From WXXI news.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made when the first data center opened.

By most definitions.

The first one opened in 1945 at the University of Pennsylvania.

Data centers have been around for a long time.

Everyone hearing the sound of my voice has relied on using them.

What's different now is that the artificial intelligence race has prompted an explosion of planning for new and larger data centers.

The growth is unprecedented.

Hundreds of billions of dollars is on the table for the construction of new data centers across this country.

And according to heat map, which tracks these things, roughly $260 billion in data center projects have been canceled or delayed this year alone, largely due to local organizing and opposition.

Which brings us to Seneca Lake.

The Greenwich facility that currently operates on Seneca Lake has been a Bitcoin and crypto mining facility.

The owners have ideas about transforming it into a data center.

A vocal opposition is mobilized, and the local government says they're listening, but they want the public discourse to be grounded in facts.

This hour, a conversation from multiple perspectives and a possible data center on Seneca Lake, and the larger issue of data centers in general.

Let me welcome our guest.

Now, Yvonne Taylor is vice president of Seneca Lake Guardian.

Yvonne, welcome to the program.

Thanks for being with us to be here.

Thanks.

Steve Griffin, the CEO of Finger Lakes Economic Development Council, who is generous enough with his time to join us from Washington.

Thank you.

Steve.

Thanks for being with us.

Thanks for having me.

Jason Leifer is the Dryden town supervisor.

Now, this is not the town where the Seneca Lake proposal is, but Jason recently wrote a piece for Tompkins Weekly about why his town decided on a moratorium for data centers.

Jason, welcome.

Thanks for being with us.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

A little bit of background.

I did reach out to Greenwich Generation, which renamed a Vulcan Infrastructure.

So Greenwich Vulcan, it's the same company I reached out and a representative last week from the company said he would not be able to provide someone for the show, but he was willing to talk to me on background.

But every time I try to nail down a conversation, he went dark.

I was not able to have that conversation, but I did spend a while on the phone yesterday with the supervisor of the town of Tory, Peter Martini.

Tory is the town where the data center project would be located.

And I appreciate the supervisor taking the time to share his thoughts.

Some of what he said was the following.

First of all, he says he doesn't think anything is imminent at that site.

Second, he says a data center would not be all that different from the current operation of a Bitcoin mining facility.

He said that concerns about toxic environmental impacts at that facility are generally incorrect.

And he said that he certainly heard from some angry residents.

He is listening.

He appreciates their concerns, but he says that sometimes their concerns are based on incorrect information.

He says the supervisor says he doesn't know that the vocal opposition is necessarily reflective of the views of the town as a whole.

So it's more of a kind of a middle of the road picture that says he doesn't think anything is imminent.

They're willing to listen, but they're not for a number of reasons.

They're not pursuing a moratorium in the way that Trident did.

So now that we kind of set the scene a little bit there, I want to ask all three of our guests for some opening thoughts, and then we're going to get some very specific questions about what we know about data centers and where all of this is going.

And, Ivan, your group reached out to us a number of times to have this conversation.

I know you're very active on this issue.

I'll give you the floor.

First up from Seneca Lake Guardian.

How do you see this?

Thanks so much.

I, I see this as a, existential threat to the Finger Lakes region overall.

And sadly, with all due respect to supervisor Martini, when he says that there is nothing imminent happening, he might be misinformed.

He may need to look at the Vulcan press releases that are going out, which, say this is an immediate change.

Seneca Lake Pure Waters Association has stated that they're already 30% an artificial intelligence data center.

And it is that it is very different.

The infrastructure is the same.

But what Greenwich is planning to do is not only operate a 106 megawatt power plant to provide power to artificial intelligence and cryptocurrency mining, but they're also now applying to pull 260MW from the grid, which would effectively triple its production and consumption of energy for these two industries.

And when you pull power from the grid to that magnitude, that is a hyperscale artificial intelligence data center that could raise everyone in the region's electricity bills, by magnitudes.

Bloomberg said that hosts of data centers across the country can see electricity bills that increase as much as 267%.

When Mr.

Martini claims that there are no toxic impacts.

Mr.

Martini should really pay attention to the reports that are required by Vulcan to submit, which, you know, clearly lay out the toxins like formaldehyde, toluene, lead and mercury that are coming out of that stack every day.

That facility is in operation and it's raining down on our lake, our homes, our farms and our vineyards, not just in Dresden, but essentially the entire Seneca Lake finger, wine trail.

So those concerns are not incorrect.

We are not, being alarmist.

We are going by what we know based on what Greenwich and Vulcan is saying and these these concerns are felt not just in the town of Torrey, but all throughout the Finger Lakes region.

And anybody who cares about the Finger Lakes.

And it does not provide an enormous amount of jobs or tax revenue either.

In the meeting, minutes from the town of Torrey, they say maybe 25 jobs.

That's about the same as an average McDonald's franchise.

Okay, so let me jump in here and I'll just say the supervisor did tell me that he thinks there's roughly 30 people who've been working there when it's a crypto mining facility.

He thinks it would be roughly the same.

So kind of lines up there with Ivana saying, although there's a lot of talk about if there's new construction under construction jobs, and I want to hand it over to Steve Griffin, CEO of Finger Lakes Economic Development Council, how does the council see the issue of data centers generally?

And this this specific project?

So I think there's in just for clarifications, I mean, it's Finger Lakes Economic Development Center.

I bring it up only because we, we tend to get confused with the regional councils.

And so I don't, I don't want duly noted.

Thank you.

Steve.

Yeah.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

You're welcome.

Overall, the Greenwich slash Vulcan, the Economic Development Center is viewed as a positive project from an economic impact aspect.

It, you know, the the plant's been operating as a power plant since 1937.

I was actually, working at the EDC when, as Greenwich had to shut the facility down and the impact we had to have what that fiscally meant to the municipalities.

I remember meeting with the previous management of the power plant and school districts and municipalities on what was going to happen, because it was generating close to $1 million a year in property tax revenue for all the municipalities in total.

And it it had significant negative impacts from an economic development organization standpoint.

We were saddled with what do we what are we going to do with a shuttered power plant?

You know, covering that much land there.

And and quite honestly, that was back in 2011, I believe, that we were looking at a data center like, what's going to use large that has, significant power capabilities, rail, all that sort of thing.

Now, the rail doesn't come into play necessarily with the, the power, or with a data center.

But it was one of the aspects we were looking at.

So, you know, it does generate now, it generates significant property tax revenues.

Again, the number fluctuates based on the, the pilot we have set up, which has an incentive element to it.

So as the as the power plant has a better revenue year, it actually provides a higher pilot payment.

And it does.

Well, it does only have maybe 25 to 30 jobs.

The salaries are significantly higher than that of the McDonald's franchise.

They average, anywheres up to.

I think the average salary right now is $90,000 a year for those positions.

So it added a, A level of occupation that we didn't have in this community.

So, had it brought a bit of more of the tech sector in that's on top of the power plant element of it.

So, in general, we viewed it as, as a, as a positive for, for the community.

Before I turn to Jason Leifer the Dryden town supervisor again, Dryden has he'll talk in a moment about Dryden's disposition as a Finger Lakes town that does not want data centers.

I want to listen to some of what, the president of the United States said a week ago at the white House when he welcomed tech leaders, and he was asked about some of the growing opposition, especially in rural communities across the country, to data centers.

Let's listen.

And I can say, if I were the mayor of a town or the governor of a state, and I had a chance to get a big plant in an AI plant or a data center, I would absolutely want it because the jobs are enormous and the money paid, the taxes paid are just enormous.

And if you don't take it, you're going to be left behind because there are plenty of places that want it.

So I would say that, maybe it can use a little public relations help, but if I were a governor or mayor, I would want that plant.

Well, the supervisor of Dryden wrote the following for Tompkins weekly quote.

When Dryden was approached by an aggressive out-of-state crypto mining and data processing developer in mid 2024, we had immediate concerns.

As elected leaders, it's our job to protect and advance the priorities and values of our residents.

Our community prides itself on beautiful open farmland, walking trails, community engagement and small town charm.

Crypto mining and data centers didn't seem like a good fit for Dryden, so we enacted an 18 month moratorium in August of 2024 to provide time for research and review.

And the more we learned about this emerging industry, the more this action felt validated.

End quote.

Now, Jason, you know, you're hearing Steve Griffin, you hear, you know, political leaders say this is going to help your tax base.

This is going to help jobs.

And you got to get on board eventually because someone else will get on board.

What do you make of that?

Well, we, you know, I think to be a little bit history on Dryden is so we we went through the same kind of discussion during the years where Hydrofracking was promoted for the same exact reasons.

And what we learned when we banned Hydrofracking, was that the industry has turned over promise under deliver.

And because in the end, there, you know, extractive planning and with the data center, and there's some background noise, but I'm heard you're the supervisor.

You got to tell them to quiet down back home.

You're doing something important.

Now, that's not on my end.

It's kind of weird.

I don't know where it's coming from, but the, The upshot here is, is that we at first and it just.

And since that moratorium, by the way, we did ban data centers as well and crypto mining completely.

And for our town especially, it's not a good fit because what we're looking to add and what we have added since I've been supervisor or businesses that might take up a large footprint, but they offer many more full time jobs that pay well than, a data center ever would.

And they are on the other hand, too, as we have, we're bookended by Cornell University and, Tompkins Cortland Community College.

And, so we have a very education and centered economy, but there are also big tech businesses in our town to, like, encode, a 3D which does 3D printing of like, aerospace parts and things like that.

So we're no stranger to promoting economic development.

And in fact, like, you know, my town's got some of the most public and private investment, probably in the entire region in the last ten years.

So and we are also home to Border Station, which is one of those, you know, the large natural gas pipeline that ends up feeding.

I think, all the way as far east as Massachusetts.

So where we are, we do benefit from big, you know, companies like that in our town as well.

But the thing with data centers, is that the electricity use that, that they would impose on our region would be just too much for us to bear.

And, you know, we've tried to reduce costs for people by allowing large scale solar into our town.

And, you know, about ten years ago was when we approved, about, I believe us, about 30, megawatts of, of solar in our town, department, the Cornell partnered with, solar developer, and there's two large locations and even but even getting that through, was actually quite difficult because of, you know, comments residents had.

And, and these are folks who were all for us banning fracking.

So, you know, when we're looking at economic benefits to counterbalance possible, environmental and other downsides, what we're really looking for is what kind of, long term positive impact a business will have.

And, you know, when, you know, adding a business that might have like, 30 permanent jobs isn't going to solve my volunteer firefighter day problem, because I need a lot more people than that to help them out.

And while some extra tax revenue might be fine, you know, we're you does that property tax boost to offset the amount?

I'm going to, you know, paying my electric bill?

It's probably not, you know, and, and, but, you know, we as I think everybody knows now, Tara Wolf is looking to put one in in the town of Lansing, which is a neighbor, and Lansing is now moving toward a barn as well.

They're in a much different situation than we were, but, just to wrap it up, like we had an applicant come in for a very small crypto facility, it was.

And they never actually did things properly.

But we when that happened, we put the moratorium in, and our planning board originally recommended allowing small scale data centers.

But when we spoke with our attorney about it, we decided to just say no to anything because we didn't want to leave a possible door open.

But the thing about barns is that they are reversible.

This is the thing that I always went to.

Town supervisors or town board members from anywhere else asked me, you can ban something now and and un ban it later.

I guess a business, you know, if they come in and they're really, really interested in, addressing everyone's actual, you know, concerns, you can reverse that bad.

But once something is located in your town, you can't, grandfather, abandon what?

That business and New York law is very, very clear that local municipalities have the power over land use.

Unless the state steps in directly and occupies that field any town, village, city, and can disallow any type of land use they want unless there's some kind of First Amendment argument.

And this is not a case where there's a First Amendment argument at all.

Okay.

So yeah, well, let me just jump in because we got to take our first break of the hour.

It's a very short one.

And when we come back, all three of our guests, I've got direct, very direct questions for based on some of what they've already discussed.

We're talking about a proposed data center that is in process, perhaps, and on Seneca Lake, there's an existing facility has been used for decades in different ways.

It's a power plant.

It's been a bitcoin mining facility in recent years.

And the question now for the town of Toria, a small town in the finger Lakes, is, do you want this to be a data center?

And the broader question, which is why we've got the supervisor from Dryden here, is, will we see more of these proposals and what are towns elsewhere doing?

What is the economic impact, and what is the view of people who work on economic development about these, about these proposals?

So we've got to take this first break right back with them, and we're going to have your questions, comments on data centers coming up, support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Carey, Yola center supporting residents to become active members of the community, from developing life skills to gaining independence.

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Providing audiology, testing and treatment options to help people stay connected to the sounds of everyday life.

More at rhc.org a new documentary takes a critical look at an incredibly wealthy man.

Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk at the heart of it were two companies who had achieved great things technologically, but their stock price was way out of proportion to their actual economic value, and that got me thinking about how we got to where we got here from Musk director Alex Gibney on the next Morning Edition.

From NPR news.

Tomorrow morning at five.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

The email address, as always, is Connections at WXXI.

That org got a couple of emails I'll read in just a moment.

The phone number is 844295 talk.

It's toll free (844) 295-8255.

If you're watching on YouTube, join the chat there in the comments.

Let me go back across the panel.

I'm going to start with a supervisor.

Dryden, two quick questions.

Number one, Alex, a listener, a listener named Alex.

Mr.

supervisor says, how does this conversation you're having not fall within New York State's so-called moratorium on data centers for one year?

Does this follow?

Does that affect either what's happening in Torrey or what could happen in Dryden, or what could happen in Lansing or anywhere else?

That so that that moratorium my understanding of it is, is it stops the state approval process.

It doesn't affect the local municipalities.

I mean, of course, these, companies, you know, have to do certain things with DC and maybe even a public service commission, but that's a separate process entirely from zoning and zoning permitting.

And even when people have to seek variances, those are completely separate.

You could think of it in terms of, like gravel mining, which is, you know, kind of boring compared to this.

But gravel mining is an industry where the operations are regulated by the state, but siting is regulated by local municipalities.

So that would be the similar case here, with data centers, as you know, because they're going to have to get certain permits from state agencies that the towns do not actually have any effect on.

So, so, yeah, it really doesn't stop the ability of a developer to seek the local permits.

And sometimes they have to understand these state permits rely on local permitting as well.

Like when we deal with the border station, even when they get a federal renewal of their permits to run their gas pipeline, they have to certify that they're in compliance with local zoning as part of that process.

Okay.

So in other words, Alex, there's if there's interest in a place these companies are going to keep pursuing that interest and eventually assume that the moratorium lifts and they're all set up locally.

So there's a lot still going on.

But briefly, Mr.

Supervisor, you said that yes.

If it affects your tax base, it could help in the same way that, you know, Peter Martini, the supervisor of Torrey, told me that it used to be 70% of the tax base was the local power plant.

It's not that way anymore, but it certainly helps the town.

But you said in your town the electricity cost would probably be, would offset any tax gains.

So how much more would you pay for electricity, do you think?

I mean, we you know, I mean, we're working off the same reports as everybody else.

So I think it really depends.

I mean, I know asking to put a put a number on that, I don't know that I can put a number on that.

Exactly.

But what I can tell you is that, in New York state right now, the upgrades to a grid are spread.

They are the cost for that are spread across all the ratepayers.

It's not just the industry itself.

And and I can tell you if, if they work the same way that, say the cable companies work, even if they have to pay a regulatory fee directly or some kind of, fee to upgrade infrastructure, that's all coming back on the ratepayers anyway.

Okay.

Later on.

And just to be buried in there, delivery fees or something, I, as you know, like.

Well, I'm in the Nyseg area.

I'm not sure what.

You know, Tory is and but in the Nyseg area, we've already seen our delivery costs for electricity go up probably 10 to 20%.

And, and I get my power from my home from a local solar array.

One of the ones that are, installed and Dryden.

And.

Well, I'm paying less for the generation cost.

Perhaps my delivery costs have skyrocketed so that, whatever savings I was getting from just buying solar, even with the local discount they gave us, it's been wiped off.

Wiped away by that.

Okay, so I would not expect that to get any better when a data center comes in, in the region that then requires grid upgrades to just provide the massive amount of power that they require, which is even above that, like Yvonne said of, crypto mining.

Okay, so Steve, Steve Griffin, CEO of the Finger Lakes Economic Development Center.

So you talked about the possible help to the tax base.

You hear a supervisor saying, yeah, but energy costs are going to offset that.

You hear the supervisor saying it's a couple dozen jobs.

It doesn't have a dramatic impact.

And that they can look at other ways of economic development that aren't something a project this large that has a footprint this large that affects energy costs this way.

What do you make of that, Steve?

I think, you know, there's there's definitely many people similar to the supervisor have been making those same arguments.

I think the the big differentiator here is that this footprint already existed.

So this was a power plant that was producing power to the grid.

That's its primary purpose.

And it had excess capacity.

And so like any company, it took the opportunities to say, alright, we have some we have some availability, we have some excess capacity.

What other revenue opportunities can can we explore with that.

And and the mining came across as part of that.

So they still produce power every single day.

That goes out to the grid.

And I think that's a huge differentiating factor here, is that this was an existing facility already there.

So we didn't we didn't displace anything else that didn't come in place of anything else.

This is going on in addition to what was already there.

And I think that's a that's a real, a real differentiator we did to the supervisors.

We we had other mining operations.

Look at Penn Yan a decade ago and, and we had said no to them because we didn't see the value there at that particular time.

In this case, it was already here.

It was already operating.

It was already going.

So we thought that was a pretty big, pretty big difference.

And so the and the power cost upgrades, you know, I think there's a lot of studies going into that manufacturing.

You're seeing a huge increase in manufacturing that's currently the primary driver of the increase in the, in the grid utilization.

Not to say there's a lot on tap.

There's a lot in the in the process and applications from some of these large hyperscale data centers.

But currently it's manufacturing that growth that's driving that.

And along those lines, you had the state come down and take a lot of power generation off line through different mandates.

And so while they reduce the amount of generation we had going, they then increase the amount of demand by, demanding all electric, the the 100% electric utilization of vehicles and schools and new houses and all that.

And it's let's step back a little bit on that.

But it was a little late.

So they they reduced supply and then juiced up the demand.

And you're seeing a lot of the increase in costs similar to that the increase in electric vehicles.

So it's a large power company comes in and requests anything over.

I think it's ten megawatts of power.

It's got to go in front of nice.

So to take a look at the local impacts.

And then there's cost associated to the developer to make, to pay for whatever those upgrades are.

And then Nyseg or whomever it may be has their own local impacts of what that's going to be.

And those charges get pushed on to, to the developer with those without and with doesn't have to have that goes through without any sort of review by nyseg or or nice.

Always when a person buys the electric vehicle and all of a sudden now there's an additional demand, at their house for, for that electric.

And it's small.

It's small.

It's not it's not the hyperscale size, but you get a whole bunch of them going.

It adds to the overall cost of what we're seeing.

So, you know, 100% we have to figure out a solution going forward.

If these megaprojects come in, not just here but across the country, how are they going to pay for how things supply their power?

And I think in Greenwich's perspective, as it stands today, they're supplying their own power.

And I think that's that's a big difference.

And Steve, just to follow up on that point, some of the points you're making there.

So the supervisor of Tory told me that his own preference is that there's not become a brownfield, that at least something keep operating there, that he is concerned what would happen if the totally shut down.

And so it sounds to me, I was curious to know if you felt like, for example, Supervisor Lifer was making a mistake in Dryden or if you would advise everybody to say yes to data centers, or if you think it is more targeted and site specific, and you just think what's happening in Tory because you have an already existing facility makes more sense.

Yeah.

I mean, I it is it is not up to me to decide what, but a person should learn in their respective communities.

Right.

That's that should be the locals get get that say so.

No, it's definitely not a one size fits all approach whatsoever.

You know, I do think my biggest concern at all with this, with the power plant is the the efforts to try to close them down.

I mean, I'm worried about the loss of the generation, the capabilities of of of Vulcan, the amount of power that we need, the, the the state is out of power.

And to take more and more, power companies off line is is not going to it's not going to fix the system of what's of what's coming here.

So, I align with, the town, the Tory supervisor and that element and that we have the power plant operating now.

It's keeping a, a, a large heavy industrial facility operating, which means there's somebody managing the complex, making sure it's staying within all the state and federal requirements it needs to and producing power for the grid when it calls for, which is every day, so that we can all keep our reliability and our lights on.

So let me turn back to Yvonne Taylor from Seneca Lake Guardian.

And there's a number of things I want to understand about the opposition here.

So, Yvonne, yesterday we had astrophysicist Adam Frank on talking about AI, and he looked at the data center backlash.

And one of the things that he said that I think is really smart, and I think I'm going to remember, is that, yes, there are individual concerns about noise, about possible pollution, about energy costs, about footprints, about all kinds of things.

But he also thinks that separate to that, this data center backlash is a proxy for the public's frustration about being having kind of an AI and tech future imposed upon them very quickly and very disruptive.

And this feels like an outlet to pour into, to say, hey, we have don't feel like we have any power, but maybe we do.

Maybe we can say no here.

We don't want the I feel to you're describing.

Do you think that analysis is correct?

One thing I want to say is not only am I the vice president of Seneca Lake Guardian, but I am the president of the National Coalition Against Cryptocurrency Mining and AI Data Centers.

And we're working in 28 states with communities all across the country who are experiencing the negative impacts of crypto mining and AI data centers.

And I just want to address the fact that the power plant got its permit to reopen as a peaker plant that was only going to operate 6% of the year, to provide power to the public in times of high demand.

Now they're operating closer to 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

And then on top of that, they're asking to pull electricity from the grid.

So they're going to be consuming more power than they are producing.

So how they can can claim that they're an integral part of the power structure that is needed in New York state, is becoming less and less, credible, I should say.

And I think that any economic development center would be extremely shortsighted and irresponsible if they did not do a thoughtful risk versus award analysis of the harms versus the potential benefits.

And in our community, we are in agriculture and tourism related industry that supports 60,000 jobs and brings $4 billion into New York State's economy every year.

So to take one industry with all the harmful impacts to water, clean air, our electricity grid, our electricity rates and our climate, by the way, the permit was denied and that decision was upheld three times in the court of law because this facility was deemed in violation in New York State's climate law, then that is just something that is not a real long term, thoughtful analysis.

And to support something like this is just irresponsible.

So what do you want to happen at that site then?

What do you think should happen in Torrey?

I think step number one is that the town of Torrey does have a legal right to adopt the moratorium.

While it evaluates its zoning regulations and updates its comprehensive plan.

They can't shut the facility down.

But what they can do is say, hang on a second.

This is a new industry coming into our community.

We need to take some time, just take a pause and evaluate the situation before we just go headlong and approve it and allow it to go.

Because you know what?

We're seeing the same thing happen in, Seneca Falls with the state's largest landfill.

It's a very slippery slope to just start embracing an industry without thinking about the potential harms and impacts to the community.

And now we have a facility in Seneca, with Seneca meadows.

That the town and the community is sort of beholden and addicted to the money that, that, that the landfill is, is providing, and they're stuck with it.

And we don't want to see that same slippery slope repeated in the town of Torrey with the Vulcan facility.

Okay.

But I think part of what Steve Griffin is saying is this has been a power plant since 1937, and New York State is going to really struggle to meet its power needs going forward.

And that because it is an existing facility, simply shutting it down.

I don't know if your goal is eventually shut the whole thing down.

That's why I don't feel like I understand.

So should this be a power plant?

Should this be should it be a brownfield, should it shut down?

Should it be, you know, sort of cleaned up and made something else?

What do you think this power plant, has an incredibly damaging environmental record already.

And to resurrect it and keep it operating.

I mean, we've been fighting this power plant since it reopened back in 2017.

So in our opinion, yes, it should shut down because it was it was shut down because the power was not needed.

It was deemed not necessary and it was harming the environment.

So they shut it down.

So now it's open again.

And we're just saying at this point don't go any bigger, okay?

I mean, at the very least, don't start consuming more power than you generate, because then it's it's really impossible for me to get my head around how Vulcan and anybody else that is in support of them can can continue to claim that they're providing much needed power to the grid.

When you know our infrastructure, some people say it is so antiquated that it's being held up by bubblegum and duct tape at this point, and we're going to pull an additional 260 lots megawatts of power from the grid now just to generate power for artificial intelligence machinery.

It's not a good plan.

Okay.

Last thing for you.

If I'm if I can if I can just jump in real quick there, I go ahead.

Go ahead, verify the go ahead.

Clarify that tourism is very important to us.

Agriculture is very important to us.

As equally important to our economy is our manufacturing.

We're our number one jobs.

Are you're looking is is manufacturing.

It's health care.

It's education.

Those are the largest, industries we have in terms of, of employment.

So agriculture is absolutely important.

Tourism is clearly important.

But it's not that's not our sole driving part of of the economy.

And I just want to make sure that that that part gets out there that we, we're aware of of that.

And, and I think we're talking about two different things here.

We're talking about what, Vulcan currently is what they're currently doing versus what could potentially happen, what they're what they have been talking about, in theory izing, but hasn't that hasn't applied for anything just yet.

And I think those are two different, conversations to, to be had.

And I do think this is a, most of this has a backlash against the AI and the crypto mining because there I hadn't heard any any negative feedback about the plant until they started doing announcing they were doing the crypto mining.

That's when that's when people really started getting getting out.

And as we started hearing the vocal concerns.

But Steve, Steve, let me just briefly ask you what what is wrong?

Let's say that most of what we're seeing with data mining, with data centers, most of the backlash to data centers across the country, whether it's in the Finger Lakes or anywhere else, let's just for a moment say, yeah, most of that's actually just related to people who are uncomfortable with AI.

They don't want to see this AI future that's being proposed.

They feel like we're being dragged into it or it's being imposed and they are looking for an outlet.

Psychologically, I think I can understand that.

Can you?

Sure, sure.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think, but I don't think it's going anywhere.

I think the data centers and AI is, is, is front and center in the argument.

But if, if we really want to go and stop the, the spread of of of data centers, I don't know how that happens.

People would have to be willing to give up their social media presence if we couldn't do something like that.

So you'd have to be able to to, you know, financial services are Amazon Web Services.

These are the currently the largest users of data centers currently using now again current application.

Yeah, it's the AI aspect.

That's what that's what's in the in the feed coming at us.

But as it stands right now, you know, it's it's the things that we use every single day that we that we're used to.

I don't I don't know how that goes away.

So I think the bigger question at hand is how do you manage it.

And I think to what supervisor is talking about, you know, I think it's where do we want to see these go?

Is there is there better places for them to go than in others?

Okay.

So I have to take can I jump in and just respond if Yvonne on the other side of this.

But I'm way late for the last break.

It's very short.

You got the floor when we come back, and then I'm going to take some email from listeners as we talk data centers and in particular a proposal on the Finger Lakes, we'll come right back.

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All right, Yvonne Taylor, Seneca Lake Guardian.

Go ahead.

Thank you.

You know, Mr.

Griffin, I really would welcome the opportunity to sit down and meet with you and your team so that we can help educate you.

As you know, we're we're really, you know, well versed in this issue because we working in communities in 28 states across the country.

So I just want to clarify one point that you made, you know, and that is a common error.

So when when people say, well, we all use data, you know, we store things in the cloud we've used.

You're absolutely right.

But these are traditional data centers that we've known and embraced in our community and in our lives for decades.

And nobody's raised an eyebrow about that.

And the reason is, is because the energy consumption and the water consumption of those traditional data centers has remained relatively constant and has not caused an issue.

What we're talking about now is generative AI applications that use much more complex analysis and machinery, and that is much more energy and water consumptive than traditional data centers.

So before we start saying, oh, yeah, but, you know, we've always had this and, you know, you're guilty of using it because you get on Facebook or Instagram and that's a data center.

There are differences, and it's important for the public and people who are making decisions and advocating for this kind of thing to understand those differences.

Steve, you want to respond to that.

Are you there, Steve?

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Sure.

The level of which the servers and the intensity of them.

Yeah, sure.

There's going to be, the AI uses, more power and drives, higher processing and all of that.

But I would say that each of those our social media uses and our streaming services and all of that have, I know, built into all of it.

So it's it's you can't it's getting harder to separate, you know, the what's being used is a and what's not.

And you then I agree.

Yeah.

Things are changing and.

Apologies.

I'm in a, I'm in, of a coffee shop here, and it's getting starting to get busier.

But, you know, I think each of those particular applications that maybe didn't use doesn't use as much power as a pure, just AI or crypto mining, facility.

They're leaning more and more into it.

And within each of those applications are seeing I get more complex within each of those those services.

Yeah.

Can I can I add something here where this comes in with local governments, like my job as a local, as a supervisor as well.

So think about the long arc of the future where the of the where the town is going.

Okay.

And when we talk about any of these things, in just terms of, of the vacuum of like for instance, all your social media uses this or, you know, we have other industries like manufacturing, understand that when you when a town allows a large data center to come in and then use a certain amount of electricity that prevents other types of development because, because every because the way the grid works in certain areas, there's a certain amount of power they can all draw, just over the existing lines and maybe even what's planned out for years.

If that's eaten up by one industry, you don't get the other industries.

Okay.

And utilities, while they are required to provide service where they can, I can tell you in the town of Lansing that when Nyseg wanted to, run more, when there were requests for gas, more natural gas to come to certain businesses, they didn't have the capacity without building more, infrastructure.

And that infrastructure doesn't necessarily go through one single municipality, but when when you use up existing supply, you can't magically create new supply.

So even, you know, when New York State's considering data centers as a whole, remember, there's a large micron facility going in, which is an actual manufacturing facility, is going to provide way more jobs than any data center ever would.

But that's going in in Syracuse area.

That's going to take the toll.

A lot of power on its own from what's available in the state.

So when you add a data center that's going to possibly suck up as much power as that for far fewer beneficiaries, I don't know why it would be a smart planning decision to allow something like that.

If you're thinking of the broader economic, impacts of an industry in in an entire region, like do you want more manufacturing or do you want more, you know, I girlfriends is really very where we're coming out here.

And I think we want manufacturing because we want people to actually, you know, be able to support their families.

We want we want to be able to support our schools, and we want to do that for people who are in New York.

I'm not, I think I don't care what the billionaire in Texas want.

So it's not my job ever.

Okay.

I don't care what they want.

Like what Elon Musk wants isn't necessarily good for Dryden or even a state in New York.

At this point.

I'd argue that anything that guy wants is really not even in the interest of our country at this point.

But you have to think about these things in their total effect on everything because, yeah, yeah, they're trying to basically impose AI on everything.

And yeah, to dismiss the concerns about data centers as people's backlash against AI as a whole.

I think it's condescending because what you're asking people to do at some point is really unemployed themselves for some phantom benefit and some for some check that we're never going to see because the same billionaires who are who are claiming now about universal basic income are also fighting a wealth tax and California supervised all of these things are tied together.

Okay.

So you you cannot think about one individual thing in a vacuum because you're not doing your community or the state as a whole service when you're when you're isolating them into a box.

But supervisor, let me just jump in and then I want Steve to respond.

And then I really want to hear from Yvonne too, on some of what the supervisor of Tory told me about environmental impact.

But just briefly, it was my construction.

It was my sort of analysis that the data center backlash is about a frustration with the AI future, and I would stand by that.

But I actually think that the points you're making are largely pretty astute.

Mr.

Supervisor, when people think about AI girlfriends, when they think in your words, when they think about the changes in society that are happening really fast, that their kids are going to have to deal with, that it may take their jobs away, it may threaten security, and they don't feel like they can control it.

And then they hear people say, well, you know, it's coming whether you like it or not.

It's too bad, right?

It feels like an outlet to say, you know, dammit.

No, sorry.

Right.

This is the one thing I can.

I actually think that there is some, some understandable psychology to.

I don't think that's condescending.

No.

And I think that, you know, when you listen to someone like Larry Ellison of, you know, CEO of Oracle, talk about using data, basically data centers and mass surveillance to control people.

I mean, you have a right to be terrified.

I mean, I grew up in, you know, I was a kid in the 80s here, Ronald Reagan talking about the, you know, secret police in East Germany and Russia and what Larry Ellison wants to do, who, you know, claims to love America is to want to use all of this technology, which is all tied into these data centers, by the way, to control how people behave and whether what they say or not is acceptable.

That's about as un-American as you can get.

So some of this backlash is people finally realizing that we're not talking about just speed cameras.

And, and, you know, like, here's the final scofflaw we're talking about far broader control.

And remember, like, we're also already constantly being surveilled just by all these same companies like Amazon or whatever, to to so they can push ads on us to buy things that whether we need them or not.

Okay.

And so there's a whole lot that goes into this.

And you're trying to see the hand waking up to you, trying to see the whole picture.

So Steve Griffin, what do you make of that.

Yeah.

And yeah, I don't think I was trying to that's what was trying to kind of send me anyone I think, I think I mentioned, I think it's up to each community, each community to figure out where they think it fits or not.

In a lot of places at once.

It, I do think that I'm the chair of the New York State Development Council and where we have a study where we're putting on conducting right now that's trying to look into this deeper and figure out potential solutions to it.

Is, is there ways that data centers can come up wherever they may go?

And I'm you picked a place.

I'm not I'm not saying do right in or Tory.

But is there solutions?

Is there ways to minimize the impact to the the grid and the power or, and, and I'm with the supervisor when it comes to AI jobs, the whole growth jobs and it's AI comes in and bites out a lot of jobs.

What do we do?

So we're all we're all, concerned about it.

We're all looking into it, researching it more.

You know, I think what what we're talking about here in is, is a, the at least from my perspective, from my little microscopic area, you know, an existing plant that has figured out other ways in which to generate some revenue and has is doing so is generating some jobs and, and property tax revenues with it, but from a broader perspective, 100%, I think it's it's front and center in every media outlet you can find, that we you know, that even the, the, companies themselves, the CEOs are saying we need to we need to slow down and take a look at it.

So yeah, I'm not disagreeing with supervisor whatsoever in any of that.

Okay.

I was just specifically talking how much goes into these data centers.

Okay.

Now, Yvonne Taylor, I know there's a community forum coming up next Monday night.

I know you expect a lot of people to be there.

And part of what I think they're going to talk about, our questions about the impact that you've been talking about this hour.

Supervisor Peter Martini of Tory told me the following.

He said if the grid ever calls for it, the company would have to put power into the grid.

He said we would ask that they include closed loop cooling, he says, regarding what their current water usage is as a Bitcoin mining facility, they are under their permit by about 50% for pulling water from Seneca Lake.

He says the allegations that they've been spewing toxic chemicals is really not the case.

And so he wants the public to have at least a clear picture of the current state and how he sees some of the information or misinformation out there.

Go ahead.

Sure.

So let's remember again that this is an out-of-state corporation that is a for profit company, at the expense of our regional community in multiple ways.

Number one, the air emissions.

We are not fabricating the data that is being reported by Greenwich now, Vulcan, in terms of the emissions that it's coming out of its stack.

We have those reports.

They have to report them to the EPA.

So that is not hyperbole.

That is fact from the company.

In terms of water, that is correct.

The plant has been permitted to pull 139 million gallons of water out of Seneca Lake every single day.

Currently they're averaging about 90 million gallons per day, which gives them another 50 million gallons of water that they could start withdrawing out of Seneca Lake per day before, you know, they're they're at their limit with their permit, but then they are also permitted to discharge that water back hot at temperatures up to 108F into a trout stream that goes directly back into Seneca Lake.

And we know that we're already having, problems with harmful algal blooms, which is a toxin to both humans and animals.

And the majority of harmful algal blooms that occur on Seneca Lake happen to happen in the northern or northwestern part of the lake where Greenwich is located.

So people can't drink their water.

They can't pull water from, from the lake when this is happening in front of their homes.

And that is a that is a big concern because warm water is a contributing factor to harmful algal blooms.

The second is noise.

Noise is not only harmful from these facilities to human health, but also to livestock.

Yates County happens to be one of the largest agriculture and farming, producing counties in New York State.

And this infrasound sound is being studied from these facilities.

It goes actually through your walls and into your homes.

People living near by the facility have now had to, purchase air conditioning units and shut their doors and windows at night because they can't, the noise is just too, pervasive.

And so, in fact, let me just jump in because we're going to lose the our what's coming up on Monday night?

The the concerned citizens of Torry have gotten together, both residents and property owners in the area, and they are hosting a forum at Seneca Stag Brewing on, Tuesday, October 13th.

Two and six.

Tuesday.

Tuesday?

Yes.

Go ahead.

Yep.

Tuesday, October 13th, 6:00 Seneca Stag Brewing.

Seneca Lake, pure waters.

It's going to be there.

We will be there.

Supervisor Lee will be there.

Is it?

Live for life.

Live over I forgot it, sorry.

My bad.

So, yes, Jason will be there.

And also concerned residents, will be there.

And we welcome, the Finger Lakes Economic Development Center to be there.

We welcome the town board members to be there.

All right.

Hey, all three of you, Mike emailed to ask do your guests think the local community should have a vote in this?

Yes.

Or got to do this?

Yes or no?

Yvonne Taylor.

Yes.

Okay.

Steve Griffin sure.

Okay.

Jason Leifer, Dryden town supervisor.

Yes, absolutely.

That's what we did.

Okay.

So, I want to thank our guests.

Listen, I know there's some disagreement.

And it's certainly our efforts to try to bring as many voices and perspectives, as these matters move along here.

And I want to thank the supervisor of the town of Dryden, Jason Leifer.

I want to thank Steve Griffin, the CEO, Finger Lakes Economic Development Center, and Yvonne Taylor, vice president of Seneca Lake Guardian, for joining us this hour.

Thank you for joining us.

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