REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO I'M LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS DAN FLORES, HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>DAN: THANK YOU LORENE, IT'S A GREAT PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>>LORENE: IT IS, IT'S A GREAT PLEASURE FOR ME TO HAVE READ YOUR LATEST BOOK, IT IS CALLED WILD NEW WORLD: THE EPIC STORY OF ANIMALS AND PEOPLE IN AMERICA .

AND IT IS AN EPIC, IT IS A BIG HISTORY OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MAN AND ANIMALS IN NORTH AMERICA.

>>DAN: WELL IT IS, I TRIED TO, IN UNDER 400 PAGES, FEWER THAN 400 PAGES, DO A NARRATIVE OF THE ENTIRE STORY FROM THE CREATION OF AMERICA'S BESTIARIES THROUGH THE COMING OF ALL THESE DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE INTERACTED WITH ANIMALS HERE, SO, YES, IT IS A BIG SWEEP.

>>LORENE: IT IS A HUGE SWEEP AND THEY DO CALL IT BIG HISTORY AND YET IT'S KIND OF AN INTIMATE EPIC BECAUSE YOU HAVE INTIMATE STORIES ABOUT A FEW SPECIES, BISON AND WOLVES AND EVERYTHING THAT THEY HAVE BEEN THROUGH AND THEN HOW THEY WERE TREATED BY THE OLD WORLD, SETTLERS WHO CAME HERE, NOT BY THE NATIVE AMERICANS.

AND THEN WHEN IN THE 70S AFTER SILENT SPRING AND THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT, THEY WERE GIVEN SPACE TO BE, SO... >>DAN: YES, THEY WERE.

THIS IS A BOOK THAT CAN SEEM LIKE AN ELEGY, I THINK, TO SOME READERS BECAUSE A LOT OF IT IS SOMEWHAT DARK.

I TAKE ALL THESE ANIMALS VERY SERIOUSLY AND AS A RESULT SOME OF THEIR STORIES, SOMETIMES, GET A LITTLE BIT DARK, BUT THE BOOK IS AN OPTIMISTIC ONE PRIMARILY BECAUSE OF THE EVENTS YOU DESCRIBE FROM THE 1960S AND 70S WHEN WE KIND OF CAME UP WITH A HAIL MARY IN THE FORM OF THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT IN 1973 TO PRETTY MUCH SAVE WHAT AMERICA HAD LEFT AND OF COURSE WE HAD A GREAT MANY WONDERFUL AND CHARISMATIC CREATURES LEFT BY THAT POINT IN HISTORY.

>>LORENE: SOME HAD CALLED THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT AMERICA'S BEST IDEA AND NEXT YEAR WILL MARK THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY.

>>DAN: YES >>LORENE: THERE WERE MANY STAGES, STEWART UDALL IN 1964, I THINK, HAD ONE VERSION OF THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT AND THEN IT KEPT GETTING TWEAKED A LITTLE BIT BUT THANK GOODNESS, THANK GOODNESS WE HAVE IT.

>>DAN: THANK GOODNESS.

>>LORENE: NOW YOU HOLD A REALLY UNIQUE PLACE.

YOU WERE A PROFESSOR, YOU HELD THE HAMMOND CHAIR IN WESTERN HISTORY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MONTANA IN MISSOULA.

YOU ARE NOW EMERITUS AND YOU'VE WRITTEN ELEVEN BOOKS SO ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD LIKE TO START WITH BECAUSE YOU HAVE SO MANY BOOKS THAT REALLY FOCUS ON NEW MEXICO AND NEW MEXICANS WANT TO KNOW EVERYTHING THEY CAN ABOUT NEW MEXICO, WE WILL TALK MOSTLY ABOUT WILD NEW WORLD.

>>DAN: SURE >>LORENE: SHOW US SOME OF YOUR OTHER BOOKS AND WHAT PEOPLE CAN LEARN ABOUT OTHER ASPECTS OF NEW MEXICO AND ANIMALS AND LIFE.

>>DAN: WELL, I'M A NATIVE OF LOUISIANA, MY FAMILY AND MY DAD'S FAMILY HAD BEEN IN LOUISIANA FOR 8 GENERATIONS BEFORE I CAME ALONG, EARLY 1700S.

WE HAD ANCESTORS, PARTICULARLY ON THE FRENCH SIDE OF THE FAMILY WHO WERE INDIAN TRADERS, TRADERS TO THE NATIVE PEOPLE AND THEY WERE PARTICULARLY COMPELLED BY THE RED RIVER, FOLLOWING THE RED RIVER OUT OF LOUISIANA WESTWARD TOWARDS NEW MEXICO.

SO I GREW UP WITH THIS KIND OF SENSE OF NEW MEXICO AND PARTICULARLY NORTHERN NEW MEXICO, SANTA FE AND TAOS, AS BEING THIS DESTINATION THAT MY FAMILY HAD BEEN POINTED TOWARDS FOR THEIR ENTIRE EXISTENCE, 800 MILES BACK TO THE EAST.

SO THE FIRST BOOK THAT I DID WAS ABOUT MY PLACE, WHERE I GREW UP IN LOUISIANA, BUT IT WAS ABOUT AN EXPEDITION THAT THOMAS JEFFERSON SENT INTO THE WEST AFTER LEWIS AND CLARK TO TRY TO REACH SANTA FE AND NEW MEXICO AND EXPLORE THE SOUTHWEST.

THAT ONE WAS ORIGINALLY CALLED JEFFERSON AND SOUTHWESTERN EXPLORATION BUT THE NEWER EDITION OF IT IS CALLED SOUTHERN COUNTERPART TO LEWIS AND CLARK .

IT'S STILL IN PRINT, STILL AVAILABLE, AND IT'S ABOUT A LITTLE-KNOWN AMERICAN EXPLORING EXPEDITION, THAT ACTUALLY BY THE WAY, WAS STOPPED BY A SPANISH FORCE SENT OUT TO INTERCEPT IT.

SPAIN SENT OUT TWO MAJOR EXPEDITIONS TO TRY TO STOP THIS AMERICAN PROBE TOWARDS THE SOUTHWEST IN 1806.

ONE OF THEM WAS FROM SANTA FE, BUT THE EXPEDITION FROM TEXAS INTERCEPTED THE AMERICANS ON THE RED RIVER IN 1806 SO THEY ONLY GOT ABOUT HALF WAY UP THE RED RIVER BEFORE SPAIN MADE THEM TURN AROUND AND GO BACK.

SO ONE OF THE REASONS NOBODY HAS HEARD OF THIS EXPEDITION IS THAT IT WASN'T A CELEBRATORY THING LIKE LEWIS AND CLARK WAS.

SO THERE'S THAT BOOK, OTHER BOOKS I'VE DONE THAT HAVE A NEW MEXICO FOCUS, THIS ONE, HORIZONTAL YELLOW: NATURE AND HISTORY IN THE NEAR SOUTHWEST IS A BOOK I DID IN ABOUT 2000 AND HORIZONTAL YELLOW, INCIDENTALLY THE TITLE, THOSE TWO ADJECTIVES, I SELECTED AS A TITLE BECAUSE THEY COME OUT OF THE NAVAJO DESCRIPTION, THE DINÉ DESCRIPTION OF THE WESTERN HORIZON.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS A PARTICULARLY APT WAY TO DESCRIBE A LOT OF THE SOUTHWEST, IT'S HORIZONTAL AND MUCH OF THE YEAR IT'S A YELLOW LANDSCAPE.

SO THAT'S KIND OF A NEW MEXICAN STORY, ANOTHER ONE IS THIS BOOK, CAPROCK CANYONLANDS, WHICH IS ABOUT THE CANYONS, ARROYOS AND DRAWS OF THE LLANO ESTACADO COUNTRY OF EASTERN NEW MEXICO AND WEST TEXAS.

THIS IS A 2010, 20TH ANNIVERSARY VERSION OF IT AND THEN THE LAST TWO BOOKS BEFORE THE ONE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

>>LORENE: YES, I LOVE THESE.

>>DAN: AMERICAN SERENGETI: THE LAST BIG ANIMALS OF THE GREAT PLAINS , WHICH I PUBLISHED IN 2016 AND IT'S ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT THE TITLE SUGGESTS.

THEN THE BIGGEST HIT I SUPPOSE I'VE HAD SO FAR, A BOOK THAT BECAME A NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER, IS COYOTE AMERICA: A NATURAL AND SUPERNATURAL HISTORY, WHICH ALSO CAME OUT IN 2016.

>>LORENE: YES, IT'S A WONDERFUL BOOK.

YOU DO GET A PR BADGE FOR THE SPECIES OF COYOTES BECAUSE YOU DO MAKE US UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE SPECIALISTS IN THE ANIMAL KINGDOM AND THERE ARE GENERALISTS AND COYOTES, PARTICULARLY ONCE, WE'LL TALK WHAT HAPPENED TO WOLVES, ONCE THE APEX PREDATOR, WOLVES, WERE DECIMATED, THE COYOTES JUST FILLED IN, THEY HAPPILY TROTTED IN.

>>DAN: THAT'S RIGHT.

COYOTES ARE JUNIOR WOLVES, SO THEY TOOK OVER THE NICHE THAT WOLVES HAD OCCUPIED FOR SO LONG.

>>LORENE: YOU HAVE BEEN COMPARED TO ALDO LEOPOLD, JOHN MUIR, PETER MATTHIESSEN AND OF COURSE, THOREAU, BECAUSE YOU ARE ONE OF THE LEADING NATURALIST WRITERS OF THE WEST.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT MAKES YOU UNCOMFORTABLE, BUT THEY ARE VERY WELL DESERVED.

HISTORIAN ELLIOT WEST CALLED YOU "ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED ENVIRONMENTAL HISTORIANS OF OUR GENERATION."

SO THANK YOU SO MUCH, THERE'S SO MUCH HERE, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO COME BACK ANOTHER TIME AND DO MORE ABOUT WILD NEW WORLD , BUT YOU HAD MENTIONED THAT YOU HAVE SEVERAL BOOKS THAT TALK ABOUT SOME NEW MEXICO THINGS, I WOULD LIKE TO FOCUS ON THREE NEW MEXICO (SITES), HOW WE BUBBLE TO THE HEAP OF ARCHEOLOGY, ANTHROPOLOGY AND ANCIENT HISTORY, TALK ABOUT WHITE SANDS, FOLSOM SITE AND CLOVIS, HOW HAS NEW MEXICO CONTRIBUTED TO THIS EPIC STORY OF MAN AND ANIMAL.

>>DAN: WELL IT'S A WONDERFUL THING, DON'T YOU THINK, THAT THESE GREAT SITES IN NORTH AMERICA ALL SEEM TO CLUSTER RIGHT OFF THE END OF THE SOUTHERN ROCKY MOUNTAINS.

I MEAN THE FOLSOM SITE, WHICH IS ACTUALLY HOW I START WILD NEW WORLD WITH A VISIT TO THE FOLSOM SITE AND A DESCRIPTION OF HOW, BASICALLY A BLACK COWBOY NAME CHARLES MCJUNKIN FOUND THAT SITE IN 1908 AND THEN ABOUT 20 YEARS LATER ARCHEOLOGISTS INVESTIGATING IT REALIZED THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME WE HAD DISCOVERED THE PRESENCE OF HUMANS WITH EXTINCT ANIMALS IN AMERICA.

SO WE PUSHED OUR HISTORY WAY, WAY BACK WITH THE FOLSOM SITE.

>>LORENE: BEFORE WE GO ONTO THE OTHER ONES, IT WASN'T JUST HE SAW SOME BONES AND SOME POINTS, THESE WERE BONES OF THE GIANT BISON, HOW BIG, THE SIZE OF A PICKUP TRUCK, I DON'T KNOW.

BUT HUGE BONES, IT WASN'T YOUR RUN OF THE MILL EVERYDAY BISON, THESE WERE HUGE AND THAT THERE WAS AN ACTUAL POINT TO PROVE THAT HUMANS WERE HUNTING THESE ANIMALS, DEVOURING THEM AND EATING THEM, BUT THE FACT THAT IT WAS HERE AND I CAN ONLY IMAGINE HIM RIDING ALONG SEEING THESE BONES, THAT COULDN'T BELONG TO ANYTHING ON EARTH, PRESENTLY.

>>DAN: I THINK THAT'S WHAT ATTRACTED HIS ATTENTION, MCJUNKIN'S ATTENTION, I MEAN HE HAD COME TO NEW MEXICO FROM TEXAS, HE HAD BEEN IN TEXAS DURING THE TIME OF THE BUFFALO HUNTS, SO HE HAD SEEN MODERN BUFFALO SHOT, BUTCHERED, HE KNEW WHAT THEIR BONES LOOKED LIKE, BUT WHAT HE SAW IN THIS CHASM THAT HAD BEEN OPENED UP BY AN AUGUST FLOOD, BASICALLY, WERE BONES OF A SIZE THAT OF COURSE HE KNEW WAS SOMETHING VERY NEW IN AMERICA AND THAT'S WHY MCJUNKIN MADE SUCH AN EFFORT TO TRY TO GET ARCHEOLOGISTS TO COME OUT AND LOOK AT THAT SITE.

AS YOU INDICATED AFTER TWO SEASONS OF WORK, ONE OF THE THINGS THEY FOUND AND THIS WAS THE STEP THAT YOU HAD TO MAKE, THE EVIDENTIARY STEP YOU HAD TO MAKE, THEY FOUND A FOLSOM POINT EMBEDDED IN THE SPINAL COLUMN OF ONE OF THESE DEAD GIANT BISON.

SO WHAT THEY REALIZED WAS THAT THIS WAS SURE PROOF THAT HUMANS HAD ACTUALLY KILLED THESE ANIMALS WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE.

>>LORENE: AS MUCH AS SOME SAY, 12,000 YEARS AGO.

>>DAN: YES, THIS PARTICULAR SITE, WE DIDN'T HAVE RADIOCARBON DATING AT THE TIME THAT THE ARCHEOLOGISTS WERE INVESTIGATING IT AND ONE OF THE GUESSES THEY MADE WAS THAT THE FOLSOM SITE WAS 450,000 YEARS OLD, BUT WHEN WE FINALLY HAD RADIOCARBON DATING IT ACTUALLY DATED TO 10,500.

SO, IT WAS A VERY OLD SITE AT A TIME WHEN EVERYONE ASSUMED THAT NATIVE PEOPLE HAD GOTTEN TO AMERICAN PERHAPS ONLY 1500 YEARS BEFORE EUROPEANS HAD ARRIVED AND SUDDENLY HERE WE'VE PUSHED THE AMERICAN STORY BACK BY ANOTHER 10,000 YEARS OR SO.

OF COURSE, THAT SIMPLY AWAITED ANOTHER DECADE AND THE DISCOVERY OF THE CLOVIS SITE, ALSO IN NEW MEXICO ON THE TEXAS, NEW MEXICO BORDER AND THAT PARTICULAR SITE WAS A SITE OF AN EVEN OLDER CULTURE THAN FOLSOM, WHICH WE CALLED CLOVIS AND WHICH BASICALLY CONSISTED OF PEOPLE WHO SPECIALIZED IN HUNTING MAMMOTHS AND MASTODONS.

AND SO THE CLOVIS SITE WAS BASICALLY A MAMMOTH HUNTING SITE IN EASTERN NEW MEXICO AND THAT THEN WHEN WE HAD RADIOCARBON DATING PUSHED THE DATES BACK TO MORE THAN 13,000 YEARS WHEN HUMANS HAD BEEN HERE.

>>LORENE: AND THAT SITE IS LITERALLY CALLED BLACKWATER DRAW.

>>DAN: IT'S CALLED BLACKWATER DRAW, IT'S ACTUALLY THE HEADWATER DRAW OF THE BRAZOS RIVER OF TEXAS.

IT COURSES ACROSS THE LLANO ESTACADO AND FINALLY BECOMES THE BRAZOS AND EMPTIES INTO THE GULF OF MEXICO.

SO THE HEADWATERS OF IT WERE WAY OUT IN EASTERN NEW MEXICO.

>>LORENE: THE OTHER SITE THAT I LOVE SO MUCH, NOT SO MUCH FOR BONES, BUT THE HUMAN FOOTPRINTS WERE DISCOVERED IN WHITE SANDS FROM 23,000 YEARS AGO?

>>DAN: 23,000 YEARS AGO, WHICH IS, IT PRECEDES THE LAST GLACIAL MAXIMUM.

THE WISCONSIN ICE AGE HAD ITS GLACIAL MAXIMUM AT ABOUT 21,500 YEARS AGO.

SO THIS SITE IS ACTUALLY OLDER THAN THE GLACIAL MAXIMUM IN NORTH AMERICA.

IT'S A REALLY MARVELOUS SITE WITH FOOTPRINTS, THOSE FEET HAD STEPPED, 23,000 YEARS AGO, HAD STEPPED ON SEEDS OF A PARTICULAR GRASS THAT COULD BE RADIOCARBON DATED, HENCE WE KNOW HOW OLD THOSE FOOTPRINTS ARE.

SO THAT'S A PERIOD WHEN PROBABLY HUMANS WERE GETTING HERE BY FOLLOWING THE COASTLINE OUT OF ASIA ALONG THE NORTH AMERICAN PACIFIC COAST AND AGAIN SORT OF DOING THE SAME THING AND THEY ARE THE FIRST TO DO IT, BUT THEY DID THE SAME THING THAT FOLSOM AND CLOVIS PEOPLE DO, IT'S THE COUNTRY JUST OFF THE SOUTHERN END OF THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS THAT SEEMS TO DRAW THEM.

>>LORENE: WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH DAN FLORES AND CELEBRATING HIS BOOK, WILD NEW WORLD AND THERE IS SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT.

I JUST WANT TO FOCUS ON TWO ANIMALS THAT ARE KIND OF EMBLEMATIC, THERE IS SO MUCH IN THE BOOK AND YOU REALLY TRACE WHAT ANIMALS RISE, DOMINATING THEIR ENVIRONMENT AND OTHER ANIMALIA, AND THE ONES THAT FALL, THEN THE ONES THAT HUMANS THROUGH VANITY OR WHO KNOWS WHAT, KIND OF WIPED OUT ALMOST.

BUT LET'S LOOK AT BISON AND WOLVES.

WHY ARE THE BISON, THE WHOLE HISTORY OF THE BISON IN NORTH AMERICA SO IMPORTANT?

>>DAN: WELL YOU KNOW BISON ARE ALONG WITH BALD EAGLES THEY ARE OUR NATIONAL ANIMALS.

>>LORENE: OUR NATIONAL MAMMAL.

>>DAN: BARACK OBAMA SO DESIGNATED THE AMERICAN BISON IN 2016, SO IT'S OUR NATIONAL MAMMAL.

IT'S OUR NATIONAL MAMMAL BECAUSE OF THE ROLE THIS CREATURE PLAYED IN NORTH AMERICAN HISTORY AND NOT JUST IN THE LAST 400 OR 500 YEARS OF AMERICAN HISTORY, BUT IN THE DEEP TIME HISTORY OF THE CONTINENT.

BISON ACTUALLY DID NOT EVOLVE IN NORTH AMERICA, UNLIKE OTHER ANIMALS THAT WOULD SURPRISE PEOPLE THAT ARE AMERICAN, INDIGENOUS NATIVE CREATURES, CAMELS FOR EXAMPLE, HORSES, BOTH EVOLVED IN NORTH AMERICA AND THEN STRANGELY ENOUGH AFTER THEY HAD SPREAD TO THE REST OF THE WORLD THEY BECAME EXTINCT HERE.

BUT BISON ARE CREATURES THAT CAME FROM OUT OF SOUTHEAST ASIA, I MEAN ONE OF THE THINGS I DO WITH WILD NEW WORLD , IS USE THE LATEST GNOMIC SCIENCE THAT WE HAVE TO TRY TO TELL THE MOST UP TO DATE STORY OF THEM AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT POINTS TO IS BISON ARE FAIRLY LATE ARRIVALS.

WE THINK MAYBE THEY DIDN'T GET TO NORTH AMERICA AT THE EARLIEST UNTIL ABOUT 400,000 YEARS AGO AND MAYBE AS RECENTLY AS 250,000 YEARS AGO.

SO COMPARED TO HORSES THAT HAVE BEEN HERE FOR 56 MILLION YEARS, BISON WERE REALLY LATE, BUT THEY CAME AT A TIME WHEN AMERICA WAS ABOUT TO UNDERGO A GREAT TRANSFORMATION OF WHAT IS CALLED THE PLEISTOCENE EXTINCTIONS WHEN A LOT OF THE GRAND CHARISMATIC ANIMALS DISAPPEAR, MAMMOTHS FOR EXAMPLE ARE GOING TO DISAPPEAR AND BISON ARE IN THIS ADVANTAGEOUS SITUATION WHERE WHEN THE OTHER GRAZING COMPETITION IS GONE THEY ARE ABLE TO STEP INTO THE GRAZING NICHE AND UNDERGO AN ENORMOUS ECOLOGICAL RELEASE, A POPULATION EXPLOSION WHICH IS WHY THERE ARE 25-30 MILLION OF THEM, I MEAN THAT'S A VERY UNUSUAL NUMBER OF ANIMALS OF ANY PARTICULAR ONE SPECIES.

AND BISON WERE SORT OF ON THE SCENE AT EXACTLY THE RIGHT TIME.

>>LORENE: SO, THEY WERE ALMOST WIPED OUT AND THERE WERE GREAT EFFORTS TO RESTORE THEM BUT TALK TO ME ABOUT THE PERSON WHO SAID "ASK THE BUFFALO IF THEY WANT TO COME BACK."

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT REINSTATING, REINTRODUCING, SAVING THE BISON AS A SPECIES AND WHAT THE RESPONSE FROM THE BISON SPOKESPERSON WAS TO THAT QUESTION.

>>DAN: YES, YOU'RE REFERRING TO A FELLOW NAMED FRED DUBRAY WHO IS A CHEYANNE RIVER LAKOTA WHO I HAD DINNER WITH A COUPLE OF DECADES AGO AND TOLD ME THIS WONDERFUL STORY.

SO I'LL PRECEDE THAT STORY BY SIMPLY SAYING THAT BUFFALO WERE HUGELY NUMEROUS AND AS EVERYONE KNOWS DWINDLED DOWN, WERE SLAUGHTERED DOWN TO FEWER THAN A THOUSAND ANIMALS IN THE 1880S.

FROM AS MANY AS 30 MILLION DOWN TO FEWER THAN A THOUSAND OF THEM.

THEY HAD LASTED THROUGHOUT THE 10,000-YEAR PERIOD OF NATIVE AMERICA THAT FOLLOWED THE PLEISTOCENE UNDIMINISHED AND IN FACT WERE THE ANIMAL THAT PROBABLY COMPRISED THE LONGEST ECONOMIC LIFEWAY OF ANY ANIMAL IN AMERICA BECAUSE NATIVE PEOPLE HUNTED THEM FOR AT LEAST 8,000 YEARS.

BUT WHEN EUROPEANS ARRIVED WITH THE IDEA, TWO BASIC IDEAS, ONE THAT HUMANS ARE EXCEPTIONAL, WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WITH SOULS AND ALL OTHER ANIMALS ARE SIMPLY MADE FOR OUR USE AND THEIR OTHER IDEA THAT OLD WORLDERS BROUGHT WAS THE NOTION LIKE FORESTS, LIKE GRASSLANDS, LIKE MINERALS, GOLD AND SILVER, WILD ANIMALS WERE SIMPLY NATURAL RESOURCES.

>>LORENE: YES, THEY COMMODIFIED THEM.

>>DAN: THEY COMMODIFIED THEM INTO RESOURCES WHICH MEANT THAT FOR THE SAKE OF THE GLOBAL MARKET YOU COULD SLAUGHTER THEM FOR THEIR PARTS.

BEAVERS FOR EXAMPLE FOR THEIR PELTS AND BUFFALO ULTIMATELY FOR THEIR HIDES BECAUSE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 19TH CENTURY WE, EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES, HAD INVENTED A NEW LEATHER MAKING TECHNOLOGY THAT NEEDED DURABLE, ELASTIC LEATHER TO RUN THE MACHINES OF THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION AND BISON HIDES PROVIDED THAT.

SO BISON WERE ESSENTIALLY LIKE PASSENGER PIGEONS, LIKE A WHOLE HOST, LIKE GREAT OX, MANY OTHER GREAT SPECIES, THAT WE LOST COMPLETELY, THAT BECAME EXTINCT.

BISON WERE SLAUGHTERED AS A MARKET COMMODITY TO THE POINT WHERE THERE WERE VIRTUALLY NONE OF THEM LEFT.

THEN WE STARTED TRYING TO BRING THEM BACK AND WHAT'S KIND OF INTERESTING ABOUT THAT STORY IS THAT AMERICANS LIKE WILLIAM TEMPLE HORNADAY, IN THE ERA OF TEDDY ROOSEVELT, WHO WANTED TO BRING BISON BACK AND CREATE A NATIONAL BISON REFUGES ONLY IMAGINED BISON BEING CREATURES OF THE FUTURE OF OUR TIME BY PUTTING THEM ON REFUGES AND IN PARKS, NOT AS WILD ANIMALS.

SO THE STORY YOU ALLUDED TO WAS A RESULT OF MY CONVERSATION WITH ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE INTERTRIBAL BISON COOPERATIVE, IT WAS CALLED THEN, NOW IS CALLED THE COUNCIL, THAT WAS BRINGING BUFFALO BACK TO INDIAN RESERVATIONS TO NATIVE LANDS WITH THE IDEA AS HE TOLD ME OF MAKING THEM SOMETHING ELSE THAN SIMPLY CAPTIVE ANIMALS IN A PARK.

AND SO I ELICITED FROM FRED DUBRAY THIS STORY WHEN WE HAD DINNER ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO.

I SAID, FRED, HOW DID YOU COME TO THE DECISION TO BRING BUFFALO BACK.

HE SAID, WELL I'LL TELL YOU THE TRUTH, WHEN WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT IT ON THE WESTERN RES, ON THE CHEYANNE RIVER RES, AN ELDERLY LAKOTA WOMAN CAME TO THIS GROUP OF YOUNG MEN WHO WANTED TO DO THIS AND SAID BEFORE YOU TRY TO BRING THE BUFFALO BACK, BEST YOU DO A CEREMONY AND ASK THEM IF THEY WANT TO COME BACK.

SO HE PAUSED AND TOOK A COUPLE OF BITES OF HIS MEAL AND I WAS SITTING THERE ON PINS AND NEEDLES SO DID YOU DO THE CEREMONY, HE SAID, YES WE DID.

THEN HE TOOK ANOTHER BITE AND I SAID, SO FRED, PLEASE TELL ME WHAT DID THE BUFFALO SAY AND HE SAID WELL, THE BUFFALO SAID THEY WANT TO COME BACK, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO COME BACK AS COWS OR AS ANIMALS INSIDE REFUGES, PENS AND PARKS.

THEY WANT TO COME BACK AS WILD ANIMALS.

SO THAT'S THE CAMPAIGN HERE IN THE 21ST CENTURY TO TRY TO GET BISON BACK AS WILD CREATURES IN AMERICA, THE WAY THEY ALWAYS WERE.

>>LORENE: THAT IS A WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL STORY.

WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THE WOLVES VERY, VERY QUICKLY AND THEN WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT, HOW THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING.

YOU HAVE TO PROMISE TO COME BACK.

WOLVES, LET'S GIVE THEM... >>DAN: WOLVES ARE ANOTHER NATIVE AMERICAN ANIMAL.

THE CANIDAE FAMILY EVOLVED IN NORTH AMERICA ABOUT 5.3 MILLION YEARS AGO.

IT SUPPLIED THE JACKALS AND THE WOLVES AND THE COYOTES OF THE WORLD.

COYOTES, OF COURSE, NEVER LEAVING, STAYING HERE.

BUT WOLVES SPREAD OUT OF NORTH AMERICA ALL OVER MOST OF THE GLOBE, JACKALS ENDED UP SPREADING TO AFRICA, AND IN EUROPE, THE MIDDLE EAST.

THE WOLF STORY THEN IS A VERY OLD AMERICAN STORY AND AS A KEYSTONE PREDATOR, THOSE ANIMALS SHAPED AMERICAN ECOLOGIES FOR FIVE MILLION YEARS.

WHAT WAS SO TRAGIC ABOUT THAT IS THAT NATIVE PEOPLE WHO AFTER ALL DIDN'T HAVE MANY DOMESTICATED ANIMALS, THEY HAD TURKEYS AND THEY HAD DOGS, THEY DIDN'T DOMESTICATE PRONGHORN OR BIG HORN SHEEP, SO THEY WERE NOT INTERESTED OR WORRIED ABOUT PREDATORS.

OLD WORLDERS THOUGH HAD BEGUN DOMESTICATING SHEEP AND GOATS AND CATTLE, 7-8 THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE AND WHEN THEY CAME TO AMERICA WITH THE HERDING CULTURE IN THEIR HEADS WHERE PREDATORS ARE THE ENEMY, THE VERY FIRST THING THEY DO WHEN THEY GET TO AMERICA, THE FIRST ENVIRONMENTAL LAW EVER PASSED IN AMERICAN HISTORY IS A BOUNTY ON WOLVES.

I MEAN PEOPLE LIKE THE BRITS, FOR EXAMPLE HADN'T HAD WOLVES IN UNITED KINGDOM FOR 300 YEARS AND SO THEY ARE JUST, THEY ARE REALLY TROUBLED BY THE IDEA THERE ARE WOLVES.

THAT STARTS THIS CAMPAIGN WHICH I DESCRIBED ALMOST CENTURY BY CENTURY IN THE BOOK INCLUDING UP TO THE PRESENT OF THIS KIND OF UNTHINKING, ALMOST KNEEJERK RESPONSE OF TRYING TO ELIMINATE WOLVES, MOUNTAIN LIONS, EVERY PREDATOR IN SIGHT.

>>LORENE: WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO, BECAUSE THE WOLF DESERVES MORE TIME IS HAVE A SECOND PART THAT GOES ON MORE ABOUT THE WOLVES, BECAUSE IT'S A WONDERFUL STORY.

BUT I DO WANT TO LEAVE THIS FIRST SECTION OF THE SHOW WITH WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT AND WE HAVE TWO MINUTES LEFT, SILENT SPRING , THE CHANGES THAT CAME ABOUT IN THE 50S AND 60S, STEWART UDALL, ALL OF THESE THINGS AND THEN WE'LL START AGAIN WITH WOLVES AND CONTINUE THAT.

SOME SAY THE BEST AMERICAN IDEA WE EVER HAD WAS... >>DAN: I CERTAINLY ARGUE THAT IN WILD NEW WORLD , THAT THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT OF 1973, 50 YEARS OLD THIS YEAR, BY THE WAY, IS PROBABLY THE BEST IDEA THAT AMERICA HAS EVER COME UP WITH.

IT HAS A SOMEWHAT LONG STORY AS YOU SUGGESTED IT COMES OUT OF THIS ECOLOGICAL AWARENESS OF THE 1960S AND 1970S WHEN SILENT SPRING IS A BLOCKBUSTER BOOK, RACHEL CARSON'S GREAT EXPOSE ON THE USE OF POISONS TO KILL INSECTS THAT ARE DESTROYING BIRDS AND OTHER AMERICAN WILDLIFE, STEWART UDALL AS SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR SORT OF DOING THE PRELIMINARY WORK TO PUT TOGETHER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST AND THEN IN 1973 THIS GREAT ACT, WHICH IS REALLY OUR HAIL MARY ACT TO TRY TO SAVE ALL THESE CREATURES THAT ARE THREATENED AND ENDANGERED, MANY OF WHICH WE HAVE ALREADY LOST.

WE'VE LOST OUR NATIVE PARROTS, WE'VE LOST OUR MOST NUMEROUS BIRDS, PASSENGER PIGEONS, BUT WE STILL HAVE A CHANCE TO SAVE THINGS AND WE DO SO BASED ON THE PREMISE THAT EVERY SPECIES HAS ONE SIMPLE RIGHT, THE RIGHT TO EXIST.

>>LORENE: AND WE ARE GOING TO LEAVE IT THERE AND GO TO PART 2 IN A MINUTE.

THAT IS OUR HAIL MARY PASS AND IT IS REALLY TO BE CELEBRATED BECAUSE NOW WE HAVE SAVED AND REINTRODUCED AND RESTORED SO MUCH.

BUT WE'LL CONTINUE THAT IN PART 2 OF THE SHOW.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS DAN FLORES AND THIS BOOK WILD NEW WORLD, AN EPIC STORY ABOUT ANIMALS AND HUMANS IN NORTH AMERICA .

IT IS A BRILLIANT BOOK, THANK YOU FOR COMING TODAY.

>>DAN: THANK YOU LORENE.

>>LORENE: AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM