REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

OUR GUEST TODAY IS DAN FLORES AUTHOR OF WILD NEW WORLD: THE EPIC STORY OF ANIMALS AND PEOPLE IN NORTH AMERICA , IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY READ.

SO, THERE IS SO MUCH IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF ANIMALS AND PEOPLE ON THE PLANET THAT I HAVE ASKED YOU BACK TO DO A SECOND PART.

IN THE FIRST PART WE TALKED ABOUT THE BISON, WHICH ARE AN EMBLEMATIC SPECIES IN NORTH AMERICA, THEY REPRESENT SO MUCH AND WE WERE JUST LAUNCHING INTO WOLVES, WHICH ARE ANOTHER EMBLEMATIC SPECIES BUT NOT AS POPULAR AS THE BISON HAVE BEEN.

AND WE HAD A LOT OF INS AND OUTS AND BUMPS IN THE ROAD AND TRAGEDIES IN HOW WOLVES HAVE BEEN PERCEIVED AND TREATED, SO IF YOU DON'T MIND, WELCOME BACK.

YOU HAVE SOME OTHER WONDERFUL BOOKS, I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION, AMERICAN SERENGETI WHERE YOU LOOK AT ALL THE MAMMALS, HOLD THAT UP FOR JUST A MINUTE, THE ANIMALS ON THE GREAT PLAINS AND WOLVES AND BISON.

AND THEN ONE OF MY FAVORITES IS COYOTE AMERICA , WHICH TRACES THE HISTORY, THE DEVELOPMENT AND EXPANSE OF COYOTES IN AMERICA, IT'S A REALLY WONDERFUL READ.

>>DAN: YES, OUR UNOFFICIAL STATE ANIMAL I WOULD SAY.

>>LORENE: OUR UNOFFICIAL STATE ANIMAL, YES.

BUT LET'S HIT WOLVES, LET'S HEAR IT ABOUT WOLVES.

>>DAN: WELL WOLVES ARE ONE OF THE INDIGENOUS SPECIES OF NORTH AMERICA THE CANIDAE FAMILY, COMES OUT OF NORTH AMERICAN EVOLUTION ABOUT FIVE MILLION YEARS AGO.

SO ALL THE CANIDAES, ALL THE WOLVES OF THE WORLD, ESSENTIALLY, COMES FROM NORTH AMERICAN ORIGINS.

AND BY BEING HERE FOR FIVE MILLION YEARS AND HOWLING, I WOULD SAY THE ORIGINAL AMERICAN NATIONAL ANTHEM, FOR FIVE MILLION YEARS, WOLVES HAVE PLAYED AN EXTRAORDINARY ROLE IN SHAPING AMERICAN ECOLOGIES.

THEY ARE A KEYSTONE PREDATOR ON TOP OF THESE ECOLOGICAL TROPHIC PYRAMIDS AND THE RESULT OF THAT THAT THERE ARE EFFECT SORT OF FILTERED DOWN THROUGH ALL KINDS OF OTHER SPECIES NOT JUST THE ANIMALS THEY PARTICULARLY PREY ON, BUT I MEAN AS WE ARE REALIZING BY RECOVERING WOLVES IN PLACES LIKE YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK, JASPER AND BANFF NATIONAL PARKS IN CANADA, WHEN YOU RETURN WOLVES TO THE LANDSCAPE IT EVEN CHANGES THE KINDS OF TREES, SHRUBS, AND GRASSES THAT GROW.

HOW STREAMS FLOW.

SO THEY WERE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT BUT PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH THE WOLF STORY IS THAT WHILE WOLVES WHO ARE PRESERVED IN THEIR ORIGINAL NUMBERS BY NATIVE PEOPLE FOR TEN THOUSAND YEARS, AT LEAST IN PART BECAUSE NATIVE PEOPLE WEREN'T HERDERS OF STOCK THAT MADE PREDATORS APPEAR TO BE EVIL.

OLD WORLDERS HAD BEEN DOMESTICATING ANIMALS FOR SEVEN OR EIGHT OR NINE THOUSAND YEARS AND WHEN THEY CAME TO AMERICA FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO, THEY BROUGHT ALL THOSE DOMESTIC ANIMALS WITH THEM.

THEY BROUGHT HOGS AND THEY BROUGHT CATTLE AND SHEEP AND GOATS AND THEY BROUGHT WITH THEM AN OLD-WORLD HERDERS' KIND OF CULTURAL TRADITION THAT PREDATORS ARE THE ENEMY.

I MEAN THEY EVEN...EUROPEANS EVEN WITH THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITION HAD THE NOTION THAT THE WOLF'S ORIGINS LAY IN ADAM'S FALL FROM GRACE IN THE BOOK OF GENESIS, THAT WHEN ADAM WAS EXPELLED FROM THE GARDEN OF EDEN, PART OF WHAT HE CONFRONTED, HE AND HIS PROGENY CONFRONTED, WAS A WORLD WITH PREDATORS AND WOLVES IN IT.

AND SO WOLVES HAD THIS ALMOST KIND OF SATANIC PERSONA FOR EUROPEANS, MANY OF WHOM, YOU HAVE TO ADMIT, HADN'T LIVED AROUND WOLVES FOR THREE OR FOUR CENTURIES, THEY HAD WIPED THEM OUT BY THE THIRTEENTH, FOURTEENTH AND FIFTEENTH HUNDREDS.

BUT THEY GET TO AMERICA AND HERE IS THIS FULSOME POPULATION OF WOLVES, THE VERACIOUS DEVOURER, SOME OF THE EARLIEST COLONISTS CALLED THEM, AND FIRST THING OLD WORLDERS DO IS START TRYING TO WIPE THEM OUT.

AND SO PART OF THE STORY I TELL IN WILD NEW WORLD IS HOW THIS PROJECT CONTINUES THROUGH TIME, THROUGH THE COLONIAL PERIOD INTO THE 19TH CENTURY WHEN WE FINALLY INVENT POISONS LIKE STRYCHNINE AND ARE ABLE TO WHOLESALE POISON WOLVES EVERYWHERE THEY WERE FOUND UNTIL WE FINALLY GET INTO THE 20TH CENTURY WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THE BUREAU BIOLOGICAL SURVEY, WHICH IS THE FORERUNNER OF THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, TAKES UPON ITSELF THE RESPONSIBILITY OF BEING THE WOLF CONTROL AGENCY FOR THE COUNTRY.

AND THEY BEGIN HIRING THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF HUNTERS TO GO OUT AND SPREAD POISON ACROSS THE AMERICAN LANDSCAPE TO TRY TO WIPE WOLVES OUT.

>>LORENE: WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, THEY DIDN'T REALIZE THAT THERE WAS A VERY SEVERE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE, THAT EVERY SCAVENGER ANIMAL THAT ATE ALL THOSE CARCASSES HAD THE STRYCHNINE, HAD THE POISON.

SO RIGHT THEN DOWN THE LINE OF THE CHAIN OF MOP UP DUTY IN THE NATURAL WORLD, THEY WERE ALL EATING EACH OTHER AND DYING TOO.

>>DAN: YES, THEY WERE.

I MEAN THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE WAS ENORMOUS BECAUSE THOSE POISON BAITS THAT YOU PUT OUT AROUND BAIT ANIMALS TO TRY TO KILL WOLVES ENDED UP KILLING FOXES AND COYOTES AND SKUNKS AND RACCOONS AND... >>LORENE: AND EAGLES AND RAVENS AND... >>DAN: YES, MAGPIES, ON AND ON AND ON.

I MEAN SOME OF THE ACCOUNTS AND I DESCRIBE SOME OF THEM IN THE BOOK OF THESE POISONERS, THESE WOLFERS AS THEY'RE CALLED, COMING UP ON THEIR POISON BAITS, IT'S LIKE WITHIN ABOUT A HALF MILE OF THE BAIT ANIMAL THEY BEGIN FINDING DEAD CREATURES ALMOST AS IF SPUN OUT BY A CENTRIFUGE ACROSS THE LANDSCAPE AND OF ALL KINDS OF SPECIES.

OF COURSE, THE ONLY ONES THAT THEY WERE INTERESTED IN ARE THE WOLVES THEMSELVES AND THEY DO AT LEAST STRIP THEIR PELTS AND TRADE THEIR PELTS IN THE PELT MARKETS.

BUT REALLY THE IDEA IS TO TRY TO WIPE THIS SPECIES, ALL THE WOLF SPECIES AND WE HAD FIVE DIFFERENT ONES IN NORTH AMERICA, OFF THE CONTINENT AS RAPIDLY AS POSSIBLE.

>>LORENE: SO THAT WAS THE GREAT DEVOURER, THAT WAS A TARGETED THING, BUT THERE WERE OTHER SPECIES THAT WE ALMOST LOST THAT SERVED HUMAN'S VANITY.

SO, I MEAN EGRET FEATHERS FOR WOMEN'S HATS.

>>DAN: YES.

>>LORENE: WE ALMOST WIPED-OUT EGRETS.

THE BEAVERS, MY GOODNESS, OTTERS, ALLIGATORS, HOW MANY DID WE SUCCEED IN WIPING OUT AND HOW HAS IT BEEN, I KNOW THAT TEDDY ROOSEVELT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO STARTED TO TRY TO RESTORE SOME OF THE ANIMALS EVEN THOUGH WITH THE STATE WILDLIFE AGENCIES HE WAS TRYING TO SET UP, THEY WERE BRINGING BACK SO THEY COULD BE HUNTED, BUT WHO BROUGHT THEM BACK TO RESTORE THEM?

>>DAN: WELL THE STORY IS, OBVIOUSLY A BIG STORY AND I TRY TO PROCEED THROUGH IT, I MEAN THIS BOOK IS A NARRATIVE AND SO IT READS LIKE A STORY OR A SEQUENCE OF STORIES.

I MEAN I AM AN OLD ENGLISH MAJOR AS AN UNDERGRADUATE SO I AM FASCINATED BY STORIES AND PLOTS AND CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT AND ALL OF THAT, WHICH IS HOW I WROTE THE BOOK.

SO READERS ARE GOING TO ENCOUNTER A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS BOOK, NATURALISTS, PEOPLE WHO ENGAGE IN THE WILDLIFE TRADE AND KILL ANIMALS FOR PROFIT AND ALSO, OF COURSE, CONSERVATIONISTS AND ENVIRONMENTALISTS WHO DO THEIR BEST TO SAVE THEM.

BUT THE SHORT VERSION OF THE STORY AFTER OLD WORLDERS ARRIVE HERE, AFTER EUROPEANS ARE HERE, FOR THE LAST FOUR HUNDRED YEARS OR SO FROM THE 1600S TO THE PRESENT, IS THIS AND IT COULD BE SUMMARIZED IN BASICALLY A SENTENCE.

THE UNITED STATES ENGAGED IN THE LARGEST SINGLE, DESTRUCTION OF WILDLIFE DISCOVERABLE ANYWHERE IN MODERN WORLD HISTORY AND WE DID IT LARGELY BECAUSE WE VIEWED WILD ANIMALS AS COMMODITIES AND A MARKET ECONOMY.

AND WITH GOVERNMENTS, STATE GOVERNMENTS UNABLE TO IMPOSE ANY KIND OF RESTRICTIONS OR REGULATIONS ON THE TAKE OF CREATURES AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT COMPLETELY STAYING OUT OF THE GAME UNTIL THE EARLY 1900S, JUST HANDS OFF, LET WHATEVER IS GOING TO HAPPEN, HAPPEN.

WHAT WE DID WAS SORT OF SYSTEMATICALLY SPECIES BY SPECIES PROCEED FROM ONE VERY NUMEROUS GROUP LIKE BEAVERS, WHICH WE THINK THERE WERE PROBABLY SIXTY MILLION WHEN EUROPEANS ARRIVED HERE AND WE ARE KILLING THEM FOR THEIR PELTS IN ORDER TO CONVERT THEIR PELTS INTO HATS AND FUR AND WE BASICALLY HAD WIPED BEAVERS PRACTICALLY OUT IN AMERICA BY THE LATE 1830S AND EARLY 1840S.

AND SO FROM THAT WE PROCEED TO THE NEXT SPECIES THAT SEEMS TO PROVIDE A SIMILAR KIND OF ABUNDANCE AND ONE OF THOSE THAT I WRITE ABOUT HERE ARE SEA OTTERS.

SEA OTTERS ON THE PACIFIC COAST BECOME A TARGET ANIMAL AND LIKE WOLVES, SEA OTTERS ARE PREDATORS, KEYSTONE ANIMALS OF THE KELP FOREST OF THE PACIFIC COASTLINE, THEY EAT SEA URCHINS THAT BASICALLY FEED ON KELP AND SO WHEN THESE FUR HUNTERS STARTED WIPING OUT SEA OTTERS, IT ALLOWS THE URCHIN POPULATION TO EXPLODE, WHICH BEGINS TO DESTROY WHOLE KELP FORESTS OF THE PACIFIC COAST.

BUT ALL THESE KIND OF ECOLOGICAL CONNECTIONS WERE JUST OVER THE HEADS OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DOING THIS PURELY FOR MONEY.

THAT'S ALL THEY WERE INTERESTED IN AND SO THE STORY JUST CONTINUES ON THROUGH THE 19TH CENTURY INTO THE 20TH CENTURY.

PASSENGER PIGEONS BECOME THE NEXT TARGET.

THE MOST NUMEROUS BIRD IN AMERICA, IN FACT WE THINK THE MOST SINGLE SPECIES OF BIRD IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, WE THINK PROBABLY AS MANY AS EIGHT TO TEN BILLION OF THEM.

THEY HAD BEEN HERE FOR FIFTEEN MILLION YEARS AND THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO SURVIVE THREE CENTURIES OF OUR PRESENCE BEFORE WE COMPLETELY WIPE THEM OUT.

I MEAN THAT IS HEROIC DESTRUCTION ON A SCALE THAT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO IMAGINE.

SO I MEAN I DON'T WANT TO CONVEY TO YOUR LISTENERS AND VIEWERS THAT THE BOOK IS SOLELY ABOUT THIS BECAUSE MUCH OF IT IS, OF COURSE, IS ABOUT HOW WE RECOVER FROM ALL OF THIS, BUT I THINK YOU HAVE TO LOOK THE STORY IN THE EYE BECAUSE WE DON'T REALIZE, MOST OF US WHO ARE ALIVE TODAY, THAT WE ARE LIVING IN AN IMPOVERISHED WORLD.

I MEAN WE ALL TEND TO THINK THAT WELL THAT EVERYTHING IS NORMAL, I MEAN BUT I KNOW FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE AND GROWING UP IN LOUISIANA, MY GRANDPARENTS WERE ALIVE WHEN PASSENGER PIGEONS WERE FLYING IN ENORMOUS FLOCKS THROUGH LOUISIANA AND EVEN WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, THE AMERICAN ALLIGATOR, A KIND OF ICONIC EMBLEMATIC CREATURE OF THE LOUISIANA BAYOUS, WHEN I WAS GROWING UP IN LOUISIANA IN THE 1960S, I NEVER SAW AN ALLIGATOR, I NEVER HEARD AN ALLIGATOR ROAR AND BY THE TIME I GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL IN THE LATE 1960S, ALLIGATORS WERE ON THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST.

SO THE STORY JUST GOES ON AND ON AND ON UNTIL FINALLY IN THE 20TH CENTURY WE BEGAN TO COME TO OUR SENSES.

>>LORENE: WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH DAN FLORES ABOUT HIS BOOK, WILD NEW WORLD , AND WE ARE GOING TO SWITCH NOW TO THE LANDMARK PROBABLY THE BEST THING AMERICA HAS EVER DONE SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID.

TALK ABOUT THE MOVEMENT WITH RACHEL CARSON TOWARD THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT AND WHAT CHANGE, HOW DID PEOPLE FIND, WHAT DID THOREAU SAY ABOUT THE DEVASTATION, JUST START THERE.

>>DAN: WELL I HAVE ONE OF MY CHAPTERS IN THE BOOK IS TITLED "TO KNOW AN ENTIRE HEAVEN AND AN ENTIRE EARTH," AND IT IS FROM HENRY DAVID THOREAU'S JOURNAL PASSAGE WRITTEN IN THE YEAR 1856.

AND IT IS ONE OF THE MOST POIGNANT THINGS I HAVE EVER READ, IT REALLY GETS TO ME EVERY TIME I LOOK AT IT.

BECAUSE THOREAU HAD BEEN READING FOR THE PREVIOUS COUPLE OF MONTHS THE ACCOUNTS WRITTEN BY THOSE FIRST EUROPEAN COLONISTS IN NEW ENGLAND, IN PARTICULAR, AND REALIZING THAT HE WAS LIVING IN A WORLD THAT DIDN'T INCLUDE HALF THE CREATURES THAT HIS PREDECESSORS IN NEW ENGLAND WERE DESCRIBING FROM THE 1600S.

AND SO HE SITS DOWN ONE MORNING AND HE WRITES THIS INCREDIBLE JOURNAL ENTRY WHERE HE BASICALLY SAYS, "I TRY TO KNOW THE SEASONS AND THE ROUND OF THE YEAR HERE WHERE I LIVE ONLY TO DISCOVER THAT MOST OF THE GRAND PASSAGES ARE GONE.

MOST OF THE CREATURES THAT I THINK SHOULD BE TELLING ME ABOUT THE NATURAL WORLD IN MASSACHUSETTS DON'T EXIST HERE ANYMORE."

AND HE ENUMERATES ABOUT TEN OR 15 ANIMALS THAT ARE NO LONGER THERE THAT HAD BEEN PRESENT ONLY 200 YEARS BEFORE.

AND HE SAYS, "IT IS LIKE LOOKING UP AT THE STARS AT NIGHT AND REALIZING THAT SOME DEMIGOD HAS COME BEFORE YOU AND PLUCKED FROM THE HEAVENS THE BEST OF THE STARS."

HE SAID, "IT'S LIKE LISTENING TO A SYMPHONY AND REALIZING THERE ARE NO STRINGS, THERE ARE NO WOODWINDS, THERE IS NO PERCUSSION.

ALL THOSE THINGS HAVE BEEN TAKEN OUT BEFORE I GET TO HEAR IT."

AND HIS CONCLUSION UPON SAYING THAT WAS, "I AM THAT CITIZEN WHOM I PITY," BECAUSE AS HE PUT IT AT THE END OF THIS PASSAGE, "I WANT TO KNOW AN ENTIRE HEAVEN AND AN ENTIRE EARTH."

AND HE FELT AS IF HE HAD BEEN CHEATED OF THAT EXPERIENCE BY PEOPLE, SELFISH PREDECESSORS, IN THE WORLD WHO HAD GONE BEFORE HIM.

>>LORENE: YES, THAT IS SO POIGNANT.

I AM THAT PERSON I PITY.

SO SLOWLY, SLOWLY HE DID RAISE OUR CONSCIOUSNESS IN THAT RESPECT, BUT I THINK OF WHAT RACHEL CARSON DID WITH SILENT SPRING .

>>DAN: OH YES, >>LORENE: IN THE 50S.

>>DAN: YES.

>>LORENE: SO THAT CAUSED US TO GET RID OF DDT, WHICH DESTROYED THE EGGSHELLS OF BIRDS, IT WAS WIPING OUT THE BIRDS.

AND THEN THERE WERE OTHER SLOW STEPS, BUT FINALLY IN THE 60S AND 70S REAL PROGRESS WAS MADE, CAN YOU DELINEATE THAT IN BRIEF FOR US.

>>DAN: YES, IN BRIEF, I WOULD SAY THAT SO AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 20TH CENTURY, I MEAN TEDDY ROOSEVELT AND THE PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATION MOVEMENT DID VERY IMPORTANT THINGS BY CREATING THE PUBLIC LAND SYSTEM WHICH GAVE US WILDLIFE HABITAT.

BUT WHAT THEY WERE INTERESTED IN PRIMARILY WERE PERPETUATING ANIMALS THAT YOU COULD HUNT, THEY WERE INTERESTED IN DEER AND ELK AND BEARS AND SO FORTH, NOT ALL THE OTHER CREATURES THAT EXISTED AS PART OF THE NATURAL WEB IN AMERICA JUST THE ONES THAT YOU COULD HUNT.

SO WHAT BEGAN TO HAPPEN TO LEAD TO THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT IN THE 1970S IS THAT IN THE 1930S AMERICANS BEGAN TO REALIZE THAT WE HAD JUST LOST THE EASTERN, A FANTASTIC GROUSE IN THE EAST CALLED THE HEATH HEN, A PRAIRIE CHICKEN.

WE HAD LOST, PROCLAIMED TO BE EXTINCT IVORY BILL WOODPECKERS.

WE HAD DONE A SURVEY AND REALIZED WE ONLY HAD 16 WHOOPING CRANES LEFT IN THE WORLD, THAT OUR LARGEST WATER BIRDS, TRUMPETER SWANS, WERE ON THE VERGE OF DISAPPEARING AND BALD EAGLES, OUR NATIONAL SYMBOL, WERE ON THE VERGE OF DISAPPEARING.

AND SO IN 1940, CONGRESS PASSED THE FIRST ACT TO PROTECT AN AMERICAN ANIMAL THAT WASN'T A HUNTING CREATURE AND THAT WAS THE BALD EAGLE PROTECTION ACT IN 1940.

THAT SORT OF BECAME THE BASIS FOR IN THE 1960S, BEGINNING TO REALIZE THAT WE NEED TO TAKE THAT ACT AND MAKE IT APPLICABLE TO A WIDE VARIETY OF SPECIES AND AT THIS TIME, THE 1960S, RACHEL CARSON HAD PUBLISHED SILENT SPRING , WHICH WAS ONE OF THE GREAT BLOCKBUSTER BOOKS OF AMERICAN HISTORY AND A WAKE-UP CALL FOR MANY OF US WHO LIVED THROUGH THAT PERIOD.

STEWART UDALL WAS SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR AND HARKING BACK TO THE BALD EAGLE ACT, BEGAN TO PUT TOGETHER THE FIRST LIST OF CREATURES THAT WERE THREATENED WITH EXTINCTION, SO THAT BY 1973, 50 YEARS AGO THIS YEAR, CONGRESS PASSED BY A PASSAGE OF 482 VOTES TO 12, BY THE WAY, THIS IS AT A TIME WHEN SAVING THE WORLD WASN'T POLITICAL, THEY PASSED THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT IN 1973, BASED ON THE IDEA THAT SPECIES DESERVED THE RIGHT TO EXIST AND IT WAS OUR HAIL MARY, OUR GREAT ACT THAT SAVED AMERICAN WILDLIFE FOR THOSE OF US WHO WERE COMING ALONG IN THE FUTURE.

>>LORENE: WHO CALLED IT AMERICA'S BEST IDEA, WELL YOU DO, IN THE BOOK, OF COURSE, BUT... >>DAN: WELL I BORROWED THAT PHRASE FROM KEN BURNS' DOCUMENTARY ON NATIONAL PARKS WHICH IS CALLED AMERICA'S BEST IDEA , AND AS I WAS WORKING ON THIS BOOK, IT OCCURRED TO ME THAT MAYBE THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT WAS A PRETTY GOOD COMPETITOR.

>>LORENE: RIGHT, RIGHT.

AND SO WE HAVE BEEN RESTORING NOT ONLY RAPTORS LIKE CONDORS, I MEAN LOOK AT THAT, NOW WE HAVE RELEASED THEM BACK INTO THE WILD.

>>DAN: YES WE HAVE.

>>LORENE: AND EAGLES AND WOLVES AND ALL OF THE SPECIES THAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO PRESERVE BUT THERE WERE SOME OTHER POPULAR CULTURE ELEMENTS.

IN THE 50S, HAND AND GLOVE WITH RACHEKL CARSON, DISNEY STARTED DOING THESE WONDERFUL DOCUMENTARIES, THE LIVING DESERT , YOU KNOW JUST KIND OF GLORIFYING, YOU KNOW, SKUNKS, WHY YOU SHOULD LOVE SKUNKS AND REALLY SHOWING A VERY CHARMING PORTRAIT OF THE WILDLIFE THAT WE HAVE BEEN SORT OF ANTAGONISTIC TO.

>>DAN: THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

I HAVE TO GIVE AND I DO IN THE BOOK, WALT DISNEY CREDIT FOR ESSENTIALLY INVENTING THE NATURE DOCUMENTARIES.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>DAN: AND CONVERTING SO MANY OF US WHO BECAME TELEVISION WATCHERS IN THOSE DECADES INTO LOVERS OF NATURE THROUGH THESE WONDERFUL FILMS THAT HE DID.

>>LORENE: SO ALTHOUGH YOU DO, YOU TRACE EVERY PHASE OF OUR RELATIONSHIP TO ANIMALS, WHAT YOU COME TO AT THE END, FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE TO LEARN TO COEXIST WITH FELLOW CREATURES, THEY HAVE AS MUCH RIGHT TO BE THERE, TOO EXIST AS WE DO.

BUT THE BEAUTIFUL OPTIMISM WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT WE HAVE TO NOT MOURN EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN LOST BUT CELEBRATE WHAT IS LEFT, SO TALK TO US, ENCOURAGE US.

>>DAN: SURE.

I GET TO THE END OF THE BOOK AND THE EPILOGUE, AND OF COURSE, THE SIGNALS ON THE HORIZON ARE PRETTY DARK AND FOREBODING, WE ARE LOSING SPECIES ALL OVER THE WORLD.

AMERICAN IS IN BETTER SHAPE, THE UNITED STATES IS IN BETTER SHAPE THAN MOST COUNTRIES BECAUSE OF THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT.

BUT WE ARE LOSING PROBABLY A QUARTER OF THE SPECIES ON EARTH OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF DECADES AT LEAST THEY ARE CERTAINLY THREATENED WITH EXTINCTION.

WE HAVE LOST 30 PERCENT OF OUR BIRDS IN AMERICA SINCE THE 1970S AND SO ALL THE SIGNS ARE KIND OF GRIM AND I DO, OF COURSE EXPERIENCE THE ANGST AS THOREAU DID, OF KNOWING THAT I AM NEVER REALLY GOING TO GET TO SEE PASSENGER PIGEONS FLIGHTS, I AM NEVER GOING TO SEE OUR NATIVE PARROTS RESTORED, WE HAD A BEAUTIFUL TROPICAL PARROT CALLED THE CAROLINA PARAKEET THAT FINALLY WENT EXTINCT IN THE 1930S AND THOSE WERE IN THE COUNTRY WHERE I GREW UP, IN LOUISIANA.

SO I AM NOT EVER GOING TO GET TO SEE THOSE CREATURES BUT WHAT I CONCLUDE AT THE END OF THE BOOK IS THAT AT LEAST WHAT ONE CAN DO WITH ONE'S LIFE IS TO EXPERIENCE WHAT REMAINS.

SO IN THE LAST TWO AND ONE HALF PAGES OF WILD NEW WORLD , I JUST DO SORT OF A PERSONAL REFLECTION ON THE EXPERIENCES THAT I HAVE HAD WITH ALL THESE MARVELOUS CHARISMATIC ANIMALS INCLUDING DOING THINGS LIKE GOING TO THE ARCTIC NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE AND DOING A TWELVE DAY FLOAT DOWN HULA HULA RIVER THROUGH THE PORCUPINE CARIBOU HERD PURSUED BY WOLVES.

YES, THE WHOLE STORY OF AMERICA IS RIGHT THERE, ORIGINAL AMERICA IS STILL THERE IN THE ARCTIC NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE.

SO I TRY TO TELL THE STORY AT THE END OF THE BOOK THAT WAY.

THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS CERTAINLY BE AWARE OF WHAT WE HAVE DONE SO THAT WE DON'T MAKE THESE KINDS OF MISTAKES IN THE FUTURE, BUT CELEBRATE WHAT WE HAVE LEFT BECAUSE IT'S RICH AND MAGICAL.

>>LORENE: YOU KNOW, I HAVE INTERVIEWED DAHR JAMAIL HIS BOOK, THE END OF ICE BECAUSE HE'S LOOKING AT WHAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS DOING AND HE SAID, "GO TO YOUR FAVORITE PLACES, JUST GO BE THERE, TAKE THEM IN.

YES, OF COURSE, YOU WANT TO STOP DEVELOPMENTS FROM BULLDOZING FORESTS AND CHANGING THE COURSE OF RIVERS, BUT, AS AN INDIVIDUAL MEMBER OF YOUR SPECIES, JUST GO THERE AND LOVE IT AND APPRECIATE IT."

AND YOU ARE SAYING THAT WITH OUR FAVORITE ANIMAL SPECIES, TOO.

>>DAN: EXACTLY SO.

>>LORENE: SAVOR THEM, LOOK HOW COOL THEY ARE.

TIGER, TIGER BURNING BRIGHT, YOU KNOW.

JUST HOW UNIQUE AND MARVELOUS THEY ARE AND CELEBRATE THEM AND THEN TO KNOW THAT WE HAVE ALL AS A SPECIES STUMBLED OVER ALL THESE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES.

JUST TRY TO BE MORE CONSCIOUS OF HOW WHAT WE DO AFFECTS THE OTHER LIFE FORMS.

>>DAN: THE POINT IN SOME WAYS THAT IS STILL THE POINT OF WILD NEW WORLD IS TO CONVEY TO HUMAN READERS THAT THEY, WE, ARE PART OF THE EVOLUTIONARY RIVER JUST LIKE ALL THESE OTHER CREATURES AND SO THEY ARE KIN TO US.

I MEAN THAT WAS THE GREAT NATIVE AMERICAN INSIGHT THAT ALLOWED THEM TO PRESERVE THE BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY OF NORTH AMERICA FOR SO LONG, THAT WE ARE ALL KIN AND KNOWING THAT IS A STEP TOWARDS, I THINK, A NEW RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WILD.

>>LORENE: AND ALSO TO STEP REALLY AWAY FROM THE COMMODIFICATION OF OTHER LIFE FORMS BECAUSE THAT WREAKED HAVOC ON OUR PLANET AND ON OUR CONTINENT FOR SO LONG.

>>DAN: FOR SO LONG AND OF COURSE, IT STILL DOES AROUND THE WORLD IN PLACES LIKE ASIA AND AFRICA, WE'RE STILL DOING THAT AND NORTH AMERICA, FORTUNATELY, WE'VE PRETTY MUCH ENDED THE IDEA OF VIEWING WILD ANIMALS AS COMMODITIES AND A MARKET ECONOMY.

BUT WE DID A LOT OF DAMAGE BEFORE WE FINALLY CAME TO THAT REALIZATION.

>>LORENE: IS THERE ANY WAY THAT WE AS INDIVIDUALS, OF COURSE, IN OUR OWN LIFE WE WANT TO AND AS A NATION WE WANT TO, BUT WE CAN GET SOME OF THESE IDEAS OUT INTERNATIONALLY THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT THERE ARE ENDANGERED SPECIES IN OTHER CONTINENTS THAT ARE GOING TO BE WIPED OUT.

>>DAN: WELL, THERE ARE SORT OF LIKE THE NATIONAL PARKS IDEA HAVE BEEN EMULATED AROUND THE WORLD, THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT HAS BEEN AS WELL.

SO, QUITE A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES, USUALLY FIRST WORLD COUNTRIES, HAVE IMPLEMENTED SOMETHING LIKE AN ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT.

WE HAVE AN INTERNATIONAL ACT AS WELL THAT ESSENTIALLY APPROACHES THE PROTECTION OF WILDLIFE FROM A GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE.

SO THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT DID PRODUCE FRUIT IN THE FORM OF LEGISLATION AROUND THE WORLD, BUT IT STILL REMAINS, AS THE SUPREME COURT CALLED IT, PROBABLY IN 1973, THE GREATEST ACT FOR THE PRESERVATION OF OTHER SPECIES EVER PASSED BY ANY NATION.

>>LORENE: WELL, THANK GOODNESS, THANK GOODNESS.

IT HAS BEEN WONDERFUL.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS DAN FLORES.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS WONDERFUL BOOK, WILD NEW WORLD .

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME AND LEADING US BY THE HAND THROUGH THIS LONG JOURNEY ON OUR CONTINENT AND LEAVING US WITH A DEEP APPRECIATION OF WHAT WE HAVE.

>>DAN: SURE LORENE, MY PLEASURE.

>>LORENE: AND I AM LORENE MILLS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM