.

The delay is DACA is not a benefit created by Congress.

It is a administrative benefit created by an administration that the current administration does not agree with and will not honor what was said in that agreement, despite numerous court proceedings.

So these people, these DACA kids have been vetted since 2012.

There's nothing new that the government is going to find.

There's nothing new and there's no reason to delay them other than a purposeful mechanism to instill fear, instill uncertainty, give people an incentive to leave the United States to unravel and destabilize the communities and the ideas that they've made, that they belong here.

It's unfortunate because my country has never acted that way and has never done one thing wit one hand and done something with the other in this manner.

And it is tragic.

It is.

I see it, and I wish that I wouldn't have to call it as purposeful behavior, but it it is in sync with everything else, not just in the, in the DACA context, but in the entire immigration context.

It's do something.

See if it works.

We don't it doesn't matter if it's legal or not.

And if it's not, then the court will tell us and we'll stop and we'll do something else.

But that is the shotgun approach by this administration.

Well, we've talked about the implications of that, the consequences of that when it comes to upending everyday lives and the fear and the uncertainty, the anxiety, what about how it affects our economy?

Because that doesn't just affect one community that affects everybody.

So think about it, right?

We have 20,000 people here in the state of Arizona.

And out of the sudden they don't have their ability to work.

Many of them are working in a lot of the social sector.

So we're talking about our nurse that we already have a shortage in nurses.

We're talking about our K-12 educators.

We also have a shortage in teachers.

So I think that this is something that is not only impacting the DACA recipients, their families, but it's impacting their communities.

I'm going to put it plain and simple.

I'm a DACA recipient.

I run a nonprofit organization.

I employ American citizens.

So if my ability to not continue to do that work, it's not it's going to have a ripple right, in the ability of my employers, who are U.S.

citizens to be able to continue to do their work as usual.

It's going to cause some disruptions.

So I think that this is the factor that I think many people are not thinking about it.

And we're going to be losing billions with a big “B” in Arizona and in the United States in state and local taxes, because we are of prime working age.

So it's not only the direct economy impact, but it's also the ripple effect of the economy as consumers and as people that have mortgages and cards to to pay.

I want to note you're so well-sp that I do want to remind people that you are a regular contributor for the viewpoint section of The Arizona Republic, and you wrote phenomenal pieces recently, but one in particular, you said, for children of immigrants, deportation is never just about immigration Can you just explain the complexity of that?

It's so heartbreaking.

It is.

I don't have to imagine, Catherine.

Sadly, I lived it, and I was remembering with with Delia.

I was only 21 when my dad got detained, and thankfully, now he's reunited with our family.

But for nine months, we couldn't celebrate birthdays.

We couldn't celebrate Christmases or Thanksgiving.

That that was really important for us and for me as a kid who's who came here as a as a kid, as an immigrant, you always have a little part in you that even though that you get up every day and you pledge allegiance to this country and you recited in the classroom you have a little part in you that you feel that you don't fully belong, because people have been telling you that this is not your country, even though that you love this country.

But then one of the most difficult things that I had to do in my life was to see my five year old sister at the age of five, which is born here.

She's American, and I had to break it down.

Why dad couldn't come home.

Right.

And how do you tell a five year old that and theres been lot of thankfully, my family has taken and were reunited.

But those wounds, she's still healing many years later.

Yeah, it's it's very deep.

It's it's it is complex, but it's also humanity.

And I thank you for sharing real quickly.

Before we go.

I'd like to ask you, Delia, like what is the hope you hang on to because you are immersed in all right now?

You know, there's a there's a poem by Pablo Neruda who says they can cut the flowers, but they can't stop the spring from coming.

And so it's turning a new leaf.

It's a new day.

But the goal of this administration is to eradicate that hope for any new America.

And we show up every day.

This is a community who loves immigrants, love this country.

They are resilient.

Reyna and her family are evidence of that.

And this is being on the right side of history.

This is this is the right side of history of supporting people who contribute, contribute to this country and live among us.

And there's no other work that I would rather be doing in this moment in my life than the one I am doing right now.

Thank you both for joining me to share your perspectives.

It's very important for us to to know them, to hear them and to share them.

So thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

Good to see you both.

And we will continue having conversations like these because they are important and they matter to you.

I'm Catherine Anaya, thank you for watching.